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Acura TSX
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The TSX I've only rode in while a friend test drove an auto. I wouldn't drive it because well...I just detest autos. Very nice ride comfort, great interior, nice lines, solid gas mileage. And dirt cheap. They're selling them in San Diego for 1-2k below MSRP and the cars just came out a few months ago. I should get a call before the weekend regarding a 6 speed tsx. hopefully...
Which reminds me, why would acura discounting all of their cars substantially not hurt resale but Infiniti doing the same would damage resale?
BTW, I plan to keep this car for 5-7 years, so resale becomes less important. At 6-7 years most cars are pretty close to worthless.
Why? Mostly it's for fun. It's for double-clutching. It's the ability to totally control the engine when I'm having fun whipping through canyons, passing people, etc. It's because a manual does not rob an engine of power like every automatic with its torque converter. Finally, six-seven years down the road I will simply plop down for a new clutch and move on after a cheap repair. Some day when SMGs are commonplace I might make the switch because that technology is still a true manual - just without a clutch pedal I actuate. I doubt it though as the repair costs will be sky-high and the payoff - no clutching in traffic - isn't worth it.
The setup on the Acura is just a gimmicky automatic (just like the joke of an auto on the BMW Steptronic and Porsche Tiptronic). It's got a torque converter. One less gear. It's extremely delayed between downshifts and upshifts. And in 6-7 years I'll have to spend insane amounts of money to get the automatic repaired. In fact tranny work on these "automanuals" is super expensive now - several thousand dollars. Wait for 2008 when it'll cost an arm and a leg to replace/repair a tranny on a very old car with all this "technology".
I used to sit on the 405 in rush hour traffic clutch in, clutch out. Back then I really didn't mind. Now I don't care for sitting in bumper to bumper traffic clutch in, clutch out.
That's why they make vanilla and chocolate. Even if I have to pay to have it fixed later. And I do frequently find myself using the steptronic. It does a good job of being a substitute without the pedal.
BTW, I'm not sure why people complain about the size of the G35. It isn't really that much bigger than a TSX. IMO, the slightly larger size is an advantage (safer, better ride, more room, etc).
Now rebates and factory to dealer cash can play on a car's resale. Crazy low interest might hurt. But I think in the end it's the car's reputation that will determine a vehicle's resale. Accords, Civics and Camrys have an amazing resale record yet not one of the group sold for msrp. People believe the vehicle has something quality and they will pay for it. If the TSX or G35 is perceived as quality, then either of them could have high resale.
Perception is reality. Currently the G35 is perceived as a tremendous value. As is the TSX. If that perception holds either car will provide owners with great resale.
I haven't driven the TSX, but my guess is that, like my old Integra, the clutch effort is very light. Personally, I hate having to hold the brake down on autos all the time.
Whatever floats your boat...
The TSX is one of the rare breed where the auto and the manual cost the same out of the gate - I believe the Maxima is the same way. Most manufacturers make you spend extra for automatic. In that instance I'm always apalled when a salesman insists my car will be worth more if I buy it with a tranny I don't like. By their logic, spend $1200 to get a transmission that makes the car unbearable daily, then when you resell the vehicle it'll go for $500-700 more - so you spend $500 to be miserable. I always ask them, "So do you suggest I pay extra for a feature I'll detest and when I resell the car I won't make my money back? Sound financial advice." They usually bristle at that point.
It's old "buy a moonroof" and it'll increase resale and desirability argument. It also adds to the initial cost and no matter what you will lose more than you get back. Plus, there's always someone out there that wants your setup.
If you go to trade in your car, the manual transmission is worth around 2-3000 $ less than a corresponding automatic (not 5-700$ as you stated), in a $20K car. That is massive. Your argument however might hold water in some rare instances, like in case of a super-high performance product like the Subaru WRX STi, where a manual trans might be desirable but those lean to a very narrow section of the buying public. A family car like the G35 or the TSX is a different cup of tea altogether. Basically, a huge chunk of the people looking for a used car, would not even look at a manual transmissioned car and the salesman knows that. That car is going to have to sit for a looooong time at the dealership without being sold. Some rare individuals like yourself (or even myself), who are specifically looking for a manual used car will have to providentially turn up at that dealership and be tempted by a good deal for that car to be sold. The automatics do not have such a baggage to carry. Anyone and everyone looking for a used car will pick up the automatic (again except rare individuals such as yourself!), as long as it is runs well and have no other obvious issues. The manual trans on the other hand, will kill the deal, even if the car is otherwise perfect.
Hell, ask around in your local area for any driving school who teaches driving on a manual car. I guarantee that not a single one will have a manual trans car to teach on.
A manual trans car offers more control to the driver and also reduces drivetrain power losses; but as a used car, it is an unwanted puppy and hence its drastically lower resale.
Later...AH
In certain cars, a manual transmission is an oddity and might be a little more difficult to unload, but I doubt this will be the case with the TSX. In fact, I'd bet that a manual TSX will be easier to sell than an automatic and command approximately the same wholesale price. Right now, manuals are in higher demand as evidenced by dealers doing larger discounts on the automatics.
- Mark
Also, the argument that there is always someone that wants your setup isn't really valid if you are comparing resale value. The more people your car appeals to, the better chance that it will sell quickly, and for more money.
That said, good resale on a car that you don't like isn't much of a bargain.
regards,
kyfdx
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- Mark
If you want another example, price a 2001 Lexus IS300 without leather and sunroof. KBB only shows a difference of $1150, from one with those options. In real life, about $3000 difference, if you could even get a dealer to take it in trade.
The prices on those services are generally good, if the car is as usually equipped, and the miles are average. But, if the options aren't the standard ones, and the miles are extremely high or low, or you have an oddball color, their numbers start to diverge rapidly from reality.
regards,
kyfdx
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kyfdx
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Stop RIGHT there. Who trades in a car? If you're trading in a car you're giving up 1-3k right off the bat!
Or stop in at your local Honda dealer. KBB, NADA, and Edmunds don't sell cars. Only 5% of Accords are sold with sticks. The older a car gets, the less it will matter, and of course a Miata, Boxster or 350Z will be different,
I know firsthand from when I shopped for a used stick and when helping friends that dealerships don't keep them. Why? Because that extra $500 is like manna to them. You know where you find great used sticks? From normal sellers.
but for the typical 4-door sedan, it kills the value.
This is specifically AIMED at the sport sedan crowd. Just like the BMW, IS300 and G35.
If you want another example, price a 2001 Lexus IS300 without leather and sunroof. KBB only shows a difference of $1150, from one with those options. In real life, about $3000 difference, if you could even get a dealer to take it in trade.
Want another example do up Edmunds or NADA using your zip. For my zip in san diego I see a $600 difference between a loaded IS300 with auto and stick. $600 measely dollars.
Sorry but it's beyond illogical to buy any car new sporting costly features you hate on the chance that you'll recoup 75% of that cost 5-7 years down the road. So for 5 years someone should drive a car they detest because a bozo dealer on a shanking of a trade-in will give him $500 extra bucks?
Here's a better idea, buy a car as you want it. Drive it. love it. Then when it comes time to get rid of said car, sell it via autotrader. We're not the select few who like manuals. Others like them too and those same people have a bear of a time finding used sticks on dealer lots.
When dealers tell you it's hard to sell manual used cars they're lying so you'll fill their coffers with another $1200. It's that simple.
1) however, that doesn't make manuals resale value higher.
2) MOST people do trade their cars in.
3)Dealerships will stock anything that sells. If you don't find manual transmission cars there, its because they can't sell them.
4)Even if the TSX is aimed at the sport sedan crowd, Acura only estimates 30% of them will be manuals.
5)My experience is salesman try to move buyers to automatic transmissions because thats what they have on the lot, and if that customer leaves, his chances of selling him a car just about hit zero. $1200 list, $1080 invoice, $1100 added to sales price equals $20 additional dealer profit, equals $6 extra commission to the salesman. Would he lie to make an extra $6? (Okay, bad example..LOL)
I love sticks... You are exactly correct that private owners are the best place to buy them. You can usually get them dirt cheap, once they've been hit with the trade-in number at the dealer.
regards,
kyfdx
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http://www.honda.co.uk/newcars/accord.html
Here is the commercial...
http://home.attbi.com/~bernhard36/honda-ad.html
Terry
Makes such as BMW, and Porsche are even making more automatics. While never being a MT, modern automatics can be a viable solution for those who want excitement and convenience.
IMO the gap between MT/AT resale will grow.
Most people unload their autos around 48m. If properly maintained a modern auto should last well past this amount of time. Large repair costs should not an issue unless your keeping an auto 8 years.
Mark.
Even though "most people" want automatics that's fine because 95% of the available cars will be automatic.
Reselling the 5-speeds should only be a problem if there are more on the used car market than there are buyers looking for them.
I found out a dealer 30 miles from my place has two 6 speed TSXs. I'm driving up there later today to try one on. BTW, another dealer, one without a 6 speed, tried to tell me the 6 speed is a "low production" car with only 3-4k of the total TSXs coming with manual. i chuckled and pointed out Acura is only making 15k TSXs. He hemmed and hawed before agreeing. Man they're such prevaricators! He kept telling me to just come buy and drive the auto as it's "the same thing only no clutch." amazing how low they'll go. Oh and he can "get you a real nice deal on an automatic model." Gee, what salesman ever says, "And I can rake you over the coals if you show up soon."?
Before I continue I'll add a touch of background. I currently drive a Jetta 1.8T (150 hp/155 lb-ft at 1950 rpm) with a 28 mm swaybar. I've been looking at near luxury sedans. Until today the front runner was the G35 6 speed - great power, nice handling, decent interior and exterior matched with rock solid Infiniti reliability and service. Today I had a chance to pilot a 330ci (though I want the 330i) with manual. Sublime handling, extra responsive, liquidy smooth inline 6, perfect exterior and interior. But I don't trust Bimmer reliability, don't like their ubiquity and the 40k msrp (35k euro delivery) is steep.
So on the advice of a friend at work who owns a Boxster S but drives his girlfriend's TSX more often, I decided to scope out a TSX. I'm not an auto guy, so I had to really look around for a 6 speed. Finally, I found one at a dealer 30 miles north. Actually, I found two. Guess these cats are hoarding.
First the colors didn't woo me (one was a light blue, the other silver) so I knew I wouldn't be in danger of an impulse buy. The salesman, as is usual, hoped otherwise. Regardless, I hopped into the driver's seat and pretty quickly found the seating position that felt perfect. In fact of the my leading contenders, the TSX fit very goldilocks style - just right. The wheel filled my hands nicely, the stick waited for me all the time, the pedal modulation felt natural and unlike the 330i my legs weren't cocked to the left.
I motored out of the dealership and instantly sensed a few things. The stick and clutch move so effortlessly that they make the BMW seem a bit grabby and the G35 feels downright truckish in comparison. The suspension absorbed the harsh dip out of the parking lot without a single groan or complaint - this juxtaposed to the rather rough jolt the G35 sent through the chassis quite often. Additionally, unlike the underboost of the 330i and the overboost of the G35, the TSX's parking lot wheel modulation felt just right.
Out on the feeder road away from the car mall I noticed the engine pulled with authority. Sure it didn't rocket like the G35 but it certainly pulled stronger than I'd expect from a 2.4 liter I4. In fact as I hit the real roads for the test I was rather impressed by how swiftly the little Acura's engine put the power down. 80 in 4th gear was not a problem. And the car was still gaining power.
The route the Carlsbad dealers take people on seems to wind around some very nice sweeps, twists, hills and tight turns. It's a great route for really ringing out a sports sedan. On this same course the g35 had really impressed me but at times the rear end seemed to unload quickly on corners that peaked atop hills.
Well the Acura felt pretty firmly planted, though a tad too light, until I hit the first hill with a corner. Then the whole car lifted and the backend, much like the G35, suddenly felt disconnected from the road. I was doing perhaps 75 or 80, so this troubled me a bit.
As the series of turns and twists passed I grew more accustomed to the car's tendency to understeer and wallow in flat tighter corners at double the legal limit. The engine pulled strongly consistently and I seemed to hover between 3rd and 4th most of the time, jumping between 50-85 or so, though I did break into the 90s on one straight away.
The brakes felt pretty solid too, though I can't say positively how the car would react in an emergency situation. They were easier to use smoothly than the G's grabby brakes, but not as reassuring as the 3 series set up.
By the time I returned to the dealer I knew a few things. That inline 4 doesn't pull like any non-turbo 4 I've ever driven. Its power delivery is sensational when matched with the 6 speed. While not explosive, the 4 does instill some major confidence. If I need to get by anyone in a hurry, simply dropping a gear or two will suffice.
The suspension and tire setup can make some rather mundane driving a bit more exciting than is necessary. The car's tendency to plow on tight corners and the suspensions odd way of unloading at the top of twisting hills makes me a tad uneasy - as it did with the G35. The two reminded me of my first car, a scary bad handling 83 EXP. Obviously, I was executing corners at probably 50% faster speeds but that sensation of weightlessness in the back unnerved me. I don't think tire changes can make up for that. I guess I could slow down.
The interior's really, really nice. I love the feel of the dash, center console, doorhandles, shift knob, steering wheel, switches, etc. Everything falls logically to hand and it all feels quality. Definitely a notch above the G35 and probably a whisker off the BMW, though I still like the Teutonic style more.
When one factor's in the price of the car it's a tremendous value. The myriad of features and the quality of the TSX's build match cars costing much more. The engine doesn't feel like a 4 and the tranny's rowing can't be faulted. Snappy shifts come without hesitation and the little four pulls to redline without ever annoying the cabin with intrusive noise (sorry, I'd rather NEVER hear my engines so the G35 and 330i seem cacophonous under hard acceleration).
I'm not totally sold on the FWD or the suspension. I can see living with that engine, though I'm sure I'd crave more power probably much sooner than later. Of course considering the handling, more power would only exacerbate the TSX's inability to corner flatly at high speeds. But for the price and Acura's stupendous long term reliability (something BMW can only dream of offering)...
So the TSX isn't off my list but if it does win the win will probably come via a bang-per-buck style scenario, rather than which car gets me the most excited instantly (330i).
So who does better? A 330i? A Jetta? Before or after the 28mm sway bar? If the Jetta does not have a lowered sport suspension, that means even a resilient long-travel suspension can handle the hilltop corner w/ good adhesion! Interesting point, I've just learned something -- perhaps it's due to the way a soft long spring extend far out to touch down the ground! ;-) Then a suspension engineer better dial in the max extension for this sake! The 330i sedan, except the 1st half of 2001, all got std lowered sport suspension, which I guess is the one you experienced. If you can give us a list of cars that passed(& failed) that "hilltop corner test", I'd be greatly appreciated.
"The suspension absorbed the harsh dip out of the parking lot without a single groan or complaint - this juxtaposed to the rather rough jolt the G35 sent through the chassis quite often....Of course considering the handling, more power would only exacerbate the TSX's inability to corner flatly at high speeds."
Well, at least the beauty of TSX's firm AND long springs is that you don't have to slow down for the dipping driveways like the cheap/shallow(literally) Nissan-style G35. If you're afraid to scrape the chin, just blast off the lot diagonally. It sure feels good that way! Even a softly-sprung std Jetta I test drove did this comfortably & beautifully.
By the way, thanks for the useful report!
The 330i. The Jetta's handling, even with a sway, is still not in the same class as any of the vehicles I'm now looking at now (330i, TSX, G35).
A BMW owning friend last night told me quite simply the TSX is the rational choice, the 330i the emotional. He claims he still lusts after his 540i after years and years of ownership.
It's the old dilemna. What is rational to some is emotional to others. I stopped buying vehicles for absolute necessity. If I bought my current crop for absolute necessity I would have an Ford Excursion and a Hyundia Excel. I don't need a 330i or G35 or even a Honda Accord for my commutation needs. An Excel would have been perfect for me.
However, I'm glad my emotional side took over and got the Bimmer, I would not have been happy with an Excel, even though it is the perfect commuting vehicle. Of course, bottom line, a vehicle not only has to appeal to you, it has to fit in to your overall financial situation.
I've settled on what i want, now it's a matter of extending feelers to see if any dealer can find one as I want it (sports package, moonroof, xenon, manual).
Regardless, for a rational near-luxury car the TSX is top notch. If I weren't a total speed and handling freak I'd have tracked down a graphite 6 speed today.
It's killing me that this car is such a bargain and such a nice car...if only Acura had added that last 10/10ths of performance.
The dealership has free car washes forever, free loaner cars forever, and they carry and install Comptec aftermarket performance parts (which are covered by the factory warranty)...tempting indeed!
I keep thinking about how balanced and well put together the TSX is...and then I drive my '93 Accord EX and re-live most of the driving dynamics of the TSX (minus the acceleration).
The TSX should be the perfect car for me. If only it was as special in real life as it is on paper.
It's either a Saab 9-3 Vector (fiscally responsible compromise), Infiniti G35 (in the middle), or BMW 330i (what I really want) for me.
Later...AH
Go figure.
Also, remeber the old saying you cannot tell "a dog on the Internet ..". A lot of the so called opions expressed here are just thta opinions and do not repreanet facts, much less expert facts. Just take everything you hear on these trheads with a big grain of salt; there are a lot of trolls " 1-2K below MSRP ... autos 2 khigher ...
Hunter, I'm not delirious. I could be dreaming and if I am, for the love of Pete, do not wake me up!. The 330i ZHP is exactly the car I've wanted since well...since 1998 when the new 3 series came out. Sort of the 4 door M3 if you will. Or at least BMW's bridge to the M3 for the poor suckers like me who prefer 4 doors.
I really like the tsx and think its a great looking car inside and out but something about the performance nags at me where as the tl drives better but doesnt have other things.
Later...AH
MT complained about wheel hop during launch, perhaps they revved it a little too hard than they should have to get a good launch. More likely than not, that may have affected the straightline run time.
M
The TSX has a great combination of these attributes which is probably why there is a large demand and short supply of the vehicle. I'm not looking to spend 30k and I want a nice sedan that performs well. I could give a flip about the 0-60 time, but that seems to be the focus of these message boards. I'm quite happy with the performance as measured by my 4 test drives of the vehicle, and I currently drive a TL-S. Am I just a dumb old guy with too much practicality involved in a car buying decision, or do others feel the same way?
I worry about every car when it goes out of warranty. And I've found out the worries are well founded. I would clearly not worry more about the BMW than any of the Japanese or American cars I've owned.
" ...I have driven both the TL and the TSX. I found that the TSX w/auto trans has plenty of power. "
I found the power in the TSX automatic to be lacking. While the 5-speed auto helps, there is not sufficient power. The 6-speed helps but still there is just not enough torque (only 2.4 liters, 1666 ft-lbs) and not enought horsepower (200 HP) for the weight of the car (1/3 of an elephant)