...the waving/flashing lights thing was popular all the way up until the late '80s... At that point, there were just too many of them, and too many non-enthusiast owners..
A friend of mine bought a '79 320i in 1984, and about a week later, she asked me why everyone was flashing their lights at her.. I told her it was because she was cute.. :surprise:
She isn't bad looking I suppose...maybe she is being flirted with by the middle aged guys in their M3s.
A friend dropped by and I mentioned that Superbird to him, so I had to go show it to him as he loves mopars. I looked it over again...they want 120K for it (!!!!!!!). They have a 69 I think Roadrunner which appears to be to a better standard for something like 40K.
This afternoon I spotted a nice white 356, the same black 61 Mercury 4 door HT I see now and then, a 57 Chevy 2 door post, a couple of decent W116s, a really nice first generation Seville, and a black 70s Eldo convertible.
visiting on Long Island (Oceanside/Long beach area) and saw a bunch. Of course, I forget half of them, but here's what comes to mind:
- 65 Mustang GT fastback, looked new. Sounded nice too. On the Belt Parkway. - An early chrome bumper 2002 on the belt - A pair of 69ish Gran Prixs, one jacked up, both ratty. - A '67 Camaro SS (for sale!) very clean looking, but an odd mint/lime green color. - a 1950's vintage IH panel van and an early Willy's Jeepster wagon (like Terry Thomas drove) - a late 60's Caddy COnvert (getting gas of course) - a 68 ish Olds convertible. Very shiny. - A couple of 70ish Stingray converts.
Probably to alert her to the parts falling off her car. The 320i has got to be the most disappointing BMW ever made--as evidenced by the fact that you can buy them today using Monopoly play money.
is that a 442 convertible next to it? How'd that look in person?
My friend just got a 70 W-30 hardtop. It's a nice ride and is automatic with p/w, p/l, auto but no air which is appearently rare. I don't think that too many W-30s came automatic or p/w. It's a nice car. The interior and under the hood look very good. The body looked fine at night, but he thinks there's alot of problems with it.
Yep, that was a 442, I want to say 71 or 72. I forget what they wanted for it, but it looked nicely done. I'd guess they want 40K for it.
Oh, and last night I saw the 'Mamas Family" where Mama goes and buys a car. Funny thing, the car salesman was Fred Willard, who plays the car "doc" in the 1985 movie "Moving Violations", which is probably one of the most underrated movies of the 80s. Anyway, that car lot they assembled was sure full of dogs. Must have been a dreary time on the used car market. The imports I spotted were a Toyota Corona (I think), a Datsun F10, and the real oddity of the lot, A Fiat 128 'familiale' wagon. I imagine not many were imported, and with the classic Fiat ability to rust even in dry climates, and general fall-apart, I bet not more than a couple are on the road in NA today. I liked how that Nova fell apart too...although that noise they had it making when she pulled up really did sound bad. I am sure that neighborhood is in Pasadena around where Back to the Future was shot, too.
They've got a thriving club here in UK, you see the odd one in traffic, and apparently they can now cure the legendary overheating, but its a shame they couldn't do that when it was new. A good proportion of the survivors were converted to Rover V8 or Ford V6 power, but there are still a good number with the 3.0 Triumph V8....
DMC on a side street cutting through to the post office! I haven't seen one of those in a decade. It must live somewhere nearby in our town. He was driving warily like he thought I might go left of center and hit him...
A Delorean owner could DREAM about $20K but if someone offered him $14,000 for his Pebble Beach quality baby, I'd sure take it in a heartbeat. Nobody wants these things.
Ironically, considering it was built in UK, the DeLorean is thought to be a bit of a classic over here based generally on its rarity - it was never sold here, and so there are very few around. I wouldn't imagine its worth big money though. I've only seen a couple of them on the road, although I did get a brochure from the London Motor show where they launched the DM12 for Europe, about a couple of weeks before it all went bust - John Z DeLorean was still a fugitive from UK tax authorities when he died - we couldn't extradite him for that from USA apparently - so he went to his grave owing me and every other taxpayer here about £2.50 each. I figure I was entitled to the brochure...
Even rarity is no guarantee of value...there are plenty of rare worthless cars....the reason being that nobody wanted them the FIRST time....so the Deloreans "rarity" is hardly a compliment...
But you would be the first on your block to own an Irish car, that's true.
Yesterday I spotted a mint/original looking 46 Ford convertible heading east on I-90, fast lane, keeping up with traffic.
I just found this pic, it's an early pic of the MB dealer in Seattle. Cool to see the fintails on the street with the gullwing in the showroom - although of course they weren't new at the same time. I am sure even in the 60s a gullwing was an attention getter.
funny thing is, if you won one million bucks and bought an Enzo, what with current price, sales tax insurance and upkeep, you'd barely be able to swing the deal....
Gee I wonder what it feels like to write a check for $56,000 in sales tax and $60,000 for an engine rebuild?
Great pic! I love stuff like that. Once we were at my grandmothers house looking at pictures and came across one of grandma out in the front yard holding my mom as an infant. Everyone was commenting on what a cute baby my mom was etc etc and all I could say was, "forget that, look at all the cool cars on the road in the background!"
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I used to know a guy who was sure his Dodge Mirada was going to go up up up in value because "they never made to many of em".
I gave up trying to explain the unloved new, unolved old concept to him after the 1000th try. Besides that, 120,000 beat to heck, hacked up examples of even somewhat desirable cars don't warrant much love.
LOL, the Dodge Mirada is actually a car I wouldn't mind having one day! Of course, I understand fully that they're not going up in value anytime soon! There was a high-output version in 1980 that had a copcar 360-4bbl, that might have some minor interest. It was about the closest thing to a musclecar that was still around by that time, as it would be a couple years before Buick would start getting really quick with their turbo V-6, and the downsized Monte SS was still a few years off.
One reason I liked the Mirada is because its styling tended to blur the line between personal luxury coupe and musclecar. But then, Dodges usually did that, with cars like the Magnum XE, and the 60's Chargers.
Did your buddy's Mirada at least have a V-8? The vast majority of them had 318-2bbls that put out 120 hp in 1980, and 130 in 1981-83. However, the Slant Six ended up in some of them, and was down to a paltry 85-90 hp by then.
Oh, wow. When I was about 17 (which would have been in the era of that picture) I answered an ad for a job as lot boy (lot person?) at that dealership. I think that I knew even then that I was dreaming. they blandly said that they were looking for a person with more experience.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Wow, small world indeed. Very cool. And nice they weren't mean to you anyway. I am not sure if you are local, but they still have an MB dealer in that location.
Re: the Mirada...when I was in grade school the mother of a friend of mine had a Mirada CXS - that pearl white color with I believe a burgundy interior, t-tops, factory wheels, etc. Even then when the car was pretty new his family talked about it like it was really special.
In my parking lot at work today, I spotted an MB 280SE (early 70's?). Burgundy with a silver roof and burgundy-colored hubcaps. Looked to be in decent condition.
Re: the Mirada...when I was in grade school the mother of a friend of mine had a Mirada CXS - that pearl white color with I believe a burgundy interior, t-tops, factory wheels, etc.
I came kinda close a couple years ago to buying a 1980 Cordoba LS, which was the cheaper model that had the slicker front-end and the crosshair grille, and looked more Mirada-ish than the upscale Cordoba with the pretentious grille. It looked good in the pics, but when I saw it up close it needed some serious work. And soon after I started emailing back and forth with the guy, the brakes went out on it.
Sometimes I still feel a bit of remorse at not getting it, and I'll see these things occasionally for sale at Carlisle. But, if I had bought that Cordoba chances are I would've passed on my '76 LeMans.
One thing that's kinda interesting is that, even though the '80-83 Cordoba/Mirada were "downsized", they still weren't all that small. 112.7" wheelbase, about 210" long overall, and about 3500 pounds with a V-8. My LeMans is actually a touch smaller! 112" wheelbase, 208" long, but I'd guess around 3800 pounds.
In addition to the whole bankruptcy/orphan scare back then, I think one reason these cars didn't sell is simply because they were so big. Put a Mirada/Cordoba up against something like a T-bird/Cougar or Monte Carlo, and there's a pretty noticeable difference. The Mirada's closer to a 1980 Caprice or Crown Vic in overall size! There were times in history when the public wanted bigger cars, but the 1980 timeframe sure wasn't it!
Cabrios are worth good money, coupes are worth some money, sedans are worth pretty small money. Another car that, like the fintail, looks much more expensive to the non-enthusiast than it really is.
Back when a cousin of mine was really young and had a chain of <$500 beaters, she had an 81 Cordoba. Big on the outside, not so big inside, not terribly reliable. I am pretty sure it was a 318. This would have been in the mid 90s.
Today I spotted a ca. 1939-40 LaSalle sedan in black being followed by a pastel green ca. 1952 Caddy sedan. Both cars were either excellent originals or old restorations with a nice patina. Quite a sight.
The 1960 Edsel has lots of knobs across the instrument panel. That was almost identical to the 1960 Ford. Does anyone know what all the 6 knobs do? I know the middle two's function.
The woodwork in pontons was really over-the-top for a car in that price level. The fintails that replaced it toned it down a lot. I like the upholstery in that car too, one of the very few I have seen with anything close to a stock pattern.
Edsel knobs - hmmm, my dad had a 60 Ford Country Sedan for a few years when I was a teenager (I even did some of my driving lessons in it - but I hated it for that, so big and no power brakes). IIRC that car had a knob for the parking brake release. I know the lights would be a pull knob and the wipers (vacuum in the case of my dad's car) would be a turn knob I think. Could something there also be a choke or a vent opener, or would that be under the dash? Maybe one could be for brightness for the dash lights? I suppose one is a lighter too.
Forgot one might be a choke. I think Dad's 6-cylinder still had a choke that was manual. So Lights, choke, left vent, right vent wipers, lighter might explain all 6. Now I have to watch for a 60s Ford at a cruisein or show to see if that's right!
My Dad had two 1960 Fords, one a sedan and the other a wagon. And, I drove both while in high school, one was even the car I drove to my Senior Prom.
I'd bet the left-most knob is the lights, and one is certainly the manual choke - possibly the one to the right of the lights. Wipers and lighter (maybe, as it may be in the ash tray assy.) . . . I have to do some brainstorming on this one, as I can't remember details items like this back that far, even though I spent a ton of time in both cars.
Parking Brake Release Lights Left Air Right Air Wipers Lighter
Only the 6-cylinder had a manual choke - the V8's had an automatic choke. Since the Edsel photo shown, is a V8 model, it wouldn't have a manual choke. The manual choke may have been to the right of the lighter according to the manual (see below). The manual for the 1960 Ford is a bit incomplete full description of control locations, as the photo of the dash in the manual must be for a V8 as well.
Here's a link to the entire 1960 Ford Owner's Manual:
I had to comment on this one too. I almost bought a 1968 Fiat 124 Sport Coupe in the Summer of 1968. That Fiat engine loved to rev, and it was, of course, a DOHC with a Gilmer timing belt - not a chain. The Spyder was more popular and really a beautiful Pinninfarina design, but I actually liked the coupe better.
I would have said I haven't seen one for ages, but on Friday I passed one in traffic - one of the later ones with the revised grille and it was bright Kermit the Frog green, but it was in good condition and in daily use, apparently.
The Delorean is listed in all my auto books as "Irish", as country of origin, so who am I to argue with the experts?
FIAT 124 COUPE -- very rare and a hot collectible right now....worth MORE than the ragtops, so this car joins a small select group of older serial-production cars (as opposed to cars where they only made a few) where the coupe is worth more than the drop-top:
The VOLGA -- I can't imagine what a piece of crap that Russian car is, but it's probably built with railroad girders underneath...
HISTORICAL PROTEST/OBJECTION -- a '62 Ventura can't be a muscle car in the strict prissy, fussy automotive historian's point of view. "Muscle car" meant a big engine in a compact body, specifically a 389 in a Tempest.
However, one could argue that there were pre GTO "muscle cars"...perhaps a supercharged '57 T-Bird would qualify, something like that. But not a Falcon Futura, since the engine wasn't particularly big. And I don't think there are such things as foreign muscle cars---blasphemy!
is really sad looking. Especially for something that was supposedly garaged most of its life. What did they do, drive it around after a snowstorm, get it nice and salty, and then just park it for 40 years?! Either that or the garage itself where it was stored must be really damp!
My '57 was garaged most of its life, and spent the first 33 years of its life in Pennsylvania. I'm sure their winters aren't as brutal on cars as Michigan, but I know they still make our winters here in the DC area look like a cake walk! Anyway, the first two years of its life it was owned by a traveling salesman, who traded it in on a 1959 Pontiac. Then the second owners bought it and it was their main car until around 1966, when they bought a used '63 Catalina. The wife liked the DeSoto so much that they kept it and decided to become a 2-car family. They would park the DeSoto in a barn. I can't remember if it had a concrete floor or not, but I remember when I looked at it, they did have plywood down underneath it, which I guess might help some with moisture. But for awhile, the DeSoto was their beater car. "Oh, it's raining out, don't take the good car honey, take the DeSoto". And the wife liked the DeSoto's traction; evidently it was better in the snow than their Catalina was, so that didn't bode well for its long-term care.
I don't know at what point they quit driving it regularly. In 1980 the Catalina gave way to a new Century, which they still had when I bought the DeSoto from them. Anyway, mine has the requisite rust around the headlights, but not nearly as bad as that eBay fireflite. I also have a bit of rust around the rear quarters and there's one split in a seam on the trunk floor. I've always kept it garaged in the 16 years I've had it, and would usually only drive it on nice days, so luckily the rust has stayed dormant.
Also, the way the rear on that Fireflite sags really bothers me. I cracked the rear leaf spring on my '57 years ago, and while it sagged a little, it wasn't nearly that bad. So whatever's going on with that eBay fireflite must be much worse. Unless somehow they cracked all 5 leafs? My car only cracked the longest one.
I like that '58 Firedome 4-door hardtop, with the exception of that custom interior. And those dreadful fender skirts.
That '74 Electra's pretty cool too. Kinda interesting to see the base Custom model. Most of the Electras left today seem to be the Limited model. But then again, back in those days, people seemed to overwhelmingly go for the Limited. It's kinda interesting that Buick went through the trouble to change the dash on the LeSabre/Electra for 1975-76. As I recall, I think Pontiac stayed with the same dash for the whole '71-76 run, as did Chevy. I think Olds changed their dash though, perhaps the same time Buick did? The earlier dashes were more cockpit styled, while the later ones were more horizontal. The '75 Buick's dash looked kinda futuristic, with a lot of silver, but the '75 Olds was blockier and much more formal.
I spotted one of these rarely seen coupes. This was the fastback design from the late '70s not the notchback Bertone 1750/2000 GTV based on the mid-60s Alfa Giulietta Sprint.
The white car I saw looked in good driver condition but not concours.
I also spotted a white '62 Chrysler 300H convertible pulling out of a Midas store.
HISTORICAL PROTEST/OBJECTION -- a '62 Ventura can't be a muscle car in the strict prissy, fussy automotive historian's point of view. "Muscle car" meant a big engine in a compact body, specifically a 389 in a Tempest.
But not a Falcon Futura, since the engine wasn't particularly big
Could you get the 271 hp version of the 289 in a Falcon? I'd say that might qualify as a musclecar, at least in the same sense as a Dodge Dart GTS with the 340, or the Chevy Nova SS with the 350 hp 327. I think the '64 GTO just came standard with a 389 4-bbl with 325 hp. And many of those lighter cars with similar hp would probably take it.
Also, someone needs to point out to the prissy historians that a '64 GTO is an intermediate, not a compact (it's actually the size of a '56 Plymouth Fury) and in the strictest sense of the word, a 389 is not a big block. At least, if you compare it to a Chevy, Olds, Buick, Ford, or Mopar bigblock, it's not a bigblock. More of a "medium block" actually, as the same basic engine served duty as anything from the 287.2 of 1955 on up to the 455's. And in later years, a lightweight thin-cast version was foisted on us as the 301 and 265.
For this reason, I don't think Pontiac 455's are as tough as Buick or Olds 455's, which were "true" bigblocks.
I'd say the biggest disctinction between the '64 GTO and the "muscle cars" that came before was that something like a DeSoto Adventurer or 300 Letter Series was the flagship model. It had not only high performance, but luxury to match. And a high pricetag to go along with it. The 300 Letter Series were often priced into Cadillac territory, and DeSoto Adventurers weren't that far behind. However, a '64 GTO was more "muscle for the masses". Another distinction could be that the GTO could be had with a stick. With those older "muscle cars", you were usually forced to take an automatic, although I think you could get a stick with the Dodge D-500, and the 1960 Chrysler 300F. And probably with stuff like the Olds J-2, which was an engine package, and not a specific model.
Cars like the Impala SS409 helped bring muscle to the masses as well, although they were still based on the top-line Chevy, an Impala. Not a Biscayne or Bel Air.
A musclecar is really more marketing than anything else. For instance, a '61 Ventura is really just a Catalina with a dress-up package. However, get one with the tri-carb and a 4-speed, and you have something that will put many musclecars to shame.
A good midsized example here is the 1969 Charger. A Charger could be had with a slant six, which basically gives you a car that looks good but does 0-60 in about 15-16 seconds. Anything BUT a musclecar. However, a Charger with a 440 or Hemi is DEFINITELY a musclecar!
Cars like the Impala SS409 helped bring muscle to the masses as well, although they were still based on the top-line Chevy, an Impala. Not a Biscayne or Bel Air.
Many do not realize that Biscaynes and Bel Airs could be ordered with 396s, 409s and IIRC even 427s. Many of the real performance guys of the day ordered their 409 in a two-door three-post Biscayne for the simple reason that it was lighter and faster than an Impala SS.
I don't recall the Hi-Po 271HP version of the 289 being offered on the Falcon Sprint.
I agree with your point that the Muscle Car thing was primarily about marketing. There are plenty of examples of the marketing guys going over the top. For example in '63 a Nova SS Coupe was offered. Only the Stovebolt Six was offered with either a Powerglide or "Three-on-the-Tree".
Today I saw a fantastic red XKE/E-Type (I dunno how old, but it had the covered lights) roadster, and a white MB 300-Adenauer, the later hardtop style. The MB was unrestored and maybe a notch or two lower in condition than my fintail. It was still pretty cool, and the engine sounded to be in very good order.
Funny thing about those SS "muscle cars"...I've seen a 65 or 66 Impala SS that had the 6. That heavy car with the small engine, and if anything, the added weight of all the SS stuff doesn't say speed to me!
Yeah, that's pretty much been my take on it all the time. There WERE SS-badged cars that were musclecars, with the right engine, but the SS itself was just a trim package. FWIW I'd consider a Biscayne or Bel Air with the right engine a musclecar too, provided it came with the correct engine.
I guess one area it might get tricky though is when what you have is an engine package, and not an entire trim package. For example, while Plymouth, DeSoto, and Chrysler all fielded "muscle cars" in the 50's, Dodge went one further and offered the D-500 and D-501, which was an engine package. They changed it around from year to year but, IIRC, in 1957 the D-500 got you a 325 Hemi with either 285 or 310 hp, while the D-501 got you a 354 Chrysler Hemi with 340 hp. Oddly though, that year if you got a Chrysler with a 354, it was a poly-head engine with either 285 hp (2-bbl) or 295 hp (4-bbl).
Now a D-500/501 is definitely a musclecar engine, but you could get it in any Dodge that year. Even a cheap Coronet 2-door sedan. I think you could even get it in 4-doors and wagons! Oldsmobile was similar with their J-2, which was a 371 set up with 3-2bbl carbs. Standard engine in Oldsmobile that year was a 371 with 277 hp. I'm guessing it was a 2-bbl, becuase that would be kinda low hp for a 4-bbl carb on something that big. Anyway, according to my old car book at least, that engine was standard in ALL Oldsmobiles, from the cheap $2733 Golden 88 2-door sedan on up to the $4217 Ninety Eight convertible. The J-2 was optional across the board, regardless of series or body style. That actually seems kinda risky to me, only offering a 2-bbl for the standard engine and a temperamental tri-carb setup as the only option. Wouldn't that just be asking for customer complaints? Seems to me there should've been a 4-bbl in there somewhere.
Overall though, I'd consider the SS package that Chevy had essentially the same thing as my Dart GT. With the right engine it could be pretty quick, but in and of itself, just a package to make the car look sportier. But as it was, all mine had was a 225-1bbl with 145 hp and a 3-speed Torqueflite, and a 2.76:1 rear end. It looked kinda sporty with its blackout trim and bucket seats...but oddly, a column shift. And the air cleaner top had a big silver shiny decal that said "Charger 225" on it. I thought that was kinda cool, if pretentious.
had a '63 Impala SS409, with the more powerful of the 409's. 4 on the floor. He actually put 6-cylinder badges on the fenders, to mess with people. He also put the air intake from a '62 Dodge on the hood. I guess that was the 60's equivalent of today's fart-cans? :P I have some old pics of it somewhere that I keep meaning to scan in. I keep finding them and then putting them away and forgetting where they are, though.
De-badging a car can be pretty cool. A guy I know who has a C43 debadged it, and as it is lowered and has 18" wheels, the Honda-tuners notice it and challenge him fairly often. As it is a fairly rare car and few other than MB enthusiasts know about it, the boy racers probably never know what hit them.
I saw a 63 Impala 2 door HT today. I am pretty sure it was an SS (in oncoming traffic from a distance) but I don't know about the engine.
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A friend of mine bought a '79 320i in 1984, and about a week later, she asked me why everyone was flashing their lights at her.. I told her it was because she was cute.. :surprise:
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A friend dropped by and I mentioned that Superbird to him, so I had to go show it to him as he loves mopars. I looked it over again...they want 120K for it (!!!!!!!). They have a 69 I think Roadrunner which appears to be to a better standard for something like 40K.
This afternoon I spotted a nice white 356, the same black 61 Mercury 4 door HT I see now and then, a 57 Chevy 2 door post, a couple of decent W116s, a really nice first generation Seville, and a black 70s Eldo convertible.
- 65 Mustang GT fastback, looked new. Sounded nice too. On the Belt Parkway.
- An early chrome bumper 2002 on the belt
- A pair of 69ish Gran Prixs, one jacked up, both ratty.
- A '67 Camaro SS (for sale!) very clean looking, but an odd mint/lime green color.
- a 1950's vintage IH panel van and an early Willy's Jeepster wagon (like Terry Thomas drove)
- a late 60's Caddy COnvert (getting gas of course)
- a 68 ish Olds convertible. Very shiny.
- A couple of 70ish Stingray converts.
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My friend just got a 70 W-30 hardtop. It's a nice ride and is automatic with p/w, p/l, auto but no air which is appearently rare. I don't think that too many W-30s came automatic or p/w. It's a nice car. The interior and under the hood look very good. The body looked fine at night, but he thinks there's alot of problems with it.
Oh, and last night I saw the 'Mamas Family" where Mama goes and buys a car. Funny thing, the car salesman was Fred Willard, who plays the car "doc" in the 1985 movie "Moving Violations", which is probably one of the most underrated movies of the 80s. Anyway, that car lot they assembled was sure full of dogs. Must have been a dreary time on the used car market. The imports I spotted were a Toyota Corona (I think), a Datsun F10, and the real oddity of the lot, A Fiat 128 'familiale' wagon. I imagine not many were imported, and with the classic Fiat ability to rust even in dry climates, and general fall-apart, I bet not more than a couple are on the road in NA today. I liked how that Nova fell apart too...although that noise they had it making when she pulled up really did sound bad. I am sure that neighborhood is in Pasadena around where Back to the Future was shot, too.
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How much are these worth? $0? $100,000?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But you would be the first on your block to own an Irish car, that's true.
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I just found this pic, it's an early pic of the MB dealer in Seattle. Cool to see the fintails on the street with the gullwing in the showroom - although of course they weren't new at the same time. I am sure even in the 60s a gullwing was an attention getter.
Gee I wonder what it feels like to write a check for $56,000 in sales tax and $60,000 for an engine rebuild?
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I gave up trying to explain the unloved new, unolved old concept to him after the 1000th try. Besides that, 120,000 beat to heck, hacked up examples of even somewhat desirable cars don't warrant much love.
One reason I liked the Mirada is because its styling tended to blur the line between personal luxury coupe and musclecar. But then, Dodges usually did that, with cars like the Magnum XE, and the 60's Chargers.
Did your buddy's Mirada at least have a V-8? The vast majority of them had 318-2bbls that put out 120 hp in 1980, and 130 in 1981-83. However, the Slant Six ended up in some of them, and was down to a paltry 85-90 hp by then.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Re: the Mirada...when I was in grade school the mother of a friend of mine had a Mirada CXS - that pearl white color with I believe a burgundy interior, t-tops, factory wheels, etc. Even then when the car was pretty new his family talked about it like it was really special.
I came kinda close a couple years ago to buying a 1980 Cordoba LS, which was the cheaper model that had the slicker front-end and the crosshair grille, and looked more Mirada-ish than the upscale Cordoba with the pretentious grille. It looked good in the pics, but when I saw it up close it needed some serious work. And soon after I started emailing back and forth with the guy, the brakes went out on it.
Sometimes I still feel a bit of remorse at not getting it, and I'll see these things occasionally for sale at Carlisle. But, if I had bought that Cordoba chances are I would've passed on my '76 LeMans.
One thing that's kinda interesting is that, even though the '80-83 Cordoba/Mirada were "downsized", they still weren't all that small. 112.7" wheelbase, about 210" long overall, and about 3500 pounds with a V-8. My LeMans is actually a touch smaller! 112" wheelbase, 208" long, but I'd guess around 3800 pounds.
In addition to the whole bankruptcy/orphan scare back then, I think one reason these cars didn't sell is simply because they were so big. Put a Mirada/Cordoba up against something like a T-bird/Cougar or Monte Carlo, and there's a pretty noticeable difference. The Mirada's closer to a 1980 Caprice or Crown Vic in overall size! There were times in history when the public wanted bigger cars, but the 1980 timeframe sure wasn't it!
Back when a cousin of mine was really young and had a chain of <$500 beaters, she had an 81 Cordoba. Big on the outside, not so big inside, not terribly reliable. I am pretty sure it was a 318. This would have been in the mid 90s.
Well, you won't run into yourself in any car show
Pretty sad, one of the smaller V12 bodies...looks beyond redemption
Could be the best left
This doesn't look too bad
It's really original, but with so many needs
4 door with healthy bidding
Of all the things to survive
I could see Andre in it
Some of those pics leave something to be desired
Alternative to a new 300? They're only so original once
Really in beautiful condition, Buy It Now is optimistic, I'd like a fintail in this condition
Early muscle
Pretend you're Buford T. Justice
The 1960 Edsel has lots of knobs across the instrument panel. That was almost identical to the 1960 Ford. Does anyone know what all the 6 knobs
do? I know the middle two's function.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Edsel knobs - hmmm, my dad had a 60 Ford Country Sedan for a few years when I was a teenager (I even did some of my driving lessons in it - but I hated it for that, so big and no power brakes). IIRC that car had a knob for the parking brake release. I know the lights would be a pull knob and the wipers (vacuum in the case of my dad's car) would be a turn knob I think. Could something there also be a choke or a vent opener, or would that be under the dash? Maybe one could be for brightness for the dash lights? I suppose one is a lighter too.
I'm a sucker for little European coupes..
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2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'd bet the left-most knob is the lights, and one is certainly the manual choke - possibly the one to the right of the lights. Wipers and lighter (maybe, as it may be in the ash tray assy.) . . . I have to do some brainstorming on this one, as I can't remember details items like this back that far, even though I spent a ton of time in both cars.
Me too, I can't remember the last time I saw a Fiat 124 Sport Coupe but they were neat little cars and great to drive.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Ford/1960/pages/60%20ford_page%2010_jpg.htm
From left to right:
Parking Brake Release
Lights
Left Air
Right Air
Wipers
Lighter
Only the 6-cylinder had a manual choke - the V8's had an automatic choke. Since the Edsel photo shown, is a V8 model, it wouldn't have a manual choke. The manual choke may have been to the right of the lighter according to the manual (see below). The manual for the 1960 Ford is a bit incomplete full description of control locations, as the photo of the dash in the manual must be for a V8 as well.
Here's a link to the entire 1960 Ford Owner's Manual:
http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Ford/1960/index.htm
FIAT 124 COUPE -- very rare and a hot collectible right now....worth MORE than the ragtops, so this car joins a small select group of older serial-production cars (as opposed to cars where they only made a few) where the coupe is worth more than the drop-top:
others I can think of are:
1963 Corvette Split Window
Mercedes Gull Wing 300SL
The VOLGA -- I can't imagine what a piece of crap that Russian car is, but it's probably built with railroad girders underneath...
HISTORICAL PROTEST/OBJECTION -- a '62 Ventura can't be a muscle car in the strict prissy, fussy automotive historian's point of view. "Muscle car" meant a big engine in a compact body, specifically a 389 in a Tempest.
However, one could argue that there were pre GTO "muscle cars"...perhaps a supercharged '57 T-Bird would qualify, something like that. But not a Falcon Futura, since the engine wasn't particularly big. And I don't think there are such things as foreign muscle cars---blasphemy!
My '57 was garaged most of its life, and spent the first 33 years of its life in Pennsylvania. I'm sure their winters aren't as brutal on cars as Michigan, but I know they still make our winters here in the DC area look like a cake walk! Anyway, the first two years of its life it was owned by a traveling salesman, who traded it in on a 1959 Pontiac. Then the second owners bought it and it was their main car until around 1966, when they bought a used '63 Catalina. The wife liked the DeSoto so much that they kept it and decided to become a 2-car family. They would park the DeSoto in a barn. I can't remember if it had a concrete floor or not, but I remember when I looked at it, they did have plywood down underneath it, which I guess might help some with moisture. But for awhile, the DeSoto was their beater car. "Oh, it's raining out, don't take the good car honey, take the DeSoto". And the wife liked the DeSoto's traction; evidently it was better in the snow than their Catalina was, so that didn't bode well for its long-term care.
I don't know at what point they quit driving it regularly. In 1980 the Catalina gave way to a new Century, which they still had when I bought the DeSoto from them. Anyway, mine has the requisite rust around the headlights, but not nearly as bad as that eBay fireflite. I also have a bit of rust around the rear quarters and there's one split in a seam on the trunk floor. I've always kept it garaged in the 16 years I've had it, and would usually only drive it on nice days, so luckily the rust has stayed dormant.
Also, the way the rear on that Fireflite sags really bothers me. I cracked the rear leaf spring on my '57 years ago, and while it sagged a little, it wasn't nearly that bad. So whatever's going on with that eBay fireflite must be much worse. Unless somehow they cracked all 5 leafs? My car only cracked the longest one.
I like that '58 Firedome 4-door hardtop, with the exception of that custom interior. And those dreadful fender skirts.
That '74 Electra's pretty cool too. Kinda interesting to see the base Custom model. Most of the Electras left today seem to be the Limited model. But then again, back in those days, people seemed to overwhelmingly go for the Limited. It's kinda interesting that Buick went through the trouble to change the dash on the LeSabre/Electra for 1975-76. As I recall, I think Pontiac stayed with the same dash for the whole '71-76 run, as did Chevy. I think Olds changed their dash though, perhaps the same time Buick did? The earlier dashes were more cockpit styled, while the later ones were more horizontal. The '75 Buick's dash looked kinda futuristic, with a lot of silver, but the '75 Olds was blockier and much more formal.
The white car I saw looked in good driver condition but not concours.
I also spotted a white '62 Chrysler 300H convertible pulling out of a Midas store.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
But not a Falcon Futura, since the engine wasn't particularly big
Could you get the 271 hp version of the 289 in a Falcon? I'd say that might qualify as a musclecar, at least in the same sense as a Dodge Dart GTS with the 340, or the Chevy Nova SS with the 350 hp 327. I think the '64 GTO just came standard with a 389 4-bbl with 325 hp. And many of those lighter cars with similar hp would probably take it.
Also, someone needs to point out to the prissy historians that a '64 GTO is an intermediate, not a compact (it's actually the size of a '56 Plymouth Fury) and in the strictest sense of the word, a 389 is not a big block. At least, if you compare it to a Chevy, Olds, Buick, Ford, or Mopar bigblock, it's not a bigblock. More of a "medium block" actually, as the same basic engine served duty as anything from the 287.2 of 1955 on up to the 455's. And in later years, a lightweight thin-cast version was foisted on us as the 301 and 265.
For this reason, I don't think Pontiac 455's are as tough as Buick or Olds 455's, which were "true" bigblocks.
I'd say the biggest disctinction between the '64 GTO and the "muscle cars" that came before was that something like a DeSoto Adventurer or 300 Letter Series was the flagship model. It had not only high performance, but luxury to match. And a high pricetag to go along with it. The 300 Letter Series were often priced into Cadillac territory, and DeSoto Adventurers weren't that far behind. However, a '64 GTO was more "muscle for the masses". Another distinction could be that the GTO could be had with a stick. With those older "muscle cars", you were usually forced to take an automatic, although I think you could get a stick with the Dodge D-500, and the 1960 Chrysler 300F. And probably with stuff like the Olds J-2, which was an engine package, and not a specific model.
Cars like the Impala SS409 helped bring muscle to the masses as well, although they were still based on the top-line Chevy, an Impala. Not a Biscayne or Bel Air.
A musclecar is really more marketing than anything else. For instance, a '61 Ventura is really just a Catalina with a dress-up package. However, get one with the tri-carb and a 4-speed, and you have something that will put many musclecars to shame.
A good midsized example here is the 1969 Charger. A Charger could be had with a slant six, which basically gives you a car that looks good but does 0-60 in about 15-16 seconds. Anything BUT a musclecar. However, a Charger with a 440 or Hemi is DEFINITELY a musclecar!
Many do not realize that Biscaynes and Bel Airs could be ordered with 396s, 409s and IIRC even 427s. Many of the real performance guys of the day ordered their 409 in a two-door three-post Biscayne for the simple reason that it was lighter and faster than an Impala SS.
I don't recall the Hi-Po 271HP version of the 289 being offered on the Falcon Sprint.
I agree with your point that the Muscle Car thing was primarily about marketing. There are plenty of examples of the marketing guys going over the top. For example in '63 a Nova SS Coupe was offered. Only the Stovebolt Six was offered with either a Powerglide or "Three-on-the-Tree".
Not all SS-badged cars were muscle cars.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Funny thing about those SS "muscle cars"...I've seen a 65 or 66 Impala SS that had the 6. That heavy car with the small engine, and if anything, the added weight of all the SS stuff doesn't say speed to me!
Yeah, that's pretty much been my take on it all the time. There WERE SS-badged cars that were musclecars, with the right engine, but the SS itself was just a trim package. FWIW I'd consider a Biscayne or Bel Air with the right engine a musclecar too, provided it came with the correct engine.
I guess one area it might get tricky though is when what you have is an engine package, and not an entire trim package. For example, while Plymouth, DeSoto, and Chrysler all fielded "muscle cars" in the 50's, Dodge went one further and offered the D-500 and D-501, which was an engine package. They changed it around from year to year but, IIRC, in 1957 the D-500 got you a 325 Hemi with either 285 or 310 hp, while the D-501 got you a 354 Chrysler Hemi with 340 hp. Oddly though, that year if you got a Chrysler with a 354, it was a poly-head engine with either 285 hp (2-bbl) or 295 hp (4-bbl).
Now a D-500/501 is definitely a musclecar engine, but you could get it in any Dodge that year. Even a cheap Coronet 2-door sedan. I think you could even get it in 4-doors and wagons! Oldsmobile was similar with their J-2, which was a 371 set up with 3-2bbl carbs. Standard engine in Oldsmobile that year was a 371 with 277 hp. I'm guessing it was a 2-bbl, becuase that would be kinda low hp for a 4-bbl carb on something that big. Anyway, according to my old car book at least, that engine was standard in ALL Oldsmobiles, from the cheap $2733 Golden 88 2-door sedan on up to the $4217 Ninety Eight convertible. The J-2 was optional across the board, regardless of series or body style. That actually seems kinda risky to me, only offering a 2-bbl for the standard engine and a temperamental tri-carb setup as the only option. Wouldn't that just be asking for customer complaints? Seems to me there should've been a 4-bbl in there somewhere.
Overall though, I'd consider the SS package that Chevy had essentially the same thing as my Dart GT. With the right engine it could be pretty quick, but in and of itself, just a package to make the car look sportier. But as it was, all mine had was a 225-1bbl with 145 hp and a 3-speed Torqueflite, and a 2.76:1 rear end. It looked kinda sporty with its blackout trim and bucket seats...but oddly, a column shift. And the air cleaner top had a big silver shiny decal that said "Charger 225" on it. I thought that was kinda cool, if pretentious.
I saw a 63 Impala 2 door HT today. I am pretty sure it was an SS (in oncoming traffic from a distance) but I don't know about the engine.