Saturn did actually offer many "special editions" but I think they still had to offer more with so much pressure from other makers including mother GM.
I'm sure invoice goes up also but higher incentive offset I guess. It's all a shell game. I just look at the bottom price line on each car when I decide. MSRPs, monthly payments, interest rates and cash backs are all just part of the confusion when buying a car. Our office admin just tried to buy an Accord and had to leave because of all the games the dealer was playing.
Try to find a no-haggle dealer in your area, or use a buying program where prices are pre-set (Costco or Credit Unions have them). That stops the game playing.
In fact, fitzmall.com, locally, has several brands, and that's how I cross-shop real-world values. Their prices take rebates and discounts into account, and even include freight. Guess where I bought my most recent new car?
juice: you in the DC area? I think Fitzmall.com is a great way to buy for the average joe. Of course, we here in the DC area have the greatest buying service there is UBS. For those who don't live in this area, you are right, should utilize their credit union's buying service. But for no haggle, I slightly disagree; Saturns forced you into paying around $900 for profit on their cars for the pleasure of no haggle. For me, that's at least $500 more than I care to pay for profit. Thank goodness for UBS. I can't wait to see the new Maxx, and will utilize UBS for the rest of my car buying life.
I would hardly call the 3800 smooth as silk. I would say the 3.5L is silky. The 3800's achilles heel is the thermoplastic intake manifold. The 3.4L is actually a little smoother due to its 60 degree design. They both get rough at higher rpms. More block rigidity and a lighter weight valvetrain would help.
Don't know about the 3800 in your Impala, but the 3800 I just drove in an 04 Grand Prix was pretty much as smooth as the V6 in the Accord I test drove an hour previous. I think it's a superb power plan in spite of what Honda fans think.
Saturn is different than a no-haggle dealer like Fitzgerald. I did not pay anywhere near MSRP for my Legacy, in fact the final price was $850 below invoice.
Scion will also be no-haggle, but they'll be more like Saturn.
UBS and Auto-by-tel sound good, too.
Does the 3800 produce similar gas mileage, though?
Wow, I'm surprised. I bet the Impala is geared a lot taller. C&D had the Accord hit 60 in just 7 seconds. Those numbers are closer to the supercharged 3.8l.
I haven't sampled one that I can remember. I rented a Venture in Tampa once, but that had the 3.4l. I've driven a Rendezvous, too, didn't seem refined at all. That car is getting a new powerplant though.
ateixeira : The 3.8L has been refined year after year to get to those fuel efficient numbers. The series III just came out in the 2004 Grand Prix. I would like to drive one to see how much better it is than the series II.
wsag26 : Couldn't find any Maxx pictures on your site. It seems to take a long time to load also.
My local Chevy dealer told me that they expect the new Malibu to be out around September. When I asked about the Maxx, I got this glossy stare, like deer eyes in the headlights. The same guy said that the Maxx would be out at the same time. This is the same salesperson who told me that the car would have the 3.4 liter engine. Score one for us; we still know more than the dealers; dealers are so clueless. He also said that the Malibu sedan would have a 4 cylinder engine (the new Cavlier's engine) option as well. When I asked why the Maxx wouldn't, he said that the Maxx would be too heavy.
It's sad, but asking most salespeople at dealerships about cars (not to mention future cars) is not unlike asking the cashier at the big supermarket about the ingredients in Twinkies!
Big difference, though. The primary goal of most sales people is to sell you something TODAY. They have no incentive to sell you something next month or year. This is particularly true since many of them will not even be there next month, much less next year!
Sales people are there to sell, not to distribute information about future cars. And, sadly, most customers don't know or care about the cars they buy, either. For the vast majority of consumers, the most important factors are how much is it a month and what color can I get it in!
The Edmunds Townhall is not representative of the market as a whole. The typical Edmunds poster is a very influential factor in many, many purchasing decisions other than just their own. Still, do not make the mistake of thinking perceptions, attitudes and biases seen here are those of the general market. They aren't.
This is why one does his own research, tests the car with minimal conversation with the sales rep and then buys on-line. 80% of car sales people are morons. I fine Saturn to be the best and Nissan and Mazda to be the worst in terms of pushyness. Of course it depends where you live.
I wish they would have courses like in real estate for people that sell cars. It would certainly help.
While I agree, these vultures are out to make a quick buck, their lack of knowledge of their own cars does not make me want to go back to their dealership either. Throwing out the fact that I'm a research junkie for the moment, and pretending I'm an average Joe, I would think the dealers would want to project an aura of expertise about every facet of their vehicles; that expertise would give me, the average consumer, a sense that I will leave the showroom with the right car for me, with not one option left off my car that I would regret not having because the salesperson knew about the car. I know this is a dream, but the reality will ultimately be ZERO dealerships in America very soon. Instead, buyers will order their car on line and pick them up at a distribution center. I cannot wait for that day to come. Dealers are simply clowns standing in my way of making a purchase.
There is a disincentive for them to talk about future cars, because you might walk out and wait for it. Of course then they have to hope you even come back and don't buy anything else in the interim!
I like no-haggle dealers because you don't have to dicker on price, plus the salesmen are usually paid accoring to customer satisfaction levels, not comission. When they sell more than one brand, even better, they're more level headed.
Using that criteria I've been able to find several very good sales men. They're even more willing to talk about upcoming models when you tell them you already know about what's coming.
Actually, I think Opel (name and all) will come as GM is not adding a nameplate, they are simply importing cars. They should let Saab sell them and hence create a GM - Euro dealership concept.
It's funny, I was reading a freebee car magazine yesterday and they said the Maxx will come with a choice of the 2.2L or the 3.5L. Good reporting!
no kidding, that is heavy for such a small car. I don't like the fact that my AWD Vibe is 3,000 lbs. The brakes don't stop the car the way I am used to. I hope the brakes on the Maxx don't let me down. I'm used to driving roller skates that stop me on a dime.
The Xa actually looks pretty nice, and while it does not have much cargo room, it has as much rear leg room as a Camry. I really like how Toyota made everything standard. I wonder why they feel only the young and hip want things like ABS on their cars (can't find a manual Camry with ABS). End of rant.
When I had my 1950 lb Scirocco I thought my v-6 Taurus was a tank at just under 3,000 lbs. Cars sure have gotten a lot heavier - and I have still yet to drive one as fun as my '80 Scirocco. Talk about tossable - and road feel was amazing with manual steering. I imagine a first gen miata, or MR2 would be about the same (both available with manual steering), but I have not driven either of those.
I bought an '85 (first year) MR2 new. Tremendous fun to drive and yes, even with manual steering the effort was acceptable. A totally impractical car though, and a few times I thought I was history when big trucks threatened me. Not a particularly secure-feeling car; I'd hate to think what an accident would have done. Unfortunately mine had little of the legendary Toyota quality: rattles in and under the dash, exhaust leaks, disposable stereos, window regulator failure, throwout bearing failure, premature rusting, and I almost lost the engine after seals let go and allowed coolant into the head. All that in 4 years and about 35,000 miles.
He, he, he,....sorry, I refuse to get pregnant before I buy the maxx. I sure hope it goes on sale in September and NOT January. Geez, how long does GM think my Ford 626 can hold out???
I still think the Signum blows the Maxx away in terms of style. I'm trying to move out of the country, so maybe wherever I live I'll see more of these.
The Signum is SOOOO much better styled than the Maxx. Why didn't they just bring the Signum over instead? Why does GM always insist on messing the cars up when bringing them in, rather than just bringing them in as is?
I figure its purely accountable to all the clueless product planners and managers that have been engrained in GM culture for so long. They just don't know any better and can't get a pulse on what the public really prefers.
Vectra / Signum fans, there is word that GM may bring the Opels to NA and sell them in Saab dealers. So you may get your chance.
Actually, if positioned and advertised right, Opel could survive anew in the US as the 'reliable Volkswagen alternative' to those who want a Euro type decent priced car.
I don't recall anything that ugly on the Taurus (unless it was on a European version). I think those lights are on one of the current Cadillacs however (yuck)
Frankly, the Signum looks like a stretched version of the 4 door VW Golf. On the other hand, I think that the Maxx looks like a 5 door Ford Escort so what do I know.
The reality is that while GM seems to have some bodies who know how to style a truck they still wouldn't know a stylish car if it bit them on the leg. The Saturn Ion?, the Malibu sedan, the new Grand Prix? I saw the Maxx at the New York show and about the best can say for it is that it isn't horrible.
I actually like the Maxx better than the Signum but the Opel wins in the sedan looks. While I may be tempted by a Maxx, the Equinox also looks very promising, maybe more so. I'm just a little worried about the gas mileage on a V6 SUV.
Yeah, I know what you mean about the gas mileage. I'm concerned about the 6 cyl in the Maxx. Well, I almost didn't make it to the Maxx anyway; a deer took out my 626. Repairable, but the booger did a lot of damage. Now I get to drive a Neon for a few weeks.
maxx : The Maxx will have similar mileage to any V6 midsize sedan GM makes. It will get 20-21 city and 31-33 highway. Hopefully they will add the DOD in 05 to boost that up 10-15%.
ateixeira : Actually all the V6 VUEs go to the 3.5L next year. The thing should be a rocket. That said, mileage will fall.
Comments
Saturn broke their tradition and started rebates last year. That was the one thing that they had to stand out. Big mistake, I thought.
They could even have just repackaged the cars, offered more standard features for the same price, or something.
-juice
I'm sure invoice goes up also but higher incentive offset I guess. It's all a shell game. I just look at the bottom price line on each car when I decide. MSRPs, monthly payments, interest rates and cash backs are all just part of the confusion when buying a car. Our office admin just tried to buy an Accord and had to leave because of all the games the dealer was playing.
In fact, fitzmall.com, locally, has several brands, and that's how I cross-shop real-world values. Their prices take rebates and discounts into account, and even include freight. Guess where I bought my most recent new car?
-juice
The 3800's achilles heel is the thermoplastic intake manifold.
The 3.4L is actually a little smoother due to its 60 degree design.
They both get rough at higher rpms. More block rigidity and a lighter weight valvetrain would help.
Scion will also be no-haggle, but they'll be more like Saturn.
UBS and Auto-by-tel sound good, too.
Does the 3800 produce similar gas mileage, though?
-juice
Impala 21/32
I haven't sampled one that I can remember. I rented a Venture in Tampa once, but that had the 3.4l. I've driven a Rendezvous, too, didn't seem refined at all. That car is getting a new powerplant though.
-juice
where they have a whole document on the new Malibu Maxx for May. Or check out this picture of the new Maxx:
wsag26 : Couldn't find any Maxx pictures on your site. It seems to take a long time to load also.
Big difference, though. The primary goal of most sales people is to sell you something TODAY. They have no incentive to sell you something next month or year. This is particularly true since many of them will not even be there next month, much less next year!
Sales people are there to sell, not to distribute information about future cars. And, sadly, most customers don't know or care about the cars they buy, either. For the vast majority of consumers, the most important factors are how much is it a month and what color can I get it in!
The Edmunds Townhall is not representative of the market as a whole. The typical Edmunds poster is a very influential factor in many, many purchasing decisions other than just their own. Still, do not make the mistake of thinking perceptions, attitudes and biases seen here are those of the general market. They aren't.
I wish they would have courses like in real estate for people that sell cars. It would certainly help.
I like no-haggle dealers because you don't have to dicker on price, plus the salesmen are usually paid accoring to customer satisfaction levels, not comission. When they sell more than one brand, even better, they're more level headed.
Using that criteria I've been able to find several very good sales men. They're even more willing to talk about upcoming models when you tell them you already know about what's coming.
-juice
But yeah, we could get a clone using that chassis.
-juice
It's funny, I was reading a freebee car magazine yesterday and they said the Maxx will come with a choice of the 2.2L or the 3.5L. Good reporting!
With the GTO, they changed the Holden badge. I just don't get it.
-juice
Then again, at 3400 pounds, I probably would have to do the Fred Flinstone thing to get it up hills.
The interior is cheap, and it's a box, but it's dirt cheap.
-juice
When I had my 1950 lb Scirocco I thought my v-6 Taurus was a tank at just under 3,000 lbs. Cars sure have gotten a lot heavier - and I have still yet to drive one as fun as my '80 Scirocco. Talk about tossable - and road feel was amazing with manual steering. I imagine a first gen miata, or MR2 would be about the same (both available with manual steering), but I have not driven either of those.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0305/11/b01-160665.htm
It says in passing that the Malibu Maxx goes on sale in January!
http://www.nctd.com/sneakpreview.cfm?ReviewID=32
I still think the Signum blows the Maxx away in terms of style. I'm trying to move out of the country, so maybe wherever I live I'll see more of these.
I figure its purely accountable to all the clueless product planners and managers that have been engrained in GM culture for so long. They just don't know any better and can't get a pulse on what the public really prefers.
Vectra / Signum fans, there is word that GM may bring the Opels to NA and sell them in Saab dealers. So you may get your chance.
Actually, if positioned and advertised right, Opel could survive anew in the US as the 'reliable Volkswagen alternative' to those who want a Euro type decent priced car.
The reality is that while GM seems to have some bodies who know how to style a truck they still wouldn't know a stylish car if it bit them on the leg. The Saturn Ion?, the Malibu sedan, the new Grand Prix? I saw the Maxx at the New York show and about the best can say for it is that it isn't horrible.
My choice in GM wheels? 05 Equinox.
-juice
ateixeira : Actually all the V6 VUEs go to the 3.5L next year. The thing should be a rocket. That said, mileage will fall.
The whole class is getting more and more interesting. I do think some people will cross shop the Maxx with these.
-juice