Hybrid vs Diesel

daysailer · March 2003

if a Prius driver would notice. ;-)

8u6hfd · March 2003

Hmmm...who won production class of the SCCA Pro-Rally? It wasn't a 180 bhp Toyota Celica GTS....it was a 90 bhp Golf TDI.

Performance? If you go in the Vortex, whenever someone posts a "which should I get: 2.0L or TDI?", the TDI wins considerably over the 2.0L. Cornering, braking, skidpad....since they have the same suspension, tires, and brakes....they perform virtually the same.

VW Cup Racing series....the TDI was a late entry (thus no points), and its presence was felt by the second race, by placing track records, winning, or placing in the top five. One of the races it won, second place was 14 seconds behind!!!

I think I mentioned it before...there is a Prius rally car that competes in a level below WRC.

boaz47 · March 2003

in SCCA solo, called stock, for just about everything. (in round one of the SCCA pro Rally there isn't TDI in the first 23 places and I didn't see one listed in the snow drift rally even under DNF. But racing is not a diesels main task so not much is expected. I have even heard of a Insight running. Doesn't make it fast and doesn't make it something we see on speed. Trying to make a case for a "quick" TDI is fruitless. They are at best handicapped and both of us know it. Remember many have admitted the 0-60 isn't important to diesel and hybrid owners. That is fine with me and I have no problem with the slow and steady people that place fuel economy above performance. But as might be pointed out for the price of a TDI you can get a gas powered car with a bunch more ponies and much better handling also. Pick up a car and driver turn to the back and look at 0-60 times for different cars. Look at the cars you can get for 18 to 20K and tell me that a 90hp TDI has performance features that puts them at the top of the list. During the summer I go to the 1/8 mile drags here locally and I don't see a lot of Quick VW TDI burning up the track. That may not be a indication of much but it should point out that the diesels and hybrids are favored by a whole different group. People may and most likely do run their little diesels. Diesels more than likely will last a long time. In the areas we can measure on paper it is pretty clear that diesels have a handicap. Remember I said I could see myself getting one if they cleared up that little problem of dirtyness the ones we now have produce. And while I agree they are better than a hybrid in performance they are way down compared to what we can get for the same price in a gas powered car. Pride in an oil burner is one thing but comparing them to a Civic Si, Focus SVT, Sentra SE-R and saying the word performance in the same breath is like spitting in the wind. Placing them in there with an Echo is closer and quite all right for their intended purpose. All I have been saying is that many of the enthusiasts in these forums look at performance more highly than ones that advocate diesels and hybrids. Just look at what they buy.

8u6hfd · March 2003

The Rally TDI didn't compete this year due to funding issues.

Although it is not the case in the US, but in Europe, the GTI with 150 bhp TDI PD, suprise, suprise, has standstill acceleration times equaling the GTI 1.8T. In-gear acceleration times, the TDI PD blows it out of the water, though equalling the VR6, all while getting over 40 mpg. source form this is VW Driver Magazine (UK)

The performance of diesels have come a long way...that there is a AMG C-class diesel (common rail)

daysailer · March 2003

with "in-gear" acceleration? Do drivers not know what that little stick thingy on the tunnel is for?

8u6hfd · March 2003

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/driven/driven_story.php?id=15693

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/driven/driven_story.php?id=31390

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/driven/driven_story.php?id=22700&amp- ;rel

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/driven/driven_story.php?id=25590&amp- ;rel

8u6hfd · March 2003

just think of it as another metric people measure performance with.

boaz47 · March 2003

because they drive by seat of the pants and numbers mean very little it is a feel thing. I found the same thing with BMW owners when I was riding bikes. Top gear roll on tests were a favorite pastime when we were going to some bike rally. Even my old 850 Yamaha Tripple could out pull a BMW R-100 and if we dropped down a gear it was like warp drive. Most often when we have a favorite vehicle we like it for what it does best and some cars pull top gear well enough so you don't have to shift when hitting the gas. I understand it. Just am not as impressed with it as some are.

daysailer · March 2003

it is about as relevant to a car's performance as the speed of its power antenna.

andys120 · March 2003

with turbo diesels and the proliferation of diesel models by VW-Audi, BMW, Mercedes and other builders of fast cars only a fool would dismiss out of hand the possibility of very satisfying
performance cars with diesel power.

I imagine they'll feel more like the torquey muscle cars of yore than high revving Alfas and Porsches.

Having owned high rpm sportscars (Fiat 124) and torquey muscle cars (GTO) I can tell you they're both fun to drive in their own ways.

I also believe high performance hybrids will be just around the corner (Acura DNX nee Honda Dualnote).

IMO this will be very interesting and way fun. Take that OPEC!

8u6hfd · March 2003

Also keep in mind, how do they (magazines reviews) get these times? They literally beat the [non-permissible content removed] out of it to get the quickest times. For most magazines, they are loaner cars from the automotive companies....When the testing is done, they give the car back.

If I had that kind of convenience....I'd be doing clutch drops (some cars...you slip the clutch while giving it full power) all the time also....but a clutch replacement job is expensive (also factor in machining or replacing the flywheel).

Automatic? Brake torque it. Again it does no favors for the transmission.

Do these launching techniques replicate real-world conditions? Not exactly, unless you have money to burn on replacing your drivetrain frequently.

daysailer · March 2003

your comparison may be quite apt. But "torquey muscle cars" never appealed to me either.

daysailer · March 2003

If you expect to replicate the test data, abuse may be necessary. But since they abuse all of the test cars, the tests are nevertheless an indicator of RELATIVE performance.

boaz47 · March 2003

at least they can never accuse you of being inconsistent. Small, simple, manual equals daysailer. Believe it or not, I can respect that.

8u6hfd · March 2003

WHich is why you can't say this acceleration test is more important than that acceleration test. That's why you can't judge a car's acceleration capabilities on the 0-60 and 1/4 mile alone.

For example, some magazines document the 5-60 mph test, which the times are usually slower than the 0-60 test. This is because they can't do a clutch drop to get the quickest time. There are some that argue that this test replicates what you will find in the real world.

daysailer · March 2003

of actual use. But unless that data is available for all cars that one wishes to compare, it is of little value. Nor would it be useful if it were indicative similar "gentleness" throught the testing organizations methods. The objective is to determine the performance limits of the vehicle, not of the average driver.

8u6hfd · March 2003

Which...agreed earlier, no one test is the absolute indication of the performance of a vehicle. It's why we take into account the different types of tests available to give us the indication of performance.

boaz47 · March 2003

You have to have something to measure against other than feeling. 0-60 is the standard most of us have access to. 1/4 mile have been a standard for about as long as automotive magazines have been testing cars. Skid pad, slalom, even track times can be used. In the first two diesels don't do well. They do much better in the latter three but still have to struggle to best even an average gas powered car. Hybrids suck in almost all performance categories except fuel mileage. They do seem to give a good seat of the pants feeling if some hybrid owners are to be believed. They do not do nearly as well in the real world however performance wise.

john1701a · March 2003

>> They do seem to give a good seat of the pants feeling
>> if some hybrid owners are to be believed.

"Smooooooooooth" is the comment I routinely use. You can't feel anything when accelerating.

>> They do not do nearly as well in the real world
>> however performance wise.

Where did you get that information?

And that's an awfully vague statement. What particular numbers are you referring to?

JOHN http://john1701a.com

daysailer · March 2003

>>Smooooooooooth" is the comment I routinely use.
>>You can't feel anything when accelerating.

Now THAT is more consistent with the test data, and about what I would expect.

8u6hfd · March 2003

You have to have something to measure against other than feeling. 0-60 is the standard most of us have access to. 1/4 mile have been a standard for about as long as automotive magazines have been testing cars. Skid pad, slalom, even track times can be used. In the first two diesels don't do well.

I will agree, except, you're making a generalization that ALL diesels will do horribly in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile. While this is true for what is available in the United States. In Europe, as pointed out earlier, the gap is closing, or is minimal.

So you can make a generalization for diesels offered in the US, but not in Europe.

If you just tacked this on "diesels offered in the US" it is a correct statement

daysailer · March 2003

>>If you just tacked this on "diesels offered in
>>the US" it is a correct statement

I thought that WAS the context of this discussion, in particular, the VW TDI.

8u6hfd · March 2003

We got people from Europe also....as the diesel versus gas prices in Europe was brought into play as well.

The real context of this discussion is Hybrids versus Diesels.

boaz47 · March 2003

Diesels offered in the US are not up to the standard of performance we have become accustomed to. And Diesels offered in Europe are not going to be offered where I live for at least another four years. And there is that little niggling problem of Particulents. But if they worked that out who knows.

John, once again, specifics? Prius does 0-60 in something just shy of 13 seconds, slower than a SUV, Vw Eurovan and just about everything else I can think of. Prius stop in 137 feet. For a small car this is somewhat disturbing considering that some full sized SUV stop in less distance and they weigh a who lot more. Slalom times for the Prius are a tick above the Eurovan and by no means is a mini van known for handling. So yes, they get good mileage. No they do not perform to most of our standards. At least once a diesel gets moving it can corner with the best of them. And no changing tires doesn't solve the problem because the gas guys can change tires also. Today hybrids are dogs that serve a purpose, tomorrow who knows? And unless they do better in the market place real soon who cares? And no one believes for a second that Toyota is holding sales down for "any" reason. Wishing doesn't make it so.

john1701a · March 2003

Same old over-generalized & vague reply...

I'm simply not interested in providing supportive details again.

Remaining status quo doesn't solve problems. Something needs to be done to improve traditional vehicles.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

daysailer · March 2003

repeat after me:

1. data provided by the automotive press or any recognized testing organization is, by definition, generalized and vague (and probably biased) and should not be introduced into any intelligent discussion.

2 "data" or other anecdotes provided by a Toyota owner are specific, accurate, irrefutable, and will become the basis of automotive design for decades to come. That may also apply to comments by those who have driven, seen, or heard of the Prius, so long as they are glowingly favorable.

8u6hfd · March 2003

So what's the capability of the Prius and E85?

john1701a · March 2003

>> So what's the capability of the Prius and E85?

E85, which is commonly available in Minnesota yet very few ever actually buy it despite owning a FFV, will not work in a Prius.

Blends up to 10% ethanol is what can be used. And that's exactly what I put in the tank. Except the gas here is not only E10, it's also low-sulfur.

And yes, low-sulfur diesel is available too.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

boaz47 · March 2003

I know. I don't know why I forget that those glossy pamphlets in the dealerships are the gospel. Why would I rely on skid pad numbers, slalom numbers, stopping distance numbers, 0-60 numbers, or 1/4 mile numbers? Maybe John can tell us. What does the Prius do in the 1/4? How fast is it to 60? How long does it take to stop from 60 in a panic stop? How well does it do on the skid pad? Can it keep up with cars thousands less in the Slalom? Maybe it is faster than a P-5? How about quicker than a Focus? Civic si? Sentra SE-R? Is it quicker than a Excursion? Pick one and let us know.

8u6hfd · March 2003

The other question is (addressed earlier), do they Hybrid owners really care? They purchased the Hybrid for a specific reason....FUEL ECONOMY.

Any Civic Hybrid owners want to add their 2 cents?

boaz47 · March 2003

I never said they didn't get good fuel mileage. I never even said they weren't enviromentaly clean, hybrids, not diesels. I said for the average enthusiast and the majority of American consumers diesels are about as popular as kissing you sister. Well unless you are from some parts of the south then it is less popular than kissing your sister. They do not have to care about performance, that is not the point, many enthusiasts, the majority, seem to care. Hence only a few Hybrids are sold every year, about 17 or 18k Prius were sold last year, and about 10 percent of the vehicles sold to the general public were diesels. Someone cares.

8u6hfd · March 2003

They don't care if a MP5 can outcorner them. They don't care if an Echo an out-accelerate them.

They don't care about most performance metrics, as they already accept that it's not that great. It's not high on the list.

The hybrids target a different market than performance enthuiast.

Let's say for me...if I wasn't commuting 100 miles a day, I would have easily gotten my 2nd choice car...WRX wagon.

Maybe you don't have the same priorities as the target market of hybrids...it doesn't mean a bad thing.

http://www.solarhouse.com/
Bill Lord drives a New Beetle TDI, on Biodiesel.
His wife Debbie drives a Toyota Prius....they weren't looking for a car that an dissect a mountain road very well.

There's also performance enthuiasts who need a commuter car.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=581214
The movie in that thread is humorous....Golf TDI/S4 owner versus Insight/S2000 owner.

On a WRX forum I moderate, I recently got asked a question about the TDIs from a WRX owner, whose job situation changed where he now needs another car for commuting only (WRX is the weekend warrior car)

boaz47 · March 2003

that they have to have a reason to sacrifice just about every other enthusiasts measurement, for fuel mileage? On that we can once again agree. their needs are different than most peoples and so they buy a car or vehicle most people aren't interested in. Doesn't make them bad but it makes them different enough that most in this country aren't showing interest. In Edmunds and just about every place you can look in the same thing is said time after time. "More expensive than most small sedans and wagons, tight rear-seat leg room." So the consumer is asked to pay more for less. In our country that translates to better fuel mileage that may or may not be recovered in the life of the vehicle and fewer places to fuel it up. All this brings me back to may first statement. In these forums it is hard to get people all excited by Diesels and Hybrids because most enthusiasts are looking for something more than fuel mileage.

john1701a · March 2003

>> In these forums it is hard to get people all excited
>> by Diesels and Hybrids because most enthusiasts
>> are looking for something more than fuel mileage.

I agree too.

I suspect that's why the PZEV & SULEV vehicles that don't also offer high MPG are only sold in California. There's simply no compelling reason to buy them elsewhere. A single outstanding benefit isn't enough. That's why I like Prius so much. It offers BOTH, plus other features like the smoooooothness.

Another Prius feature I'm hoping for (soon) is a MP3 player that will take full advantage of having a Multi-Display. You need a touch-sensitive screen that large to make accessing 20GB of songs practical. The GPS Navigation system already offers a unique appeal, MP3 would definitely add to that.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

daysailer · March 2003

The examples that you cite, where someone sacrifices their performance desires due to a long commute, suggests that they are motivated by econommy. Yet the cost premium for the hybrids is so great that it cannot be recovered in the USA unless we approach European fuel prices.

Where's the economy?

idletask · March 2003

Actually no, I was talking about the future offerings on both sides. In both cases, current offerings are poor (number wise, that is).

A word about Diesels and pollution... It is known fact that 1. Diesels output far less CO2 and 2. they output more NOx and particulates. Why? Well, NOx is due to not rich enough mixture, particulates are due to too rich a mixture. Gas engines also do output particulates and NOx but far less of them. Why? Because the mix is homogenized before entering the cylinder. This is not so with Diesels. So, they have the choice of a higher injection pressure yet or homogenizing the mix before it enters the cylinder (HCCI). Unfortunately the latter solution offsets the definitive advantage of Diesels which is precision in the combustion process. Which is why current systems choose it another way, multiplying the number of injections in order to homogenize the mix too. Prior Common Rail systems used two injections, a pilot one and a main one. Today they use 4: two pilot injections, a main one and a post one. More pilot injections mean a more homogenous mix, the post one means reduction in NOx. And down the exhaust line they can fit particulate filters to reduce particulates as well.

A little known thing about catalysers is that they do well at eliminating uncomplete hydrocarbon components, fine, but they turn them into... CO2.

So, in a few years' time, when more hybrids and Diesels will hit the US market, hybrids will be better performers, and Diesels will be cleaner.

I'm curious to see how the MB E320 CDI will be perceived. IIRC it will be introduced this year. I also find a pity that future hybrids that I hear of should only be SUVs. What about a good old, conventional sedan instead? At least they could be directly compared.

And why on earth haven't manufacturers yet come with a way to remove nitrogen out of inducted air

That would eliminate the NOx problem altogether. I know nothing about chemicals, so it's very probably a pipe dream of mine...

sphinx99 · March 2003

Why are we comparing hybrid to Diesel? They are not mutually exclusive. Hybrid = hybrid drivetrain--conventional fuel engine combined with self-recharging electrical motivation.

Which would I choose? A hybrid Diesel.

john1701a · March 2003

People are also obsessed with making fuel-cell and hybrid technology mutually exclusive.

But in reality, full hybrids like Prius will simply evolve into fuel-cell hybrids. Components on Prius will rely more and more on electricity as time goes on. It will eventually get to the point where a fuel-cell will simply replace the engine which is only used to generate electricity then. And eliminating the battery-pack (or ultra-capacitor) wouldn't make sense, since that provides a quick startup supplement for fuel-cell vehicles in cold climates (since high temperatures are needed for the hydrogen reaction to take place).

JOHN http://john1701a.com

bksward · March 2003

And why on earth haven't manufacturers yet come with a way to remove nitrogen out of inducted air That would eliminate the NOx problem altogether. I know nothing about chemicals, so it's very probably a pipe dream of mine...

The amount of air inducted into an engine is enormous. To concentrate the air into just oxygen and argon you're talking about needing about 1 hp per 5 cfm of air that you want to process into about 1 cubic foot of oxygen.

These are just back of the envelope calculations, but they are within 20% or so.

hload · March 2003

I'm a happy owner of a 03 jetta wagon TDI, the only major maintenance I have to do are oil changes at 10K, fuel filter at 20K and timing belt at 100K.

The car handles pretty good, has 6 airbags, ABS brakes and gets between 45-50 mpg doing 75-80 mph and can haul a lot more than any hybrid on the market today.

What maintenance do hybrids require and how much will it cost to replace the batteries?

I even passed a corvette on the highway today!

john1701a · March 2003

>> What maintenance do hybrids require and how much
>> will it cost to replace the batteries?

For routine maintenance info, there's a scan of the booklet available on this webpage...
http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-maintain02.htm

As for the battery-pack replacement, that question is rather obscure since there's no real way of knowing how much each module will cost 200,000 miles from now. For most owners, that won't be for quite a few years. At that point, Toyota's goal of building & selling 300,000 hybrid systems per year (beginning in 2005) will be well established. So the expectation of price drops from high-volume production and competition will be very realistic.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

hload · March 2003

Thats assuming they last for 200K

john1701a · March 2003

>> Thats assuming they last for 200K

One owner already made it that far without any trouble. In fact, he almost made it to 207K miles. But then Toyota offered to purchase his Prius for the real-world data it provided.

There's no way of knowing what the average life will actually be or how much further he could have driven, but at least it's proof that it's possible.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

hload · March 2003

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58033-2003Mar7.htm- l

john1701a · March 2003

"A Diesel That Delivers, for a Price" is the title of that March 9, 2003 article.

A 2003 Volkswagen Jetta GLS 1.9 TDI wagon was tested and given the following highlights...

COMPLAINT: Unimpressive 0-to-60-mph acceleration.

PRAISE: Impressive in the long run.

Personally, I'll support any cost-effective, reliable, efficient technology that can deliver a SULEV emission rating or better. And we know it's possible with diesel. Spreading the availability of the low-sulfur diesel and installing the improved cleansing components is what's needed. How long will it take the powers-that-be to finally make that happen?

Meanwhile, hybrids continue to improve. The new Prius (rumored for this fall) is suppose to deliver a little better efficiency. The new Civic-Hybrid (now available) offers SULEV, plus a great warranty on the emissions system: 15 years/150,000 miles. Both hybrids are growing very close to qualifying for several PZEV credits each. That makes their development far more appealing from a corporate stand-point than diesel.

Do you know if their is anything solid on the emissions development horizon for diesel?

JOHN http://john1701a.com

hload · March 2003

In the WA Post - I bet the author was driving the automatic transmission.

Denso Corp. is in advanced talks to supply a new, high-pressure diesel common rail fuel system to a European automaker. It would be Denso's first such contract for a European automaker.

Denso board member Hiromi Tokuda confirmed the high-level talks in an interview Tuesday at the SAE World Congress.

"We are in negotiations with a new customer in Europe, a European automaker," said Tokuda, chief of Denso's diesel and gasoline injection products divisions. He declined to name the automaker but said talks could be completed before summer.

Denso is facing stiff competition to equip hot-selling diesels in Europe, where it is the fourth largest common rail supplier. Robert Bosch GmbH is the dominant diesel player, followed by Siemens VDO Automotive and Delphi Corp., which acquired TRW Inc.'s LucasVariety diesel operations.

Denso is counting on its new 1,800-bar common rail system, which the company contends provides the highest injection pressure system yet available. The pressure rating is equivalent to 26,107 pounds per square inch.

The system helps diesels reduce emissions and noise even at low speeds and has cleared Euro IV emissions regulations, according to the company.

The 1,800-bar system appears to be the one Tokuda is prepared to offer to the undisclosed European automaker. The system delivers five injections during each combustion stroke.

Denso's common rail system is comprised of a supply pump, a common rail with a high-pressure sensor, solenoid injectors and a high-speed 32-bit engine electronic control unit with an electronic injector driver.

If Denso wins the contract, the company is expected to expand its common rail diesel injection manufacturing operations in Hungary. That plant currently supplies Toyota Motor Corp. and Isuzu Motors Ltd. operations in Europe. Denso supplies Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. in Europe with units built in Japan.

Denso is expected to start full-scale production of the 1,800-bar system in Hungary in 2003 and in Thailand in 2004.

The 1,800-bar system was installed on the Mazda MPV minivan sold in Europe in June 2002. The Mazda 6, launched in September 2002, was also equipped with the system.

Denso executives also unveiled plans at the SAE show to build a 2,000-bar system, equivalent to 29,000 psi, slated to be launched sometime in 2005 or 2006.

john1701a · March 2003

>> I bet the author was driving the automatic transmission.

Since 90% of the consumers in the US prefer not having to shift (automatic or CVT), that's an important factor that should not be overlooked.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

scooter71 · March 2003

people who think diesels will invade the US should read this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/08/automobiles/08AUTO.html

hload · March 2003

While diesels will not invade us, they are pretty prevelant with the PU drivers Ford, Chevy Dodge all sell diesel trucks and VW sells every TDI it imports. Europeans also use Ultra Low Sulpher Diesel Fuel which is not mandatory in the here until 2006.

TDI's get as good of fuel milage as most hybrids.

My best is 52 highway but I average 48 in mixed driving

boaz47 · March 2003

diesel is big with the truck boys. It does seem logical if they can just get that particulant P-10 thing under control.

Hybrid vs Diesel

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