Jeep Liberty Diesel

sebring95 · February 2004

I have a relative that used to own several auto franchises and he would get copies of all the TSB's sent to his home by the manufacturers. I would sift though them sometimes just for the heck of it and many were just plain silly. I would say only half were about real problems, the rest were just concerning availability of parts, ordering processes, changes to delivery, etc. I remember one particularly was to change a part# on mud guards for a particular model. Most of the TSB's also gave the number of possible effected models and some were for only a couple hundred. Some problem was detected in manufacturing for a certain run of cars and many of the updates were to made prior to delivery of the vehicle. In other words, the number count of TSB's is a long-shot scientifically for determining a problematic vehicle. Warranty repair claim data is really the only way, and that's hard to get ahold of.

Liberty has been out long enough that most bugs should be well worked out. I wouldn't be too concerned with the diesel option since it's been out awhile too, just not here. Who knows what our crappy diesel will do to the thing though.

moparbad · February 2004

In the March Car and Driver there is an article about diesel. http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_- id=7816&page_number=1
In the chart that is omitted from the online version of article it may be seen that diesel option is less cost, nearly same or slightly higher cost than comparable gasoline version when sold in Europe. In the USA you pay $4000 or more for diesel in pickup trucks and SUT's. This higher cost is due to greed and not actual cost of manufacture IMHO.
If diesel is to sell in North America in volume it will have to be at parity or minimal increase in cost, same as in Europe. Charging $4000 extra for a Liberty or passenger car diesel option will spell doom for diesel.
An example of successful diesel marketing is VW TDI where the diesel is more expensive than 2.0L gas and less expensive than 1.8T. It sells well at that level.

sebring95 · February 2004

In the USA you pay $4000 or more for diesel in pickup trucks and SUT's. This higher cost is due to greed and not actual cost of manufacture IMHO.

That may be (simple demand) but it seems there are a lot of folks that walk away from a diesel pickup just from the cost. Even if you really don't lose much in depreciation, they still see it as an excessive cash outlay. I am more of the opinion that these engines cost that much because they're built for extreme conditions. The Cummins is not much short of an OTR engine, and the Duramax/Powerstroke are also designed for long-term heavy use. The engineering, component strength, and severe service items alone have to add up to a big cost. My TDI will likely last a long time, but I'd bet if I pulled a even light-duty trailer/load constantly it would wear out much quicker simply because it's not designed for that.

anomious · February 2004

Hi! See post #1979 Bridgestone REVO's rule!

moparbad · February 2004

If you have a personal issue to take up with colorado then why not do it via email and in privacy?

tidester · February 2004

That's a wonderful place to take personal matters!

tidester, host

caribou1 · February 2004

I've often travelled to the US and Canada. Every rental car I've used gave me the equivalent mileage to what we get in Europe. Relatives from British Columbia, were addicted to M_Benz diesel cars since ~1960, and I've never heard of any complaint about diesel fuel quality. Another thing about diesel fuel: american trucks and loaders I see along your roads don't make more smoke than the ones we have here, and we use the same makes of scrapers, loaders, etc...
I believe that when the Liberty Diesel will be available to you, the curtain will fall over the fears expressed in this forum.

diegob1 · February 2004

a greeting to all from South Africa. I am the owner of a 2002 2.5 CRD 5 speed manual. our diesel has 3% sulphur content (not very good), we are waiting for the 0.5% (like in Europe) to come here in a year or so. I keep an accurate log of consumption and so do other company employees with 3.7 automatic. here are the figures for our fleet (2 year old). Liberty Diesel: Town 10.7 l/100km freeway 9.5 l/100km. Liberty Petrol 3.7 auto box: town 17.6 l/100km freeway 11.7 l/100km. Our speeds are: town max 60Km/h freeway 120 km/h.
These figures seem to be the norm with everyone. P.S. our altitude in Johannesburg is 1800Mt. ASL.. so the turbo looses less power, consequently has the advantage... I hope this helps..

sebring95 · February 2004

Between two individuals on the same road can vary quite widely. Nevermind between different road conditions, countries, and models. Why would I put any amount of trust into a study (he says, she says) that's about as unscientific as is possible?

Somebody claims they get 24mpg out of a gasser liberty (which is 3mpg MORE than the epa highway and I believe possible for long trip legs, but not day-in and day-out). Another person claims (from a different country) that they get 24mpg average highway mileage from a diesel Liberty. Then another person (from another country) claims they get 24mpg overall average from a diesel liberty in heavy city use. How can this be used to prove much of anything beyond different people and driving condition result in widely differnt mpg ratings??

The diesel liberty should get about 30% better fuel economy as the gasser. That's only fairly compared to the same driver over the same conditions.

caribou1 · February 2004

I think you can consider the density of a populated area to compare mileage. Do you think you would get the same mileage if you were to use your private truck outside the country ?
Well, it's the same for us. The only scientific approach here is the total mileage covered in the different parts of the world; miles could be understood as 'N' entries. I've been checking my mileage since I bought the truck, and it comes to 10.3 L/100KM (+/- 0.2) over 17000 KM. For a scientist, this means around 38 refills with a possible distribution error of 0.3 liters every 50 liters.

sebring95 · February 2004

I just think there are way too many variables to sit around a forum and debate/argue gas mileage. I think it's great to chat about it to see the possibilities of what the vehicles are capable of (or not capable of). However, to actually dismiss a vehicle because someone in Europe is only getting xx mpg when they claim to be getting equal mpg from a gasser here in the states is crazy.

In addition there are likely differences between what one person calls highway, urban, city, etc. as well. When I state my highway mileage, that's usually 100% for the highway. In other words, I get on the highway, set the cruise to a certain speed and drive until I need fuel (or a bathroom if driving the TDI

. Others might be doing their highway driving on urban loops which in many cases can be as bad as city driving.

Then there is the driver personality which can have a great effect on economy. My wife can get upwards of 3-4mpg better with my diesel Jetta around town because she's not as aggresive as I am.

It's just totally unscientific data for the most part, great for chatting but nothing to get mad and make a decision on. Now if EVERYONE came on here and said "I can't get more than 16mpg out of my Liberty no matter what I do" than that sounds like a vehicle issue.

jayrider · February 2004

When discussing the relative merits of diesel vs gas mpg it would seem a realistic examination of just what a Liberty is made to do would be in order.
The Liberty is a truck that is built to endure harsh off-road conditions as well as navigate city streets and interstate highways. It sits high and is boxy and has a beefed-up frame, suspension, and drivetrain. It was not built for fuel economy whether you're burning gas or diesel. The MPG matches the vehicle so unless you do an extreme makeover to the fuel technology system, the numbers are not going to make most people smile--gas or diesel.
If you want something with high MPG then look elswhere. Meanwhile, enjoy it for what it is and make friends with your local fuel station pump.

caribou1 · February 2004

If you want a pure comparison that you can reproduce locally, over here the Nissan Terrano IIS, the new Toyota Land Cruiser and the new Mitsubishi Pajero get the same mileage as the Jeep. They all have equivalent mass, power and acceleration.
This way you filter out driving habits.

sebring95 · February 2004

That's all well and good, but if someone needs those features and drives a lot, gas mileage is very important. I've gone the route where I now have two vehicles to do the same job as one. I just have no desire to put 40k miles a year on a vehicle that averages 18mpg (my prior Jeep Cherokee). I run my Jetta TDI for most of the driving, but about once a week I need to haul a lot of equipment, have poor weather conditions to contend with, need to get back into a property with no roads, or need to pull a heavy trailer. All that requires more than my TDI has to offer. Someone who is stuck with one vehicle is going to seriously consider mpg as a part of their vehicle choice. Assuming the liberty does as well as most diesels (30% better mpg) that could be $700 a year for someone in my situation. Granted that's not a ton of money, but it's money you're otherwise just pumping into your tank with no benefit.

jayrider · February 2004

I have no argument with your desire for good MPG. My point is that the Jeep Liberty, as it is presently configured, is not the best choice to achieve that goal. Diesel included.

sebring95 · February 2004

I understand your point. It may not be the best choice if mpg is your only goal, but when an all-around useful vehicle can get decent mpg, you've got a good combo.

There are plenty of cars to pick from that get decent mpg, but anyone that needs/wants 4x4 and trailer towing ability are stuck buying gas guzzlers. Nothing in this category that gets good mpg can tow or off-road

sebring95 · February 2004

I remember quite awhile back DC was talking about plans for future diesels and the Liberty, Dakota, and PT Cruiser were all on the short list. Big difference with the PT and Liberty as they're already offered with diesels in Europe.

I'm not sure the Dakota would be worth much better mpg. I can squeeze 20-21mpg out of my 5.3L 4x4 Tahoe out on the highway and it doesn't seem to matter if I've got two passengers or six passengers plus luggage. Weight doesn't seem to effect the mpg, more so the aerodynamics. Not sure the Dakota is going to slice through the air much better than a Ram. Maybe worse as tall as the 4x4 Dodges sit.

stever · February 2004

This Real Wheels article from the Wash. Post has a good blurb about diesel in the US -- it's about 1/2/ way down the page.

Steve, Host

diegob1 · February 2004

we have right hand drive vehicles & drive on the left hand side of the road ! (remember we were a British colony long time ago...so we inherited their peculiarities ! )

In our organization there are 12 Liberty diesels and 15 Liberty 3.7 liters... we all have a petrol card and fill up the vehicles each time...each month we get a report with consumption, cost per km etc. The company is now refusing to buy the petrol 3.7 Liberty because of the unacceptable consumption. By the way at 80Km/h the liberty gets 8,4 l/100 km. Air-conditioning on or off makes no difference to the consumption ! The turbo lag @ 1000 RPM - 1900 rpm is atrocious and unacceptable at high altitudes. (at sea level the truck is more smooth). I have erratic access to this site (on the road most time), so I post replies when I get opportunity to log on .

caribou1 · February 2004

I fear this will be a show stopper for those who will want to pull a trailer with the manual shifter. I have the turbo lag on the 2.8L CRD automatic, but at least it's the hydraulic coupler that compensates instead of keeping my foot on the clutch. I was never able to get less than 9.6l/100 km: this is the price to pay to have a bit more torque with the 2.8L auto. At altitudes of over 2000 meters it still climbs like a goat.

diegob1 · February 2004

I have done a bit of investigation (having owned a Freelander 2.0 Diesel before with hardly any lag), I contacted the designers & manufacturers in Cento - Italy (yes it's an Italian designed & built engine, division of Detroit diesel). Apparently the engineers designed both units 2.8 & 2.5 to run optimally with a variable nozzle turbo. The 2.8 would get 125KW and the 2.5 115Kw.
So to save cost, a std vane was fitted... with the consequence that this has a higher inertia & therefore turbo lag...

caribou1 · February 2004

I also contacted VM Motori at the email address "info@cento.detroitdiesel.com" about what I interpretate as being the waste gate resonnating between 2000 and 2200 RPM.
They told me they had no complaint sofar, and dissapeared. Typically this rattling sound appears between 100-110 KM/H on flat grounds.
It's the only thing I would like to be fixed by DC. I just can't imagine a whole day of travelling at 110 KM/H with that noise. People will just become more and more aggressive, and Jeep will make a flop with the diesel market: no torque at the low end and a whistling kettle at the other! But for driving faster than the speed limit, it becomes quiet again until you hear the siren of the highway patrol.

jayrider · February 2004

Is yours a Renegade, a Sport, a Limited or a NTW?
{No Torque Whistler}

caribou1 · February 2004

Mine is a Liberty Sport "Jamboree".
The whistling is a punishment reserved to those who like diesels. I stongly believe that people who don't mind the high accoustics don't hear it after a few years. Right now I'm forced to adapt my driving below or above 2100-2200 RPM.
But I'm sure this can be improved. It's just the matter of choosing the proper engine and transmission mounts, and tuning the turbo properly. This is already well done on the diesel sedans!

bpeebles · February 2004

Does a diesel have to be turbo'd????
NO.

Does anybody make a naturally aspirated diesel???
Perhaps.. but a diesel and a turbocharger work soooo Verrry well together that most designers would not consider it. The early VW diesels were NA (Naturally Asperated) engines. Some Diesel motorcycles and lawnmowers may not be turbocharged.

Lets not forget that a diesel engine (unlike a gasoline engine)is "throttled" by adjusting the FUEL FLOW into it. There is no butterfly valve in the intake system so a diesel engine is ALWAYS breathing as much air as it possibly can. (This is part of its efficency because a gasoline engine is always "working" to suck in air past the throttlevalve which is pinching off the intake.)

So, the first thing a diesel engine wants is LOTS of air getting into it. The action of a turbocharger "recycles" wasted exhaust energy by forcing more air into the engine. On any engine, (gas included) a turbocharger acts to "recycle" otherwise wasted exhaust energy that would go out the tailpipe.

A turbocharger allows an engine to produce 20%-50% more power than it would if it were NA. Essentually FREE power that is usually wasted out the exhaust pipe as heat and noise.

I sure wish I COULD hear the turbocharger on my VW Jetta. All I can hear is a slight whistle at idle. Any RPM above idle sends the turbocharger into the stratosphere wayyy beyond my upper range of hearing.

caribou1 · February 2004

You can compare a NA diesel to a steam engine. The more displacement= the more torque= the more expensive the transmission= the more difficult the driving on slippery conditions (gravel+snow). I have a Toyota Corolla 2.0L NA diesel manual shift as second car. It only has 75HP, but at very low RPM. It's so easy, cheap and pleasant to drive in the city that I intend to keep it until it falls apart. I never spent more than 6L/100Km in the heavy traffic, which is half of what my 'bulldozer' eats without even burping.

2fastdre · March 2004

It has been exactly 1 year since this thread has been created. We all heard initial rumors about a diesel Liberty, but it's still not in the show rooms. Any latest estimates on when Diesel liberty will be here?

I have a perfect commuter car: VW Golf GLS TDI. I get 46 mpg during heavy commutes and I can get up to 51 mpg on long highway trips. I cannot tow a ski-boat with my Golf, so I need a mid-size truck or SUV to do this. I love diesel - it makes crusing and passing in the Rocky mountains effortless. But there are no options for diesel mid-size trucks or SUVs. I have to buy a full-size domestic truck or Excursion to get diesel power. And I don't have $70K for a VW Touareg V10 TDI. My dream is that after 2006 (once we get cleaner diesel fuel) - I can get a diesel 4Runner or something similar.

2FastDre.

2fastdre · March 2004

I fully respect and admire Cummins, especially the latest High Output version with 600 ft-lbs of torque. But my other requirement for a truck or SUV is to have 4 regular doors and comfortable seating for 5, and 4 wheel drive. A quad-cab Ram 2500 4x4 is getting a little too big/heavy for me. I need to tow about 4000 lbs and the Ram seems to be overkill. Well, we will see.

2FastDre.

sebring95 · March 2004

Is overkill for sure. Not only an extremely heavy vehicle, but the mileage isn't going to be much better unless you're comparing it to full-size trucks. I made a 1000 mile run last weekend with my '03 Ram 3500 HO six-speed with 4.10's. Granted not the best set-up for mileage but running empty at 75mph with 50mph headwinds I could only turn about 14mpg empty. Coming back with a 14,000# trailer I ran 75mph and averaged about 9mpg. Some of the trip was through Kentucky/Ohio/TN so there were decent hills involved and no we didn't slow down for the hills;) That's where the diesel is great. Pulling 14,000# up a hill at 75mph in sixth gear, yee haw!

jayrider · March 2004

My new Jeep.com/ownermag has a brief report on the Liberty diesel on page one. They claim they kept all the good [power, torque, fuel efficiency] and eliminated the bad[smoke, soot, clatter]. It will debut in the Fall in 45 states. They gave an E-mail contact for those who are interested.
jeepmagazineletters@bbdodetroit.com

mtngal · March 2004

I don't like the sounds of "...deput in the fall in 45 states." Guess that'll leave me out - California is always one of the left out states. Oh well, back to the drawing board...

bpeebles · March 2004

(mtngal) I truly hope this does not surprize you. It is a very well known fact that California and the other states (border states) that have adopted those goofy "CARB" regulations will not have new Diesels available. (Used ones can be registerd in most of these states) When the ELSD becomes avaialble, things may change.

It is EXTREEMLY unfortunate that the CARB folks have not kept "up to speed" on diesel technology. If they really wanted to make some changes, they could measure in "emmissions per mile" instead of what they currently do. Since a diesel uses over 20% less fuel per mile, many of the emmissinons factors are less by definition.

Another problem that us "boarder states" have is that our legeslation has forced the CARB rules upon us... but the accompining specia FUEL that California has is NOT AVAILABLE in our states.

It is a sad thing that politicians feel compelled to "regulate" what they know little about.

All I can say is that I am glad that I got my diesel VW Jetta in 2003 before Vermont shut down the availability of diesels. 52MPG and over 600 Miles/tank puts a smile on face every time 8-)

mtngal · March 2004

No surprise that they leave California and the border states out - VW stopped selling diesels here last year. I had hopes that the Liberty would be my answer - a 4x4 and a diesel. Oh well, perhaps I'll just put new seats in the Taco and keep it until something more economical in an SUV comes along...

caribou1 · March 2004

Diesel fuel under clean burning conditions will give practically zero NOx but very fine carbon particles. The latest european diesel design includes a particle filter in the tail pipe. To my opinion, this is the real comparison factor with unleaded gas engines, as of the odorless breathing sensation a pedestrian observes in a city at rush hour.

caribou1 · March 2004

I'm back from a 1900 KM trip, under heavy rain and forced to drive between 90 and 110 KM/H. There were very few populated areas, so I was able to simulate your driving conditions over a few tankfulls (this time it was relevant).
I was able to get as low as 9.17 L/100Km. Considering this is an automatic and what the competitors are really giving their customers, there is nothing to be ashamed of. True (only) city mileage alone is 11.7 L/100Km.
Commuting 50% city 50% @110KM/H is 10.3L/100Km. This is almost arithmetical and excellent for the 'bulldozer'.

jayrider · March 2004

Could you convert those figures to miles per gallon, I'm metrically challenged. Thanks.

caribou1 · March 2004

235.215 US's magic number
282.481 UK's magic number
so:
235.215/9.17=25.6US mpg [@55~70mph]
235.215/10.3=22.8US mpg [50%city @35mph+ 50%@75mph]
235.215/11.7=20.1US mpg [city traffic ~20%queuing]
As a comparison:
Driving a Cadillac STS Northstar in Montreal traffic gave me 16L/100Km [14.7mpg], and I got the same from a Lincoln Towncar. I love to play with the big cars we can't afford because of taxes over here! The cost of renting a compact in Europe will get you a luxury full size in North America. That's life...

jayrider · March 2004

My current MPG gas averages for my loaded Liberty are as follows:

Steady highway 55-65 mph = 21-22 mpg

50/50 city-highway = 17-19mpg

city = 15-16

It seems that any driving that deviates from pure highway cruising is devastating on mpg averages. I'm hoping that the RainX windshield treatment that I recently applied will improve wind resistance to increase mpg enough to justify the 75 cent cost of the product used.[smiley face]
Your figures for the diesel are close to a 25% improvement.
Driving 10,000 miles yields about a $ 140 savings if fuel averages $1.70 per gallon. Now we need to know how much more Jeep is going to charge for the diesel option to determine the break even point.

Driving the land yachts like Cadillac and Lincoln sure make the Liberty feel like a log truck. I have a Chrysler Concorde with all the options and it is one sweet ride for considerably less money. The Liberty seems fine as long as I stay away from the Concorde for a week
or so. I like the contrast-- it makes life a little more interesting. The Concorde with a 3.5 liter V-6 will average 24-25 mpg highway and 18-20 mpg city.

mike91326 · March 2004

I was thinking of getting a diesel this fall but I live in SoCal. However, after talking to a friend of mine I may have a way of getting around CARB. My friend, who moved to Las Vegas about two years ago, told me to register the car at his Vegas address. Does anyone see a problem with this setup? All paperwork will be sent to my friend in Las Vegas and he will forward it to me.

jayrider · March 2004

Probably no problem unless you get into an accident and your insurance refuses to pay because you misrepresented where the vehicle was actually housed. Drive safely.

mike91326 · March 2004

I would give my insurance company my true address in SoCal.

mtngal · March 2004

The answer legally is no, you can't do that. IIRC, you have to register a car 60 days after it comes into the state if you are a resident.

Part of the problem also comes from the sales tax issue - California wants their cut of a vehicle purchased by a California resident, no matter where it was purchased (I once thought about buying a car in Nevada because I could have gotten a better deal, but the paperwork seemed to be too much of a bother for what little I would save).

As to whether you could get away with it - that's up to you. Personally, I wouldn't try - too much of a chance of someone hitting you or getting a parking ticket or lots of other possibilities. And I have no idea what the fines are if they catch you with an improperly registered vehicle.

Final question to be answered - is Nevada one of the border states? I vaguely thought it was for some reason, but don't recall why. So will it even be available in Nevada?

caribou1 · March 2004

From my experience, if diesel fuel is sold 30% cheaper than gas, you can enviseage changing the every day vehicle. You pay more at the time of purchase of the diesel, but consider you can keep it for many years. Modern vehicles have galvanic rust proofing treatment done by immersion. The standard no-rust period is about 12 years. Here most cars end their lives in demolition yards because of accidents, not because of corrosion.
Considering the behaviour of the diesel engine in off-road conditions, I must admit it makes it easier to keep the driver's attention on the track and forget about the eventual stalling of the engine. You could compare with driving a farm tractor. It has it's charms.
For commuting, it's like being fit and carrying a heavy ruck-sack everyday. You burn more calories...

caribou1 · March 2004

I forgot to mention we pay Diesel 0.8 Euro per liter and 95 Octane gas 1.15 Euro per liter.
This brings the diesel to 4.00 USD/Gal, and gas to 5.75 USD/Gal. This also makes our break even point more evident...
The truck sells for 33000 Euros (41250 USD)
The insurance is ~1000 Euros (1250 USD)
Normal services each 12000 miles are ~150 Euros. I will have to pay for my first service soon.

jayrider · March 2004

Fuel costs may vary around the country,but diesel is going for $1.70 and regular gas is priced at $1.63. Not a big incentive for me to consider the diesel.
The biggest cost for owning a vehicle here in the States is depreciation---not fuel costs. Is it that way in Europe?
The only thing that makes sense financially is to buy used and get lucky or keep a new car for 2-3 hundred thousand miles. Even with possible major repairs and rebuilds, you still come out better over the long haul. The problem is that it's not much fun. Buying what you want goes to the heart of most consumers. I plead guilty as charged.
Your thoughts on the charm of driving a vehicle that is a bit less refined is right on. It's exactly why I bought a
liberty instead of a Honda CR-V. I'm happy to say that I'm still enjoying myself behind the wheel.
Over $40,000 for a Liberty--ouch!! Hopefully, your taxes cover all your medical care and prescriptions to help balance the budget.

2fastdre · March 2004

Yes - vehicle depreciation hits hard in United States. However, fuel cost is not the only attraction of a diesel. Diesel vehicle (like my VW TDI) depreciates less than the same car with a regular engine. You can do a search here (on edmunds) under used cars and see this difference. I think - it's because a diesel engine usually lasts longer and easier to maintain. And if you consider that you can go 1.5 times further on diesel than regular gas, then the long haul looks more financially attractive. Once you are done calculating potential savings, then consider the Torque.

2FastDre.

sebring95 · March 2004

Very true on the diesel typically holding value better. When new, my TDI Jetta was about $1000 more than a 2.0L Jetta and about $500 LESS than a 1.8T. Right now according to KBB.COM, my TDI is worth $1100 MORE than a 1.8T and $1500 MORE than a 2.0L. That's comparing identically equipped/mileage cars.

Those are some big numbers for a car that cost around $18,000 new. Puts me at 54% of new value, the 1.8T at 47%, and the 2.0L at 49%. 5%-7% variance is very large for four year old vehicles.

moparbad · March 2004

I like the torque of the diesel.
I like the efficiency of a diesel and not having to fill up as often.
I like the higher resale of a diesel, don't like the higher initial cost.
I like the fact that diesel fuel is less expensive nearly all year in the area I live in.
I like the fact that diesel is a renewable fuel that may be refined from vegetable oils, animal fats and waste veg/animal oils.

jayrider · March 2004

is an outstanding alternative to a gas vehicle. If I was looking for great mileage in a proven product, it would be at the top of my list. I think they get 45mpg. The TDI is a car and the Liberty is a two ton truck. If I could get 45mpg on a diesel Liberty, my name would probably be on the waiting list. If for nothing else other than bragging rights. Ok, I could upgrade my grand slam breakfast at Denny's to the super slam more often as well.

caribou1 · March 2004

Once the diesel market is established, it's resale value will most likely be similar to the gas vehicles. It happened here. By definition, the consumer exists to inject money in the system, not to save.

Jeep Liberty Diesel

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