Hey Manley!! Down here in the Pee Dee region of the Palmetto state, we are up to 2.70/gal for gas and diesel is over 2.50/gal and rising! :surprise: Guess no matter what the fuel, all drivers are going to get the "oil company shaft"! But still, the cost per mile between diesel and gas for the same model (ie:Liberty) was around 2.5 cents less for the diesel when the cost of diesel was .20 cents more than gas. So now it is most certainly even better. Also, in Taylors,SC there is plant under construction that will have capacity to produce 30 million gals of bio-diesel annually!! That should be good new to us here in SC and elsewhere.
ROI for the aircraft is zilch in comparison to automobiles. Notice that the Lockheeds and the Boeings are not elevated higher in the Fortune 100 than the Big 3. When a company can sell 200,000 cars a year of just a single model at $25k/per whereas an A/C manufacturer sells 35 a/c a year at $50M/per, the ROI should be greater. The bottom line is that the car company should proportionately employ its engineering task with respect to its cash flow, especially since the civilian sector is so litigiously inclined these days. There are more lives lost in automobile accidents and more customers lost from dissatisfaction because of the auto's prolificacy than from a few poorly constructed aircraft from only 1 of 3 remaining defense primes. The C-130-J30 is a prime example of product quality problems largely due to poor QA and engineering. The gov paid out the nose to get the rear-door cavitation problem fixed on it where it should have been properly designed in the first place. But, they had no choice, the contract was cost-plus and LM was the only company to get it done correctly. The profits were 5 to 10% at best because of the screw-ups.
So, yes, ROI is potentially much greater on automobiles if the concept, design, manufacturing, and assembly in conjunction with marketing, sales, and customer support are executed well.
And I've never gotten my "money back" from an automobile venture. I have, however, spread the loss across a greater number of years by retaining a paid-for auto and therefore enjoyed a reduced per-year loss. Time and reduced impulsivity conspire to imbue wisdom on the feeble.
Good question: I'm going by what the Dealer said...when the engine is running and you take off the cap on the coolant...you can smell and see exhaust fumes.
BTW, this Jeep has less than 1000 miles and is only a couple of weeks old.
The date on the inside track of the driver's door says 02/06. I don't have my Jeep right now to give you any more info than that other than what is on the window sticker.
And it's such an honor to be a "leader" by purchasing a marketing ploy/toy that depreciates by 40% in 2 years (in this case more perhaps). In short, our wisdom is beyond our years, gents/lassies. The solidarity of the diesel engine is lost in the myriad of fiscally sucking issues that will undoubtedly appear vicariously in our monthly bottom lines.
The Liberty diesel that we have purchased clearly has a design flaw in the control of the powertrain system. Chrysler's massive budget-cutting push to standardize many of its parts has its advantages evinced in the reports to the shareholders, but they have used the new practice too liberally in their engineering execution. With a vehicle like this that is highly temperature sensitive (therefore requiring operational mapping in software much like the fly-by-wire vehicle systems of most of the 90's and newer aircraft), dependent on precise fuel release, that is matched to a Daimler transmission that was originally designed for a wider RPM-range V8 with a drastically different torque curve without the nuances of a turbo/lag; Daimler engineering should have spent much more time matching the factorial environmental conditions to the chosen components. (I should have shortened that sentence.) I work this very set of issues in aircraft where pito tubes, baro altimeters, inertial systems, rate gyros, temp sensors, strain gages, and accelerometers are all digitally sampled in conjunction with a set of full authority digital engine controlled turbo-fans for fly-by-wire aircraft control. We spend hundreds of thousands of man-hours simulating in software and testing in wind tunnels and then flying those aircraft.
Daimler has clearly cut corners in the test/verification department (Quality Assurance) and pushed this product to market prematurely. What a tragic way to "test" the user community by delivering a poorly "controlled" vehicle system with tendency to self-destruct. And they didn't make considerable improvement on the 2006 version that I just purchased as far as I can tell.
After reading all of this RAV4/CRV nonsense, it would be interesting to compare a 4WD four cylinder version of each against the CRD. Now you would be talking an apples to apples comparison.
Saddle that RAV4 with a transfer case and a rear drive axle and see how really bad the numbers get for the RAV 4.
Actually, I have no findings to report right now. I've been looking at the Liberty CRD, and thinking about running it on biodiesel. However, before I do, I'd like to know what experience others who've done this have had. Thanks for your input.
You should have mentioned the exhaust fumes. Yes you definitly have a bad head. You should also find coolant and fuel mixed in with your engine oil. Turn this car over to a good lemon law lawyer. You will have nothing but problems with the engine for a while. Have them drop the oil pan and inspect the crank bearings for being washed out. Plus insist they replace the oil pump. Before you leave them with the jeep, take an oil sample and coolant sample and have them tested. Good luck.
IF you want a car why don't you just buy one. I think calling the Rav4 or the CRV a truck is insulting to trucks everywhere. The CRD is not about 0-60 time. ITs a diesel! They are not exactly known for mind blowing acceleration. What are you going to do with a 2wd I4 rav4 anyway, take your kids to soccer practive. Hope you don't like camping, fishing, ect (anything that might require going through a muddy spot with that car tires). What is the towing capacity on that 500 lbs. Last time I check (several years ago so my number might be off) the accord had a higher towing capacity than the CRV mainly because of it crappy independant rear sup. If all you want is to out run a CRD and get better milage doing it buy an Accord, Civc, Carrola, Cobalt,or Maximuma(my gradma has a carrola and really likes it) and if you can't fit your kids soccor team in it then get a minivan. I hear the caravan is really nice, I bet you can get it with a DVD player too. As for me I will slowly tow my boat to the lake and with my 275ft-lbs I will drive my TRUCK over that stationwagon Rav4. Besides that thing looks like you got it out of a cracker jack box.
"You should also find coolant and fuel mixed in with your engine oil. Turn this car over to a good lemon law lawyer. You will have nothing but problems with the engine for a while. Have them drop the oil pan and inspect the crank bearings for being washed out. Plus insist they replace the oil pump. Before you leave them with the jeep, take an oil sample and coolant sample and have them tested. Good luck."
I would be carfull with the Bio. I am an big proponent but fuel filter clogging is not the only problem. I would definatly cut the oil change interval in half running anything over B20. Because Biodiesel has such good lubricating properites it will leech down the cylinder wall and contaminate the engine oil. This will reduce the viscosity of the oil and leave critical engine parts vonerable. B100 is ok if you are willing to take it to the service station about ever 4 to 5 thousand miles. I have read about this problem on the bio forums. I can't remimber exaclty where i read it but it was on the Biodeiselnow forum. The particular liberity that they were talking about was in germany and inorder to read more about it I had to go to another forum that was unfortunalty in german. I didn't get the whole story, but I would definaly not go 12000 between oil changes on b100.
Here in Aiken (the midland I guess) Diesel finialy creeped above 2.51/gallon today but it is much better than the 2.69/gallon my wife is paying to Reg. unleaded. And she thought getting a Diesel was a dumb idea. I had not heard about the Bio place in the upstate. I know that the state wanted to run the buses on B20. After nearly having to close the schools because of fuel supplies after Katrina I am supprised that they don't want to run them on B100. I would love the see all the fallow and abandon farm land in SC planted with Soy, corn, mustard, sugar cane, and Hemp. Interesting bit of triva for you. You can get more ethanol from an acre of Hemp than you can from an acre of corn and its much easier to grows. You would have to spray it with teen replant insted of bug repelant.
A fair comparison would be to hook both up to 5,000 pound trailers, drive 500 miles up and down some hills and compare the mileage. Oh, then go pull some stumps.
Enjoy the price difference. In SD the diesel jumped to 2.799 with gas @ 2.559 . Really annoying as diesel in this area was lower than gas during the summer. I have not found anyone carrying greater than B2 and mine doesn't like it.
I believe the CRD is rated for nothing higher than B5.
I also think Biodiesel will soften rubber parts in higher concentrations. Since most of the benefits of biodiesel can be reaped even with small amounts added, I would err on the side of caution and not exceed the spec. It's like E85 which is also a bio fuel: they have to swap out some seals and hoses for steel ones to make the vehicles able to handle the fuel.
Personally I don't think there's any harm in running every 10th tank as B20 as long as it is on a trip and you just run it through in a day. It just makes me nervous to have it sitting there in the fuel system for a week at a time, eating away at vulnerable parts.
This is only my opinion, if you want to run biodiesel, I can think of lots of reasons why it is better for the environment, farmers and geopolitical serenity.
It would be worth investigating if the CRD has rubber seals. My understanding is that the concerns about rubber softening are only on older cars. Cars made sence 1980 don't have these natural rubbers which BD will decay.
The liberty might have viton seals and lines which will survive BD. The libi is sold in euorpe with the CRD and BD is old news to the Euopeans who embrase it. I have heard that you would be hard pressed to find a filling station without Diesel fuel in germany and filling stations offering varing blends of BD are very common. I have also read that it is less expensive there because fuel prices are so much higher. Talk about hitting you in the wallet the english pay almost the same amount for a litter as we pay for a gallon.
I beg your pardon, but I pulled the tree stumps first. I also towed a refrigerated food truck (5~tons) that had stalled and was blocking the road where I live. I feel the only limitation this truck has comes from the nature of the ground at the time you have to do something unexpected. I really need to get a reinforced tow eye
Talk about hitting you in the wallet the english pay almost the same amount for a litter as we pay for a gallon. They often say "the budget" instead of "the wallet" :shades:
Thanks for the info...right now they are trying to blame in on everything but the head...ERG keeps coming up.
I agree with you about continuning problems...tried to get Chrysler to do a dealer swap...no dice. You would think they would want to stand behind their automobileS!!!
Besides a lawyer...any ideas on how to Chrysler's attention?
1) If our Government would ACT on this they could and have in the past controlled fuel prices by selling the oil reserves. This has lowered fuel prices. Yet they continue to buy more reserves. But what do you expect from oilman leading the way?
2) Fuel here in Ohio is $2.799 for both Diesel and gas. yesterday in Illinois, I was stations as high as $2.899 for gas, Diesel was $2.539
I use B20 about every third tank, which results in 5-15% actual biodiesel in the tank. The CRD runs smoother and quieter and smells better with higher proportions of biodiesel. There is no noticeable effect on power. I happily use BD when it's convenient to get, which is only sometimes. I would be careful to get high quality pure biodiesel and stick to one or two stations you can rely on rather than buy it wherever you might see it.
FWIW, my CRD is also happy running fresh diesel + Power Service Diesel Kleen. This seems to be the peppiest combination, but not as quiet as with B20. Diesel Kleen doesn't seem to help stale diesel, no surprise there.
sofascott. The engine is designed for B-5. You can do as you wish but every manufacturer of diesel parts, Bosh, etc. has come out against higher bio fuels due to their corrosive ingredients.
It's time to eat some words I have written here in the past. I took a trip to Chicago this week. I averaged 28.74 mpg! Now someone explain to me how this could happen? Traffic conditions: Road construction, bumper to bumper, not moving and then driving 80 mph, starting, stopping, heavy accelerations, getting cut-off by some nice defensive divers. God I love I94-355-55-80 area :confuse:
My drive to work is all highway and I have averaged 23.2 mpg. :confuse:
The trip there and back was state highways but lots of traffic lights in many little small towns, which was also on the same tank.
I also raced a 2005 Mustang (I knew the driver) and he couldn't keep up with me on acceleration he had it floored, so take that you RAV4 and CRV people the CRD will move! :shades: :P (same tank)
fieselfumes1: I would be upset to! However, a large part of the blame goes on the dealer how sold it to you. They are paid the prep the truck, and MAKE SURE EVERYTHING WORKS PROPERLY! The Lemon law was created for not only the consumers, but the makers. They do have the responsibility to correct any goofs the factory made, and to make the dealer do the job he was paid to do. I would go to the dealership owner or manager and take my wished made clear to him. Hope this helps.
drfill: After reading some of your other posts, you are a "highend man" you don't belong with this forum of practical thinking people. Why waste you time just stiring the pot? Go where you can agree with the others who think you are special like they are. Please!
Beats me. I drive my CRD like a rented mule and I get about 26+ on my weekly 100 mile trip to the beach. I also run 80+ and can't believe my trip computer at the end when it reads 26.2 mpg. Now for clarification, the Mustang you raced was towing a boat and had a v6 right?
eebro: I appreciate you sharing your wisdom, which is evident by the sentence structure and use of English that flat leaves me feeling like I never got past first grade. So please understand where I am coming from, my grand kids say I am as old as dirt. But I didn't just get of the turnip truck yesterday either. I think the issues I read about sorta fall into just a few areas. The first is operator error. These engines from V M Motori have been making these for DCX in Europe for nearly 15 years, with reasonable results from the consumers. Over 500,000 have been bought by DCX so far as of last OCT. So I think it's a pretty well proven engine. However, when all the diesel parts makers like DELPHI, BOSH, SIEMANS VDO, DENSO, and STANDYNE have stated firmly DO NOT USE ANY BIO FUEL HIGHER THAN B-5. That is because of FAME.(Fatty Acid Methyl Ester) fuels. In a 9 page letter sent to me from Mr. Frabetti Nicola, V. M. Motori S.p.A. Service Dept. which he sent to me on April 4, 2006. In the nine page statement it says NOT to use any Bio fuel above B-5."Any evidence that the product has fallen short of the required level of performance directly due to the use of non-acceptable fuels will render the manufacturer's guarantee null and void." So is someone makes the choice to use B-90 they have no room to cry out the engine is no good. Or that the EGR or some other fule related problem that happens when using higher FAME fuels than said. The second problem is the oil used. Mr. Frabetti Nicola states that the use of synthetic 5-40w or 10-40w is what V.M. Motori and he states that is what Europe sues. When anyone so chooses to use for insistence 15-45w then they assume the responsibility for their choice of oil, even when the owners manual says not to. If a person has followed the Owners Manual and then there is genuine warranty issues that DCX has to address. The transmission is a beefy one, and maybe it does need to be in a finer sync with the engine rpm. I do not think "Daimler has clearly cut corners...". I am of the opinion that some have experimented in areas such as fuels and oil weight, that might have created some issues, or that might come up later in engine longevity. As for losing 40% of the trucks value, I do not see that on any of the five auto value books. Again I think with proper care these will be a good investment. But assuming you are right, will even a 60% loss in value in 3 years so rip my financial future into little pieces? I doubt that it is not something any of could word through. In the big picture of life this Jeep Liberty is a passing thing that in ten years many may well be a only a memory of cars and trucks I once owned. It's only a man made machine to take me here and there. There are far more important issues than this CRD, like fishing with my wife and grand kids.
Just got the CRD back from the shop. Got the cooler, torque converter (TC), TC bushings (which had sheered off on the first torque converter), (2) TSB updates to the firmware and I can't remember what else. I get the shop ticket tomorrow. Will share more at that juncture.
The shop told me that my Jeep had been accepted into some experimental group at DCX since it was the first CRD sale in southern Maryland. I'll get more information on what that means, but I'm guessing a DCX engineer is tagged to some experiements they'll be making on the non-standard torque converter and firmware updates made to my machine.
I also checked with the shop and they claimed the transmission cooler is co-located within the A/C evaporator and not part of the usual radiator arrangement. Bottom line there is that if the cooler goes bad, you get R-134a and lubricant in your ATF reservoir. I haven't checked under the hood to confirm that, so take the input with a grain of salt. If that's true, the only way you can get ethylene glycol in your ATF is if your block's main seal and transmission/torque converter seals/bushings simultaneously blow out and mix in the forward housing of the transmission--nearly an impossible situation. Coolant in the engine is a result of either an oil cooler leak (assuming it's part of the radiator) or head/head gasket problem.
And, I will be getting shop manuals when found/available and talking with the assigned engineer at DCX. I'm hoping I don't have to sign a non-disclosure agreement to be included in the dealer-DCX discourse. Otherwise, stay tuned.
I took a CRD Liberty out today for a test drive and liked it even though I've been buying the Grands. Anyway, the mileage is of interest since I commute some 13 miles secondary road and 32 on the highway. I'm wondering if I can get close to the 26 MPG stated on the sticker. I have heard reports of 30 plus but thinking that is just chance. What can I really expect from a CRD mileage wise?
The last few pages of posts seem to deal with a lot of problems, and a somewhat dismal view for the future of our vehicles.....thought I'd breathe in a breath of fresh air for everone....my CRD is only about 2 weeks old, and with nearly 800 miles, I have not had one single problem. No problems with the engine, trans, or any other system on the truck. The AC will freeze you out (and we've already hit 90 here in Texas). There is the occassional bump or studder in the drivetrain, where the trans gets caught in the wrong gear, but I've experienced that in any computer controlled powertrain I've ever owned (Escort, Altima, Freestyle, Stratus, Trailblazer...even a DURAMAX DIESEL Silverado). That's nothing to stress about....it happens.
I understand that some of you are having some real problems, and I hope you find a good dealer to help you out....these are great vehicles and are a ton of fun to drive. I appreciate everyone's info, though, about the problems you have had and the cures/fixes you have found. Keep the info coming....knowledge is power, and the more we all know, the quicker we will all be able to get our problems solved when/if they do occur.
PS--there's nothing like punching it in the morning and seeing the cloud of smoke in the headlights of the car behind you :shades:
Just to follow up--here comes a bit of defensiveness: a fortitude check on your part, perhaps. All in good spirit, mate!
I don't take interest in the wares of biodiesel, and I do not plan to seek out any resellers of the stuff. If I happen to stop at a diesel filling station where biodiesel is present, I will probably ask if they have ULSD or straight petrol-based diesel. This forum can't support a technically proficient debate on polution and its effect on global warming so I'll refrain from opining. I would undoubtedly be seen as a kook after a theoretical deliverance on the topic, which isn't scary, but isn't useful.
I owned a Dodge Spirit for 6 years that my Dad bought for $2500. He eventually gave it to me after I had rebuilt the engine and reworked all but the computer system. I sold it with 300k miles on it for $1250 in 2001. I learned a lot during that time including how to take care of a vehicle, and the resale value should evince that. I have bought used cars since the Spirit(which was my first car), and each has my finger prints in sealed compartments. Until this CRD, I had never purchased a new car since I usually put 70k miles a year on autos and was a college student for much of that time. I have a decent income now, but $26k is still a lot to swallow for a mild miser like me. $26k buys a lot of clothes, food, house (in the deep south), etc.
Forty percent depreciation in 2 years is a reality for Jeeps at the moment. Just check out the Carmax sites which list many a Liberty. There is a listing (and it's not a loner)for an '04 Jeep Liberty 6-cylinder that sold new for $25k+tax/fees = $26k. 40% of that is $10.4k, right equating to a vehicle price of ~$15.5k? This particular Liberty has a sunroof and other niceties and mileage commensurate with 2 years usage (50k miles). It's selling for $15k+tax/fees = $16k, which is $10k lower than selling price. That's ~40%. Even blue book for the thing is only $16k, which is roughly 34% lower value than purchase price. I'm telling you, JEEP SUV resale right now is blowing big cheese. But so what. Drive 'em, love 'em or not.
With regard to MY CRD: I haven't changed the oil, and I haven't revved the engine beyond 3k rpm. I just picked the jeep off the dealer lot on 30 March, and have taken my children to church and driven 3 miles to work for 4 days in a row--no towing, no 0-60-0 tests, no hard braking, no pulsing the gas, no O/D disarming, nada. I know abuse--my Suzuki SV650 bike and my body flying from it have seen abuse for hundreds of miles--both without buckling...but that's a different story. I do plan to use straight Rotella T 5w40 from Wally world at $13/gallon when I do the oil changes. I've been using that brand/type with a quart of Marvel Tool oil in my high mileage gas cars for 4 years running without a hint of creeping lifter/bearing noise.
Anyway, Farout, let me know where you could contrive "operator error" on my part, and I'll reform my ways. My livelihood does not include flagrant burning of cash. If you "sensed" an abusive nature within my writing without empirical information, I wouldn't intimate that any perceived verbal cockiness of mine constitutes or connotes vehicle abuse, would you? That's a non-sequitur.
Not necessarily. If the topic were the Nissan Armada we don't expect that the Porsche Carrera GT would or should get equal time - and vice versa. We do have comparison topics which, coincidentally, are for comparable vehicles.
Good point, Tidester. And looking down the list of facts I would have highlighted different facts from what DrFill highlighted that would tend to favor the CRD and explain why I selected it over many other vehicles.
After about three weeks the engine light is on again and at this time came with code P1104,P0120,P1256,and P0540 which all of them mean problems. I been driving like this for about a week to see if they cancel. I try the battery trick but it didn't work. Could any body tell me what these codes means....... thanks
I will be checking on this myself this weekend. On some Detroit Diesels with the world trans the trans cooler is where coolant and AFT normally mix when the cooler fails. Why are they working on the trans if you have exhaust bleeding into your coolant system? Yes DC bought Detroit Diesel from Penski a few years ago. I was told that this egr valve is water cooled but haven't checked myself. I will check it out myself this weekend. Did you get your fluid samples? Also did you pull the dip sticks and see for yourself? I don't trust Dealers!!! Coolant cooled oil coolers don't have to be part of the rad assemblies. They normally are stand alone units. They look like cylinders with four hoses or lines going to them.
NO boat but it did have the V6. The guy driving it normally drives a BMW, the Mustang was a rental he drove it very hard.
I normally drive my CRD like it has a egg on the peddle, rarely, if ever, getting above 2300 RPM in daily driving. Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. I had a C20 Chevy once and it didn't like to be babied, 17-18 driving hard 11-12 when babied. That was back when you could still buy 106 octane pump fuel, and it had a 330HP 350 cu in small block.
P1104 MAF Ground Malfunction (mass airflow sensor near the radiator)
P0120 Throttle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Malfunction (now in the cabin above your feet, is under the hood on mine)
P1256 Pedal Correlation PDS1 and HPDS (in the controller itself)
P0540 Intake Air Heater Circuit (I don't know about this one)
Perhaps you should disconnect the battery ground and try reinserting the two large connectors on the engine control module (near the fuel filter). All these circuits come into the ecm. The ignition switch also plays a role here. See if you have another connector between the two. Don't panic
I need to top off my power steering fluid. In the manual it says to use only this type of fluid or it's equivalent. Guess what: I can't seem to find any here. Only Petro-Canada avertises it's equivalent. :sick:
I find it strange that the dealer does not carry this fluid. Can you get Amsoil in Europe? If so, use it. I have topped off my power steering with same and have had no ill effects. Had to add several ounces.
They're not saying anything about the transmission at this time...only soot and exhaust fumes in the coolant tank. Yes, the Dealer has stated the ERG value is water cooled and that is a possibilty. I should know more since their Diesel tech finally has the time to look at it. I am working on getting fluid samples...but it is already in the shop.
I think you can expect anywhere from 20 to 30 mpg....My lowest, in-city short trip mileage was 21 and my best highway (2-lane ~70mph) was 28.8. I think the estimated epa ratings are spot on. My last tank was 26.7 which had combined 80mph for 100 miles, mostly 70 mph the remainder with ac on for 150 miles.
atf+4 is dc tranny fluid. What are they using at the dealership?
winter2, you should not have to add ps fluid. Is your reservoir perfectly dry even at the lip of the plastic where it meets the metal base. 02/05 I bought a quart of atf+4 because my check in the morning with it cold was below the minimum. (It is easy to overfill and when hot you can see how high the fluid spins - this is for others who may also be overfilling the oil or have an underfilled tranny.) My old post talked about warped caps allowing fluid to escape. Saw a post about ps fluid elsewhere and saw another crd with a warped leaking cap. If any ps fluid outside, pull off the cap and check it. My was so bad you could rock it on the parts counter top. Now have a bottle of atf+4 gathering dust in the garage.
Maybe you're onto something. Crack the egg, make an omelette out of it and drive the Sucker hard. Blow the snot out of the EGR and she'll reward you with better gas mileage Well, atleast that's how mine treats me :shades:
Take it it a Detroit Diesel Repair shop. DC owned. They should be able to pick up the warranty. That's what they told me here in NJ. Haven't had any problems yet, I knock on my wooden desk as I type this of course.
How would you react if a (really good and serious) technician showed you a bottle with no sticker or any information on it? This should have been a Mopar specialty fluid he showed me last year or was it blessed water? I learned to live without it. Sad dhl doesn't like to carry liquids!
The level of the fluid in the reservoir was not even visible when the engine was hot. I looked in with the cap off and saw no fluid. Stuck a clean screw driver in and it came out dry. I have no leaks anywhere so it must have not been totally filled at the factory. Filled it while it was hot. Level at cold is right on the money and has not changed since I topped it off. There has been no spillage or overflow. I check for leaks monthly and there are none.
Comments
Down here in the Pee Dee region of the Palmetto state, we are up to 2.70/gal for gas and diesel is over 2.50/gal and rising! :surprise: Guess no matter what the fuel, all drivers are going to get the "oil company shaft"! But still, the cost per mile between diesel and gas for the same model (ie:Liberty) was around 2.5 cents less for the diesel when the cost of diesel was .20 cents more than gas. So now it is most certainly even better.
Also, in Taylors,SC there is plant under construction that will have capacity to produce 30 million gals of bio-diesel annually!! That should be good new to us here in SC and elsewhere.
So, yes, ROI is potentially much greater on automobiles if the concept, design, manufacturing, and assembly in conjunction with marketing, sales, and customer support are executed well.
And I've never gotten my "money back" from an automobile venture. I have, however, spread the loss across a greater number of years by retaining a paid-for auto and therefore enjoyed a reduced per-year loss. Time and reduced impulsivity conspire to imbue wisdom on the feeble.
Jones
If you like ruggedly built, long lasting, real 4wd that will get you through deep snow or off road obstacles Jeep is the way to go.
I don't know anyone that buys a SUV for 0-60 performance numbers.
BTW, this Jeep has less than 1000 miles and is only a couple of weeks old.
The date on the inside track of the driver's door says 02/06. I don't have my Jeep right now to give you any more info than that other than what is on the window sticker.
And it's such an honor to be a "leader" by purchasing a marketing ploy/toy that depreciates by 40% in 2 years (in this case more perhaps). In short, our wisdom is beyond our years, gents/lassies. The solidarity of the diesel engine is lost in the myriad of fiscally sucking issues that will undoubtedly appear vicariously in our monthly bottom lines.
The Liberty diesel that we have purchased clearly has a design flaw in the control of the powertrain system. Chrysler's massive budget-cutting push to standardize many of its parts has its advantages evinced in the reports to the shareholders, but they have used the new practice too liberally in their engineering execution. With a vehicle like this that is highly temperature sensitive (therefore requiring operational mapping in software much like the fly-by-wire vehicle systems of most of the 90's and newer aircraft), dependent on precise fuel release, that is matched to a Daimler transmission that was originally designed for a wider RPM-range V8 with a drastically different torque curve without the nuances of a turbo/lag; Daimler engineering should have spent much more time matching the factorial environmental conditions to the chosen components. (I should have shortened that sentence.) I work this very set of issues in aircraft where pito tubes, baro altimeters, inertial systems, rate gyros, temp sensors, strain gages, and accelerometers are all digitally sampled in conjunction with a set of full authority digital engine controlled turbo-fans for fly-by-wire aircraft control. We spend hundreds of thousands of man-hours simulating in software and testing in wind tunnels and then flying those aircraft.
Daimler has clearly cut corners in the test/verification department (Quality Assurance) and pushed this product to market prematurely. What a tragic way to "test" the user community by delivering a poorly "controlled" vehicle system with tendency to self-destruct. And they didn't make considerable improvement on the 2006 version that I just purchased as far as I can tell.
Jones
Saddle that RAV4 with a transfer case and a rear drive axle and see how really bad the numbers get for the RAV 4.
Scott
Excellent advice, goodcrd!
Good luck with the power of soy.
I had not heard about the Bio place in the upstate. I know that the state wanted to run the buses on B20. After nearly having to close the schools because of fuel supplies after Katrina I am supprised that they don't want to run them on B100. I would love the see all the fallow and abandon farm land in SC planted with Soy, corn, mustard, sugar cane, and Hemp. Interesting bit of triva for you. You can get more ethanol from an acre of Hemp than you can from an acre of corn and its much easier to grows. You would have to spray it with teen replant insted of bug repelant.
A fair comparison would be to hook both up to 5,000 pound trailers, drive 500 miles up and down some hills and compare the mileage. Oh, then go pull some stumps.
Really annoying as diesel in this area was lower than gas during the summer.
I have not found anyone carrying greater than B2 and mine doesn't like it.
I also think Biodiesel will soften rubber parts in higher concentrations. Since most of the benefits of biodiesel can be reaped even with small amounts added, I would err on the side of caution and not exceed the spec. It's like E85 which is also a bio fuel: they have to swap out some seals and hoses for steel ones to make the vehicles able to handle the fuel.
Personally I don't think there's any harm in running every 10th tank as B20 as long as it is on a trip and you just run it through in a day. It just makes me nervous to have it sitting there in the fuel system for a week at a time, eating away at vulnerable parts.
This is only my opinion, if you want to run biodiesel, I can think of lots of reasons why it is better for the environment, farmers and geopolitical serenity.
Good luck with your CRD.
I would hate to see the performance on a long 15 percent grade driving one of those empty. Imagine how many times the driver would have to downshift.
The liberty might have viton seals and lines which will survive BD. The libi is sold in euorpe with the CRD and BD is old news to the Euopeans who embrase it. I have heard that you would be hard pressed to find a filling station without Diesel fuel in germany and filling stations offering varing blends of BD are very common. I have also read that it is less expensive there because fuel prices are so much higher. Talk about hitting you in the wallet the english pay almost the same amount for a litter as we pay for a gallon.
I also towed a refrigerated food truck (5~tons) that had stalled and was blocking the road where I live. I feel the only limitation this truck has comes from the nature of the ground at the time you have to do something unexpected. I really need to get a reinforced tow eye
I agree with you about continuning problems...tried to get Chrysler to do a dealer swap...no dice. You would think they would want to stand behind their automobileS!!!
Besides a lawyer...any ideas on how to Chrysler's attention?
Tell them you want to buy a fleet ... but that you have a few "minor concerns!"
tidester, host
2) Fuel here in Ohio is $2.799 for both Diesel and gas. yesterday in Illinois, I was stations as high as $2.899 for gas, Diesel was $2.539
FWIW, my CRD is also happy running fresh diesel + Power Service Diesel Kleen. This seems to be the peppiest combination, but not as quiet as with B20. Diesel Kleen doesn't seem to help stale diesel, no surprise there.
Farout
Farout
My drive to work is all highway and I have averaged 23.2 mpg. :confuse:
The trip there and back was state highways but lots of traffic lights in many little small towns, which was also on the same tank.
I also raced a 2005 Mustang (I knew the driver) and he couldn't keep up with me on acceleration he had it floored, so take that you RAV4 and CRV people the CRD will move! :shades: :P (same tank)
Farout
Farout
Now for clarification, the Mustang you raced was towing a boat and had a v6 right?
So please understand where I am coming from, my grand kids say I am as old as dirt. But I didn't just get of the turnip truck yesterday either.
I think the issues I read about sorta fall into just a few areas. The first is operator error. These engines from V M Motori have been making these for DCX in Europe for nearly 15 years, with reasonable results from the consumers. Over 500,000 have been bought by DCX so far as of last OCT. So I think it's a pretty well proven engine. However, when all the diesel parts makers like DELPHI, BOSH, SIEMANS VDO, DENSO, and STANDYNE have stated firmly DO NOT USE ANY BIO FUEL HIGHER THAN B-5. That is because of FAME.(Fatty Acid Methyl Ester) fuels.
In a 9 page letter sent to me from Mr. Frabetti Nicola, V. M. Motori S.p.A. Service Dept. which he sent to me on April 4, 2006. In the nine page statement it says NOT to use any Bio fuel above B-5."Any evidence that the product has fallen short of the required level of performance directly due to the use of non-acceptable fuels will render the manufacturer's guarantee null and void." So is someone makes the choice to use B-90 they have no room to cry out the engine is no good. Or that the EGR or some other fule related problem that happens when using higher FAME fuels than said. The second problem is the oil used. Mr. Frabetti Nicola states that the use of synthetic 5-40w or 10-40w is what V.M. Motori and he states that is what Europe sues. When anyone so chooses to use for insistence 15-45w then they assume the responsibility for their choice of oil, even when the owners manual says not to.
If a person has followed the Owners Manual and then there is genuine warranty issues that DCX has to address. The transmission is a beefy one, and maybe it does need to be in a finer sync with the engine rpm.
I do not think "Daimler has clearly cut corners...". I am of the opinion that some have experimented in areas such as fuels and oil weight, that might have created some issues, or that might come up later in engine longevity.
As for losing 40% of the trucks value, I do not see that on any of the five auto value books. Again I think with proper care these will be a good investment. But assuming you are right, will even a 60% loss in value in 3 years so rip my financial future into little pieces? I doubt that it is not something any of could word through. In the big picture of life this Jeep Liberty is a passing thing that in ten years many may well be a only a memory of cars and trucks I once owned. It's only a man made machine to take me here and there. There are far more important issues than this CRD, like fishing with my wife and grand kids.
Farout
The shop told me that my Jeep had been accepted into some experimental group at DCX since it was the first CRD sale in southern Maryland. I'll get more information on what that means, but I'm guessing a DCX engineer is tagged to some experiements they'll be making on the non-standard torque converter and firmware updates made to my machine.
I also checked with the shop and they claimed the transmission cooler is co-located within the A/C evaporator and not part of the usual radiator arrangement. Bottom line there is that if the cooler goes bad, you get R-134a and lubricant in your ATF reservoir. I haven't checked under the hood to confirm that, so take the input with a grain of salt. If that's true, the only way you can get ethylene glycol in your ATF is if your block's main seal and transmission/torque converter seals/bushings simultaneously blow out and mix in the forward housing of the transmission--nearly an impossible situation. Coolant in the engine is a result of either an oil cooler leak (assuming it's part of the radiator) or head/head gasket problem.
And, I will be getting shop manuals when found/available and talking with the assigned engineer at DCX. I'm hoping I don't have to sign a non-disclosure agreement to be included in the dealer-DCX discourse. Otherwise, stay tuned.
And was Detroit Diesel ever bought by Mercedes?
Jones
LeRoy
I understand that some of you are having some real problems, and I hope you find a good dealer to help you out....these are great vehicles and are a ton of fun to drive. I appreciate everyone's info, though, about the problems you have had and the cures/fixes you have found. Keep the info coming....knowledge is power, and the more we all know, the quicker we will all be able to get our problems solved when/if they do occur.
PS--there's nothing like punching it in the morning and seeing the cloud of smoke in the headlights of the car behind you :shades:
Happy Dieseling!
Twocycle2
Just to follow up--here comes a bit of defensiveness: a fortitude check on your part, perhaps.
I don't take interest in the wares of biodiesel, and I do not plan to seek out any resellers of the stuff. If I happen to stop at a diesel filling station where biodiesel is present, I will probably ask if they have ULSD or straight petrol-based diesel. This forum can't support a technically proficient debate on polution and its effect on global warming so I'll refrain from opining. I would undoubtedly be seen as a kook after a theoretical deliverance on the topic, which isn't scary, but isn't useful.
I owned a Dodge Spirit for 6 years that my Dad bought for $2500. He eventually gave it to me after I had rebuilt the engine and reworked all but the computer system. I sold it with 300k miles on it for $1250 in 2001. I learned a lot during that time including how to take care of a vehicle, and the resale value should evince that. I have bought used cars since the Spirit(which was my first car), and each has my finger prints in sealed compartments. Until this CRD, I had never purchased a new car since I usually put 70k miles a year on autos and was a college student for much of that time. I have a decent income now, but $26k is still a lot to swallow for a mild miser like me. $26k buys a lot of clothes, food, house (in the deep south), etc.
Forty percent depreciation in 2 years is a reality for Jeeps at the moment. Just check out the Carmax sites which list many a Liberty. There is a listing (and it's not a loner)for an '04 Jeep Liberty 6-cylinder that sold new for $25k+tax/fees = $26k. 40% of that is $10.4k, right equating to a vehicle price of ~$15.5k? This particular Liberty has a sunroof and other niceties and mileage commensurate with 2 years usage (50k miles). It's selling for $15k+tax/fees = $16k, which is $10k lower than selling price. That's ~40%. Even blue book for the thing is only $16k, which is roughly 34% lower value than purchase price. I'm telling you, JEEP SUV resale right now is blowing big cheese. But so what. Drive 'em, love 'em or not.
With regard to MY CRD: I haven't changed the oil, and I haven't revved the engine beyond 3k rpm. I just picked the jeep off the dealer lot on 30 March, and have taken my children to church and driven 3 miles to work for 4 days in a row--no towing, no 0-60-0 tests, no hard braking, no pulsing the gas, no O/D disarming, nada. I know abuse--my Suzuki SV650 bike and my body flying from it have seen abuse for hundreds of miles--both without buckling...but that's a different story. I do plan to use straight Rotella T 5w40 from Wally world at $13/gallon when I do the oil changes. I've been using that brand/type with a quart of Marvel Tool oil in my high mileage gas cars for 4 years running without a hint of creeping lifter/bearing noise.
Anyway, Farout, let me know where you could contrive "operator error" on my part, and I'll reform my ways. My livelihood does not include flagrant burning of cash. If you "sensed" an abusive nature within my writing without empirical information, I wouldn't intimate that any perceived verbal cockiness of mine constitutes or connotes vehicle abuse, would you? That's a non-sequitur.
Jones
Not necessarily. If the topic were the Nissan Armada we don't expect that the Porsche Carrera GT would or should get equal time - and vice versa. We do have comparison topics which, coincidentally, are for comparable vehicles.
tidester, host
I normally drive my CRD like it has a egg on the peddle, rarely, if ever, getting above 2300 RPM in daily driving. Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. I had a C20 Chevy once and it didn't like to be babied, 17-18 driving hard 11-12 when babied. That was back when you could still buy 106 octane pump fuel, and it had a 330HP 350 cu in small block.
P1104 MAF Ground Malfunction (mass airflow sensor near the radiator)
P0120 Throttle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Malfunction (now in the cabin above your feet, is under the hood on mine)
P1256 Pedal Correlation PDS1 and HPDS (in the controller itself)
P0540 Intake Air Heater Circuit (I don't know about this one)
Perhaps you should disconnect the battery ground and try reinserting the two large connectors on the engine control module (near the fuel filter). All these circuits come into the ecm.
The ignition switch also plays a role here. See if you have another connector between the two.
Don't panic
I find it strange that the dealer does not carry this fluid. Can you get Amsoil in Europe? If so, use it. I have topped off my power steering with same and have had no ill effects. Had to add several ounces.
I think you can expect anywhere from 20 to 30 mpg....My lowest, in-city short trip mileage was 21 and my best highway (2-lane ~70mph) was 28.8. I think the estimated epa ratings are spot on. My last tank was 26.7 which had combined 80mph for 100 miles, mostly 70 mph the remainder with ac on for 150 miles.
Gary
winter2, you should not have to add ps fluid. Is your reservoir perfectly dry even at the lip of the plastic where it meets the metal base. 02/05 I bought a quart of atf+4 because my check in the morning with it cold was below the minimum. (It is easy to overfill and when hot you can see how high the fluid spins - this is for others who may also be overfilling the oil or have an underfilled tranny.) My old post talked about warped caps allowing fluid to escape. Saw a post about ps fluid elsewhere and saw another crd with a warped leaking cap. If any ps fluid outside, pull off the cap and check it. My was so bad you could rock it on the parts counter top. Now have a bottle of atf+4 gathering dust in the garage.
Well, atleast that's how mine treats me :shades:
http://detroitdiesel.com/Service_Locator/
I learned to live without it.
Sad dhl doesn't like to carry liquids!
The level of the fluid in the reservoir was not even visible when the engine was hot. I looked in with the cap off and saw no fluid. Stuck a clean screw driver in and it came out dry. I have no leaks anywhere so it must have not been totally filled at the factory. Filled it while it was hot. Level at cold is right on the money and has not changed since I topped it off. There has been no spillage or overflow. I check for leaks monthly and there are none.