Toyota Sienna 2004+

mdell2 · November 2003

My van has the "jerking" problem when accelarate from 10 MPH. Someone posted the following message. Does anyone have the similar problem?

I visited my dealer today where they upgraded the transmission software to supposedly eliminate the problem of the "jerking" at low speeds when turning a corner. From my invoice it states: Updated ECM and transmission per TSB TC007-03 TC3001 .8 T1 26 T2 99 89661-09101. I drove back in heavy rain and some snow so I have not really had much of a chance to determine if it eliminated the problem or not but thought I would pass this on for any interested.

kmead · November 2003

Some have gotten it and liked the difference, others have not noticed a difference.

I would have it done and see.

user777 · November 2003

so...this tsb has nothing to do with VSC right?

how does an ECM know you're cornering?

please tell me this tsb would improve the performance of engine and transmission regardless of driver on the straight or in a curve.

something isn't adding up if not.

kmead · November 2003

The TSB reflashes the PROM for the transmission ECU. The transmission ECU is connected to the main ECU which is very much connected to the VSC.

However I don't think the VSC was responsible for the issue, in my limited view it was more the base programming of the transmission shift points relative to vehicle speed.

I now have the complete repair manual with all of the wiring diagrams. This, like most vehicles now, is one complex machine with an amazing amount of interconnection between systems that are controllled by by several ECUs that talk to a main ECU by way of a multiplexed communication system.

So the tranny ECU knows what the vehicle speed is, plus the engine speed, plus the throttle opening. Meanwhile the VSC ECU knows all the tranny knows plus the steering wheel angular direction, the G force of the turning produced, the relative rotation of each wheel and it then can adjust the engine speed, braking for each wheel, and adjust all these parameters several times a second. Yeah they are connected.

But to reiterate, I don't think the VSC system is at the root of the problem, it is the programming of the tranny relative to speed and throttle position. It keeps the tranny in too high a gear going around the corner and then takes a while to shift down into the right gear for the acceleration the driver is calling for with their right foot.

mdell2 · November 2003

It has nothing to do with the VSC. My van has this typical jerking problem, but it does not has VSC.

mdell2 · November 2003

What does it learn from a driver? How hard we press they peddle? How fast we accelarate from the stop? The driving condition?

And how does it respond to individual driving habit? Varying the speed of up or down shifting? Sensitivity of throttle?

wwest · November 2003

That the VSC will prevent a downshift simultaneous with WOT and a hard turn. Or it might simply dethrottle (hesitate) and then downshift.

Anti-rollover stuff.

kmead · November 2003

Adaptive systems are continually learning our habits. They use various sensors, thottle position for one, the gear, the speed, actual engine load (rpm to vacuum) and so on to know what is going on.

Yes it does all of those things to respond and likely others.

We all have different habits, I for example tend to accelerate pretty moderately to 3500 rpm in most of my cars before shifting using only part throttle. I suspect my techniques drive others nuts as I tend to be looking way down the road at the next light, where others accelerate all the way to the light. I tend to get all my braking done before the corner so I can accelerate around the corner, allowing me to modulate the line around the corner by either gettng into the gas or letting off (to go wider or tighten the line respectively). My wifes habits are different but similar as I taught her to drive standard (the only kind of car we have had in the last 21 years), but she does drive differently. As our Sienna will be almost always driven by her, when I drive it will be trying to learn my habits so during that transition from driver to driver, it will likely not drive the way we would like or expect.

We live in a locale with few hills, don't have to really accerate hard except for the rare occaisions where we don't have alot of room on an entrance ramp (rarely, or when we go to Chicago). It will be loping along at 25 for much of the time it is running as we only have the 1 speed limit in our city. When we go to Vermont each year, there is a 13 hour drive across flat Canadian land followed by the extreme hilliness of Vermont (large throttle openings) and then the coastal plain of New Hampshire. All will have different effects on the manner the vehicle will behave and learn.

There are other adaptive systems in modern cars too, specifically the fuel injection system, over time makes corrections in its running parameters as it wears, leaks develop and so on. It uses temperature, vacuum, oxygen sensors (2 now of days), throttle position, and so on to adjust the engine.

VSC MAY prevent a downshift simultaneous with WOT and a hard turn if there is insufficient traction as shown by wheel spin sensed by a ABS sensor on one wheel relative to the others. It may also reduce throttle, reduce ignition timing, reduce fuel injected, apply a brake or some other strategy depending on speed and or severity of wheel spin.

wwest · November 2003

But BMW currently has a system that allows the "VSC" to counter-steer against the driver's own steering inputs if it deems it necessary due to exceedingly high yaw sensor inputs.

I think I want to get off this technology parade NOW!

kmeadv2 · November 2003

Sorry its too late. Living in the integration age where mechanical systems are completely dependent on ECUs for many functions as well as every attempt to save you from yourself means you are just the loose nut behind the wheel.

Your only real choice is to start buying older cars. My Fiats are nice and easy to work on. No start? OK, got gas? check Got spark? nope, change points and condenser and wallah running car. Try that with something built since 1990.

marlenelin · November 2003

I finally got to test drive a Sienna this weekend. Ours is due into the dealer sometime this week. However, I found that in order to get this 4 ft 10 body into the back seats without struggling, I'm going to need a running board. Is that something I should have my dealer install before picking up the van, or should I have it done locally after bringing it home? Do I need to have a Toyota dealership do it? Thanks Marlene

user777 · November 2003

thanks for the inside scoop on the complexity of the system. sounds like a modern fly-by-wire airliner.

so there was this: "upgraded the transmission software to supposedly eliminate the problem of the "jerking" at low speeds when turning a corner"

really all i was thinking was hey - this van *MUST* exhibit jerking at low speed when NOT turning a corner as well. otherwise, something is not right.

didn't mean to drop back to the VSC discussion - but it's none-the-less good to hear someone without VSC software also experienced the jerking in the turns. whew!

understood...people tend to drive corners differently than others.

all the hype about "adaptive" expert systems technology which "learns" per the drivers inputs... if it was really "smart" - that situation with the "jerking" would be handled (eventually).

no need for the human to re-assert authority and command a reflash.

but seriously, looks like someone fundamentally mis-parameterized the prototypical driving envelope for a portion of the population.

things that make you go hmmmm.

maybe the technology should be training up (not its own parametric tables), but rather the humans and their driving technique...

the future of driving...soon we will have no choice.

LOL.

stickguy · November 2003

you certainly can have them added to the van before you get it. If it hasn't yet reached "port", I believe they would be added there. If not, the dealer can put them on.

You could certainly get them aftermarket, but since the Sienna is so new, you might have to go with the OEM parts anyway. Plus the hassle of getting it done. Much easier to deal with a problem if Toyota or the dealer screws up before you buy the van, instead of an aftermarket shop once you own it.

kmeadv2 · November 2003

Apparently at this time, a dealer cannot add factory running boards. They have to be installed either at "port" or at the factory. This info is from a couple of dealer sources that are reliable and knowledgeable.

wwest · November 2003

all that running boards are good for.

wwest · November 2003

...

romie1 · November 2003

After taking my foot off the gas or letting up on it in traffic, then coasting for a few seconds,when I accelerate again there is a "clunk" that I can hear and feel in my foot on the gas pedal. This is very annoying and so far the dealer has been no help. Other than this the transmission seems fine. Has anyone else experienced this? I've been told it might be normal for this car (the torque converter clicking back in), or have something to do with my driving style.

dako_tian · November 2003

No, I'm afraid you just got a "clunker." ;-)

Sorry, I just could not resist. But seriously, it doesn't sound normal to me and most likely will show up as a real problem over time. You can at least keep reporting the problem every time you go in for service. Be sure and keep those receipts and it will give you the necessary paper trail if/when the underlying problem shows its ugly head.

user777 · November 2003

if others indicate this is different from what they experience, why don't you ask to drive another '04 with a tech and try to replicate, then presuming you don't experience it, ask to drive your '04, thus proving your's isn't "normal for this car", nor "something to do with...driving style" ?

sarniasting · November 2003

romie1 - I have read on other boards that this has been a problem with others. I am not an expert by any means and perhaps others such as kmead can provide a better insight on the problem. Toyota has issued a TSB, # TC007-03 to repair the problem to dealers. As I understand, it is a change to the computer program for the transmission. Talk to your service manager and mention the above TSB. I hope this helps.

aggie76 · November 2003

Spouse and I spent last night looking at the van and were very impressed. Anyone shed light on why they have decided not to include memory seating on any level on the Sienna? Seems strange on the $40k vehicle that with all the other luxury options this is one they don't offer even though it is in the Avalon and maybe other models.

nematode · November 2003

I drove the LE FWD and found SOME of the transmission behavior really annoying. I noticed the same basic behavior as others have pointed out but never heard a clunk. I did feel some "kickback" or "feed back" in the accelerator and there was a noise but it was more of click (and not very loud). When driving around the light to light you may not notice the lag and hard shift (I did not). Shift quality at most times is excellent and smooth. There are two major problems:
1) Any time you accelerate quickly from a slow speed there is a really long lag probably close to half a second. Its really annoying.
2) The other behavior happens when you accelerate to merge on a highway then coast and then accelerate again to pass in fairly rapid succession. There is a lag of almost 1 second before a hard shift happens and you have power again.

I have only driven one sample so it may not be significant but it was annoying. The Nissan and Honda vans dont this because I try the same thing with all of them and take them through the same loop. I'm driving the XLE Leather at Lou Fusz Toyota later this week or weekend. They actually bought one just to have as a test driver so its there full time.

Other than that its a really nice van.

nematode · November 2003

Yesterday evening I got a call from Ackerman Toyota saying they had new Siennas. They got 4 and one sold from the time I got the call to the time I was able to get there (4 hours) and people were in line to test drive the other three. I'm sure they will all sell pretty fast. So I got to test drive an XLE with leather, a CE base (with the fake wood) and another LE. None of them had the annoying transmission behavior. These three shifted perfectly no matter the condition. Slow to fast....fast to slow.....there was no loss of power or kickback. I should mention they were all under 50 miles on the ODO.

bushaw · November 2003

I want to buy winter tires (all around) for my 2004 Sienna XLE Limited FWD. I'm planning to buy steel wheels for the tires plus wheel covers (e.g., a TireRack.com winter package). The XLE has 225/60R17 tires, but TireRack.com recommends 215/65QR16 (Blizzak WS-50) winter tires. Since they'll be mounted them on their own wheels, 16" vs 17" (not to mention 215 vs. 225; 65 vs. 60) shouldn't matter, should it? My local mechanic suggests making sure the 16" wheel clears the brake calipers. Has anyone been through this? Do I need to stick with the 225/60R17 tires?

Thanks.

rtaaop · November 2003

I just bought a Sienna '04 XLE Limited and I, too, have noticed a "clunk" when letting off the gas and reengaging the accelerator. The transmission reengages or downshifts with a disturbing "clunk" as romie1 suggests. I have less than 1000 miles on the car and in addition have noticed a lot of seat rattles, another clunking sound that appears to be coming from the rear of the car, intermittent, but that sound occurs often enough to get your attention.
I suspected that the noise was coming from something that was dragging and that it periodically slam up under the body of the van. A visual inspection did not spot anything of this sort. Anyone else have a similar experience?

wwest · November 2003

You need to be cautious about the brake caliper and the struts, especially in the rear. Toyota "cautions" that snow chain can only be used on the front, NEVER the rear, apparently due to rear strut clearance.

Use of snow chains ONLY on the front can potentially be very hazardous so the issue at the rear must be very seriosu for Toyota to recommend this extreme.

kmead · November 2003

All Siennas 04 use the same brakes whether with 17 or 16" wheels, so in this particular case this is not an issue. There are many cars with high performance packages that have larger brakes to handle the increased performance of the vehicle.

Although a good thing to point out by your mechanic, in this case it doesn't apply.

hatcher8 · November 2003

Has any one found any other helpful Seinna 2004 message boards????
sarniasting mentioned in message #1238 that he had seen a TSB listed "on another board" describing a 2004 transmission issue. What other message boards are out there for us??

rodc1 · November 2003

depending on trim level or package chosen you can have front disc/rear drum vs. 4 wheel disc brakes.

lekn · November 2003

Hi hatcher8, unfortunately, you won't get an answer here, as Edmunds is very strict about not allowing any mention of other discussion boards. Any links or even a casual mention would result in message deletion and a warning by the host/moderator.

kmead · November 2003

My apologies, I forgot that, but the total diameter does not change with the different solutions. On another forum there are quite a few individuals that are using alternative rims.

The rims from a RAV4, Highlander, or the Camry will all work. The RAV4 rims are a slightly different offset, but not enough to be an issue.

I bought my OEM steel rims and caps from a fellow Sienna owner who changed to Camry rims.

kmead · November 2003

Yes there are, but they cannot be referred to here for good reasons. In the past they allowed references to alternative sites, but it turned into a way for schills to advertise their website for free.

If you look at the member agreement we all accepted, it lays this out in very clear legalese : )

As this site needs to pay for the bandwidth it uses, it is sponsored by companies that pay for the ad space, like the Tire Rack as seen in the lower left corner.

The best I can say is do a search, but even that may get my post deleted and me banished, which I would rather not have happen.

lovemyaccords · November 2003

Geez, I just figured out why my gas mileage has only been 22 mpg - I have been driving in 4 and not D - it is very easy to mix this up when new to the car and the dealer never specifically mentioned this. The gated shifter has 4 and D on the same horizontal row - I thought when I first went down to "4D" that it was not "hooked" into D, so moved it to the left where it felt more correct - but this is actually 4, DUH! I thought drive was just called 4/D as in "the same thing". Man, so I have been driving in "4" the whole time I have had the car, like 3-1/2 weeks now. I am used to driving stick, where 4 or 5 is the normal driving gear and I guess I just got mixed up. I feel awful as I was VERY late getting to a dog show after getting stuck in traffic, and (OK, don't gasp) but had it up to almost 90 on part of that trip - in 4.
Please tell me I didn't ruin the engine or transmission or shorten it's life! The car seems fine, but I am really worried now, especially since this was during the breaking-in period, the first 768 miles I put on it.

The good news is that I took it out, re-set the trip meter and DRIVING IN THE CORRECT GEAR I am now getting 28.5 mpg on the highway instead of 22.

Thanks to this forum, I realized what I had been doing wrong!

Kirstie_H · November 2003

kmead - you're fine

hatcher8, you might check in our Technical Service Bulletins discussion. If you ask your question in that topic, there are some technicians who usually drop in and post the TSB.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

lobored · November 2003

I currently own a 1998 Sienna which has been an excellent vehicle. Unfortunately, I have developed fairly major back problems; and our Sienna seats have become most uncomfortable for me. We plan to buy either a Sienna,Quest, or Odyssey this week.

I like the new Sienna the best, but I am concerned about the seat comfort on long trips - especially after reading the long term test on Edmunds. We are looking at the XLE model with the 8 way power seat.

I would appreciate any comments about the comfort and support of the front seats that any of you can provide.

kinct · November 2003

Rather than getting rid of an older car just because of the seats, have you considered getting aftermarket seats?

Recaro seats (there may be others) are _nice_. I don't own them but on a few occasions have driven in cars with them. They make a range of seats, some specifically designed for people w/ back problems (including FDA approved seats).

The nice thing is, if you "grow attached" to the seats, you can move them to future cars. They come with some mounting hardware for installing in a variety of cars.

I would suspect that this would be far superior to any standard seat (short of Porsche or something like that - I believe they already use Recaro seats).

stever · November 2003

Thanks, Kirstie. There´s another discussion I didn´t even know was here :-)

Steve, Host

pmcb48 · November 2003

I am interested in a 2004 XLE. The only option package with Navigation system, which I like, is #19. However, this package doesn't have rear disks, and traction control systems--basically everything in option package #1. Yet when I try to include package #1 with #19, Carsdirect.com web site tells me I must de-select #1. Do I have to decide between Package #16, with all options short of Navigation, including rear disk brakes, or Package #19, giving up rear disk brakes, the various traction systems, daytime running lights, and heated wipers just to get the navigation system? This doesn't make sense. Why do all the other option packages include #1, and the top package, #19, doesn't seem to?

chiaw · November 2003

hence you do get VSC and host of goodies

pmcb48 · November 2003

Chiaw--I would like to see in print somewhere the exact contents of package 19. Carsdirect.com helps by saying, e.g., that Pkg 2 is "Pkg 1 plus disk brakes." On the other hand, read below the paragraph from Edmunds.com's Long-Term 2004 Sienna road test, elsewhere on this site: they drove an XLE with Pkg#19, and specifically said it still had rear drum brakes, because rear disk brakes and all the other goodies in Pkg#1 weren't available with #19. That doesn't make sense. If I had to chose between Pkg #16 and all the safety stuff in #1 vs Pkg#19 with NAV but without all Pkg#1, I would go with #16.

(Article follows): To this we added Package #19. As you've likely noticed, Sienna option packages can be confusing because there are lots of them and they're all numbered  making it difficult to differentiate between them. In any case, this large package set us up with 17-inch wheels; leather upholstery; a rear DVD entertainment system (with two pairs of wireless headphones); a DVD-based navigation system; second- and third-row side sunshades; a moonroof; and seat-mounted side airbags for the front occupants and side curtain airbags for all three rows. The price of this package is an incredible $7,040, but the total MSRP was still only $36,605  less than the MSRP of our not-as-well equipped '01 Grand Caravan ES. Oddly enough, though, our well-equipped van still has rear drum brakes. Rear disc brakes are available on the Sienna XLE, along with stability control, but none of the packages that contain these items are available with Package #19.

player4 · November 2003

Does anybody knows a web site to build the 2004 Sienna. Because I went to www.toyota.com and I wanted to build it with the XLE package # 14, but they only show packages XLE 9, and XLE 16 on the XLE FWD 7 Pass, 5-Speed AUTO. So I decided build it with package XLE 9 and Carpeted Floor Mats and Door Sill protectors as an Accesorie, and it all came up to $32,166. But still I want to know what web site I can go to and biuld it with the things I want in it.

player4 · November 2003

The price of the XLE Package 12 is $3,870.00, and the price of the XLE Package 14 is $4,845.00. Now, Package 12 is altogether XLE Packages 1,4,7,8,9,10, and 11. What is the difference between Packages XLE 12, and 14? Package 12 has the 17" 5-Spoke Aluminum Alloy Wheels while PAckage 14 does not, and the weird thing is that with 17's Package 12 is almost $1,000.00 bucks LESS than Package 14 when they both have the exact same things except for the 17" Alloys. What the Heck is goin' on???????????? That is like Toyota charging Sienna customers $1,000.00 for the 17" 5-Spoke Aluminum Alloy Wheels, can you believe that??

kmead · November 2003

Here at Edmunds, you can build any model with any option and get nearly the correct invoice information to boot.

cpstech · November 2003

Does package 12 have a single or 6 disc CD player?

ralpi · November 2003

Package 14 has a power moonroof and 6 disc cd changer, with 16" wheels/tires. Package 12 has 17" wheels/tires, but no moonroof and single CD.

player4 · November 2003

Package 12 is packages 1,4,7,8,9,10, and 11. packages 7,8,9,10 have the Moonroof, and packages 7,9,10 have the 6- disc indash CD player. The diff are the 17's. If you guys have the 04 Sienna Brochure you will see what im talking about if you dont have it request it at toyota.com

jvp06 · November 2003

When you build a vehicle on toyota.com it asks you for your zip code. Once you click ok, it will only show you the models and packages that are in that specific area. It is very misleading since you can order a sienna with the package you want on it in that same area.

player4 · November 2003

When i was building the 04 sienna with the XLE 7- Pass 5-Speed auto FWD it asked me for my zip code and it is 40241 and it only showed packages XLE 9 and 16. Why is This??? Thats why i went to vehix.com and i found out the thing with packages XLE 12, and XLE 14.

jiah · November 2003

Hi, does anyone own or is looking for a 8 passenger Senna. I'm looking for a 8 passenger because I have 2 toddlers and would like to have both baby seats installed on the second row plus the seat for an adult. My local dealer told me that the 8 passenger's second raw won't fit 2 baby seats plus space for an adult. Does anyone have similar experience and could share with me.

Many thanks!

lando622 · November 2003

I didn't see this mentioned in previous factory/after-market DVD player discussions...

If you get the factory DVD system, can you listen to it through the rear audio system without the headphones, or are the headphones required to hear the movie sound? Thanks.

Toyota Sienna 2004+

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