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Toyota Sienna 2004+
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Comments
Question - I'm under the impression that the Sienna (non-AWD) ships with a spacesaver (donut)spare tire. Do you know if one of the standard tire/rims will fit in the space under the seat for the spare or would a flat have to be stowed somewhere else?
i am sure the regular tire will fit under there but the ground clearance will be a bit lower. The donut is probably very near the lowest point of the vehicle.
Assuming the donut and standard tire have about the same overall diameter (the only difference being tire width), I see no reason why a flat tire wouldn't fit in the spare tire cavity under the car while the donut was being used (since, as deepan pointed out, the standard tire would simply hang a little lower due to its wider width).
This assumes the donut and standard tire have approximately the same diameter (which is generally necessary to prevent undue wear on the differential when using tires with different diameters).
Where did you read that a flat would need to be placed inside the vehicle rather than in the spare tire space?
Was this also the case with the previous gen. Sienna?
Has anyone actually tried putting a full size spare underneath. My suspicion is that it will fit but due to the "newer" clearance toyota doesnt want anyone to try it. And besides these are big 16" wheels and weigh quite a bit.
Quote from the manual: Wrap the flat tire in the tire bag and stow temporarily in the luggage
compartment. The tire bag is stored with the jack handle.
As the tire carrier is designed for the compact spare tire, the standard tire cannot be stored there.
My van doesn't have a magic seat or AWD so the full size spare hangs underneath. It came with a space saver, but I bought a new rim and tire when it was new to put under there.
When I have a flat, the flat tire goes inside the cabin along with whatever else is in there. It's enough of a pain to have to put the spare on; I've never taken the time to crank the flat back underneath while en route to a service station.
One of those flats was on the mud and gravel of the Trans-Labrador Highway 50 miles from a service station and the van was full of camping gear, coolers, two mountain bikes (inside!), canoe paddles, you name it. It was still easier to bag the spare and toss it inside.
So I think it's mostly a non-issue, although I would prefer to have a full size spare. My durn Outback has a space-saver, and a full size won't fit in the spare tire space.
Steve, Host
"My husband and I were told by 2 separate dealers that they are not safe for small children. The reasoning given by these salesmen was that the force of the airbags deploying would pressurize the inside of the vehicle to the extent that it could severally damage immature lungs."
I want to roll on the floor laughing, but who knows? Comments?
Steve, Host
I've been following the Sienna topic for quite some time, and it's time to think about a minivan, with two children and another on the way. We've looked at most of the 'import' minivans. Really the Mazda MPV and the Toyota Sienna are my top two choices. After driving both of them, they each have their good and bad points for me. The Mazda is a sporty thing, small and agile. The Toyota is more confortable, much quieter and relaxed. The materials in the Limited version are a few notches better than the ES version of the MPV as well.
So, I'm trying to decide between an ES MPV or an XLE Limited (AWD) Sienna, but the run flats have me wondering if I would want this vehicle. Generally, we don't have flats, but I would hate to be on a 300 mile road trip and have a puncture with no where to fix a run flat tire. I suppose a can of Fix-o-Flat, as nasty as those are, could help me. But I have a question regarding the rims...
Are the rims any different that use the run flat tires, or can I just swap out some nice Michelins or other tire for them?
Also, my dealer is saying that they only charge MSRP for Siennas. Is anyone paying less than list for them?
Thanks.
My Sienna LE AWD came with runflat tires mounted on regular rims. You can put regular tire on the rim, but your choices for 225/60R17 tires are very limited (check tirerack.com). If RFT tires are replaced with regular tires, you should buy spare rim/tire to have in the minivan all the time (the designated space is inside the van behind left portion of the third row – it then can not be folded into the floor).
My plan is to wear out RFTs, and then replace them with the regular tires. In the meanwhile I ordered a 15” rim with 225/70R15 tire as a spare from tirerack.com. I keep spare in my garage for local driving, and take it with the van if driving further than 50 miles from home.
In order to save space inside, on my latest trip to Cape Cod, I mounted spare on the hitch mounted bike rack post (between the post and rear hatch) using wheel-mounting U-Bolt which I bought for $10 from the marine trailers place.
As a side note, I would not use Fix-o-Flat on RFTs. I would rather buy spare rim/tire and carry it in the van.
I paid MSRP-$500 (ignoring “warning” from the dealer that they are selling at prices ABOVE MSRP) back on April 28, when the Siennas (AWD especially) were in really short supply, so you should do better now.
I saw that particular post in the Sienna Pricing discussion regarding the side curtain airbags; I started to compose a really smart reply but thought better of it.....8^)
Good point about just letting the tires run out. Of course, there is always roadside assistance. Or, just buying a spare and like you suggested, keeping it in the garage while in-town, and taking it with on a trip. Best plan, actually.
So, the rims are just typical rims and you *don't* have to run RFTs on them? I recall the old Michelin tires of the '80s that were non-standard and had special rims. Gads! I was hoping that wasn't happening all over again.
I did also come across a study of the noise deploying airbags make resulting in minor hearing loss, but the decibels involved were comparable to those of crashes without airbags.
It seems hard to believe that Toyota would risk alienating its target market for the Sienna (people transporting kids) if more airbags might pose a severe pressurization hazard -- considering that said airbags are a big selling point. I do have to wonder, though, what's going on when Toyota dealers are discouraging customers with kids from buying Siennas, and giving this as a reason.
Is new information coming to light? Or is it just an urban legend?
Perhaps said Toyota dealers were simply trying to move stock on hand (without side curtain airbags). I've heard some fairly outlandish stuff spouted by salesmen who are attempting to close on a sale; especially when they've got a unit on hand which is a very close match to what the customer wants except for one item.
Or perhaps the salesmen just didn't know what the heck he was talking about......nawwwwwww....
I was wondering because I went to a Honda dealer and when I asked them about availability of side curtain airbags, he said something negative about them due to the force that they deploy with. I thought he might be saying this because they're not available on the Odyssey but are on the Sienna and Quest.
An analogy would be the first generation front air bags that were designed for "average" men and tended to injure women and smaller individuals who had to sit closer to the steering wheel to reach the controls.
Now we have depowered second generation front air bags, and I suspect the side air bags will be modified as time goes by to address the sleeping kid issue.
Steve, Host
I think in the case of race car races and accidents, everyone is (in general) going in the same direction, unless it's a demolition derby.
That's a major difference between their crashes and our everyday crashes.
they also have roll-bar / crash-cages don't they? we don't these to prevent another car penetrating into the passenger space. your van and my van doesn't have these heavy duty bars, although it might have extra re-enforcements in the doors and sides. anyone got a good isometric exploded view of a mini-van?
re: going in the same direction...an analogy (maybe appropos, maybe not): it was once explained to me that when merging on the highway, you're not likely to incurr as serious a collision if you are at similar speed and just glance off another car in the process of the merge. you are supposed to merge at speed (although I've seen some wacky freeway entrance designs where people are paced with lights; they must come to a complete stop and wait for their light, then in limited distance accelerate back up to speed and merge...
I've seen people comming onto the highway at what seemed like 10 or 20MPH (that's what it seems like when you're doing 70
in a racing environment, everyone is always in the process of a merge really, unless they are spun. but near the beginning of their spin, their speed is almost the same as the person that hits them...it's results in more of a tap...and you know, the spin situation becomes more and more serious as they continue to slow and come to a complete stop or if they hit the wall; we know, those can be fatal.
the bags i believe are designed to assist when there is a major hit which is perpendicular to your car (side airbags), or there's a rapid decelleration because you've hit a stationary object (light pole or tree) or an oncomming vehicle (front airbags).
personally, i would think my children would be safer in a vehicle with side curtains, if for no other reason than to have them act as a barrier to glass and other flying debris. but that is a super uneducated belief...i'd like to know more about the technology too.
anyone got a link to side-curtain bag tests, maybe in MPEG movie format?
A vehicle is engineered to protect you in accidents of a particular severity. The test standards are for a 30 mph crash into a barrier head on. There is also a side impact test using a rolling sled. These are government tests. There is also the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety that has adopted more severe European type tests that occur at a higher rate of speed and are offset so that only one half of the front of the car is hit, applying much more load on less of the vehicle.
The first part of the accident involves the structure of the vehicle hitting the barrier or being hit by the sled. The vehicle begins decellerating while your body continues at the initial speed. Eventually the car slows enough that you start moving forward in the cabin at the same time the airbag begins to inflate, your body starts stretching the seatbelt which starts to slow you down to the speed of the car (approaching 0). You continue forward into the airbag now fully inflated and the seatbelt is very stretched out. You hit the airbag and slow nearly to a a stop, the airbag is deflating, the seatbelt is stretching to its limit and you begin to rebound within the seat.
All of this occurs in less time than it takes you to blink your eye.
You may have burns on your hands (from the airbag), burns and severe bruises on your shoulder and across your upper abdomen and chest (from the seatbelt) and maybe even abrasions on your cornea (because you can't close your eyes fast enough before you hit the airbag). You may have leg injuries depending on the quality of the structure of the car, and maybe even some head injuries if your face bottomed out on the steering wheel or if you hit the A or B pillar of the car as you rebound back into your seat. You are alive and likely conscious. This is good.
The seat belt kept you in position as you continued forward in the car and began to dissipate your speed. It also kept you in the car through any secondary impacts. Had the airbag not gone off the seat-belt might have broken your pelvis and likely several of your ribs, damaged your spleen and bruised many of your internal organs. Your face would be badly injured as you hit the steering wheel and likely continued on to hit the windshield requiring substantial plastic surgery. In addition you might have a broken femur and knee injuries from hitting the instrument panel. In all likely hood you will live but will take an extensive recovery with physical therapy. This is also good but not what we all wish for.
Without the airbag or the seat-belt, you might brace yourself as best you could and impact the interior of the vehicle and quite possibly exit through the windshield hitting the other car or even be run over by your own. If you are lucky you may live.
In a side impact there is much less structure to slow the car and you before you start hitting hard objects with your soft body. The seat-belt will likely keep you from being ejected but the force of the vehicle that hit you will drive into your side and you are likely to break the side glass with your head and bounce it off the hood of the car that hit you. You are very likely to die from head injuries or having major crushing trauma to your primary organs.
With a side airbag, the airbag will inflate to protect your torso. Your head may still break the glass and may hit the hood of the other car. You are much more likely to live. If the side airbag in your car also had head extensions (as some do) you are likely to survive with limited injuries.
With side airbags and head curtain airbags the airbags deploy alongside your head and torso (one bag from the seat or door for your torso and another bag from the roof to protect your head) protecting your entire side. As an added benefit the side curtain airbag also deploys in the rear seat protecting your rear passengers head from hitting the glass, pillar or hood of the opposing vehicle. This will save your life and your rear passengers life in all likelihood.
This is a description of what happens, if you want to see it in slow motion the IIHS website has excellent footage of many tests with expectations for injury ratings here: http://www.hwysafety.org/news_releases/2003/pr061703.htm The information available here should convince most anyone of the efficacy of seat-belt and airbags.
As for race car drivers, the cars are built like tanks with soft ends that dissipate energy and they wear seat-belts that are made up of 5 or more straps 3 or even 4 inches wide. The belts are tightened so you cannot move, they come over your shoulders, across your waist and up from the seat over your crotch. They wear high performance helmets made of Kevlar. They still get injured and when safety equipment fails as Dale Earnhardt's did, they unfortunately die.
Airbags, seat-belts and structure cannot save you in all cases, some accidents are too severe for our frail bodies. All the safety equipment can do is give you a better chance of living through the impact, injured, but living. To survive you need to follow the directions, used improperly seat-belts and airbags can either kill you or allow you to die.
As for dealers spouting stupidity, the front airbags displace much more air than all the other airbags combined. In addition, if the side curtain airbag comes down, it is likely to push someone downward if their face was right on the glass, if they were a bit away it would move them farther away. In either case, the impacting car is a much more dangerous force for anyone on that side, I don't think the airbag is the thing to worry about.
Side curtain airbags have been available for many years now on premium brands and have been installed on many lower priced brands in the last few years. VW has been installing them on all their cars since the 2001 model year, I am unaware of any injuries resulting from the curtains coming down and given the society we live in I am sure a TV program would have had some expose on the dangers if one had killed or substantially injured someone.
In my case, I will be buying a van with front side impact and side curtain airbags. My VW Golf already has them.
BTW, very nice thread on air bags. Very informative.
Mark. : )
What it does point out is the importance of seatbelts and their appropriate use.
Airbags are a one time use system that protects you primarily during the initial impact when the forces on the car and your body are greatest. Front airbags inflate and deflate in less than a second. The actual inflation is extremely fast, the face of the bag is rushing up to hit you at about 200 mph as you are rushing to meet it at 30-40mph. When you meet, your body compresses the bag, forcing the nitrogen gas out of the bag. The gas leaves the bag at a controlled rate slowing you as the bag is deflated. The bag covers a large part of your upper torso and head distributing the massive load over that large area of your body. It is this distribution that reduces the injury so that no parts of your body are so over stressed that bones break or organs get more than bruised.
This of course assumes the accident happened at a speed that the airbag was designed for and that you were in the correct position to hit the bag. As I have said, you will end up with injuries but they should be survivable.
Some airbags may stay inflated longer, particularly side front and side curtain ones. The Ford system for SUVs stays inflated longer to reduce the chance of ejection, secondary impacts after the initial roll and to keep your extremities in the vehicle as it rolls over. Many people are injured by the vehicle rolling onto your arm, hand or head after the glass breaks.
Seatbelts can injure you as they apply greater pressure to less of your body. One of the primary difference between seatbelts and airbags is that the airbag helps protect you during the initial major impact and the seatbelt will protect you during the main impact, the secondary, tertiary impacts and beyond keeping you in the vehicle as it rolls, flips and so on.
Seatbelts and airbags are parts of a safety package that work in unison to give you the greatest protection available today. In the very near future, stability systems and active safety systems such as radar braking and steering systems will help us avoid accidents or at least reduce the severity of the accidents we do have. Airbags and seatbelts will be with us for a long time.
I'll be stuck with this for two or three years, then maybe, Jeep will have a diesel in their Liberty or something else better. After owning three diesels I've learn to appreciate the torque of a diesel as well as the good fuel mileage. With our five speed auto, the Sienna down shifts on every little hill.
I do think Toyota will have much better dealers than VW. The VW dealers riped you off every time you took it in for an oil change. Oh, yes, and the $15 they tried to charge me for electrolyte each time I had my oil changed. I would have to tell them each time that I have a maintence free battery and they would not be able to put any in. I put up with this for almost two years and had enough. No more VW..............................
Thanks again.
Regarding the story about small kids lungs theoretically being injured due to sudden increase in cabin pressure from inflating airbags, consider this:
The interior volume within the Sienna is, to put it mildly, LARGE. The interior volume within my Celica is, ummmm, somewhat smaller. One would think that the theoretical increase in cabin pressure due to inflating airbags would therefore be much GREATER in my Celica than in a Sienna since there is so much less volume for the bags to inflate in.
I don't recall any "Dateline" or "20/20" stories about imploding kids lungs in very small cars...
I think the salesmen you were talking to either a) didn't know what the heck they were talking about, or b) were just trying to sell the stock on hand rather than hassle with getting you what you really wanted.
If you are in the market, you might need to shop a bit more to find a dealership that has them in stock.
"A key parts supplier for the all-new 2004 Sienna is experiencing a shortfall condition to the aggressive production schedule at Toyota Motor Manufacturing Indiana, (TMMI).
This parts supply situation has affected weekly production volumes beginning with the last week of July production and will continue for the next several weeks. Your regional office will be working to insure that scheduled Sienna production that has been allocated to your dealership will reflect the most current vehicle reference number and estimated day of production information. This updated inventory information can be shared with your customers so that they have a better understanding of possible delays in delivery of their new Sienna.
This parts supply situation has also required us to suspend the future allocation of Sienna’s in the bi-monthly dealer allocation. We expect to be able to resume regular Sienna allocations later this month as parts availability improves. While this is a temporary situation, we feel it is vital to align future production schedules with realistic production and delivery dates so that you can accurately communicate with your customers.
Your regional distribution department will keep you updated with new production information as it becomes available. We understand how disruptive these delays are for your customers and apologize for the significant inconvenience caused by this situation.
Probably isn't that simple but,...
Here's the acutal recall info from the NTSB website:
Make : TOYOTA Model : SIENNA Year : 2004
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 03V291000 Recall Date : AUG 11, 2003
Component: FUEL SYSTEM, GASOLINE:STORAGE:TANK ASSEMBLY
Potential Number Of Units Affected : 34437
Summary:
ON CERTAIN SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES, A PART OF THE FUEL TANK MAY BECOME DAMAGED WHEN CRASHED IN THE INSURANCE INSTITUTE FOR HIGHWAY SAFETY’S 40 MPH FRONTAL OFFSET CRASH TEST CONDITIONS, DUE TO THE SEVERE IMPACT FORCES GENERATED.
Consequence:
IF THE FUEL TANK BECOMES DAMAGED AND FUEL LEAKAGE OCCURS, A FIRE MAY RESULT IN THE PRESENCE OF AN IGNITION SOURCE.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE FUEL TANK. OWNER NOTIFICATION IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN DURING LATE AUGUST OR EARLY SEPTEMBER 2003. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT TOYOTA AT 1-800-331-4331.
Notes:
TOYOTA RECALL NO. SSC 30K. CUSTOMERS CAN ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION’S AUTO SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-888-DASH-2-DOT (1-888-327-4236).
Here's some links:
Toyota Recalling 2004 Sienna Minivans (Atlanta Journal Constitution)
Toyota Sienna Minivans Recalled (KBAY)
NHTSA (click on New Recall Info Since and watch for your Viper recall notice too <g>)
Steve, Host
I am not positve....
Steve, Host
The van was tested and this occurance only happened once and it has not been able to be duplicated but it is bettter to be safe then sorry!
If you have a van that is in the service campaign you will be notified when the kits are available to the dealer. The "fix" will take about two hours and of course there isn't any charge to the customer.
Make: TOYOTA
Model: SIENNA
Year: 2004
Complaint Number: 10032826
Summary:
OWNER OF 2004 TOYOTA SIENNA XLE LIMITED - PRUCHASED IN JULY 2004. WHEN THE ANY OF THE VANITY LIGHTS ARE LEFT ON IN THE INSIDE OF THE VAN AND THE KEY IS OUT OF THE IGNITION THE LIGHTS NEVER TURN OFF...THERE IS NO AUTOMATIC BATTERY SAVER/SHUT-OFF. HOWEVER, I NOTICED THAT IN VANS RELEASED SINCE THEN TOYOTA HAS MADE THIS STANDARD ON CURRENT RELEASES. (MID-MODEL CHANGE). DOES THIS SEEM RIGHT FROM A SAFETY STANDPOINT? MY WIFE IS THE PRIMARY DRIVER AND I DO NOT WANT TO SEE HER STRANDED WITH OUR LIITLE ONE SOMEWHERE. HAD THIS BEEN AN OPTION IN A KID-FRIENDLY VAN AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE, I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT IT.
Makes you wonder how Toyota is designing their vehicles. This is the second time in as many months that Toyota has had fuel system defects discovered by someone else during crash testing.
The Tacoma was recalled in July for fuel system defects, now we find the Sienna has a defect in the fuel tank.
Fortunately the Government and the Insurance comanies are testing these vehicles because it sounds like Toyota's testing isn't thorough enough to uncover these defects before Toyota put these vehicles on the road.
Personally, I am gratified that Toyota chose a very difficult road on this. The IIHS is not a rule making organization, they are just a watchdog group for the insurance industry looking at ways to reduce their liability by understanding the performance of vehicles in major accidents relative to the actuarial data they have. The testing they do is not in any way binding or even required as the vehicles are bought from dealers like we do and then tested.
The IIHS uses its testing to excellent advantage by involving the media in disseminating the results of the testing, which is much more rigorous than the US NHTSA/DOT tests. The good thing about the IIHS is that whats good for the insurance industry, reduced injury and deaths, is very clearly also good for us. When we buy insurance we are betting that we will have an accident, the insurer is betting we won't in effect. (I know a insurance actuary will pop up with a much more correct statement, so my apologies for my simplification.)
Many of the car makers that do poorly on the tests tend to say that the tests do not pertain to real world application and reiterate their confidence in the quality of the vehicle and the fact that they do pass Federally mandated tests. Given that many vehicles now pass the IIHS testing with an acceptable rating when others fail, points to the weakness of the failing manufacturers arguments.
So what does this mean? It means that Toyota takes safety very seriously as a feature and a tool to ensure the success of their sales efforts for their products. The fact that the one vehicle initially tested by IIHS failed, could be an aberration that might never occur in real world use. I am sure that IIHS contacted Toyota with the test failure and invited Toyota to respond, which they did. First, they likely asked to see all the relevant data and to inspect the vehicle that failed. Clearly they saw enough of a problem that they chose to make a change to the vehicle.
What is more significant is that they also stopped production of the vehicle when they found the problem, diagnosed the cause and were in the process of corrective action to fix the problem. Why did they do this? First it is very important that any new vehicle have a smooth and trouble free launch to ensure consumer confidence in the vehicle and the brand. Second, you clearly do not want the media to tag any vehicle in your brand as being unsafe, especially if it is a demonstrated physical defect. Audi was massacred by 60 Minutes and it has taken decades to recover, regardless of whether there really was a problem. GM has also suffered for failing to resolve a possible defect involving a pickup trucks gas tank. Third, Toyota has licensed professional engineers who sign off on parts and overall designs. This can make them (the engineer and Toyota) liable for failures that result in personal injury. Especially if the failure can be shown in a controlled setting as the IIHS test is done. I can assure you that the engineers would not stand for a defect that has the potential for death to continue without trying to rectify it to the best of their ability. After all these men and women need to sleep at night, and I would bet a fair number of them expect to own a Sienna at some point. (I work with licensed engineers and they are a serious lot)
So the bad news, no new Sienna's for a while. The good news, the Sienna's already built will be changed and will be the safer for it and the when they resume production the finished product will be better as well.
The fact they Toyota did not see the defect in their own testing of the vehicle before release is not missing a basic issue as First Van stated. As the FAQ clearly stated, the first van that IIHS tested was the only one to have this problem, before or after the initial test. A subsequent test by IIHS did not suffer the same problem nor did any of the tests by TMC. A good question was raised, how do they know if they fixed the problem if they could not replicate the defect? I am sure the offending part was carefully dissected along with many other similar parts to find a commonality for the failure. They likely created a series of tests to try and create a similar failure in the part. They then redesigned the part to pass the series of tests and then tested the redesigned part in complete vehicles that were tested (into a barrier). Is there a 100% guarantee that they have fixed the problem? No, but in all likelihood they have done so.
A gas tank is not a particularly difficult part to replace. One has to be very careful with it as they are dangerous but its not the worst procedure to perform on a car. I doubt that most people will ever be aware of the work done to replace it. Most of the procedure is done from under the car while its on a lift. They may have to remove an interior panel to access the fuel filler area, but in general its a externally mounted object that can be removed without greatly disturbing the rest of the vehicle. If you want to see it, lean down on the drivers side just ahead of the rear wheel and look under the Sienna, it will be a big plastic tank with molded in ridges and shields. As a point of interest, fuel systems have had a long history of issues and failures. The tanks on some mid eighties VW's were replaced due to a defect in a particle screen in the tank disintegrating. The Ford Contour had a recall for issues with the fuel tank and static electricity. VW has a current campaign to rework the fuel filler area as it can be damaged by a flat tire if the owner keeps driving on the flat. VW and Ford are not alone but are just shown as examples.
This is a huge step for a corporation to take. Idling a production line that took the amount of investment the Sienna's did is a huge economic impact for the corporation and the payback on that investment is now moving out months for each week the plant is idle. As a point of interest, Honda is also swallowing a bitter pill as they are extending the warranty on the transmissions used in 99-2001 Odysseys and Accords to head off quality concerns current owners and potential buyers may have.
I personally applaud Toyota for biting the bullet to do the right thing. It gives me even more confidence that the vehicle I have chosen to buy is the right one to put my family in. I have never owned a Japanese corporation branded vehicle in my life, the Sienna will be the first when we finally get it.
(I just wanted to add that I am in no way affiliated with Toyota or any other automotive manufacturer. I am a long time observer of the industry however . I work as an industrial designer for a furniture corporation and have had experience in similar situations trying to ensure customer satisfaction with a product that wasn't meeting (customer) ex