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Comments
Last Saturday, I tested a 2005 base model Auto Trans Outback at a local Subaru dealer. I liked the car and the auto trans worked well. However, back at the dealers lot, I noticed something odd...
If the shift selector is in "D" mode to and to the right side, it operates as a standard auto trans. If you then you move it to the left, and then forward or backward, it operates as a manual trans. Standard stuff so far. But...
If the shift selector is in the "D" mode and to the right, and THEN moved to the left but NOT forward or backward, an indicator on the dash pops on saying "Sport". This implies some sort of Sport mode. Typically a "Sport Mode" means auto shifting, but more aggressive downshifting and higher RPM upshifting.
Does anybody know what this means in the 2005 Outback? With this be on the 5Sp?
Thanks and regards,
Dan.
p.s., One reviewer (I think at Edmunds) noted that the base Outback Auto seemed slow to shift. Assuming that the "Sport" mode makes the auto trans shift more aggressively, I'm wondering if the reviewer just didn't notice the "Sport" mode.
I feel your pain. We had a 01 allraod with tons of problems. We had over 20K worth of repairs on it. Thankfully it was covered under Audi's super warrantee. If me and my wife we'll get another Subie.
Yes Audi's are pretty, to bad they go sour.
BTW, check out the Subaru Crew - Canadian Owners thread (pon1 "Subaru Crew: Canadian Owners" Apr 26, 2004 3:12pm) for more Cdn specific info ...some of us have posted Cdn MSRP for the new 05s.
Cheers.
Unrelated: I visited my local Subaru dealer at lunchtime yesterday and got to poke around inside and out of two '05 Outbacks (both 2.5i) and two '05 Legacies (2.5i sedan and wagon). All very nice in terms of fit and finish as well as quality of interior materials. OBs were two/tone green (very allroad-like) and monotone black (not what I'd expect on an OB, more GT); Legacy sedan was silver, Legacy wagon the darker of the two available blues (Regal IIRC?).
Ed
I agree that VDC and HIDs would be great to have across a greater range of Subarus. I personally don't care for HIDs, but some sort of stability control would be cool, and having options is always good.
PS: I'm a little bummed that the 2005 2.5GT doesn't have auto-climate control after all. Hopefully that'll make the Limited more of a value for those who thought it too pricey.
I believe you've got it right. It means it will shift more aggressively by holding the gear longer before upshifting and downshifting quicker when slowing.
Yes, the 5 speed Auto boxes get this "Sport" feature as well as the manumatic feature.
If you search this thread, I believe one of our esteemed Australian compatriots posted a review of the 5EAT earlier in this discussion.
Cheers!
-Ian
p.s. Where are juice and rsholland. They've got to be back from Vegas by now! ;-)
Patti
Please keep posting your thoughts and opinions. I promise I'll keep sharing them.
Thanks!
Patti
Did you get to try out the steering wheel mounted shift buttons?
Ken
TIA,
Chris
On the other hand, I just picked up a brochure for the 2005's today from another dealership and they don't mention weatherband being included.
Maybe Patti can clarify for us?
Cheers!
-Ian
Thanks for the feedback.
I did a search as goneskiian suggestion (thanks goneskiian) and found a description of how it works. I think it's a nice design, because the driver only has to deal with one control to change from standard auto to Sport auto to manual. Very slick design.
And, I'm very surprised that a base model car would have a sport mode. Many don't.
One quibble however...
The design is so integrated (a nice thing) that many people will never notice it. Especially when test driving the car. And especially with a base model car. I only found it after the test drive, when I was fiddling with the AT. Combine this with the fact that the Sales Rep didn't have much information on the car and I suspect that some customers will leave never knowing that the Sport mode can make the car feel snappier.
A suggestion: Make sure that the Sales Rep explains this feature before the test drive.
Regards,
Dan.
The thought of more work time lost, and the high cost and frequency of post-warranty repairs means that I'm NOT going to buy the Audi at the end of it's lease. I'm looking for a much more reliable car - like a Subaru. :-)
Regards,
Dan.
Does the Subaru system have a user-selectable override?
Thanks and regards,
Dan.
The idea of the mirror turn signal is so other vehicles in your blind spot (and cyclists) can see your intentions and move back to let you in. It serves little more than "ooo, it has lights in the mirror" purpose in the front.
Oh well, just another nit-picky thought.
Patti: Any idea on how much a dealer installed navigation system could cost once they are available?
Cheers
An interesting dilema has arisen: all Highlanders are equipped with traction control, but only the $33K VDC OB has that available in '04 or '05 Subaru lineup. OTOH, all 05 Legacies and OB's come with side airbags, while its very hard to find a Highlander shipped with the optional side airbag canopy. The Forester has neither available in any trim level. Recent reports of studies show amazing effectiveness of current traction/ skid control,reducing single vehicle accidents by 33%...by next year insurance companies wil be offering significant discountrs for cars equipped with traction control. We now have to make a practical decision: a vehicle equipped to reduce the likelihood of an accident on steep,slick, snowy, curvy roads (the general state of things here in the land where plows and salt trucks never come), a vehicle well-equipped to save your life and your families life if you're in one, especially one with significant impact with a tree on a slick road or a high speed impact on the highway, or a Forester with neither but lots of other practical benefits.
Mark
My point is just that, I dont think its that hard to find HLs with side airbags. If your dealer cant help you find one, another dealer can.
~alpha
Stability control might be another matter, but IMO the need for it is overblown, certainly on normal cars (might be different for full size SUVs).
Bottom line, the Sube seems to have lots of passive safety goodies (pyrotechnics everywhere), combined with excellent active safety, so I don't think you are risking life and limb taking your family out in one.
Makes you wonder how anyone got out of the driveway without all the electronic nannies available today.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Did you happen to read the WSJ article that Mark was talking about? Very convincing material. Stability systems definitely have profound benefits not just for SUVs, but also for cars. Granted, the difference is more dramatic with SUVs, its a very good feature to have. My only real concern with stability control systems (which have been around for many years now on lux models) is that they will enable drivers to seriously push the envelope, in expectation that the cars electronics will bail them out 100% of the time... which as we all know.. is certainly not the case. That said, Im not going to lie and tell you that when I get my first VSC equipped car, Im not going to take it an empty mall parking lot and see exactly how the system works, and what its limitations are, because I sure as hell am.
One more thing: "Makes you wonder how anyone got out of the driveway without all the electronic nannies available today." Actually, it does. Take a look at fatality figures from the past decade. Even though total vehicle miles driven continues to significantly increase on a per annum basis, the advent of passive and active safety features has held total vehicle-related fatalies around the 40,000-42,000 per year mark for A LONG TIME. So, when you look at it, the rates of fatality per driver per mile are significantly dropping, and IMO, it aint because we're all better drivers!
~alpha
First off: I have to thank Patti, Jon, Sam and everyone at SOA for inviting us to this event. we had a fabulous time. It was clearly one of the most memorable events I have ever taken part in. To say it was a "hoot" would be a gross understatement! Thank you so much SOA!
Second: My comments here for the most part will be brief. only because I do have some "real" work to catch up on. So I will post a quick overview, and will respond to questions as they arise. I have taken a lot of photos (over 150, of Vegas and the ride-'n-drive). Since I'm still having some high-speed Internet issues, I'm going to burn a CD with all the images on them and give that CD to juice for him to pick and choose what images to show. He's coming by my place sometime this week to borrow my trailer, and I will give him the CD then.
Finally: Vegas is NOT a cheap vacation. Having never been there before, I wasn't quite sure what to expect. I did no gambling. Nor was I seduced by any ladies of the night, and I still came home with only $4.00 left in my wallet.
Bob
Regards, take, care, and when time permits, please do tell of your Subaru experience.
Joe
We all met around 8:15 in the morning, and boarded 5 tour buses that took us to Las Vegas race track. There were roughly 180 people taking part in Monday's Ride-n-Drive. I believe these were all district reps, SOA personnel, and guests like juice and I. Other invited guests included: Scott Putnum who has a dealer in Minnesota (he also rallys and was just competing at the Rim of the World event), Nick from nasioc, Alex from I-Club, Max from Carsdomain.com, Jacoby from subdriven.com, Jamie Thomas (aka Subie Gal), Dave from Legacycentral.com (I think that's correct?), and a few other guests too. Most of these folks were also at the Detroit event in January, so it was good seeing them again, and renewing friendships. Juice, did I miss anybody?
Session 1
Outback VDC
We all took the new VDC for about a 15-mile or so round trip. At the halfway point we switched drivers. I took the first leg, and juice took the second leg. This included roughly a mile excursion off road. I was ammazed at how well the Outback soaked up the rough gravel path we drove on. We did the off-road part at a a faster clip than I would normally drive at, and the Outback too it in stride. The only thing I was worried about was getting a flat. There were a lot of rocks, and the car came with street tires. There were perhaps 20 Outbacks in our group and nobody had any problems. I was very impressed.
Out on the highway I was able to play with the SPORTSHIFT, and it worked as advertised. This new 5EAT is far superior to the old 4EAT. In addition to the manual mode, theres is a "sport" mode, which allows you fo rev much higher before upshifting. The power is much improved, but I still wish the engine was larger, if only to improve the low - mid range power. It is by no means a slug, but the VDC is a heavy car, and I think a 3.5 engine would be much appreciated.
Session 2
Legacy GT Limited
This was at the track, and included sedans and wagons. We were allowed to take the cars through the infield with a professional driver riding shotgun, and coaching us on driving. This was great. I was able to drive two 5-speed manuals, and one 5EAT. Folks this car scoots and handles! I think only if you own an STi, or something like that, would you be disappointed. I was able to get the car so that it was beginning to drift a little through some of the corners, and never felt as if I was going to lose it. I probably got it up to around 80 mph or so at some points through the infield, but I wasn't watching the speedo. Very impressive. Unfortunately we were not allowed to use the SPORTSHIFT mode on the automatic through this section.
We then had a professional driver take us out on the banking, where we reached speeds of about 120 mph. I have some pics of the speedo at close to 100 mph on the banking corners. Juice made a video of that aspect!
Session 3
Accessories
This was a demo showing all the new options available.
Session 4
Tech talk
Another demo of the technical advancements made on the new cars.
Session 5
Legacy i Limited
This was a highway drive. It was an out and back drive on the roads highlighting the "livability" of the cars. Juice took the first leg, and I took the return trip. Even the non-turbo model is a very desirable car. It's very comfortable, has good power, and is very refined and quiet.
Session 6
Off-road hill climb
This was to be with the Outback, but unfortunately, they were still creating the off-road course. So we didn't get a chance to experience this, which was a real disappointment. From what I saw of the course, it looked pretty challenging; much more so than you would expect an Outback to handle.
So that was the ride-'n-drive. It lasted perhaps 4 hours, and was a blast.
Bob
http://www.bellagio.com/
All I can say is WOW! It's clearly the premier hotel in Vegas. Words just can't describe it. Well one word can... expensive! $11.00 for a hotdog!
The fountains out front were spectacular. They are choreographed to music, and each segment is different. No other resort in Vegas comes close to this place.
Bob
First, Thank you to both you and Juice for your reviews. Second, after driving the auto w/sportshift and the 5MT, how would you compare the 2?
Welcome back, and thanks again.
Mark
- I question these numbers. First off, per Consumer Reports - Traction Control is a poor alternative to AWD for traction (their words not mine). If you have FWD or RWD and live in the north, I can see the need. With AWD and a rear limited slip, I do not understand the need for it. Many manufacturers use Traction Control as a cheap alternative for having limited slip differentials in their AWD vehicles (Lexus to name one). Audi uses traction control to help distribute power to the side wheels in their AWD model.
Also, in many cars with traction control, traction control does not work above 30-40 mph (please correct me if I am wrong).
Stability control - I believe it works by cutting power to specific wheels, but could be wrong. This is why in road tests, magazines commonly like to turn the stability control off to get better performance times. Some cars have better systems than others. In BMW's and Toyota's/Lexus's system, it activates immediately, well before danger of wheels sliding. Thus taking the fun out of driving. Car and Driver commented on this system with the BMW M5, saying it was "an electronic nanny". The Audi and GM systems are much more progressive and allow more fun to be had.
Basically, I will NOT buy a vehicle with stability control if I can not turn it off easily!
I wasn't able to experience the steering wheel buttons on the Legacy GT, but the VDC impressed me. I did play with the sportshift on that model, and it was fun. I don't think you'll be disappointed with it.
Bob
My current car, an '03 Saab 9-3 (which I'd like to replace with a Legacy GT) has stability control - Saab calls it "ESP." I personally have never noticed it kicking in or ever experienced any driving situation where I would have needed it to.
However, my wife, while driving on a highway and hitting a puddle of deep standing water, swears the car "did something" which saved her life by preventing her from slamming into the divider.
Also, I'm sure not all stability systems are created equal. Mercedes' testing (likely only of their own system) showed a significant difference. That doesn't mean putting stability control on a Subaru will yield the same results; whether because of differing systems or that Subarus with AWD may already be inherently more stable.
I have a brochure so here is what the LTD package adds to the base Legacy 2.5i:
* leather and moonroof
* fog lights
* heated mirrors, seats, wiper de-icers
* power driver's seat
* leather steering wheel and shifter handle
* CD changer
* dual-zone climate control
So it's more than I originally thought. I'd want a lot of those, though I wish I could get cloth.
For the Outback, the list is different. The base model gets fogs and the all-weather package, but it gives up body colored door handles.
-juice
Sport is cool, it holds a gear longer. Though even the regular Drive mode will take the engine to red line if you hold the throttle down. Sport mode was pretty smart in that it held a gear longer for passing.
Then there's Sportshift, which responds more quickly than the 2.5GT I test drove last year. It's still not Porsche Boxster quick, but it beats VW's and Volvo's system for quickness.
Nav is coming for sure, folks. I got scattered answers about which models. One guy said it would appear on the GT Limited, but then another said it would be offered on many models across the whole line up. So Nav fans should be pleased. I'd guess they'll show up about this time next year (May 2005).
Compare auto to manual? They definitely closed the gap, the auto is much, much better now. It's smarter and shifts quicker, plus tends to pick the right gear and hold it. The 5 speeds are brilliant, and in fact make the H6 quicker because they keep it in the power band.
However, the GT's dual mass flywheels is nice, you feel the clutch's smoothness. It's light, too, and engages smoothly, not one bit of a hint of chatter, in fact the feel was not even recognizable.
So both are improved, but IMO the auto improved more, so it's closed the gap between the two. With the 2004, the 5MT was, to me, a no-brainer. Now it's a tough decision.
Get the automatic guilt-free, if that's what you want. The GT auto is still blisteringly quick, and lag is non-extant. That plus the tranny picks the right gear.
If I had to guess, I'd put 0-60 times at about:
Legacy GT 5MT: 5.5 seconds
GT auto: 6.2 seconds
VDC auto: 7.0 seconds
2.5i auto: 8.5 seconds
So each is quicker than its predecessor, and the turbos blow them all away.
By the way, Subaru's official estimate for the Outback XT for 0-60 is 5.9 seconds, so even their conservative numbers hint at 60mph in less than 6 seconds.
Plus, the Legacy is 100 lbs or so lighter, AND the tires have less diameter, making gearing shorter. It's quick, folks.
-juice
The Legacy GT has even quicker steering that felt wonderful. In fact this is what stood out most, since I'd experienced this kind of power in the Forester XT already. #1 surprise impression for the GT: steering.
For the VDC? Smoothness. NVH is better, and it was already good. You have to look at the tach to see the shifts. It's quiet. In fact I opened a window and was shocked at the contrast. You barely hear a semi driving right by you in the next lane.
The H6 still doesn't match the down-low torque of the turbo, but the tranny is so much smarter it might not matter.
Base Legacy? It's quiet, too. Feels like a Passat on the inside, in terms of NVH and materials. It's not fast, but it probably shaves off about 0.8 second to 60mph because it's lighter. In fact it's such a reasonable performer that I cannot with a straight face say that I need more power.
But I'd lie, cheat, and steal to get a GT.
-juice
-B
Some can be very intrusive, eg the last model E series which I have driven a fair amount in was always having something kick in.(As an aside for those who think AWD does not need good winter tires, drive a car like a E 4matic and see how often the electronic gizmos kick in on snow and then do the same with snow tires, its incredible)
C & D found the original VDC OB was impossible to put into the ditch unlike the BMW, Audi and VW they were also testing with ESC.
Juice/Bob: I hear the comments about limited low down power in the H6, but if you wind it up (kickdown or using Sportshift), does it become somewhat exciting and do you begin to hear the motor running. I know you have fallen in love with the GT/XT, but can you conjecture what your thoughts would be on the H6 as a sporting ride if the turbo models did not exist.
I want an Outback, and I live in Canada, hence my dilemma
JP (wishing that Canada had the base/affordable OB XT.....but unsure how long license would last with said vehicle, or GT, or FXT
Its good to know that the base 2.5i has decent power, and the auto trannys sure seem neat. I just wish I knew about the Subaru VIP partners program earlier, so my dad could get one at invoice prior to interest rates rising this summer!
Again, my only real issues with the car are lack of color choices inside and out, and lack of options for more basic models. Id really like to see a power drivers seat and moonroof optional on the non-Limited models, available either separately or together.
For those who dont have one, the 2005 Legacy sales brochure is very imformative, detailed, and interesting. Get a hold of it!!
~alpha
Perhaps I missed it, but did you get to drive any Legacy GT wagons?
So is 5EAT pretty darn good? It appears as though the shifts are smooth and responsive. I think your report has clinched my decision to switch to automatic this time around.
So other than NAV, any other items in the pipeline? How about HIDs or VDC in more models?
Bellagio, huh? Nice -- was that on SOA?
Ken
does it become somewhat exciting
Tough question. That's not the word I would use, though it's definitely authoritative - when you punch it, it goes.
do you begin to hear the motor running
Thing is it's very quiet, you hear a distant growl, but it's polite. Your mother in law would approve, and have no idea how fast you're going.
Put it this way, if I were to choose a touring car for a long highway trip, and comfort was a priority, H6 all the way. It's still plenty quick enough.
For a track session, turbo for sure. In tight twisties and to show off to my friends, also. But the H6 is more livable day to day, I think.
Honestly? I'd still choose the XT, but here it's cheaper than the H6. If prices were the other way around it would be a tough choice.
H6s can tow more, FWIW. And with no scoop they are more discreet. Finally, I bet they'd be more tolerant of lower octane fuel.
-juice
Yes, we drove the Legacy i, and to a large degree, that served that same purpose, but still it would have been nice to observe that car under normal driving conditions, as I really would have like to experience the steering wheel shift buttons on the 5EAT. Still, I really can't complain. it was a great trip.
Bob
Because on long trips road noise wears on you.
--Sal
P.S. SubieGal has pic up on her site already!