Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

mesh · January 2005

Since nearly every other competitor offers stability AND traction control in their vehicles eg: '06 CRV, Exterra, Audi, VW, Volvo, etc., Subaru really needs to offer it, and soon. I think most of these systems utilize the ABS sensors to modulate wheel braking, so Subaru should be half way there. Considering the significance of stability control, I don't understand why a company as foul weather focused as Subaru is lagging in this arena.

lumbar · January 2005

IMO, there are a couple of reasons why this is not offered across the product line: 1) the niche status (to say the least) of the VDC may be taken as an indicator of market demand, at least at this point; 2) Subaru has historically, for better or for worse, been rather rigid in offering options across it's product line (e.g., colors, moonroof with leather, etc.), and 3) as an all vehicle AWD manufacturer with several systems of varying sophistication, Subaru already has a greater leg up on being a foul weather company, while others, coming late to the game, are really the ones playing catch-up. Given that Subaru is, in the minds of a lot of people, already pushing its price envelope with the latest offerings, I'm not surprised that they are confining a sophisticated VDC system to their higher end offerings (including the Tribeca), although I'm surprised that there isn't an XT/GT Ltd. offered with it.

sduford · January 2005

We're not asking them to make it standard, we're only asking to have it as an option...

lumbar · January 2005

Sure, and, in a better world, everyone would have the ability to option a vehicle as they wish within reason. Unfortunately, AFAIK, the availability of options has a ripple effect on costs throughout the production process. As I said, Subaru has been somewhat rigid in this regard anyway on other items--I'd like a moonroof without having to buy leather. And, in a sense, it -is- available as a type of "option," assuming one can actually find a VDC somewhere. Still, like most innovations, I suspect it will trickle down through the product line, which would be great.

dougb10 · January 2005

My wife and I are retired. We are going to trade her '97 Outback Limited (83,000 km's) on a new Subaru.

We are looking at either a 2.5 Outback Limited, or a Forester L.L. Bean.Both cars are automatic. The Forester is about 3 grand less, but I like the ride of the new Outback better.

The Subaru will be used to go south in the winter to escape the lousy Ontario winters. We also have an '03 Camry for the nice days.

We will be keeping this car for at least 8 years.

Any thoughts or comments from current owners?

Thanks...Doug

rob_m · January 2005

Last time I was in downtown Boston with a Hertz NeverLost system, which has DR, it was showing me out in the middle of the bay!

For some history for the non-Bostonians, the back bay section is actually part of Boston Harbor which was filled in, then built on. Maybe Sly's unit was not so far off!

Rob M.

sduford · January 2005

I understand that. However, VDC/ESP is an important safety feature and a lot of competitors (like Volks and Volvo) offer it as an option across the board.

This is something that is a lot more important then a sunroof or a better radio.

Since Subaru is billing themselves as a safety oriented company, they should offer this. Although the fact that they still sell cars with RE-92s makes me question that safety vocation.

Sly

andrewk · January 2005

Doug: I too was considering a Forester and Outback two weeks ago, though base models in both. What appealed to me was that the Forester X had a $2000 rebate on it. Also, we already have an '03 Legacy SE wagon, so the Forester would have provide just a bit more flexibility. However, in my mind there was absolutely no comparison between the two vehicles. The Outback is so much more refined. My wife was the one who convinced me to spend the extra $4500 for the Outback and am so happy that I did. I would think Outback's refinement and smoothness would make you drives down south so much nicer. Just my $.02 worth.

-Andy

samiam_68 · January 2005

If you're going to drive long distances, go with the Legacy / Outback. It has a more comfortable ride and a lot less road noise than the forester. The cargo space in both cars is virtually identical. Gas mileage will also be very similar. One advantage the Forester has is that it's more compact on the outside making it easier to maneuver and park.

dougb10 · January 2005

Thanks Andy and Sam....you have made our decision easy. What you both say makes sense. Will most likely make a deal in the next day or so. The current '97 Outback has been a real gem and the '05 has been greatly improved. Thanks again for your input.

Doug

kens · January 2005

Doug,

After having owned a Forester and now a Legacy GT wagon, the differences in creature comforts are quite noticeable. While the Forester in it's latest version has received many improvements, it doesn't get quite the soundproofing and NVH reduction as the new Legacy/OBs.

If you want relaxed highway cruising with a touch of class, the OB Ltd will better suit your needs.

As mentioned earlier, the Forester would be a better fit if budget was major concern and/or you needed a slightly more compact vehicle.

Also, two more models you might want to consider are the Forester XT and OB XT. Without the Premium Package and Ltd trim, respectively, you'll get tons more performance for a small increase in price.

Ken

robr2 · January 2005

tsy - the tunnel is almost done - about 90%. Give us time - it's only been 14 years since they started!! It took 30 years to get the Shawmut/Fleet/Not the Bank Of America Center built.

robm - quite a bit of of Boston is actually on land fill - but especially the Back Bay.

Harbor vs Bay - just a little ribbing. Boston Bay sounds very odd to me.

dcm61 · January 2005

Harbor vs Bay - just a little ribbing. Boston Bay sounds very odd to me.

Boston Red Sox - World Champions, sounds odd too. ;-)

DaveM

robr2 · January 2005

Boston Red Sox - World Champions, sounds odd too. ;-)

Yeah, but it has a really nice ring to it.

I like calling the Red Sox office just to hear the voice mail system answer "Thank You for calling the World Champion Boston Red Sox".

I can't wait until Opening Day at Fenway - they open against the Yankees and will be unfurling the championship banner.

drdave25 · January 2005

Thanks for the info. Goodrich has been responsive on the phone, and suggested considering another Goodrich or Michelin tire to replace the T/As. But Tirerack doesn't rate any of these two brands as highly as the Traction T/As. And Tirerack doesn't sell Nokians at all. I still don't get how the Traction T/As slip and slide off road bumps and react to crosswinds more than the oe Potenzas. The stiffer sidewalls do help the Outback corner way better than the Potenzas - but, as the Goodrich rep pointed out, they should also be better in a crosswind, and they don't seem to be.

drdave25 · January 2005

Great question. We were trying to choose between a base 2005 Outback and a Forester XT, which with rebates were about the same at the time. The latter was way better on the fun factor, but, as others have noted, noisier, and less refined. In some ways, the Forester seems roomer, because it's taller. It has some nice places to stash things, and overall carrying capacity is nearly the same (the cargo area is like one cubic foot smaller, although it appears even smaller). Maybe the key question is how upright you like to sit when driving. Good luck in your choice of two neat cars!

dougb10 · January 2005

Thanks Ken....appreciate your thoughts....looks like the Outback wins.

Doug

jmtreetop · January 2005

I went snowshoeing today and was traveling behind some SUVs on a closed road due to snow. There came a point to where the SUVs in front of me were getting stuck in some snow drifts. On three tries, one tire up front was spinning and one in the rear. I thought I would give it a try in my 05OBXT 5spd and I made it through on my first attempt. That's even with the stock R92's. As I was attempting to leave my destination at the end of my hike I ended up getting stuck while trying to reverse and turn around. After going forward a little bit and getting some momentum I got out of there without any problems, but not without a little bit of smell from the clutch.

dmbst68 · January 2005

I'm considering financing a Subaru (probably a Legacy) this coming August. I'm hoping Subaru will have 1.9 or 2.9% financing at that time (for 60 months). What must my FICO score be to obtain the low interest rate?

thanks

aptosca · January 2005

So, the VDC is supposed to come with a subwoofer and now I'm wondering if they forgot to put in. I'd been wondering if I could hear it (but kept forgetting to check) and today I dropped something under the drivers seat and found nothing there. This is pretty noticable, isn't it? I checked the passanger seat and they both seem about the same.

Is it possible Indiana forgot to put it in?

rumc3 · January 2005

As much as I love the looks of Audis, a long-time owner of a foreign car repair shop once told me that if you buy a German car, get set for lots of "maintenance" costs.

Just recently, someone I work with told me she was dumping her VW Jetta, which she just got nearly-new a couple of years ago, because it was a "piece of junk." Last year, she had to replace ball joints at 25K, and the VW dealer told her they were "maintenance" costs that she had to bear, and were not covered by warranty! Ever heard of anything more outrageous than that?

sduford · January 2005

I believe that in the VDC, the subwoofer is out back (pun intended) in the cargo area.

You shouldn't really be able to hear a good and well integrated subwoofer. It should just meld-in seamlessly and extend the lower bass without making itself noticed.

Sly

c_hunter · January 2005

The VDC sub is in the back, on the side of the rear cargo area (pass side I think). It should be hard to miss!

Craig

aptosca · January 2005

Thanks, folks.

supercaley · January 2005

I have 04 legacy 3.0Rn in the UK and within a few miles got error 55 message with ABS and I think traction warning lights coming on. It took dealer a week to sort although they insisted it was only an electrical fault. All was ok until 10 days ago when error 55 came on under medium hard braking. Warning intermittent for a few days with car coincidentally due to go in for 12k service. Garage checked, couldn't find a fault but error 55 reappeared today. I haven't thrown the car about to check if there is an actual fault and haven't tried cruise as I never use it but will the next time the warning pops up. Have you had any progress since first posting. Mike

drdave25 · January 2005

The subwoofer is a fairly large (about 10" square, 2" high) black box that sits, at least in my 2.5i - it was an option - centered under the drivers' seat.

drdave25 · January 2005

In Consumer Reports surveys of hundreds of thousands of owners, the VWs are lucky to make "average" for frequency of repairs. Last I heard, an oil change on a Passat takes three hours of labor, removing shrouds, etc. The VWs are fun to drive, however.

drdave25 · January 2005

We replaced oe Potenzas on our 2005 Outback MT with BFGoodrich T/As. Intitially, the improvement in cornering was refreshing. But when the temperature turns cold outside, the traction falls off. Taking a curve with bumps in the road finds the T/A-equipped Outback flying off to one side, sometimes even fishtailing. After lots of testing, including replacing the T/As with Potenzas to see if the Subie was at fault, the bottom line seems to be that the performance-oriented, very hard T/As are not a great match for the 2.5i. So, a word of caution for 2005 Outback owners replacing tires - it probably would be best to stay with H-rated tires that are a relatively somewhat softer than the most performance-oriented tires. BTW, the dealer was absolutely superior in sorting this out, but the Subaru central office was less than interested.

sduford · January 2005

That's why I personally believe that if you live in a cold climate, you should buy winter tires for the cold months.

No all-season tire will work well in cold weather or on icy roads. The Nokian WR may be the only exception, as it has the "Snowflake on the Mountain" logo.

Sly

rob16 · January 2005

Had the car in to the dealer. They checked it out and told me they got "error" messages from right rear sending "unit".....I think! They replaced it, but still got the same message. We're now waiting for "the whole unit" to come in to try the Heavy Handed approach of, if it doesn't work, put a new one in!! I still don't have cruise or abs. I'll post if and when it gets fixed. Incidentally, my Error 55 and ABS light comes on within a couple of minutes of starting the car every time. It doesn't appear to be activated by me touching the brake pedal....I get a clicking up in the right front and then it goes on...the clicking stops.

rwoods · January 2005

Can anyone explain the difference between VDC and ESC? Since I'm a safety freak I'd jump at the chance to get the best stability insurance even for $1,500.

Bob

saedave · January 2005

Vehicle Dynamic Control IS Electronic Stability Control. But the implementation of ESC whether you call it VDC (Subaru) or ESP (Electronic Stability Program for VW/Audi) can be quite different.

There is a large difference in how intrusive one may be versus another. The VW/Audi ESP is a nanny which keeps the kids on a very short leash; the Subaru VDC does not intercede as quickly, providing a more sporting drive. My previous VW Passat W8 wagon with ESP cut throttle quickly and kept the wagon going straight even under heavy throttle application on slick roads. My 2005 Legacy VDC permits more driver bravado before interceding.

The VW/Audi ESP system even prohibits torquing against the brakes unlike Subaru's VDC. I suspect that Nissan's VDC is the same as the Subaru VDC since it was developed while Nissan owned part of Subaru AFAIK. Ford probably is using the Bosch (VW,Audi, BMW?) system and I don't know which system Toyota uses.

kens · January 2005

The biggest difference between VDC and the run-of-the-mill ESP variants is that VDC also manages the torque split to correct under/oversteer. Most ESP/ESC programs rely on just the brakes.

Ken

c_hunter · January 2005

Yes, Ken makes a good point. I think VDC is one of most advanced stability control systems out there, because it uses AWD to enhance stability -- not just brakes like other systems.

Now for the other post -- I don't think Nissan ever owned part of Subaru. Nissan has been a supplier of certain parts to Subaru (window switches for instance) but that's the extent of it as far as I know.

Craig

xwesx · January 2005

No all-season tire will work well in cold weather or on icy roads.

Well, here I go rearing my ugly head about tires again, but I have to disagree with you on this point, Sly. I have Goodyear Allegras, working on their 3rd year and with 52K miles, and they still handle admirably on both ice and in cold weather. I'm talking about real cold weather, not the above-zero junk that most folks experience. I didn't do any research on the tire (I needed a set of tires and the price/availability was right) so I don't know how it compares to other all-seasons, but my guess is that there are other all-seasons out there that are better in snow/ice and cold.

I am not disputing your opinion that "you should buy winter tires for the cold months." I agree. I don't do it, but I agree that one should - especially for stopping ability. But, all-seasons will get a person through winter after winter safely and in adverse conditions if due caution is exercised.

rwoods · January 2005

Doug,

After test driving the Forester and the Outback XT, Ltd., I found the OBXT clearly superior from many angles. The five speed automatic tranny with the OBXT was a huge improvement, the 250hp turbo engine was as quick as my Lexus GS430 with a V-8. The leather interior and nice dashboard immediately caught my eye. The sound of the doors closing impressed me as did the ease with which I could lower the back seats to increase the cargo space.

All in all I decided not to cheap out and get the OBXT and I've been very satisfied after 4,700 miles.

Bob

rwoods · January 2005

Craig,

I've owned a few vehicles with stability control, an Audi A4, Lexus RX300 and a Lexus GS430. On only the Lexus RX300 did I ever notice any intervention by the system. The RX300 would "depower" when I would come off a highway on an long twisting exit ramp. As you suggest, it was probably caused by the brakes. It was welcomed as far as I was concerned since I didn't care to rollover with the SUV.

My guess is that both the Audi A4 and the Lexus GS430 are low slung and never need to be depowered as I've never experienced any ESC interventions. Probably more aggressive drivers find the system kicking in while I'm so conservative that I don't need it.

Bob

dougb10 · January 2005

Good comments, Bob. Sounds like you really like your Outback XT. We really don't need the turbo version.although it is a blast to drive.

Yesterday we made a deal for the Outback Limited 2.5 and will be picking it up later this week.

We ordered a silver with black leather interior.

Looking forward to many more years of happy Subaru motoring.

Thanks for your feedback.

Doug

kyfdx · January 2005

If you get out in the snow, you can really tell how the ESC systems work... Many of the higher priced cars have systems that shut off power to the drive wheels, not just applying individual brakes..

Actually, those are usually the only ones you can feel working.. The ones that use only the brakes are generally unobtrusive.. I'm guessing that the RX300 was cutting power, and that is why you felt it..

regards,

kyfdx

jackie2 · January 2005

Bob,

I'm undecided about whether to buy a 2.5i or XT Outback. It was fun to drive the XT. I like the kick and speed of the XT but why and where would I need a turbo engine? Not knowing much about performance vehicles or turbo engines what are the pros and cons of owning a turbo engine vehicle?

Jackie

jackie2 · January 2005

I'm undecided on whether to buy a 2.5i or XT Outback. I agree the turbo version is a blast to drive. I drove the turbo first then drove the 2.5i for comparison and I noticed a big difference. It was really fun to drive. But then again what is a turbo engine good for besides getting the kick and the speed? What made you decide you didn't need the turbo?

Jackie

jackie2 · January 2005

Great price for your OB XT Limited! That's just a little over invoice. Was it the color and options you wanted? I'm shooting to make an offer a little under $30,000. Can you give me the web site for that dealer?

Also, why the XT manual and not the automatic with sport shift?

jackie

kens · January 2005

Jackie,

A turbo engine basically allows a smaller engine to produce a lot more power by force feeding it air and fuel.

The benefits of a turbo engine:

- Much higher power output than a normally aspirated (NA) model of the same size

- Does not lose power at altitude unlike NA engines

- Usually less expensive than getting a larger NA engine (ie. getting the H6 option on the Outback)

Cons:

- Requires premium fuel (but so does the H6)

- Turbo lag -- the turbo is powered by the exhaust so power doesn't kick in until about 2500RPM. Not everyone likes the power delivery of a turbo engine.

- You'll never want to drive anything with less power again! ;-)

Ken

dougb10 · January 2005

Jackie

Ken has outlined why the turbo version is best for him...if it fits for you, you can't go too far wrong.

In Canada, our Canadian list prices are pretty steep.

The Outback Limited is $38,995 and the XT (automatic) is $44,395. That price difference, plus premium gas, plus the fact that we had eight good years from our '97 Outback Limited made our decision easy. Gas mileage is important to us, and gas prices are NOT going down. I also would not want to pay the price of a turbo replacement if it ever went blooey...although I think they are pretty reliable.

I can keep up with traffic just fine with the regular version.

Good luck in your choice...they are both fine cars.

Doug

rwoods · January 2005

Jackie,

You ask when would you need a turbo engine. Need is a subjective thing. I once worked with a rich guy who told me he "needed" a yacht. I couldn't understand him and not having much money I'm happy that I don't have his needs. Certainly you can manage quite well with the OB 2.5i. I had a VW Beetle for ten years with 48hp and loved it. I never missed the power because I'd never experienced it.

But once you start down the road of car obsession it is a slippery slope. Before you know it you start "needing" things that you never knew existed. And the car magazine guys will seduce you so don't read any of them. Before you know it you will be test driving vehicles that you really don't need. And also stay away from BMW dealers. Those cars are sooo addicting.

My advice: Buy the OB 2.5i and you will be very happy.

Bob

timo1745 · January 2005

Hey Rumc3-

My now wife and I had been looking at CPO'd Allroads, too, before deciding on the '05 OBXT Limited. Basically, for the same price we paid for the Subaru, we would only have been able to afford a 2001 Allroad; along with that came the questionable Audi 2.7T motor (now gone from their line-up), the problematic pneumatic adjustable shocks (not to mention other unproven Audo gizmos), etc. Given VW/Audi's underwhelming Customer Satisfaction Ratings and Reliability Ratings, the Subie was a slam-dunk.

I've always loved Audis (and VWs), and was so excited to finally find myself in the position of being able to own a late-model Audi with Quattro, but the evidence against Audi being a worthwhile candidate became overwhelming. I've also got 5 friends each with model year 2002-2004 Passats who've ALL experienced these electrical gremlins and other 'bush league' reliability issues which I now understand VW and Audi have become known for.

For any car priced well over $30,000 (especially one whose parent company has been in business for well over 60 years) this is simply not acceptable.

Late model VW/Audis...stay away!

Just my $.02. YMMV.

Tim G.

'05 OBXTL - 5MT

ex-'89 GTi-16v

luck11 · January 2005

Sly, I'm with you. With the kind of weather we get here at least, it simply does not make sense to compromise on all-season. In fact, when I price a car, the cost of snows is included in my budget. Snow tires are a significant improvement over all-season. Wonder if anyone has tracked the stats on number of winter accidents involving skids by vehicles equiped with snow vs. all-season?

BTW, how's it going with the Michelin x-ice on the OB XTL? My Michelin Artic Alpins will definitely need changing next year and I'm considering the X-Ice as a replacement.

Cheers,

Jay

saedave · January 2005

Nissan owned 20 or 25% of Fugi until General Motors gradually bought about 20%. Nissan even had a Japanese domestic market wagon with an all wheel drive system from Fugi, but the engine was Nissan's.

I believe old Nissan wagon body dies were reworked to become later Subaru models. That was not too different from Audi contributing their Audi Fox dies to VW for use in the Brazil-built VW Fox some years later.

The proof of ESC programs is in the driving. I have not seen an unbiased comparo between Quattro, VDC and the Acura RL SH AWD (to name the probable leaders) and the systems used by others.

robr2 · January 2005

Actually Nissan sold its stake in Fuji Heavy Industries after Carlos Ghosn took over as part of Nissan's revitalization plan. Don't forget, it's quite common in Japan to have cross ownership in suppliers, customers, and competitors.

If you don't know, Fuji does more than just Subaru - there is an aerospace division, an industrial products division that manufacturers Robin engines, generators, and pumps, and an Eco division that makes garbage trucks, in store recyclers, and is involved in waste disposal/energy creation.

blh7068 · January 2005

"Turbo lag -- the turbo is powered by the exhaust so power doesn't kick in until about 2500RPM. Not everyone likes the power delivery of a turbo engine."

One point that should be made, imo is that the Subaru turbo is unbelievably linear(i.e very litle lag) in terms of power delivery.

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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