Lexus GS 300/GS 430

00boxsters · December 2004

***MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL***

When the US got its new RX330 did the Aussie's get the new RX with the same body style, gadgets, interior but without a new 3.3L engine?

When the US got its new ES330, did the Aussie's get the same car but with a 3L engine? That does not make sense to me. Is it that the Aussie market was not upgraded to the 3.3L vehicles at the same time as the US and they kept their 3L versions?

I cannot imagine that different countries would get the same new 2006 GS car's but with 3L OR 3.5L engines. I would expect them to be uniform (all countries at their individual time for upgrade)for economic/service reasons.

sorter · December 2004

Unless, in Japan Lexus will offer the Hybrid version first. (August 05)Then for 2007 model year, GS300, 350, 430 for the US?

Those are good pictures. Exterior is much better especially with that pearl white color. However, Interior is still dull from the pix.

lexi4life · December 2004

I think they're gonna offer both engines since:

1. IS will have 2.5 AND 3.5, the GS can't have a smaller engine than the IS

2. Toyota has to use the 3.0 somewhere

3. They never stop saying it's gonna be GS300 (unless it's to foul us)

So I think the GS will get a 3.0, and it's gonna be the base model, the "cheap" one and it'll be available with AWD, it's gonna compete with BMW 525 and MB E320

It's also gonna get a 3.5, (more expensive) to compete against BMW 530 and MB E350 and all the others. This model would offer more choice to customers and that's what Lexus said they wanted to do in the future. I think it's just gonna be available when the new Lexus V8 arrives when the LS is redesigned, during the GS mid cycle refresh so that the 3.5 and 4.3 aren't to close in hp at the beginning.

It's also gonna have a V8, obviously. I think that at the beginning it's gonna be the old 4.3 and as I said, during the mid cycle refresh, the new 4.6 Lexus V8 will arrive with a new 3.5 V6.

Finally, a GS500h model could appear. To simulate a V10, Toyota would match the 4.6 to electric motors, giving THE POWER OF A V12!

lexi4life · December 2004

I think they're gonna offer both engines since:

1. IS will have 2.5 AND 3.5, the GS can't have a smaller engine than the IS

2. Toyota has to use the 3.0 somewhere

3. They never stop saying it's gonna be GS300 (unless it's to foul us)

So I think the GS will get a 3.0, and it's gonna be the base model, the "cheap" one and it'll be available with AWD, it's gonna compete with BMW 525 and MB E320

It's also gonna get a 3.5, (more expensive) to compete against BMW 530 and MB E350 and all the others. This model would offer more choice to customers and that's what Lexus said they wanted to do in the future. I think it's just gonna be available when the new Lexus V8 arrives when the LS is redesigned, during the GS mid cycle refresh so that the 3.5 and 4.3 aren't to close in hp at the beginning.

It's also gonna have a V8, obviously. I think that at the beginning it's gonna be the old 4.3 and as I said, during the mid cycle refresh, the new 4.6 Lexus V8 will arrive with a new 3.5 V6.

Finally, a GS500h model could appear. To simulate a V10, Toyota would match the 4.6 to electric motors, giving THE POWER OF A V12! This model would compete against BMW M5 and the future MB AMG V10 and Audi RS6 V10.

hpowders · December 2004

I always say if you want someone to read your message, make sure you e-mail it 3 times.

lexi4life · December 2004

Sorry I didn't want to.

00boxsters · December 2004

Reportedly Toyota is having difficulty with the RX400h either making enough or getting the performance correct or both. This is why I doubt that the GS350 will be a hybrid and released this year.

The single biggest reason I belive that the GS will be a 3.5L is because of MB and BMW's upgrade (~270hp) in their V6 engines due this spring. I'd bet they did this in response to the 3.0 to 3.5L upgrade from Toyota (and the RL's).

boomsama · December 2004

lexi4life: there will be no RS6 as planned with the new A6

00boxters: When the new RX330 was released in the world (current body style), Australia DID get the RX330 as well, but in other parts of the world like Hong Kong, it is still the RX300 and with all the new features.

Also, we all know that the ES received a minor "facelift" about 2-3 months ago right? We got that down here as well, with some new interior features, but it still remains as the ES300, using the 1MZ-FE with vvt-i.

lexi4life · December 2004

00boxsters: the reason why Toyota postponed the launch of the hybrid RX was because they couldn't get enough batteries from their supplier and didn't want to ship only a few per week/month; that would've made the people in the waiting lists wait even more, get angry and decide to back out of buying a RX400h.

boomsama: can you remember me what happened to the '04 ES? The 3.0 was killed and it got a new 3.3 that was making 225 hp. It is NOW CALLED ES330, not ES300. Where did you took the information it was still called ES300? I don't see why Lexus wouldn't change the V6 engine of the GS at its mid-cycle refresh as they did with the ES.

alpha01 · December 2004

Boomsama is talking about in Australia, where the freshened 05 ES continues with the 3.0L VVTi engine.

~alpha

boomsama · December 2004

alpha01 is correct. The refreshed ES is still called the ES300 down here in Australia. If you don't believe me, please observe the Lexus Australia website. Certain models may stil have different engines around the world even though they're the latest models.

callmedrfill · December 2004

It would be wise of Lexus to have the G350 available at launch. Beating the Germans new sixes to market can only help the GS' puny market share.

   Havng the same old 4.3 will not help either. Putting out the new 3.0 will not be eough to hold Lexus over 2-2 1/2 years for a facelift to get the bigger engines.

   The IS will have the 3.5 next fall, so I expect the GS to have it by then, at the latest.

   DrFill

00boxsters · December 2004

I hope the next crop of car mags break the news about the 3.5L GS. In an case, wasn't there information (in the pre-release Lexus GS brochure) that the GS'300' 0-60 times were 6.8s and 7.0s/awd?

I doubt anyone will complain if the 300 is really a 350 or if the times were faster. Even with a 6sp tranny and a new valve timing system, could the GS 3L get to 60mph in 6.8s? Anyone remember the current GS300 0-60 stat?

00boxsters · December 2004

Just checked the lexus.com site and they list the current GS300 0-60mph time as 7.8s.

Comparing Lexus to Lexus numbers for the pre 2006 GS300 and 2006 GS'300' vehicles gives us a 1 second difference to 60mph. Is the new 6sp tranny and electric valve tricks (220hp to 245hp)enough to drop it from 7.8s to 6.8s?

boomsama · December 2004

It might actually be enough to drop the times imo. The 3.5L V6 should further lower the figures, but maybe only be 0.1-0.4 seconds.

lexusguy · December 2004

I think the difference between the 3.0L and 3.5L would show up more in the 0-100mph test. 0-60 might be only a half tick or so, but as you get into 3rd and 4th gear, thats where the extra hp really shows up.

fluffy · December 2004

FOllowing are specs for the new GS300 model open for booking now and delivery in March'05 (S.E.Asia model):

ENGINE

Type V6 24V DOHC Dual VVT-i

Bore x Stroke 87.5 x 83.0 mm

Displacement 2995cc

Compresion Ratio 10.5 : 1

Fuel System EFI

Max Output (SAE-NET) 170kW / 6200rpm

Max Torque (SAE-NET) 300Nm / 4400rpm

PERFORMANCE

Max Speed 235 km/h

1 - 100 km/h 7.5 sec

Turning Radius Tyre 5.2 m

Body 5.6 m

CHASIS

Transmission 6 Speed Auto Super ECT

Brakes Front Ventilated Disc

Rear Disc

Suspension Front Double Wishbone

Rear Double Wishbone

Power Steering EPS

MEASUREMENT

Overall Length 4825 mm

Width 1820 mm

Height 1430 mm

Wheelbase 2850 mm

Tread Front 1535 mm

Rear 1540 mm

Interior Length 1800 mm

Width 1535 mm

Height 1160 mm

Overhang Front 855 mm

Overhang (Rear) Rear 1120 mm

Cargo Space Capacity 439 L

Fuel Tank 71L

SAFETY:-

ABS

TRC

VSC

Back Monitor

Clearance Back Sonar

EBD

GAO Body

AIRBAGS:-

Driver / Front Dual Stage

Driver / Front Knee

Driver / Front Side

Front / Back Curtain

Rear Side

HEADLAMPS:-

HID

AFS

Auto-leveling

Cleaner

EQUIPMENT:-

Anti theft Immobiliser

Cruise Control

Electronic Multivision Display

1st Aid Kit

Front / Rear Fog Lamp

Illuminated Entry System

Wiper (Auto Sensor))

Light (Auto Sensor)

Power Door Lock

Push Start Ignition

UV Reduction

Smart Key Entry

Water Repellant Front Side

bartalk2 · December 2004

Fluffy,

Remind us, how many milimeters to the inch?

00boxsters · December 2004

25.6mm/inch

bartalk2 · December 2004

0-100km/hr (0-62mph) in 7.5 seconds is not going to break any records. Doesn't seem much faster than the current GS300.

00boxsters · December 2004

?odd:

      2004 GS300 0-60mph = 7.8s (lexus website)

       2005 GS300 0-60mph = 6.8s (lexus pre-bro)

       2005 GS300 0-62mph = 7.5s (fluffy)

lexusguy · December 2004

my guess is about 7 flat when Edmunds or C&D get ahold of one.

boomsama · December 2004

It looks like they've further detuned the new V6 in the GS300 from 181kw to 170kw. Torque remains the same.

00boxsters · December 2004

The new Acura RL is looking better and better.

fluffy · December 2004

Remember all the discussions about different specs Lexus in different? Its sad isn't it? The new GS300 to be launched in S.E. Asia will not have AWD instead it comes with RWD. Talk about being short changed.

Anyway being a diehard Lexi I'll be replacing my 10 mths old 350Z for the new GS while still keeping the RX, delivery in March, dark purple (this is a new Lexus color, looks almost like metallic black) with ivory color leather upholstery.

bartalk2 · December 2004

Looks like Lexus has created another lumbering giant in the'06 GS300. No, it doesn't have to be the fastest kid on the block, but it needs to be competitive with its luxury-car peers.

alpha01 · December 2004

I think that remains to be seen. The 300hp Acura RL needs 7.8 seconds to hit 60 in Car and Driver's street start test, a measure of real-world off-the-line performance. For 300hp, thats hardly anything to write home about, especially when V6 Accords can best that.

~alpha

jrock65 · December 2004

Speed doesn't necessarily equal success. The E320 is the slowest car in this class, but also the best selling car in this class. Then again, it's a Mercedes, and the name alone could sell a couple thousand cars.

Anyway, MB is increasing the engine size to 3.5L.

Among V6 autos, I think the M35 will be the fastest, while the A6 3.2 and the GS300 will vie for the slowest. It won't be a HUGE difference though; at most a .7 second 0-60 difference between the fastest and the slowest.

proe · December 2004

I got the brochure from San Diego Auto Show, and both the style and interior are much better than the new RL and M45/M35. However, I still think M45/M35 will have best performance of the three, and GS430/GS300 will be second, and RL will be third. As the overall value, I think GS will be a steal. Cannot wait to test drive all three cars.

oac · December 2004

Have been away from here due to the holidays. Looks like we BOTH may be right afterall... Gets more confusing with every news release from either TMC or Lexus. What the heck is going on at Corporate Lexus HQ ?

I'll be going to the San Diego auto show on Thursday. Hope to learn a thing or two while out there.

lexusguy · December 2004

Thats exactly what I've been wondering as well. GS300 and IS350 is just totally illogical. A GS300 at all doesnt make any sense anyway. If you have a bigger, more powerful V6, USE IT. The mid lux class size has basically tripled since a few years ago, and its not the time to just be "competitive".

bartalk2 · December 2004

As I recall from the C&D road test of the RL, 0-60 time was 6.7 seconds

00boxsters · December 2004

alpha chose not to use 0-60 for his numbers. He used rolling start/no rev. numbers which is not apples to apples.

lexusguy · December 2004

as 00boxsters said, that was from a hard launch, which you can pretty much gaurantee that RL owners arent going to do. Street start means flooring it from idle, and of course the RL is typical Honda meaning torque doesnt appear until the rev needle gets most of the way to red, which severly hurts the 5-60 test.

alpha01 · December 2004

We dont have acceleration numbers for the GS yet, so I made no mention of those figures, if you read my post as it is written. The Street Start 5-60 test in Car and Driver is more representative of the performance that most people will achieve. 7.8 seconds (which the 300 hp RL posts) is not very quick. The Accord 3.0L V6 (not the steroidal hybrid) posts 7.5 in the same test, if I recall correctly. (I'll check the Oct 2002 issue of C/D when I can).

Im just trying to point out that for all its HP (55 more than the GS), the RL doesnt seem that quick in the real world.

~alpha

jrock65 · December 2004

At the same time, you can't just take one figure from one test and take that as the representative. There are so many conditional differentials from test to test.

For example, some mags have tested the G35 auto as low as 6.0s 0-60, while others have tested it as high as 7.0s 0-60. Same goes for many other cars.

lexusguy · December 2004

Part of the problem is the RL is packing 4,000lbs. Combine that with no low-end torque, and you have a recipie for 0-60 disaster.

00boxsters · December 2004

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Lexus pre-brochure list the 2006 GS300 0-60mph time as 6.8seconds and 7.0 seconds for the GS300awd? I attempted to compare apples to apples above for the last and next generation GS300s using the same source (Lexus).

See my above posts #954 and 946, 947 as well.

I am all for real world testing Alf but we only have 0-60 data for the Lexus as noted. In your favor, I'd bet the GS 6sp tranny will significantly help make up for the HP deficit with the RL.

alpha01 · December 2004

Well, if youre talking about the 0-60 that Lexus published, you could compare it to the 6.7 brake-torque 0-60 that Car and Driver did for the Acura RL, since the Lexus figure probably used the most aggresive method possible. That seems like apples to apples, and if thats the case, the GS300 6A would apparently be only a tenth slower, despite the HP deficit.

jrock- i agree with you. its best to put things in perspective. That said, I like to base my performance comparisons, when possible, to vehicles that Car and Driver has tested for the same comparison report. I have a lot of faith in the Car and Driver numbers, because the mag is upfront about how the do the tests, the equilibration that is done to account for atmospheric conditions, and the many real-world tests that they run (including the 'Street Start', 30-50 top gear, 50-70 top gear, etc.)

But obviously, we dont have a comparo from them yet.

~alpha

bartalk2 · December 2004

The new Toyota Avalon, due next month, will have a 280hp V-6, I believe, will probably weigh considerably less than the GS300, and thus be able to run circles around the Lexus (well, maybe not circles; it is, after all, the Japanese Buick). It's hard to understand what Lexus is up to here, unless they want to keep the 300 significantly underpowered to induce power-hungry buyers to upgrade to the 430. Also a factor, the Lexus philosophy to manufacture balanced luxury vehicles that do not need to keep up in some horsepower race.

bubble_gum · December 2004

Very good point.

I am impressed with the new Avalon will have a 3.5L, 280-HP engine. But the new GS300 will have a 3.)L and 245-HP engine. Hmmm,.....

I'm lost.

I look forward to seeing the new Avalon.

lexusguy · December 2004

There's been a lot of talk for months and months about what Toyota is thinking using its new 3.5L on Avalon and Lexus IS and using a smaller, less powerful 3.0L in GS300. The truth is nobody but Toyota knows whats really going on. Toyota may be waiting for the '07 model year to introduce GS350 in the United States, after it has introduced its new V8 here. In other parts of the world, they dont offer a V8, so they are going ahead with GS350 right away. Thats the only theory that makes any sense to me.

Toyota has trademarked GS350 and GS460, so eventually those cars should appear here. My guess is that means the '07 LS will be LS460. There's been talk about an LS500, but I dont understand why Lexus would have two different V8s when they've never done that before.

boomsama · December 2004

I don't think the Avalon will be able to run circles around the GS. Note how the Avalon is still FWD, 5 speed slushbox and its a bigger car.

00boxsters · December 2004

I believe that the LS500 is a hybrid. Just as the RX400h has the 3.3L gas engine plus the battery power.

lexusguy · December 2004

boomsama is correct, unless Toyota decides to MASSIVELY change the Avalon, its not going to run circles around anybody.

00boxsters, there is a new Lexus V8 coming to replace the 4.3L, which is actually even older than their 3.3L V6. Nobody is sure of the exact displacement yet though.

00boxsters · December 2004

Thanks lexusguy but I was trying to demonstrate that the LS500 or whatever new LS designation may not reflect how many liters the new engine has like the RX400h.

boomsama · December 2004

Since there is so much talk about there being a new 4.6L V8, the LS500 could be a 4.6L with the electric engine as a hybrid then.

oac · December 2004

According to the patent filing, there is the 4.5H (hybrid) which is V8 gas + battery, and the 4.6 (gas only) engine. So I believe the LS500 will be a 5L V8 gas-only engine.

Seems like Lexus wants to make a HUGE statement with the next LS in MY2007. We'll see what tricks they pull out of their bag on this car. The GS engine remains a mystery tho'. Couldn't make it to the SD auto show today, but plan to make it this weekend.

bartalk2 · December 2004

As some have suggested, maybe Lexus did not want to introduce the 3.5L engine in the GS now because it's too close in power to the 430 and might draw sales from that. When they introduce the GS460 or whatever, then they would be free to bring in the 350 because it would lag significantly behind the larger engine. Perhaps that's their thinking. If so, however, it means that for a time there will be a definite imbalance in the Toyota/Lexus lineup with the lower cost (and prestige) Avalon and IS with bigger engines than their big brother.

lexusguy · December 2004

That imbalance has sort of existed already for awhile. The current 3.3L engine, even though it is derived from an old motor, is much more advanced and modern than the ancient 3.0L inline in the current IS and GS300, and it makes more hp too, though not much.

Lexus GS 300/GS 430

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