Seems the supporters of the deal position all sell cars. The supporters of the No deal position are consumers. Seems normal. The controversy is the reason for the law. The law of NO Drive off/NO Sale is the law. That's it, whether you like it or not as the law relates to car purchases. I rest my case. LOL.
since your message was quite vague, i am assuming you are talking about the person who made an offer then backed out.
the only person talking about laws is you. laws and ethics and morals are all different. sure the law says its not a deal if nothing is signed, but to make an offer, then walk away, so your word means nothing, that is not ethically or morally right. and there are many people who AREN'T salesfolks that agree with that. that's the point YOU don't get. LOL
It's a very good thing for dealers that most customers don't know how badly the dealers have taken advantage of them. Morality and ethics are only pipe dreams for any of the dealers I have ever had to deal with except for one.
Well if you go into car dealerships with the same attitude towards car people that you bring here ican see why you are treated the way you are.
Imagine if customers really all did things the way you guys claim? I give a flip if you belive anything I have to say. If you don't quit reading it.
You guys always spin it in your favor sure why not charge over MSRP for all the times you sold at or below invoice it's good for you but MSRP is just a number, is it moral to raise up the price $5,000 because you want to make a bigger profit?
Actually,some buyers have learned quite a bit in this discussion about the law as it relates to car buying. They are now less likely to be conned into thinking they have to take a car before the paperwork is done and the car is driven off the lot. Hope this helps them.
i know - sometimes you just cant get through to people. and seeing his post in response to yours just makes me realize he'll never see the point we're trying to make.
Uh... can we stop talking about other members as if they aren't here? If you don't like someone's posts, please skip them and/or stop responding to them.
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About 3 cars ago, I went into my local Toyota store late on a dark snowy December afternoon. Having struck out at the other two dealers in the area trying to order an unusually equipped Avalon I figured I would get the usual nonsense and was fully prepared to order the car from carsdirect. Anyway, I offered the salesman the internet price and he went off to talk to his boss. Quite some time later he came back and said we have a deal. Naturally, my first reaction was must have offered too much. My second reaction was to shake the guy's hand and finish the deal. Nice car, still have it 90000 mi later. Did I pay too much? Don't know, don't care. Had a satisfactory buying experience and didn't have to spend any time convincing myself why I should behave badly for the prospect of a better deal. Apparently there are those who think differently.
Yes, you have been a good teacher. You have taught people here that it is OK to make and offer on a car, have that offer accepted and then reneg on it so they can take that number and go shop it around.
You have taught them that the law allows this. Good Job!
My parents and others that have come and gone in my life were good teachers too. They taught me the value of my word and the value of a handshake. Lessons I will never forget. I was lucky to have had them in my life.
Probably time to move on now. Like I said, I have learned a lot through these recent postings.
the same way you get a best deal buying anything else: Do your homework. Decide what you MUST have V what you'd LIKE to have. Understand the various ways to pay for the vehicle - IE financing (and what kinds of financing); add ons; trade ins, etc. Know the numbers like the back of your hand. Talk to your friends who are real car hounds. Get some internet offers. Talk to people who have purchased the car you want and find out their experience, and if it were a good experience, check out that dealer.
My husband and I bought a Matrix 2007 XR 5-speed in the late winter. I'd been thinking about this car purchase for two years and we were prepared. I purchased from a local dealer. We could have shaved off $200 going out of state but it was more hassle than it was worth, and I liked the idea of keeping my money in the local economy. And frankly, the dealer did throw in some extra features that I really didn't want on the car and was not about to pay for. The dealer knew we were serious and he didn't jerk us around. AND he got a 5-speed off his lot.
You know, you can spend your whole life fretting that you could have saved a nickel on a deal. Life is short. Don't be greedy. Pigs get slaughtered.
I just informed them of thier rights under the law because most of them are taken advantage of in dealerships at one time or another. The rest is your posturing. Hope it works better in the showroom than it does here.
There seems to be a growing sense of entitlement among people these days. Fewer people are stopping to ask themselves, "Is this morally correct?" Instead, they might use "Is this illegal?" or "Will I get caught?" as their moral compass. This lack of ethics/morals indirectly results in the introduction of more and more laws, as people find ways to take advantage of others while looking out for #1. Hey, just look at all the consumer and employee protection laws passed within the past couple decades within the state of California!
To get back on topic, if you feel a customer or dealership treated you unethically, keep a record of it. As a dealership, it shouldn't take too much effort to maintain a list of people with whom you wish to avoid all future good-faith business negotiations. Depending on the market and the customer's long-term plans, he may eventually regret his previous actions with you. As a customer, you have several options if you've been treated unethically. For me, when I felt I was deceived by the Finance rep, emails to the dealership's GM helped restore my confidence in the store.
Could that be because you didn't get the absolute lowest price or deal that was available on a slow moving model/color at end of model year and end of month/quarter/year that someone else did?
Over a period of the 30 years I've been owning and driving cars? No I think not. I have found 99.9% of all car dealers to be at best dishonest. Maybe it's just my area. But working at one oh so many years ago I saw and heard a lot. Sure some things change but sales people make money from selling you a car and you don't want to pay a lot, who does? I don't know how most people in the car sales racket sleep at all! It's not always about the lowest price and by that I mean if I like a dealer more I might pay a bit more but we are talking like $100-300 more max! Dealerships make massive profits from their service departments. After you buy the car you never see the salesman again. But service guys you see a lot so for me that's very important that they have a great service dept and know what they are doing. As to how dealerships are different from Best Buy??? That question would take too long to answer. I don't know how many cars you've bought from dealers but for me they are nothing alike except in that they both sell things. I like shopping at Best Buy! Dealerships make you go through their miserable rituals over and over again!
And, when it comes to lying...THE CUSTOMERS DO THAT!!! That's all they do.
Along with providing the means for your business and you to make a living. I surely hope I don't run across anyone else that thinks like that in my dealings. :sick:
KBB is giving you such a good price on your trade, have them buy it! They screw up more deals and make more enemies than need be. KBB is a guide, not the Auto-Bible.
Funny how it becomes the bible when it works in the dealers favor tho. If people bought cars your way you'd make a killing in commissions. My job as a buyer isn't to make you rich it's for me to buy a car at the lowest possible price. No one shops for a new Porsche and tries to get a 50% discount. But some cars sell in high volume Honda Civics and accord and Toyota camry's and corollas and believe me dealers that do high volume will sell a car if the customer wants the car. because there is so much money being made other than through MSRP. Why don't car sales people get some new lines? "How much do you want to pay for XYZ car?" This is ok if you've decided you want the car but this is how they start the conversation. Then the song and dance with the sales manager etc.... I used to wait and put up with it, now I test drive the car i have a time frame and I tell them if I am looking at other cars and they usually bad mouth other brands. i also give them my time frame because some times I actually want to drive more than one make to decide. But this wastes their time so they don't want to bother doing anything, never a price in writing just a price they let you copy onto a piece of scrap paper. The sales person will keep you in the dealership as long as possible to wear you down an make you most susceptible to making a poor decision to just end the agony and it works a lot too. I want to pay the lowest amount and they always start off with a much higher figure and I've had that damn KBB pulled out by dealers all the time and they always rate it as low as possible and they subtract from there. oh sorry I meant the NADA book the one that customers aren't allowed to have.
"Nobody says anything when they go out and buy furniture, or that big screen..."
Yes, I do! And if you read epiney's post 4 before yours, you'll also notice he does, too! I agree that some people do not, possibly because pricing on items such as TVs, audio components, or mattress sets is not as easy to research as new car purchases. However, I'm guessing the people who don't shop around for best prices on these big-ticket items also tend to not research their car purchase very thoroughly. I wouldn't be surprised if a person who backs out of an agreed car purchase, in order to lower the price further, is the same customer who asks all the local stores to match the price of a 60" TV he found off the internet from an unathorized dealer in New Jersey.
"And, when it comes to lying...THE CUSTOMERS DO THAT!!! That's all they do."
Wow. That's really profound. I should probably mention that wide-sweeping generalizations are not appreciated here. Ask the hosts, just in case you think I'm lying.
"KBB is giving you such a good price on your trade, have them buy it! They screw up more deals and make more enemies than need be."
Yes, as a consumer, I agree 100% with your thought process on this issue!! Why does KBB seem to consistently list trade-in prices higher than actual market values?? It doesn't make sense to me. Of course, their "Retail" used-car prices are inflated, which can help you dealers earn a little extra profit on your used-car sales. But inflating a customer's expectations of their trade-in doesn't seem to help anybody...
Well if you go into car dealerships with the same attitude towards car people that you bring here i can see why you are treated the way you are.
Ever wonder why people feel that way about car dealers? it's not because of honesty or the massive displays of integrity they display. Its the way they do business and if you want customers to actually want to enjoy the dealership experience then you'd have to change your system. But that system works 100% in your favor. No matter what you guys claim the moral high ground no matter what you do. People aren't as stupid as you think and salespeople do believe that all customers are stupid on their best day.
I wish the odds were that good
Oh they are, I remember when the Honda S2000 was first released every single one was sold with every option they could fit onto the car. $10,000 ADM sticker and no test drives. So when I bought my Miata I laughed all the way to the bank. The Greed factor is so high in dealerships that it permeates everything. Too bad the buying experience really isn't like you guys claim it is but only newbies are suckered into believing the dealership is going to help them. Sure it will and at a maximum profit if they can manage it!
i know - sometimes you just cant get through to people. and seeing his post in response to yours just makes me realize he'll never see the point we're trying to make.
Yes, you have been a good teacher. You have taught people here that it is OK to make and offer on a car, have that offer accepted and then reneg on it so they can take that number and go shop it around
Yes and it's a darn good idea too! I salute him because you guys can't always win. That's why you never write down any figures on paper because you don't want anyone to shop around your price. Because you KNOW the next dealer will beat the price by enough to beat the sale just like you would do if someone came in with it on a company worksheet. so much for lowest price if someone else can beat it eh?
Over a period of the 30 years I've been owning and driving cars? No I think not. I have found 99.9% of all car dealers to be at best dishonest.
I'm sorry that's happened to you. Perhaps, I am naive in thinking that a reasonable transaction can take place. It does help if you are knowledable and establish that up front. I have on occasion asked a question to "test" the sales person and have said "look if we going to a successful dealing here, you're going to have to be straight". Usually works. It's the minority that are the old sterotypical used car types that I have come across, but I will admit I have not shopped the high volume brands in some time.
Regarding Best Buy, last time I tried to make a major purchase it was like a car. Tried to buy a high end piece from Magnolia. Since I went to see it there, I asked them to come close to pricing I could get on-line, instead of just playing with the gear there and buying it somewhere esle. The sales guy understood that we were developing a relationship for future sales. The blue shirt manager was too busy with a usb cable exchange to talk to me. High end and AV and mass market computer gear just don't mix.
How nice of you to lump every car into one category. So every car rom Buick to Toyota was wrong? I think not. I sure don't buy land rovers tho and from your nick it looks like that is what you sell.
I pick up my customers cars for service. Not all the time but I do it.
For the price of a Land Rover .......... nah won't say it. but expensive premium brands where there is a lot of profit and repeat customers sure it's in your best interest. I wonder if you'd do that if you sold Chevy or Dodge or some brand that didn't net you a big fat paycheck from one sale? nothing is free, you get repeat customers and that is 100% ok with me but it only works with premium brands. Are you going to do that for $100 on a Cobalt or something?
Wow. I haven't had a bad experience so far. I did my research, knew what I wanted and knew how much I should pay. I have had to shop around to meet my number, but I have always managed to do it. The internet makes it much easier to determine a reasonable price to pay, and most of the dealers around here are pretty low pressure with knowledgeable sales staff, especially on the new car side. The used car side things fall down a bit, but if it doesn't bother you to know more about the car than the sales guy, its fine. I get pretty stressed out car shopping because its a lot of money for me and I keep cars a long time, but I've never lost it or anything nor did I feel disrespected. I don't feel like its the dealer's job to give me some super good deal on a car. It is their job to get MSRP for the car, thats why the sticker is on the window. Its my job to know what is or isn't a good deal. I also won't commit to a deal until I am ready, but I wouldn't change my mind once I did.
It means you the customer are always wrong and at fault and the salesman and the dealer is always right and of course they are ethical implying that you are not. but shake their hand on a bad deal and watch how fast they scramble to get out of it. I've seen it more than a few times. My lawyer is expensive but he's also top drawer and it just took one phone call and problem solved. Some dealerships are so known to be scammers that their are websites set up to talk about it. So next time do a google search for your dealership and see if there are any really angry customers. sales people and dealers ALWAYS blame the customers. The above quote is proof of that.
I'm sorry that's happened to you. Perhaps, I am naive in thinking that a reasonable transaction can take place. It does help if you are knowledable and establish that up front. I have on occasion asked a question to "test" the sales person and have said "look if we going to a successful dealing here, you're going to have to be straight". Usually works. It's the minority that are the old stereotypical used car types that I have come across, but I will admit I have not shopped the high volume brands in some time.
There is a saying "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." Oh and believe me I can name all the dealerships and where they are located. But of course proof is a big burden and proving anything in a dealership is almost impossible since they are very careful with even what they throw in the wastebaskets and I've seen salesmen get royally chewed out for throwing out worksheets in the wastebasket at the desk. Car dealers are nothing like Best Buy but it sure works in their favor to have you think so.
Wow. I haven't had a bad experience so far. I did my research, knew what I wanted and knew how much I should pay. I have had to shop around to meet my number, but I have always managed to do it.
How long have you been buying cars? Seriously? I'm not flaming you I'm curious. I've been buying them for longer than before you could access the Internet. Heck back then it was before computers were even in homes. I bought my first car in 1974. My first new car in 1978. I've been buying new an used for a while and yes nowadays the Internet really helps. But in other forums many Internet managers don't even return emails. You might get 2 replies out of 6 if you are lucky. This all started because one guy backed out of a deal based on a handshake. I make deals all the time but I always lowball the dealer who is going to highball me. That's ok but getting a price should not be taken as a commitment. You should be free to try and beat that price and that is what they absolutely do not want. They never write the price down on any company paperwork. It's all so cloak and dagger. Imagine if they actually enforced truth in advertising n dealerships with Massive fines or made them give customers the cars for free or 50% of the price as a penalty for lying in print ads or rather misrepresenting the truth? My gosh the uproar would be deafening. They rely on misleading the customer in order to maximize profit. their Job is to sell cars. They want high prices and on new an desirable models will gouge their customers without mercy but try and trade in that car you paid $10K over for and watch them laugh at how upside down you are on the value.
I don't think I've run into anyone quite as jaded as you are in these forums and I've been around since the beginning.
I really don't care what you think. I know how I operate and how our store operates.
I don't know of anyone who sold S-2000's for a 10,000 markup but I certainly DO remember in 1990 when Miatas first came out and the huge markups that it took to buy one.
You can laugh all you want but you can hardly compare a Miata to an S-2000. I have owned two Miatas BTW and I have a soft spot for them...great cars!
Seriously, what are you complaining about? Profit is a motivation for businesses in our nation. That is the way our system is designed. Profit is not bad. It is good. It alone makes possible the many choices we have in the marketplace. It is the thing that convinces investors to take chances with their money and start new businesses or to market a newer, better mousetrap. Profit allows businesses to expand and hire more employees and pay higher wages and bonuses. Yes, it is ALL about the money, or CAPITAL. By definition the sellers/corporations try to get money from the buyers/investors. If you don't like it, don't play. Or do the best you can to retain at least some of your money. Those are good choices too. The alternatives to capitalism (/fascism?) are out there. You could probably take up residence in a country that offers one if you really do not like the idea of profits going to entreprenuers and corporations.
If dealers are displaying greed, just ignore it. Make the offer that is fair in your estimation. If they say no, increase the offer or choose an alternative.
I really can't believe Bobst hasn't gotten into this melee!!! He makes an offer, if they accept it...he buys it!!! PERIOD!!! He doesn't change his mind. he is a Happy buyer and the deal is done!!!!
I don't think I've run into anyone quite as jaded as you are in these forums and I've been around since the beginning.
Beginning of what, Edmunds online? I mean did you buy a new Model T from the first batch?
I really don't care what you think. I know how I operate and how our store operates.
I don't even know who you are you must have a guilty conscience to think I have any idea of what dealership you work out of. I am not naming any names because I'm sure I'll have to pay my overpriced lawyer a lot to sort it and I don't intend to do that.
I don't know of anyone who sold S-2000's for a 10,000 markup but I certainly DO remember in 1990 when Miatas first came out and the huge markups that it took to buy one.
Funny I had no problem seeing ADM stickers all over S2000's. I sure didn't buy a Miata in 1990, no way. Gouging galore at that time as you pointed out. The Honda S2000 is a good car but it's very hard as daily driver I've driven them at auto-x and they are very high rpm cars and need a lot to not stall out and I saw a lot of news ones tall out until people learned to rev them higher. I was laughing because no way was I going to buy the S2000 with the dealer pulling those stunts and then telling everyone then you'll never be able to get one as they are very rare :surprise: Funny how they aren't so rare now. So are you guys charging full MSRP on your fits still or any discounts? So far no Honda dealer will discount the Fit. It's a big seller so no need to give any price breaks.
Steve, you may be the most bitter person I have ever come across. You seem to not be very good at buying cars and in your mind pay to much every time. I would suggest spending more time reading here and getting good ideas on how to go about the process. Then maybe next time the big bad car guys won't take advantage of you. There are allot of folks here with very constructive things to say and have very good ideas.
>They want high prices and on new an desirable models will >gouge their customers without mercy but try and trade in >that >car you paid $10K over for and watch them laugh at how > upside down you are on the value.
I don't have a problem at all with what you write above. If somebody wants a car bad enough, they can pay more for the privilege of having the latest model before everybody else.
However, when it comes to trading/selling the car, why should they get compensated for it? I don't care how much above or below MSRP you paid. That is not relevant to the new transaction.
Somebody in that situation wants to have their cake and eat it too. Simple solution for this, don't pay a surcharge for driving the hot vehicle.
The first car I bought (which wasn't for me, I was helping someone else) was in 1989. I purchased my own first (used) car in 1991 (man was that a great car, paid $6k drove it for ~8 years/150k and sold it for $2k). I tend to average 1-2 cars/year for family and friends, with an occasionally one for myself/spouse though in there, so maybe 20 or so vehicles; as the internet gets even more accessible I have been needed less.
Depending on the person, I send them out to look and figure out a couple of cars they want (make/model/trim)and then figure out a price based on region and stuff, as well as how far they are willing to drive and their thresholds. I'm not so excited about sending them to LA to save $100 over the local dealer that is going to be servicing the car, unless there is a reason to avoid that particular dealer, in which case I have no idea what deal they would do because someone won't shop there.
I have set up deals via phone or via internet and if my family talks to someone at a dealership for a test drive or something, I try to use that guy for negotiations. Now that they are all getting e-mail it makes it even easier.
I do have favorite dealers (and sales guys) and I also know of a few that have cultural issues (some guy wouldn't talk to my mom without my dad there because she was just a woman - I had to explain to him the US doesn't work like that and he lost a sale) but no-one has gone out of their way to be an jerkwad.
I am sure every sales guy I met would've been a happy camper to let me pay MSRP for every vehicle. I tend to skip dealers with ADM stickers or wait until the craze has passed (I helped someone get a 92 Miata and a early but not 1st release PT Cruiser).
The sales guy is there to provide product knowledge, help you find a particular vehicle/options and some hand holding, they are not there to give you the "bro deal" on something they can't keep on the lot.
Now there's a great idea. Bigger government, more laws, more intrusion into private affairs. That's just great! (like we don't already have all those?)
You can't very well make it illegal to be ignorant or make it a crime to seek profits in a society like the U.S. Profits make our world go 'round.
If you can't swim, stay out of the water. Or at least take someone with you who knows how to rescue you.
Better yet, take swimming lessons. Seek advice from ones who know. Get educated. Don't be so proud and hardheaded to insist on learning at the school of hard knocks.
Some little fish are going to get eaten. So what? That's natural.
have been removed. We're here to help consumers get the best deal, but we aren't here to "rip" anyone, consumers or salespeople.
Hot tip: Don't feed the trolls. They grow. They get energy from it.
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Oh we get it but I wonder if you really do. Once an offer is given and accepted negotiations are over and you have a deal. If you don't want to buy a car for X amount of dollars then don't offer X amount of dollars.
In short you went to the dealership and lied. You said you would buy a car for a set amount and when it was accepted you ran. If this was turned around and the dealer reneged on you you would be screaming bloody murder.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When the Honda Odysseys first came out, I used Edmunds.com to obtain a price quote. After exchanging a couple emails with the sales guy, we agreed on a final out the door price and set an appointment time for the next day to do the deal. He calls me early the next day and says, "We expect these things to be a hot seller, so we can't honor the price I quoted you yesterday, it will be an extra $500".
I was stunned and silent as I didn't know what to say. Finally I basically said, "if that's the way you do business, then I won't buy anything from you". He simply said, "sorry". I complained to Edmunds, even sent them his emails. They called the dealer and tried to sway him, but in the end they said they were powerless to force them to honor the price. And I still refuse to ever consider buying anything from that dealer.
So, things like Isells story go both ways. And to be honest with you Isell, as long as you've been in car sales, I'm surprised it affected you as much as it did.
Why do all of you these bitter buyer keep dealing with this dealerships? I bought a car a couple of years ago from a Honda dealer, and was very impressed with the honesty. The entire deal was done over the internet, they honored everything they said they would. If you think your getting cheated, walk away and go somewhere else. All of the people who feel cheated from car dealers, how would you like it if everyday someone tried to get you to do your job for less money? Not a car salesman...
Geez lots of new postings i've started a firestorm and this was not the intent of my postings
I am as much to blame as I brought your post to "light".
I'm not in sales but I do believe that if you made an offer to buy at a certain price you should go ahead and do so. If not why make the offer in the first place? I mean it is an offer to buy the car at a certain price right? The fact that the salesperson agreed to the price in a timely matter should not matter because you offered the price.
However, in retrospect, I imagine you will do as you please and that doesn't affect me one bit and if you can't see what all these posts are about that's ok too.
Actually, they were worse since they were a dealer.
Why? I don't hold a dealer to a higher standard than I hold myself. Actually I tend to expect less and then when they do as they say, it's pleasant. In fairness the pleasant surprises are more frequent these days, but I dearly wish I could get my first offer accepted, no fuss no muss. Would save us both 15 or 20 minutes of dancing.
Thanks for your reply. In my emailed all dealers I would be willing to travel to (about 13). I included a description of exactly what I wanted, the fact that I wanted to purchase in the next few days, the OTD price I was willing to pay, and a detailed description of my trade in (a 2007 Ford F150 4x4 I won in a raffle--though I did not say a won it).
Before I sent the email I posted it on this forum to see what everyone thought (#2698)and took suggestions into consideration.
It seems on the "Prices Paid" forum a lot of people are doing their negotiations through email and going in to finish he deal. I thought I would give it a try but I have not had any luck getting close to the prices that are being posted (apples to apples--before TTL).
Maybe around here they don't like to deal through email. Most I got a reply from indicated they couldn't come close to the price I was offering.
"...how would you like it if everyday someone tried to get you to do your job for less money?"
Nah, that's not right! A shopper NEVER tries to get a salesman to work for less. A salesperson should be happy a shopper even comes in to the store. Without the shopper, the salesman has NO CHANCE of making money. Every customer who buys increases the salesman's income. A buyer NEVER ends up making the salesman work for less. Exactly the opposite! Every buyer makes the salesman richer. The shopper is not trying to get the salesguy to work for less money, he's just trying to buy a car for no more than necessary. He doesn't care how much the salesguy gets. Sure the salesman and the shopper have different goals as to price, but that's not really news now, is it?
A salesman's job is to hang around until a shopper drives in. Then his job changes. His new job is to make that shopper into a buyer who will pay more for a car than it is worth to the dealer. The amount over what the dealer knows his car is worth is called PROFIT. A salesman's allegiance is to his employer and himself, not the buyer. He'll try to squeeze as much money out of the buyer as he reasonably (and sometimes unreasonably) can without alienating the buyer. It's all about PROFIT. The more profits a saleman can generate, the better salesman he is. Not a better man, mind you, but only a better salesman.
Comments
the only person talking about laws is you. laws and ethics and morals are all different. sure the law says its not a deal if nothing is signed, but to make an offer, then walk away, so your word means nothing, that is not ethically or morally right. and there are many people who AREN'T salesfolks that agree with that. that's the point YOU don't get. LOL
-thene :sick:
Several of us have given him the same message and he continues to miss the point. I give up and it's probably time to move on.
I have to admit, I learned quite a bit about people during this interchange.
Well if you go into car dealerships with the same attitude towards car people that you bring here ican see why you are treated the way you are.
Imagine if customers really all did things the way you guys claim? I give a flip if you belive anything I have to say. If you don't quit reading it.
You guys always spin it in your favor sure why not charge over MSRP for all the times you sold at or below invoice it's good for you but MSRP is just a number, is it moral to raise up the price $5,000 because you want to make a bigger profit?
I wish the odds were that good
i know - sometimes you just cant get through to people. and seeing his post in response to yours just makes me realize he'll never see the point we're trying to make.
*sigh*
-thene :sick:
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You have taught them that the law allows this. Good Job!
My parents and others that have come and gone in my life were good teachers too. They taught me the value of my word and the value of a handshake. Lessons I will never forget. I was lucky to have had them in my life.
Probably time to move on now. Like I said, I have learned a lot through these recent postings.
My husband and I bought a Matrix 2007 XR 5-speed in the late winter. I'd been thinking about this car purchase for two years and we were prepared. I purchased from a local dealer. We could have shaved off $200 going out of state but it was more hassle than it was worth, and I liked the idea of keeping my money in the local economy. And frankly, the dealer did throw in some extra features that I really didn't want on the car and was not about to pay for. The dealer knew we were serious and he didn't jerk us around. AND he got a 5-speed off his lot.
You know, you can spend your whole life fretting that you could have saved a nickel on a deal. Life is short. Don't be greedy. Pigs get slaughtered.
To get back on topic, if you feel a customer or dealership treated you unethically, keep a record of it. As a dealership, it shouldn't take too much effort to maintain a list of people with whom you wish to avoid all future good-faith business negotiations. Depending on the market and the customer's long-term plans, he may eventually regret his previous actions with you. As a customer, you have several options if you've been treated unethically. For me, when I felt I was deceived by the Finance rep, emails to the dealership's GM helped restore my confidence in the store.
Over a period of the 30 years I've been owning and driving cars? No I think not.
I have found 99.9% of all car dealers to be at best dishonest. Maybe it's just my area. But working at one oh so many years ago I saw and heard a lot. Sure some things change but sales people make money from selling you a car and you don't want to pay a lot, who does?
I don't know how most people in the car sales racket sleep at all!
It's not always about the lowest price and by that I mean if I like a dealer more I might pay a bit more but we are talking like $100-300 more max!
Dealerships make massive profits from their service departments. After you buy the car you never see the salesman again. But service guys you see a lot so for me that's very important that they have a great service dept and know what they are doing.
As to how dealerships are different from Best Buy??? That question would take too long to answer. I don't know how many cars you've bought from dealers but for me they are nothing alike except in that they both sell things. I like shopping at Best Buy! Dealerships make you go through their miserable rituals over and over again!
See you are buying the wrong kind of car.
I pick up my customers cars for service. Not all the time but I do it.
As long as we are way off topic...
Posts like the above are why fewer sales people drift out of the stories from the sales front lines thread.
Along with providing the means for your business and you to make a living. I surely hope I don't run across anyone else that thinks like that in my dealings. :sick:
One more thing...your payoff is YOUR fault.
What does this mean? :confuse:
Funny how it becomes the bible when it works in the dealers favor tho.
If people bought cars your way you'd make a killing in commissions. My job as a buyer isn't to make you rich it's for me to buy a car at the lowest possible price. No one shops for a new Porsche and tries to get a 50% discount.
But some cars sell in high volume Honda Civics and accord and Toyota camry's and corollas and believe me dealers that do high volume will sell a car if the customer wants the car. because there is so much money being made other than through MSRP.
Why don't car sales people get some new lines?
"How much do you want to pay for XYZ car?" This is ok if you've decided you want the car but this is how they start the conversation. Then the song and dance with the sales manager etc....
I used to wait and put up with it, now I test drive the car i have a time frame and I tell them if I am looking at other cars and they usually bad mouth other brands. i also give them my time frame because some times I actually want to drive more than one make to decide. But this wastes their time so they don't want to bother doing anything, never a price in writing just a price they let you copy onto a piece of scrap paper.
The sales person will keep you in the dealership as long as possible to wear you down an make you most susceptible to making a poor decision to just end the agony and it works a lot too.
I want to pay the lowest amount and they always start off with a much higher figure and I've had that damn KBB pulled out by dealers all the time and they always rate it as low as possible and they subtract from there.
oh sorry I meant the NADA book the one that customers aren't allowed to have.
Yes, I do! And if you read epiney's post 4 before yours, you'll also notice he does, too! I agree that some people do not, possibly because pricing on items such as TVs, audio components, or mattress sets is not as easy to research as new car purchases. However, I'm guessing the people who don't shop around for best prices on these big-ticket items also tend to not research their car purchase very thoroughly. I wouldn't be surprised if a person who backs out of an agreed car purchase, in order to lower the price further, is the same customer who asks all the local stores to match the price of a 60" TV he found off the internet from an unathorized dealer in New Jersey.
"And, when it comes to lying...THE CUSTOMERS DO THAT!!! That's all they do."
Wow. That's really profound. I should probably mention that wide-sweeping generalizations are not appreciated here. Ask the hosts, just in case you think I'm lying.
"KBB is giving you such a good price on your trade, have them buy it! They screw up more deals and make more enemies than need be."
Yes, as a consumer, I agree 100% with your thought process on this issue!! Why does KBB seem to consistently list trade-in prices higher than actual market values?? It doesn't make sense to me. Of course, their "Retail" used-car prices are inflated, which can help you dealers earn a little extra profit on your used-car sales. But inflating a customer's expectations of their trade-in doesn't seem to help anybody...
Ever wonder why people feel that way about car dealers? it's not because of honesty or the massive displays of integrity they display. Its the way they do business and if you want customers to actually want to enjoy the dealership experience then you'd have to change your system. But that system works 100% in your favor.
No matter what you guys claim the moral high ground no matter what you do. People aren't as stupid as you think and salespeople do believe that all customers are stupid on their best day.
I wish the odds were that good
Oh they are, I remember when the Honda S2000 was first released every single one was sold with every option they could fit onto the car. $10,000 ADM sticker and no test drives. So when I bought my Miata I laughed all the way to the bank.
The Greed factor is so high in dealerships that it permeates everything.
Too bad the buying experience really isn't like you guys claim it is but only newbies are suckered into believing the dealership is going to help them. Sure it will and at a maximum profit if they can manage it!
Which is never give a sucker an even break!
Yes and it's a darn good idea too! I salute him because you guys can't always win. That's why you never write down any figures on paper because you don't want anyone to shop around your price. Because you KNOW the next dealer will beat the price by enough to beat the sale just like you would do if someone came in with it on a company worksheet.
so much for lowest price if someone else can beat it eh?
I have found 99.9% of all car dealers to be at best dishonest.
I'm sorry that's happened to you. Perhaps, I am naive in thinking that a reasonable transaction can take place. It does help if you are knowledable and establish that up front. I have on occasion asked a question to "test" the sales person and have said "look if we going to a successful dealing here, you're going to have to be straight". Usually works. It's the minority that are the old sterotypical used car types that I have come across, but I will admit I have not shopped the high volume brands in some time.
Regarding Best Buy, last time I tried to make a major purchase it was like a car. Tried to buy a high end piece from Magnolia. Since I went to see it there, I asked them to come close to pricing I could get on-line, instead of just playing with the gear there and buying it somewhere esle. The sales guy understood that we were developing a relationship for future sales. The blue shirt manager was too busy with a usb cable exchange to talk to me. High end and AV and mass market computer gear just don't mix.
How nice of you to lump every car into one category.
So every car rom Buick to Toyota was wrong? I think not.
I sure don't buy land rovers tho and from your nick it looks like that is what you sell.
I pick up my customers cars for service. Not all the time but I do it.
For the price of a Land Rover .......... nah won't say it.
but expensive premium brands where there is a lot of profit and repeat customers sure it's in your best interest.
I wonder if you'd do that if you sold Chevy or Dodge or some brand that didn't net you a big fat paycheck from one sale?
nothing is free, you get repeat customers and that is 100% ok with me but it only works with premium brands. Are you going to do that for $100 on a Cobalt or something?
The internet makes it much easier to determine a reasonable price to pay, and most of the dealers around here are pretty low pressure with knowledgeable sales staff, especially on the new car side. The used car side things fall down a bit, but if it doesn't bother you to know more about the car than the sales guy, its fine.
I get pretty stressed out car shopping because its a lot of money for me and I keep cars a long time, but I've never lost it or anything nor did I feel disrespected.
I don't feel like its the dealer's job to give me some super good deal on a car. It is their job to get MSRP for the car, thats why the sticker is on the window. Its my job to know what is or isn't a good deal. I also won't commit to a deal until I am ready, but I wouldn't change my mind once I did.
What does this mean?
It means you the customer are always wrong and at fault and the salesman and the dealer is always right and of course they are ethical implying that you are not. but shake their hand on a bad deal and watch how fast they scramble to get out of it. I've seen it more than a few times. My lawyer is expensive but he's also top drawer and it just took one phone call and problem solved. Some dealerships are so known to be scammers that their are websites set up to talk about it. So next time do a google search for your dealership and see if there are any really angry customers.
sales people and dealers ALWAYS blame the customers. The above quote is proof of that.
There is a saying "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."
Oh and believe me I can name all the dealerships and where they are located. But of course proof is a big burden and proving anything in a dealership is almost impossible since they are very careful with even what they throw in the wastebaskets and I've seen salesmen get royally chewed out for throwing out worksheets in the wastebasket at the desk.
Car dealers are nothing like Best Buy but it sure works in their favor to have you think so.
How long have you been buying cars? Seriously? I'm not flaming you I'm curious. I've been buying them for longer than before you could access the Internet. Heck back then it was before computers were even in homes. I bought my first car in 1974. My first new car in 1978.
I've been buying new an used for a while and yes nowadays the Internet really helps. But in other forums many Internet managers don't even return emails. You might get 2 replies out of 6 if you are lucky.
This all started because one guy backed out of a deal based on a handshake. I make deals all the time but I always lowball the dealer who is going to highball me. That's ok but getting a price should not be taken as a commitment. You should be free to try and beat that price and that is what they absolutely do not want.
They never write the price down on any company paperwork. It's all so cloak and dagger.
Imagine if they actually enforced truth in advertising n dealerships with Massive fines or made them give customers the cars for free or 50% of the price as a penalty for lying in print ads or rather misrepresenting the truth? My gosh the uproar would be deafening. They rely on misleading the customer in order to maximize profit. their Job is to sell cars. They want high prices and on new an desirable models will gouge their customers without mercy but try and trade in that car you paid $10K over for and watch them laugh at how upside down you are on the value.
I really don't care what you think. I know how I operate and how our store operates.
I don't know of anyone who sold S-2000's for a 10,000 markup but I certainly DO remember in 1990 when Miatas first came out and the huge markups that it took to buy one.
You can laugh all you want but you can hardly compare a Miata to an S-2000. I have owned two Miatas BTW and I have a soft spot for them...great cars!
Seriously, what are you complaining about? Profit is a motivation for businesses in our nation. That is the way our system is designed.
Profit is not bad. It is good. It alone makes possible the many choices we have in the marketplace. It is the thing that convinces investors to take chances with their money and start new businesses or to market a newer, better mousetrap. Profit allows businesses to expand and hire more employees and pay higher wages and bonuses.
Yes, it is ALL about the money, or CAPITAL. By definition the sellers/corporations try to get money from the buyers/investors.
If you don't like it, don't play. Or do the best you can to retain at least some of your money. Those are good choices too.
The alternatives to capitalism (/fascism?) are out there. You could probably take up residence in a country that offers one if you really do not like the idea of profits going to entreprenuers and corporations.
If dealers are displaying greed, just ignore it. Make the offer that is fair in your estimation. If they say no, increase the offer or choose an alternative.
Choices are good. Yessiree!
WHERE ARE YOU BOBST?????
Beginning of what, Edmunds online? I mean did you buy a new Model T from the first batch?
I really don't care what you think. I know how I operate and how our store operates.
I don't even know who you are you must have a guilty conscience to think I have any idea of what dealership you work out of. I am not naming any names because I'm sure I'll have to pay my overpriced lawyer a lot to sort it and I don't intend to do that.
I don't know of anyone who sold S-2000's for a 10,000 markup but I certainly DO remember in 1990 when Miatas first came out and the huge markups that it took to buy one.
Funny I had no problem seeing ADM stickers all over S2000's.
I sure didn't buy a Miata in 1990, no way. Gouging galore at that time as you pointed out.
The Honda S2000 is a good car but it's very hard as daily driver I've driven them at auto-x and they are very high rpm cars and need a lot to not stall out and I saw a lot of news ones tall out until people learned to rev them higher.
I was laughing because no way was I going to buy the S2000 with the dealer pulling those stunts and then telling everyone then you'll never be able to get one as they are very rare :surprise:
Funny how they aren't so rare now. So are you guys charging full MSRP on your fits still or any discounts?
So far no Honda dealer will discount the Fit. It's a big seller so no need to give any price breaks.
>car you paid $10K over for and watch them laugh at how > upside down you are on the value.
I don't have a problem at all with what you write above. If somebody wants a car bad enough, they can pay more for the privilege of having the latest model before everybody else.
However, when it comes to trading/selling the car, why should they get compensated for it? I don't care how much above or below MSRP you paid. That is not relevant to the new transaction.
Somebody in that situation wants to have their cake and eat it too. Simple solution for this, don't pay a surcharge for driving the hot vehicle.
(disclaimer: I'm a consumer not a salesperson)
Depending on the person, I send them out to look and figure out a couple of cars they want (make/model/trim)and then figure out a price based on region and stuff, as well as how far they are willing to drive and their thresholds. I'm not so excited about sending them to LA to save $100 over the local dealer that is going to be servicing the car, unless there is a reason to avoid that particular dealer, in which case I have no idea what deal they would do because someone won't shop there.
I have set up deals via phone or via internet and if my family talks to someone at a dealership for a test drive or something, I try to use that guy for negotiations. Now that they are all getting e-mail it makes it even easier.
I do have favorite dealers (and sales guys) and I also know of a few that have cultural issues (some guy wouldn't talk to my mom without my dad there because she was just a woman - I had to explain to him the US doesn't work like that and he lost a sale) but no-one has gone out of their way to be an jerkwad.
I am sure every sales guy I met would've been a happy camper to let me pay MSRP for every vehicle. I tend to skip dealers with ADM stickers or wait until the craze has passed (I helped someone get a 92 Miata and a early but not 1st release PT Cruiser).
The sales guy is there to provide product knowledge, help you find a particular vehicle/options and some hand holding, they are not there to give you the "bro deal" on something they can't keep on the lot.
Now there's a great idea. Bigger government, more laws, more intrusion into private affairs. That's just great! (like we don't already have all those?)
You can't very well make it illegal to be ignorant or make it a crime to seek profits in a society like the U.S. Profits make our world go 'round.
If you can't swim, stay out of the water. Or at least take someone with you who knows how to rescue you.
Better yet, take swimming lessons. Seek advice from ones who know. Get educated. Don't be so proud and hardheaded to insist on learning at the school of hard knocks.
Some little fish are going to get eaten. So what? That's natural.
And yeah, I'm done too.
Hot tip: Don't feed the trolls. They grow. They get energy from it.
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Oh we get it but I wonder if you really do. Once an offer is given and accepted negotiations are over and you have a deal. If you don't want to buy a car for X amount of dollars then don't offer X amount of dollars.
In short you went to the dealership and lied. You said you would buy a car for a set amount and when it was accepted you ran. If this was turned around and the dealer reneged on you you would be screaming bloody murder.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I support the deal position and I am no longer in sales (haven't been in years).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I was stunned and silent as I didn't know what to say. Finally I basically said, "if that's the way you do business, then I won't buy anything from you". He simply said, "sorry". I complained to Edmunds, even sent them his emails. They called the dealer and tried to sway him, but in the end they said they were powerless to force them to honor the price. And I still refuse to ever consider buying anything from that dealer.
So, things like Isells story go both ways. And to be honest with you Isell, as long as you've been in car sales, I'm surprised it affected you as much as it did.
They were no better than the guy who made an offer and then reneged on it. Actually, they were worse since they were a dealer.
I am as much to blame as I brought your post to "light".
I'm not in sales but I do believe that if you made an offer to buy at a certain price you should go ahead and do so. If not why make the offer in the first place? I mean it is an offer to buy the car at a certain price right? The fact that the salesperson agreed to the price in a timely matter should not matter because you offered the price.
However, in retrospect, I imagine you will do as you please and that doesn't affect me one bit and if you can't see what all these posts are about that's ok too.
Why? I don't hold a dealer to a higher standard than I hold myself. Actually I tend to expect less and then when they do as they say, it's pleasant. In fairness the pleasant surprises are more frequent these days, but I dearly wish I could get my first offer accepted, no fuss no muss. Would save us both 15 or 20 minutes of dancing.
Thanks for your reply. In my emailed all dealers I would be willing to travel to (about 13). I included a description of exactly what I wanted, the fact that I wanted to purchase in the next few days, the OTD price I was willing to pay, and a detailed description of my trade in (a 2007 Ford F150 4x4 I won in a raffle--though I did not say a won it).
Before I sent the email I posted it on this forum to see what everyone thought (#2698)and took suggestions into consideration.
It seems on the "Prices Paid" forum a lot of people are doing their negotiations through email and going in to finish he deal. I thought I would give it a try but I have not had any luck getting close to the prices that are being posted (apples to apples--before TTL).
Maybe around here they don't like to deal through email. Most I got a reply from indicated they couldn't come close to the price I was offering.
Thanks so much for your input.
Nah, that's not right! A shopper NEVER tries to get a salesman to work for less.
A salesperson should be happy a shopper even comes in to the store. Without the shopper, the salesman has NO CHANCE of making money.
Every customer who buys increases the salesman's income. A buyer NEVER ends up making the salesman work for less. Exactly the opposite! Every buyer makes the salesman richer.
The shopper is not trying to get the salesguy to work for less money, he's just trying to buy a car for no more than necessary. He doesn't care how much the salesguy gets. Sure the salesman and the shopper have different goals as to price, but that's not really news now, is it?
A salesman's job is to hang around until a shopper drives in. Then his job changes. His new job is to make that shopper into a buyer who will pay more for a car than it is worth to the dealer. The amount over what the dealer knows his car is worth is called PROFIT.
A salesman's allegiance is to his employer and himself, not the buyer. He'll try to squeeze as much money out of the buyer as he reasonably (and sometimes unreasonably) can without alienating the buyer.
It's all about PROFIT. The more profits a saleman can generate, the better salesman he is. Not a better man, mind you, but only a better salesman.