Nissan Titan vs. Dodge Ram Hemi

aggiemph1 · January 2004

I agree with you rsholland, I will not buy another vehicle w/o ABS and as many airbags as I can afford. ABS has saved me a couple times, and side impact airbags would have saved my dads life.

For those of you who don't like ABS b/c of towing a trailer and driving on gravel, if you do the majority of your driving w/o a trailer and on paved roads I see no reason to not want ABS.

landru2 · January 2004

Show empirical data that it hasn't. :^)

landru2 · January 2004

Exactly. It's like the old anti-seatbelt chestnut you used to hear, "But they can kill you if you end up upside-down in a water filled ditch."

Yes, it may be true. But why does it make sense to equip yourself for that .1% chance where it may be detrimental and ignore the 99.9% chance of it being beneficial.

dustyk · January 2004

Since I'm assuming that you are intelligent enough to know better that it's impossible to prove a negative, your comment is sophomoric at best, but it shows, too, that you argue by assumption.

From the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety:

"4. Do car antilocks reduce crashes?

Although car antilocks perform well on the test track, there's no evidence they have made significant reductions in the number of on-the-road crashes. A 1994 Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) study and a subsequent 1995 study compare insurance claims for groups of otherwise identical cars with and without antilocks, finding no differences in the overall frequency or cost of crashes for which insurance claims for vehicle damage are filed. Because antilocks should make the most difference on wet and slippery roads, researchers also studied insurance claims experience in 29 northern states during winter months. Even here they found no difference in the frequency of insurance claims for vehicles with and without antilock brakes. A 1996 Institute study, as well as a 2000 update, reported no difference in the overall fatal crash involvement of cars with and without antilocks.
Federal studies of car antilocks are consistent with Institute and HLDI findings. According to one federal report, "the overall, net effect of antilock brakes" on both police-reported crashes and fatal crashes "was close to zero." The federal studies of effects of antilocks on passenger vehicle crashes found positive effects on wet roads and negative effects for run-off-road crashes. These two opposite results cancel each other. Leonard Evans, a researcher with General Motors, reported that antilock-equipped cars were less likely to rear-end other vehicles but more likely to have other vehicles rear-end them. Again, the net result was little effect on overall crash risk. In a study done for auto manufacturers, Failure Analysis Associates reported a net beneficial effect of antilocks on nonfatal crashes but no effect on fatal crashes."

http://www.hwysafety.org/safety%5Ffacts/qanda/antilock.htm

landru2 · January 2004

Lighten up dusty.

02ramman · January 2004

NHTSA explains the subject well.

dustyk · January 2004

My apologies.

Dusty

triat · January 2004

ABS hasn't been effective in accident statistics because many drivers don't know how to use ABS correctly. There is a pretty good learning curve.

I personally have known very few people who take the time to practice manuevers or emergency braking say on a Sunday morning in an empty parking lot. The moment of a possible impending collision is a little late to get in those counter steering or lane change under full braking drills....

A year ago I test drove the Tundra & Ram back to back with my girlfriend. Both vehicles broken in demo's. At 60mph slammed the brakes hard on the Tundra. Very fast stop under complete control with quick ABS pulsing & some slight tire chirping. The steering was still very responsive. An hour later in the Ram the salesman was bragging about 2 wheel ABS. At 60mph at same spot slammed on the brakes. To my surprise the right front wheel locked up. The Ram skidded a good 1-2 truck lengths past where the Tundra had stopped. Worse yet, there was no control. I turned the steering both directions, no response. We weren't impressed.

I didn't do a panic stop with the Titan. It was the first Titan in town many days before any other dealer. However I do feel more comfortable with 4 wheel ABS rather than 2 wheel ABS, and reviews on Titan's brakes seem to confirm my impressions.

dustyk · January 2004

.........for me to comment on the effectiveness of 4-wheel ABS since I just spent the last two hours trying to get my wife's Toyota out of a ditch because it just doesn't steer in snow with when the brakes are applied!

triat · January 2004

renegaded: I'm not sure I know what you mean "For those of us that have the ABS in our right foot for many years, it's downright painful" ??

dusty: You want 2 wheel ABS &/or you want it optional. We get it!

aggiemph1 · January 2004

surely the tires make more of a difference in steering in the snow than the brakes, whether ABS or not.

of course my car is non-ABS and it rarely snows here, but my brand new all season yokohamas did extremely well in the big february ice storm in dallas last winter, when my old tires wouldn't have gotten me out of the driveway. My advice to anyone who wants steering in the snow would be to lay some money down on all seasons if you live in the sunbelt like me, or buy winter tires if you don't.

triat · January 2004

a pretty generic term. ABS systems' effectiveness vary dramatically from even different model vehicles from the very same manufacturer. Thus ABS will be a controversial issue for some time yet.

ABS is not only highly dependent on driver experience, but also just as importantly on variables such as the brakes, tires, suspension, load conditions, and road conditions.

One crude example: A vehicle with adequate brakes and no ABS likely would stop shorter than the same vehicle with ABS but undersized brakes.

Besides the vehicle's variables, there is the ABS system itself. Most manufacturers have made many advances in ABS systems precision, and software programming. However with trucks, there is such a huge variance in combinations of payload,gvw,towing capacities, & on/off road 4x4 conditions; I think it's amazing they have come so far in such a shorter period.

I tried to point out before, no matter what vehicle we drive it's best to learn our vehicle's emergency handling/braking quirks in a practice setting before we need to rely on those skills in a split instant. That instant may be caused just as easily by nature as another vehicle.

bowke28 · January 2004

but i wouldnt rule it out either. once you understand the workings of it, the positives outweigh the negatives. i had it on a honda civic last winter here in KY...(big ice storm also). the problem, mr. renegaded, is that you've never been in a "no-win" situation in your vehicle. those are the ones that, with proper understanding of ABS, can become a "win-win".

ABS isnt meant to improve your handling of the jams. it is meant to get you out of the ones you havent dealt with yet. its also difficult to conceive the physics involved from the driver seat...so points of view that say "my foot is better than some computer" are simply ignorant in nature.

if you can cycle the brakes (pump on and off 1 time) every 2 seconds, and the ABS system can do it hundreds of times a minute, which is actually better? sounds more like fear of the unknown to me, which is exactly why i waited so long to use ABS.

aggiemph1 · January 2004

I think the only ignorant people are the ones you described as tailgating you b/c they have ABS and think that it will make them stop faster. ABS will only stop your car faster in a panic-stop situation where the brakes/tires would have instead locked.

Like Mr. Triat said, a non-ABS car with bigger brakes will likely stop faster than an ABS car w/ smaller brakes. Although the size of the brake rotors really only matters to reduce fade with rptd use and to reduce warpage, the clamping force of the calipers is what really helps you stop in a shorter distance.

Like triat said, there are other factors involved than just ABS. I would argue that the tires are more important than ABS,EBD, and VDC combined, b/c without the traction they give you, all those fancy acronyms don't matter.

something else people forget about is the quality of their suspension. A well maintained suspension is important in emergency maneuvers, because it will be easier to control.

I haven't said anything that most of ya'll didn't know already, but hopefully you'll find some food for thought.

gig em

jwilli420 · January 2004

Who cares about ABS, THE HEMI RAM IS GENERIC
thanks

bowke28 · January 2004

back on topic.

igotahemi · January 2004

Sorry! For getting on my soap box.
But, it is hard to believe that any foreign truck can be a FULL SIZE truck. America was built on the wide deep beds of Chevy, Dodge, and Ford. Trucks that were built in the 50's and 60's that are still going strong today.
I am in the market for a new truck and so far the Dodge Hemi is the only truck with power and good looks that I have been impress with. I am going to go give that Titan a spin. Hope to be equally impressed.

bowke28 · January 2004

the issue is that import trucks have never been full size before. i was skeptical before the titan came out. im a beleiver now. and its not just for the physical size...the titan has full size CAPABILITIES. actually more truck capabilities than the dodge or chevy. the ford is about equal. i hope you are as impressed as i have been.

tbeecher · January 2004

Why do people keep calling the Titan a foreign truck?

Tony

bowke28 · January 2004

but i think it's ignorance. people are ignorant to the fact that it was designed, engineered, and built by americans, in america. the unfortunate part about it is the fact that many of those people are so closed minded that they choose not to beleive it when people say it.

tbeecher · January 2004

I suppose these same people who KNOW that the Titan is inferior have never driven one either.

Tony - Went out to buy a Ram.. Drove a Titan home...

iowabigguy · January 2004

Maybe people believe it is a foreign truck because the profits leave the US and end up in Japan and France. And YES, maybe the RAM should be considered foreign now as well because the profits now go to Germany.

triat · January 2004

I was in shock for a little while the other day. Chev dealer advertised $10k off Suburbans. My recently married friend & now his wife expecting first child- asked me to take a look.

One sticker caught my eye: 85% foreign parts!! I looked again closer, it was made in Mexico!! Looked at those stickers on the other 30 or so Suburbans. About 50-50 U.S.-Mexico split.

I agree with renegaded in that foreign is when the company is owned in other countries. But with "foreign" companies investing billions in plants,workers,parts etc in N.America - I think the N.America vs. "foreign" is a little less meaningful than say 25 years ago. In those days foreign companies made money off of N.America raw materials, then made more money off of us selling us the finished product(cars)!!

I'm still surprised about the Chevys...

jwilli420 · January 2004

About 75% of the parts are from america, That is about the same as a Ford. The transmission is the only thing that comes from Japan. Nissan north america collects some of the profits. they all don't go over seas

bowke28 · January 2004

goes to US labor as well. anyone feel like going to the engine plant in TN, or the assembly plants in TN and MS, and telling them that the vehicles are foreign made to their faces?

didnt think so.

how about the toyota plant in KY?

or the honda plants in OH and AL?

or the hyundai plant being built in AL?

or the BMW, mercedes, mazda, isuzu,...

get he picture?

"foreign" auto manufacturers now employ more americans and put food on the table of more american families than "domestic" manufacturers.

bowke28 · January 2004

thats such a joke!

im spending $20k+++! i want the best for my money! if i see statistics that show imports last longer than domestics, and hold their value better, thats where my money goes. buy that honda instead of the ford, and you can put the sake on YOUR table.

i just wish i had your money, though, because you are so willing to throw it away. wish i could do that.

twinbladesz · January 2004

I have to agree if I'm going to spend 20-30K on a vehicle good enough is not what I'm looking for. I want the best for my money and not to be spending more money at the service Dept than in driving the vehicle around. Right now I drive an Explorer. Will be looking a for a full size tow vehicle for next one. In the running are the Titan Armada and the new F150. All good products but depending on their reliability that is what I will choose.

igotahemi · January 2004

Back from the Titan test-drive!
And, I have to admit that the combination of 305 horsepower and 2.94:1 torque left a good impression. Whether it was better than the Hemi, I am not quite sure. I would rank them about equal in the get up and go column. The titan offers a lot of option that dodge does not offer and that sports car like suspension really handles great. If I was wanting a sports car/truck, this would be the truck for me. But, I am looking for an off road, tree stomp pulling, winter fire wood hauling, full 6 foot bed (in a crew cab), full size truck. That isn't a Titan. I was surprise that the Titan (at least at this time) did not come with an anti-spin or slip differential. I see in the Nissan documentation that there is an option for a TCS (Traction Control System), but the dealer stated that this was not available yet.
At least for now, I am still a Dodge fan.

As far as the American made statement. Your Right! There are no more American made cars. Maybe, American assemble! But, not American made. I had a Pontiac LeMans that had parts from 23 different countries. But, at least Chevy, Dodge and Ford has kept up with American's love for full size trucks. Nissan and Toyota are just now (after how many years of selling cars in the US) getting into the full size truck market. So, excuse me for having a little bit of loyalty for trucks that have already proven themselves. I rather wait till some of you people, who have ran out and bought the Titan, to work out the kinks. Then, maybe a couple of years from now, I will considerate.

durocab · January 2004

After test driving the new F 150 as I was exiting the dealership I counted over 30 Ford trucks less than 3 years old. This is not a very big dealership. Why so many trade-ins and at such a loss. Wow! so many for so less in only 3 years time. No way these guys got their moneys worth. I just got offered thousands over what I owe on my Toyota Tacoma Dbl cab 4x4 (2001). (Had to get larger truck cause family is getting larger). And Dodge--- we know the trade-in resale value there. Story -- nobody knows on the Titan but I have faith in Mississippi. Fellow Southerners should give these guys a chance. Lord knows we forgave the Yankees why should Japan be any different..Oh, and we all forgot about Germany so quickly.. cause they made quality.... Light up the board.. I'm going for a drive..

rsholland · January 2004

Yeah, and thank God for that!

Bob

dustyk · January 2004

>>>And Dodge--- we know the trade-in resale value there...<<<

If that meant negative, that's not the story around here. Dodge RAM resales at about what GMs do, a little more than Ford.

Besides, the resale topic has been discussed before. It's like the old saw about manual transmissions having less "resale" value. Yes, the return is less but so was the initial price.

Dusty

durocab · January 2004

Was just filling up with gas and guy in a new dodge kept driving around my truck as I was showing it to another Ford owner.
Guy ask if I put the large tires on and I said "no came with truck" Boy was he impressed. He had purchased his Dodge 6 months ago and said he wished he had waited. I was hoping he was looking for a race!
I will admit that that Dodge Crew in silver is one fine looking truck. He said he like the front end of the Titan after I said that it would be the one part of the truck I would change. My opinion may change with Grill guard.

dustyk · January 2004

Resale value for motor vehicles are primarily based on supply and demand. Around here there are so many mini-vans and SUVs on the used market, that in general these used markets are flooded. Two examples of cars being the victim of their own success are the Chrysler mini-vans and Ford Explorers.

The latest count of the local Used Truck Trader records 115 Chevies, 21 GMCs, 148 F150s, and 18 Dodge RAMs. Obviously the quantity of Chevies and Fords in this small geographical market mean dealers are realizing more price competition and are working to keep prices down for those vehicles.

This same situation is the reason why used Tundras realize a high resale value. There were only 8 in the same issue. I suspect it will be the same for the Titan.

Dusty

roughlyright · January 2004

I was reading some old posts about price. MSRP was being compared between the Hemi Quad and the Titan. I am having a hard time deciding on which to get. As far as price goes though, a $30k Dodge can be had for 22k in Houston TX and a $30k Titan I'm guessing 28k. Both very close in options. What I am having a hard time with is the question of whether the Titan is $6k better. I like them both but if price was equal I would buy the Titan. How do you feel about this and am I close on the Titan price?

Thanks

durocab · January 2004

roughlyright, What kind of deal are you getting on your Titan? Dodge has definitely dropped their prices and I am seeing a lot of them in Texas as well. I took a gamble with the Titan for several reasons.. The thought put into various features as well as the "feel" and just the thought of having something different on the road. A Dodge guy inspected my truck yesterday and said he wished he had waited. His truck was 6 months old. To some extent I wish I hadn't test drove a Titan--that's all it took for me after looking over the bed system, HP, Towing capacity and torque I was sold although I like the looks of other brands. This Titan Is growing on me more each day as heads are turning and people are telling me how sharp it is.

Buying a car or truck in this instance is a lot of money but like my dad always said, "You'll always have a house or car payment might as well be happy with the one you choose".

tbeecher · January 2004

I have to agree with durocab. I had spreadsheets going with all kinds of analysis on the Titan vs. Ram Hemi. I analyzed the difference between the Laramie and the LE CC. I really wanted a Hemi but in the back of my mind I kept thinking about my wife's 1999 Dodge Grand Caravan ES. I always tell her "You can hear the sound of Chrysler quality". This stinking van has so many squeaks and troubles.

Anyway... After I drove the Titan it was no longer about money. I had to have one.. Now I get the really cool looks from people like "What is that thing?" I have a very bad habit of punching it whenever someone in an F-150 or Ram pulls up and checks out my Titan.

Tony

triat · January 2004

Hadn't heard it put that way especially the last part.

Like autos, many lines have become blurred(largely a good thing), and "foreign" is becoming more rare.
Thanks Bowke!

bowke28 · January 2004

did you receive my email?

brucec35 · January 2004

I drive an '03 Hemi Ram regular cab 2wd, but if I had to buy today with the Titan available for sale I would have a much harder choice. I did want a regular cab short wb truck because I tow a trailer for work and prefer the shorter rig for getting in and out of spots and parking. I also just don't have much need for the extra space, other than for storage. I would definitely test drive a Titan, though I feel some of the styling elements are a little forced and more "robotic" than they had to be. The general stance and lines are good. But w/o a regular cab option the Titan would cost more initially.

I thought the Hemi was a great deal. I have around $23,000 including taxes in it with 20" wheels, and various other options, due to Farm Bureau and Dodge rebates. I assume a Titan comparably equipped would be more like $28,000. But to me, the F150, Chevrolet, and Tundra aren't even in the running anymore. F150 ( expensive, not updated enough, don't care for the look on the non-pricey models). Chevy (had one, they're out of date in most aspects now), Tundra (homely, also had one of those)

brucec35 · January 2004

Stop worrying about resale values on full size pickups. They're all great compared to our 2003 Saab, which is worth about $10,000 less than we paid for it just over a year ago! : )

We're keeping it long term, so it doesn't matter, but any Truck is a relatively good reselling vehicle. So be sure to buy one you like and keep it, longevity is more important than brand. Quick sales are where you get burned.

bowke28 · January 2004

actually, the 2wd titan king cab XE stickers at $23050. you get the extra space AND the same performance for the same money.

twinbladesz · January 2004

In whose reality? Its all really just getting started with all of them except GM having brand new models.

bowke28 · January 2004

...so we can make them into rams.

;-)

dustyk · January 2004

Your comment was juvenile.

I use to like Nissan. Now I'm being turned off.

bowke28 · January 2004

please dont flatter me so...youre making me blush! ;-)

it was meant in fun...if you took it personally, then the problem is yours...not mine.

aggiemph1 · January 2004

please talk about the trucks, b/c thats what we're here for.

Thanks and gig em

PF_Flyer · January 2004

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat -- Our topic tonight is "Driving Distractions: What Makes You a Bad Driver?"

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

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Kirstie_H · January 2004

Reporter Brett Clanton is looking to interview a few people who have bought or are planning to buy a Chrysler or Dodge vehicle because of the Hemi. Please call him at 313-222-2612 or e-mail him at bclanton@detnews.com by Wednesday, January 28. Please feel free to contact me at jfallon@edmunds.com with any questions.
Thanks!
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

Kirstie_H · January 2004

Knock off the personal comments.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

dustyk · January 2004

Let's see, stroll into the dealer's today to buy a heater fan switch for my daughter's '02 Altima, and what do I see? Three, yes three Titans in the service bay. One had the gas tank out, the other had both front axles off. Don't know much about the third accept they had the battery out. Funny, the dealer's only sold four.

Look's like Nissan Titan quality is worthless.

Nissan Titan vs. Dodge Ram Hemi

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