I saw and read the MSNBC report,and it was OK.However they make a few assumptions-that gas will stay at roughly the current price-what do you think the price of gasoline will be in 5 years-$2.75/gal??Doubt it.They also assume that vehicles like the Highlander V-6 or the Pilot will continue to depreciate at current rates.Well,I was almost 30 during the 1979 blockade-oil crisis-and I can assure you that anything that wasn't "fuel efficient" droped like a stone resale wise.The "other midsized" SUV's get a good 7-8 mpg less in the city enviroment that most of us drive in.They might be absolutely un-sellable in 5 years just like used Suburbans are now!! At $5000 difference in price you break even-gasoline wise-at under 90,000 miles.If you assume insurance is $300 per year more that adds $1500 to the cost or 500 gallons saved-another 25000 miles-that makes breakeven at 115000 miles.Now do you really think anyone will be interested in buying a used 15 mpg(city) vehicle if gas hits $5/gallon??$6/gallons(what the Euros pay right now). ICE only midsized SUV's will be Suburbans in 5 years.We will still be years away from energy self sufficiency(growing fuel-alcohol and diesel oil,clean coal for electricity and liquid fuel,wind,solar panels on houses,more efficient light bulbs mandated.nuclear power plants etc. We are in for a rough ride energy wise. If I didn't already have a Pilot-very nice actually,but 14 mpg city-22-23 hy at 70+mph),it would even be close between a $37000 HH and a $31000 Ice H.You get better performance,all the safety features and good mpg for just $6000.There is a pretty fair chance that all this performance will be "free". Oh well.It is a very nice vehicle on it's own merits.Safe-efficient, fast,comfortable and exactly the right size for 2 adults and 2 retread greyhounds to travel.I would have bought a 4 cyl Highlander 2 years ago,but with my son traveling with us,it was a little small.Now-19 yo-he refuses to travel with his parents on long-3100 mile roundtrip) road trips.Thanks.Charlie PS Maybe it won't save you money,but you might get the extra performance-FREE!!
Calif. energy commission keeps historical data for gas pricing and by averaging all the price drops and increases since 1970, average rate of increase over the past 35 years is 2% a year.
But such news is getting old now with reporters assuming constant gas price and comparing Apples (HH) and Plums (Prius) and so on. I have not seen them compare HH against cars in its own class.
This is the most expensive car we have ever bought but it meets our many practical needs. We actually prefer it looking exactly like an ICE Highlander so it is non-descript. We are not out to make a statement, we have simply decided to live our beliefs quietly, and that means installing solar PV system on our roof to run our entire household and buying smaller and gas sipping cars whenever possible. We also take mass transit whenever possible to avoid driving.
Yes, if one buys the HH strictly for saving gas and ignoring the Prius, it will make no sense. I doubt that is what people are doing.
The service manager at our Toyota dealer says the Power Steering problem on our HH is a computer problem. Unfortunately they have to order a new computer part and that's probably going to take a few days. So I'm stuck driving an ICE Camry for now. How backwards, but hey, at least it has working power steering.
He said he has seen similar P/S issues on the Prius, but this was their first on a Highlander Hybrid. Lucky me...
FYI..I found out that there's a car wash and detail shop that offers a 15% discount for hybrid vehicles in Sacramento at Sunrise and Winding Way. I know it's for at least their car wash packages, not sure about their detailing packages.
The full table is available here. It includes estimates for upcoming models. The 06 Civic credits will differ from the values above and there might only be a CVT option available (more efficient computer control of mechanical parts).
Residents of Colorado will be able get a massive state/federal tax credit combination (assuming the state credits are still in effect in 06). It'll be something like $6584 for a new Prius.
I think you should take the extended warranty if you plan to keep the vehicle more than 3 years/36000 miles. It covers EVERYTHING and is not overly expensive. I took it with my Hybrid Limited all wheel drive.
This is old news, somone already posted this last week? Just another reporter trying to sell a few more copies.
Just to fill you in on our discussion, most of us see it in the following manner:
1. Our HH have impeccable interior.
2. Many of us are reporting 24 MPG to 29 MPG. I am up into 28+ MPG now. This is a V6 mid size SUV performing like, or better than, a V8 and getting 24 MPG right off the bat and then gets better.
Yes..very old and inaccurate news. I sat in one but did not drive it and it was extremely solid. I did drive the RH and talk about a cream puff!! The only journalists I trust today are the ones at CU.
Okay, husband (the tax attorney) got a copy of the new energy tax bill and here is his finding so far about tax deductions starting in 2006 (I'm going to be taking dictation here like a secretary so I don't mess this up):
"The tax credits are actually a combination of five separate credits, each of which your vehicle must qualify for separately. They all have certain basic criteria which a hybrid car might satisfy, such as being it or leasing it in 2006 and later. However, the credits which may be available for a particular car cannot be determined until the car has received required certifications from various Federal agencies and the manufacturer. It is anticipated that the IRS will have received the necessary certifications and will publish the amount of tax credits each vehicle will be entitled to this Fall. The only one that we know what the credit will be is the Prius which will be $3,100."
I don't know if that is helpful or not to those waiting to buy a hybrid until next year.
I believe I said in an earlier post that you don't have to itemize to take the hybrid deduction.
Once again, I've got my live-in tax lawyer standing next to me and once again, I quote:
"A hybrid deduction for 2005 is an adjustment to gross income in deriving net income. Since itemized deductions and/or standard deductions are deductions from net income to arrive at taxable income, the hybrid deduction may be taken regardless of whether you itemize deductions or take the standard deductions. There is a line on the 1040 form where you write in 'clean fuel deduction'. This will go on the front page of the 1040."
I Goggled tax form for hybrid vehicles and found a page that showed you exactly how to do it for your taxes. The only exception it said was if you purchased the hybrid strictly for business use and then you do it differently. The website I found showed that you wrote the words "clean fuel deduction' on line 35 of the front page of the 2004 tax form. It looked pretty simple. Of course, with a home based business (artist) and some rental property, our tax form looks like the great American novel. In my case, my HH is not my work vehicle, I've got an old Toyota pick-up truck for art shows (heck, I don't want to scratch up the beautiful new car!).
I also realized in an earlier post I said "being" instead of "buying". Duh. We have had heat index of around 110 F. and I think it's numbing my brain. Hope the above information helps.
Thank you very much. My Basic Model Highlander is due in early Sept. I have created a document in WORD where I paste all the entries from this forum that my be beneficial to me when I have the vehicle and when tax time rolls around.
Our current administration isn't very Green,so this is just a gesture from them to show how Green they are.It is supposed to counterbalance the HUGE incentives that were given to the hard pressed oil companies to prevent them going out of business. It does make some sense because these vehicles would take a long time to "pay back" their extra costs(Prius is maybe $8000 more expensive than a Corolla-or about 3000 gallons of gas more expensive-3000 gallons can push a Corolla 90,000 miles.Same story with a HH. A large part of the tax incentive is going to end up in the dealer's pocket of course-at least 1/2 is my guess.Come 1-1-06 they will have a long list of folks wanting to buy,and they will jack the price up about $1500-and get it.Car dealers are very,very good at pricing.Charlie PS-Folks will still end up $1000 better than current tax incentive.This will continue until the 60,000 are sold-then prices will drop.
Bought my Highlander Hybrid Limited with DVD Navigation off the lot at Toyota of Newburgh, located in New Windsor, NY. The original buyer balked. It took me a week after the test drive to call back and say,"Is that Highlander Hybrid still available?" Tony said yes, and I flew down there to complete the sale on a Friday; picked up the car the following Monday. Speak with Tony Ciccone. They charge MSRP (minus the $500 deposit). No more, no less. Very easy buying experience. We shall see about service...
I think a lot of these HOT cars are cooling off. I don't follow ford, but it seems there are plenty of toyota and honda dealers who have hybrids sitting on the lot. If this credit didn't exist, who's to say sales wouldn't stagnate in a year or two. Remember the tax credit goes for many years (exact # escapes me). Maybe a company like Toyota doesn't need a tax credit to sell its hybrids, but in a way, only a fraction of toyota buyers benefit from the credit (60,000+ out of a zillion). For other companies like nissan, ford, GM or anyone else late to the game, it will help out a proportionally higher number of buyers, thus helping to promote this technology among different manufacturers.
I also agree with what was posted earlier- I think this credit is a token gesture to counter balance the gross subsidy to oil companies.
There was a HH sitting on the lot where I ordered my car. I called and asked why they had a car if there was a waiting list. the sales guy (a different one than mine) said the original buyer backer out and they kept the deposit. So I asked if they were going to discount the car $250. he said no, they didn't need to.
Well it was soon after that I learned of the 2006 tax credit. I called my dealer and told him I wanted to back out. He said I would lose my $250. I said fine, but I knew a friend that might be interested and if he could take my place. he said ok, but he needed to know within a few days (the car wasn't coming in for another month). I asked why. he said if my friend doesn't take it, then he needs to start hitting the phones to find another buyer asap. I thought "you won't give me back my deposit, and you want me to release the car now so you can resell it for full price??" I'm thinking he can't have it both ways- either he gives me back the deposit so he can sell the car to someone else and get his commision, or he keeps my deposit and risks not selling the car to one of his customers.
Maybe I have a poor attitude, but this salesman has been a jerk so I don't feel like doing anything to help him out. I just read the previous post and thought "wow, that's what a normal dealer would do- discounting the deposit"
You definitely HAVE to get your deposit back. I always put that stipulation in any agreement. In some states it is illegal! The car was NOT special ordered and he can sell it to anyone. If you put it on a credit card, you do have recourse. I would threaten to sue. Please post the dealership where you did this transaction. I'll be happy to call them on your behalf.
When I first looked at getting a Prius I was told that the one Toyota dealership in town had an 18 month waiting list and they wanted a thousand dollars to get on the waiting list! I asked if they had a demo for me to try and the answer was no so I never signed up.
So when I found the HH on the car lot in Nashville I called my home town dealer and asked if they had any HHs on their lot and was told they had 18 pre-sold and a waiting list - again. The Nashville dealer had 3 or 4 HH (they'd had them less than a week and sold the two Limiteds in one day - one of them to me) and about 6 Prius ready to sell.
What was interesting was when I got home I needed the free cargo net they'd given me installed (you have to drill holes for it). I went to local dealer and while I was waiting for my car I asked if someone could help me a bit with the navigation system as I'd never used one before. The service people said ask the salespeople so I did and one nasty guy started mouthing off to me that I should take the car back to where I bought it and get them to explain it to me! 500 miles away.
I stood up (all four feet nine inches of me) and told the guy - in front of two other salesmen - that I had attempted to buy the car from them, they didn't have one, couldn't get me one, couldn't tell me when they could get me one etc. I told him "you know, I bought the 7 year extended warranty and I intend on keeping this vehicle for a very long time. You may not have gotten my money but your service department is sure going to get their share on all my oil changes, check-ups and repairs and whatever else the car needs." I couldn't believe I had mouthed off at him like I did but I was pretty angry.
Anyway, long story made short, one of the other salesman said something like "come one outside to your vehicle and I'll explain the NAV system to you" and he was really sweet about it and I thanked him a lot. The service people were very nice and said that that my HH was the first one ever in their shop, even if it was just for the cargo net. Of course they charged me for the installation (which the Nashville dealership would not have done but I literally didn't have time to wait - we bought the car and drove it home).
I'll be curious about dealing with these people over time. My husband used to have an Acura Legend and I had a CL and we loved the service department at the Acura dealership. Who works on your vehicle makes such a big difference and the Acura folks treat their clients like royalty. Clean comfortable waiting room, cappacino and fresh muffins and fruit. Fridge with water and soft drinks etc. Free loaner cars and pick up and delivery if you needed it. They also knew who both of us were and I really wish Acura made a hybrid if only to have continued such a nice relationship with that dealership.
I'll be curious to see how it goes with these Toyota guys as time goes on. We take our Toyota truck to an independent garage that works only on Japanese cars.
Service and sales departments are completely independent.The service guys don't care-and probably won't even know-where you bought the vehicle. Now the sales folks-everywhere,all makes-will always try to convince you otherwise,but it just isn't so.Frankly,there is frequently some animosity between the 2 depts because the sales guys make promises(zillion mpg) that the service guys have to "keep" ".My Prius only gets 53mpg-what is wrong with it" It will work out fine.Charlie
"Thank you very much. My Basic Model Highlander is due in early Sept. I have created a document in WORD where I paste all the entries from this forum that my be beneficial to me when I have the vehicle and when tax time rolls around."
The current incentives are a deduction, not a credit, keep that in mind. The value depends upon your tax bracket. I think it is a $1500 deduction for 2005.
I don't know why it is so hard to find out the current and closing price of oil.I can sit and listent to FOX MSNBC CNN,but I really don't care to hear the Ralph Lauren was down 3/8th points today. What is the web address that will spoon feed me this?? I just like to know if I should fillup today,or wait till tomorrow.I also like to grind my teeth with every increase.Thanks.Charlie
You can then click on "Crude", agree to terms, and get more details. This is not "live feed" because almost all live feeds (ticker) requires registration and $$$.
But the NON HYBRID DOES! How :confuse: stupid :mad: is that! Checked the two brochures. Compared the two manuals. Checked the Multi Function Display readouts. AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?
Any help?
ALL OF TOYOTA'S ADDS LEADING TO THE RELEASE OF THE HH STATED THE INCLUSION OF A TIRE PRESSURE MONITOR!
When we received an update e-mail from Toyota in March or April of this year and got the specification document, it did not show tire pressure monitor as a feature. I just checked again and cannot see it but of couse, my eyes are rather "old".
We are researching gadgets on the market that can do this. For now, we just check the tires every other day or so before we drive it.
2005 4x4 V8 4Runner Sport w/ Curtain bag option == $35949 MSRP. 2006 Base HH == $36848 MSRP 2006 Ltd HH == $42052 MSRP
The HH are $2K under MSRP now, true?
We looked at the 4Runner before deciding on the HH. I love the 4Runner's off-road capability but 90% of our driving is on pavement and the rest mostly on maintained dirt roads suitable for 2WD with high clearance, so no point investing in a 4Runner.
Mileage also varies depending on how we drive and the driving terrain. On flat freeways in the San Jose, CA area, the on-board computer consistenly reports intermediate 35MPG for my 32-mile (1-way) commute on HWY 101. Unfortunately, business or pleasure trips climbing over passes to the coast (20+ miles) or to HWY 5 (40+ miles) will kill the mileage down to about 15 MPG.
If I watch it and do some P&G as others suggested here, I can easily push intermediate MPG up to 28+ MPG. But if I gun it to 70-75 MPH on freeways, as I often do, MPG drops to 25.5-26 MPG.
Not bad for a car that performs like a V8 and still returns 25.5-26MPG. Too bad it is not a true 4x4.
The current 4 Runners won't get just 4 mpg less than the HH.CR tests show the 2003 4X4 v-6 4 Runner giving 16 mpg mixed 11 mpg city 22 mpg hy and 19 mpg trip The old 4 Runner was a smaller vehicle on the Tacoma frame-much lighter-maybe 900 less,so no surprise it gets better mpg than the new 4400 lb 4 Runner. The only SUV's that are in any way comparable to the HH in mpg are The CRV-CR shows it getting 21 mixed 15 city 29 hy 26 trip. The 4 cyl Highlander-no CR numbers. Now the HH is bigger than the CRV,more luxury oriented,and miles faster.It is obviously just the same size as the 4 cyl Highlander,but it is much more luxury oriented(it is impossible to find a side side curtain equipped 4 CYL Highlander,I have looked all over the country),and safety oriented;It is also Much,much faster. CR hasn't tested the RX400 or HH.My guess is that it will beat the CRV in the city-by about 4mpg (18- 19 mpg -close to a corolla which is 20) and it will match the 29 mpg HY.The test numbers might be lower because they will test the RX400 which is one EPA mpg poorer than the AWD HH-and 3 mpg down to the FWD HH. 25 mpg out of a midsized SUV is spectacular!!My AWD Pilot gets 13 city 22 hy,and it is one of the better rated midsized SUV's.Take a look at Trailblazer,V-6 Highlander(13-25 city hy) or Explorer numbers!!There are waaay more of them than Toyota Highlander 4 cyl or CRV's.Charlie The 4 cyl Highlander might be a great choice if you could get the safety features.The CRV-good choice also-but smaller and considerably downscale lux wise.
"My guess is that it will beat the CRV in the city-by about 4mpg (18- 19 mpg -close to a corolla which is 20) and it will match the 29 mpg HY."
My 2003 CR-V EX gets 21-22 city, 27 highway (75 MPH), just as a reference. If you drive it for thrills (higher RPM and jack rabbit starts - the VTEC is really fun), it will only get 19 MPG city, highway would not change, obviously.
All CR-V EX are limited time 4WD, which adds weight; the LX automatic (FWD) is the mileage champ. Due to higher final gear ratios, the manual transmission gets lower MPG, which is really strange. Also note that 2005 models have a 5 speed transmission rather than the 4 speed of my model.
I would probably go for the CR-V over the HH due to costs and preferring the ride and handling of the Honda. Also, it has a 34.7 foot turning radius. But it is not a hybrid, and probably won't be; Honda makes a diesel version for European sales that gets over 40 MPG. When low sulfur diesel arrives in quantity, that engine may well be imported the the US. I think the CR-V would make a good hybrid platform, but then I don't work for Honda!
As noted, not as much luxury. Also, Toyota engineers for ride, while Honda engineers for road handling. Utterly different design philosophy.
I think those of us who've bought this vehicle have done so for a wide variety of reasons. I personally was not thinking about the cost factor over the life of the vehicle or whether I'd get 28 or 32 mpg. I was unhappy with my car due to a really bad blind spot problem which had resulted in several near accidents and finally, in January, a minor - well, $1100 worth of damage to my car - fender bender in which I pulled out in front of another car I never saw. I knew I needed to be up in a higher vehicle but the low mileage of all the SUVs really turned me off. I had even said to my husband that I wanted the height of an SUV but decent mileage. We'd gone car shopping a few times and I'd driven the Acura MDX and the Honda Pilot and few other SUVs but really didn't like the low mileage (and the Acura ran on the super expensive gas too). I was in a real quandry about what to buy when I found out about the HH.
So the HH gets better mileage than my small car did and runs on regular gas. I get a tax deduction and it's a green car environmentally. I love it, it runs like a dream and handles beautifully. It was actually even cool enough briefly this morning to open the windows and sun roof for the first time. It has smart passenger airbag so the car won't kill a child riding with me and a great sound system. Heated front seats (which I love - even here in Florida as we have cold and damp winters).
So I was in the market for a new car and the HH was like an answer to my dream. Yeah, I would love a car that sat me up high and got 60 miles to the gallon. Maybe someday. So if you are in the market for a hybrid and you don't want a more bare bones model, well this is a great car. If you look at the bottom dollar line, buying any new car makes no sense. They are expensive, no two ways about it. You are much better off buying a "pre-owned" car coming off lease or something like that. And if it is just buying a hybrid that's important, well, shoot, get a Prius or that little Honda one.
My only worry right now is that Hurricane Katrina seems to be heading pretty close to my house and my HH. Sigh.
Well stated skepticism and requests for more data or proof are all reasonable but it is very frustrating when a very negative comment flies from "left field" especially when the comment is based on little hard facts. It gets worst when choice of words implies we are lying.
I do not work for Toyota nor interested in being their salesperson selling this car. But my wife and I have met many colleagues and friends and family who were/are just as skeptical and 1 in particular called us "stupid", she said we have been "duped" and "...will never get more than 20 mpg...".
In the interest of educating such skeptics and show them what well-executed hybrid technology can do for a large car, my wife has begun to keep a detail record of MPG history with our credit receipts from the pumps, digital photo of the odometer at fill-up, and on-board MPG value and our own computation. One day, we may scan it all and pop it up on the web.
We do not care if these people ever buy a hybrid, just want them to see the facts and either shut up or at least argue with more logic and solid facts.
I have read your previous posts with interest and found them to be informative, I look forward to more as your detail in FACTS is appreciated.
I am responding only to your comments in this post, which given the FACTS presented in my recent previous posts, contradict the following statements;
"left field'? I have been on this board when $3.00 gas was a hypothetical #' in addressing the 'return on investment' postings early on (not so long ago) so I have been an OWNER as well as player for a while...
'Hard facts'? My previous posts have addressed that issue, surf over to Greenhybrid.com if you don't believe me and 'see' for yourself. BTW "in the interests of educating such skeptics," perhaps you would choose to add your results?
"We do not care if these people ever buy a hybrid, just want them to see the facts and either shut up or at least argue with more logic and solid facts".
In closing, , perhaps you should 'dig a little deeper' respectfully, in order to establish how 'solid' your facts really are...as it regards this post, before launching arrows of your own.
ulev,if you want data,check the mpg postings here(close to 100 now) and at the RX400 Forum.Maybe a week or so back I tabulated the RX400 numbers and they were 24-25 mpg.There is plenty of hard data there.(well as hard as online data gets) If you want to save yourself some trouble,just take my word for it-24-25 RX400(way over 30 entries) and HH-25-26 -close to 100 entries.I only did the 1st 30 listings,but the numbers remained essentially unchanged after 10 postings(no surprise). So we have waaay over 100 pieces of data.You offer 2 pieces-your 4 Runners mpg,and a couple of tanks from your HH?? I don't have a HH,I have a Pilot.No ax to grind here.The HH is 7 mpg better than my Pilot.The Pilot is a better(mpg) than average midsized SUV-little worse than the V-6 AWD Highlander,but waaay better than the Explorer,Trailblazer-and a bit better than the 4 Runner.These statements are based on CR test numbers-not EPA-but the story is the same. You also have the NYT report on your side,but it was essentially a long trip hy test.There is absolutely no reason that a 4400 lb HH would return better mpg than a 4050 lb Highlander V-6.The regular highlander has weight on it's side,the HH has a more efficient transmission(maybe) on it's side.They are a wash-no reason to expect otherwise.There just isn't much braking energy captured in long trip hy driving. If the numbers had come out differently,they would have been suspect. The numbers here and at the tabulation at Green hybrids(forget the exact name of the site) are the same(probably are literally the same folks,of course). This discussion turned a bit heated when you strongly implied that 30 mpg posters were lying.Fewer than 10% of the postings are 30 mpg postings.This is EXACTLY what I would expect.Some very good,most clumped around the average,and some not so good.The absolute worst I have seen is an 18 mpg posting in the 400 Forum.There is also a 20 mpg poster who lives in Phoenix(115 degrees-lotta AC).I would love to get 18 mpg city with my Pilot(13 mpg-city- summer)! One question-do you doubt the 25-26 mpg average??Just the 30 mpg?? Thanks.Charlie PS- I'm a mpg nut-despite my Titan and Pilot-I constantly check mpg reports. Always check the weight.Then check Hybrid-diesel-hp-cyl etc.Weight tells the story of city mpg in normal(not hybrid not diesels) vehicles.The HH is going to be between a CAMRY 4cyl and a Corolla in city mpg- by CReports testing(MY GUESS).CR has posted numbers yet.
It's time to back off the personal edge on things here. Nobody is saying that everyone has to agree on everything, but the direction things are going here give every indication that this is turning into a personal beef.
So let's drop the personal digs now, before things get out of hand. There are times when you're going to have to agree to disagree.
If you have a personal disagreement with someone, the forums are not the place to play that out.
To quickly add fire retardant gell to this fire, let me first admit to my mistakes:
1. I mistook "ulev" for a non-owner. A critical error. 2. Because of #1 above, I clumped ulev with reporters and non-owners who post with little facts. 3. Couple #2 with how the word "BS" was used, I asked how can a non-owner accuse us of lying? 4. Because of #3, I let frustration get the better of me and fired off my post. 5. Because of #4, "ulev" rightly feels offended and "flamed".
Now I understand that ulev is just an owner who is voicing frustration or concerns over mileage number. I still disagree with use of the term "BS" but can appreciate ulev's MPG concerns.
For all that, I take full responsibility, admit mistakes, and hope it calms the fire. So no flame, no flame, not my way, never believe in it. This is a forum for us to share info and help each other, not a place to fan ego or flame people for posting opposing opinions.
As for facts and such, I will be happy to post those later, after this current fire has been contained, controlled and extinguished. Better to let it end, calm things down and start over again.
gasguzzler,I agree that normally the average would slowly improve.Folks would buy it,get low 20's in mainly city Suburban driving,and them start up the learning curve.But(yes,for you English majors out there,I know the but is wrong,but...) But,I think the early buyers were really committed mpg nuts and they probably got better initial mpg than later buyers .Of course,they will get even better,but there learning curve is less steep. I'm guessing that a normal driver(in the summer) will drive the HH like a normal car.He will get 20-21 in heavy city driving,and 25-26 in hy driving.(Heck,I have only seen ONE-ONE -ONE sub 20 mpg posting,and that was on the RX400 board).He will adopt some Hybrid techniques and will improve maybe 2 mpg city. A MPG nut can get 25 mpg city right out of the box.These folks will also milk the hy driving and get 30 on the hy. The 1st 10 mpg postings gave the same mpg(average) as the last 90-about 25-26 mpg. I think ULEV's main contention was the 30 and better.He used the "I can't get 30 mpg,so no one can get 30 mpg" school of logic.Heck,at 50 mph I can get 30 mpg with the Pilot(some of our best mpg numbers might come from 45-55 mph rides on country roads with no stops). The numbers posted here are perfectly consistant with the Prius forum numbers.They get about 40 mpg in heavy city(2/3 EPA).You folks get about 22 mpg city(2/3 EPA).The 25-26 average is because about 30-50% of these miles are probably hy miles(short distance hy miles where a good percent of the miles are free electrically boosted miles).An honest 28 mpg is not out of line on these miles.Consumer reports frequently get better hy miles than EPA-and from memory it got about EPA(51) hy figures in their HY test loop. Bottom line in the summer these HH's will get 20+ mpg in furnaces like Phoenix.A regular Highlander would get 12 or less.My Pilot would get 12 mpg.In normal places in the normal sort of mixed driving you do-you'll get 25 mpg. This HH is about 7 mpg better mixed than the average midsized SUV.It is probably about 4-5 mpg better than a V-6 Highlander-10 mpg better than a V-8 Explorer or straight 6 Trailblazer- 6mpg better than a Pilot. The 4 cyl Highlander is it's only real competition in the MIDSIZED mpg sweepstakes.The CRV bit smaller,so.....It gives 4CYL Highlander numbers. There aren't any really crummy mpg numbers here. I have run on.The HH is 7 mpg better than the average midsized SUV. I would be willing to make a friendly bet(Paypal $5) that the RX400 tested by CR will give 17 mpg city.This would mean the HH Fwd would get 19mpg city.If you grant me the 2 mpg(EPA says 3),I will take all bets.I don't think CR will ever test a FWD HH. A Corolla gets 20 mpg city(CR).19 mpg for a 4400 SUV is spectacular!!(most get 12 mpg on CR's loop).A 4 cyl Camry get 15 mpg city(CR).The RX400 is going to beat a 1200 lb lighter Camry). The Hybrid Escape AWD -3845 lbs- gets 22 mpg city CR-exactly 2/3 EPA.It BEATS A COROLLA BY 10%%!!!! Any friendly takers?Sorry to run on.The mpg numbers are in and are very good.Charlie PS Breakin on $7000 difference is ~100,000 miles.The extra performance and lux and green-ness will be free at 100,000)
I can see you point about early adopters being more committed - in both senses :-)
But, then again, gas was near $2 then and now it's nearer $3, so only Dick Cheney's not driving differently these days. I bet there are some late converts who are financially committed to better mpg. But you and my opinions on this are pure speculation.
I think we'll find improved #s over time and that's been true so far even by committed green drivers like myself. I'd be real interested if anyone had a hybrid BEFORE the HH and if they already knew how to drive one and if that made any difference. I'd be particularly interested in ulev's #s in 2k.
Sorry, I won't wager your bet because I can't change the outcome :-) I like to bet on myself in any race.
No, seriously, I don't know what CR will get but your supposition seems accurate.
But they won't be trying to get the best possible MPG (which I openly am) and there won't be a wear in (as we've discussed). The numbers I'm getting (and plenty are getting the same now) seem 90% related to how I drive, 10% car wear in and perhaps a cool off in summer temperatures that would make for less AC and engine cooling.
I think it's fair to say that 30+ers are saying 'this is what you can get if your try.' Not, this is what the HH gets in any normal test. As I said, I wonder what I'd get in my old 4R if I drove like this. Surely better than 20mpg.
However, no one can claim that I'm all aglow about T or the HH. I've criticized both more than I've complimented. And even now I'm saying I shouldn't have to drive like this to get these numbers.
Landdriver,in my heart of hearts I agree that the V-6 Highlander is probably 6-7 mpg short of the HH,but I said that a few weeks back-when calculating payback-and some irate Highlander V-6 owners immediately insisted that the Highlander V-6 was all but a Prius in it's modest drinking habits. Gasguzzler,it is a shame that Toyota left 2- mpg on the table by chosing the V-6,but I guess they figure they couldn't sell of $50,000 4 cyl to Lexus fans.It might have been 50-100 lbs lighter with that smaller 4 cyl.The Escape is delivering 30 mpg -not bad.The HH would have still been 4300 lbs to 3850 lbs,but I would guess that Toyota might have been able to match the mpg(because they make better cars).The Focus (2800 lbs)delivered 17/32 on CR city/hy loops.The Camry (3285lbs delivered 16/34.This was the latest Focus with the decent Mazda motor-the old Ford 4 cyl gave 15 mpg city. I think we will get the 4 cyl HH in 2-3 years.They can also dump the useless 3 row and maybe a few other gegaws(simpler sound system-fewer speakers etc).Just give me a power drivers seat,the safety stuff and an instant mpg readout.I would pay extra for some high quality-Centerline-forged aluminum alloy wheels(stock size) to drop maybe 3-4 lbs/wheel ,and I would pay extra for low rolling resistance tires.I think they could drop a 4 CYL FWD HH down to 4200 lbs.Just the weight drop should be worth 4% improvement in city mpg. Oh well,gotta get ready to leave(New Orleans).Glad you mentioned bikes.I'll toss the MTB in the back of the pickup.If it hits we might just keep going west to Flagstaff,AZ.We make that 1500 mile trip in 25 hrs,but this time there will be 2 vehicles,3 cats,2 greyhounds,myself,wife and 19 yo son,so our trip time will be a little longer with this circus.Thanks.Charlie.
One thing about the 4cyl engine is that they could've fitted a larger electric motor (or two seperate on each side!) under the hood. Actually, I'd never thought of this before, but it's feesible that this way they could've had a 4cyl and 0-60 under 7 and great mpg. With electric's instant torque this could've been done (with more batteries). It would be super quick.
Help me with the calculations but the v6 has 208hp and the 4cyl has 155hp. One front motor puts out 167hp. If you had two motors, wouldn't that make the total hp higher?
But I think you're right. What we're getting in the HH is an afterthought of the 400h, which is a bit funny because usually T's designing big picture and Lexus is trying to adapt to their line.
Must admit that I love the 3rd row for our kids. But suspect that it'll come out for more battery space when there's a plug in for the HH.
Gazguzzler,hmmm,a little more space could make room for a bigger electric motor.The downside-as you mentioned-is the battery would be depleted more quickly if you did many 0-60 sprints. You know,I'm not really sure what the max output of the electric motor is-I thought it was 60-80 hp?? You have a 3 and a 5 yo?!Yeah,the 3rd row is fine for kids 12 and under.It does make the HH a better kid hauler.Mine is 19,with 19 yo friends,so. Now your mention of taking it out for batteries makes me wonder why it couldn't be a "take out" seat like many minivans have.Lose that extra weight when you don't need it. I'm a weight-especially wheel weight-fanatic.With lighter wheel-tire combos you get a free lunch-better city mpg-better acceleration-better ride-lighter springs.The only problem is paying for the lighter wheels-forged rather than cast.It probably wouldn't be more than~$100 per vehicle.Heck,folks pay $1000 for leather and it doesn't "do" anything better than the cloth it replaces(probably even heavier). I would really attack the weight-maybe an aluminum frame like the Corvette.Then go to a TDI motor. Use a tiny 4 cyl TDI with an aluminum block(maybe 100 hp max).The 170 hp would be enough for reasonable performance and you could get maybe 35 mpg city. Oh well,I had better get prepared to leave.We-New Orleans-are in the bullseye."See" you in a few daysCharlie
Comments
At $5000 difference in price you break even-gasoline wise-at under 90,000 miles.If you assume insurance is $300 per year more that adds $1500 to the cost or 500 gallons saved-another 25000 miles-that makes breakeven at 115000 miles.Now do you really think anyone will be interested in buying a used 15 mpg(city) vehicle if gas hits $5/gallon??$6/gallons(what the Euros pay right now).
ICE only midsized SUV's will be Suburbans in 5 years.We will still be years away from energy self sufficiency(growing fuel-alcohol and diesel oil,clean coal for electricity and liquid fuel,wind,solar panels on houses,more efficient light bulbs mandated.nuclear power plants etc.
We are in for a rough ride energy wise.
If I didn't already have a Pilot-very nice actually,but 14 mpg city-22-23 hy at 70+mph),it would even be close between a $37000 HH and a $31000 Ice H.You get better performance,all the safety features and good mpg for just $6000.There is a pretty fair chance that all this performance will be "free".
Oh well.It is a very nice vehicle on it's own merits.Safe-efficient, fast,comfortable and exactly the right size for 2 adults and 2 retread greyhounds to travel.I would have bought a 4 cyl Highlander 2 years ago,but with my son traveling with us,it was a little small.Now-19 yo-he refuses to travel with his parents on long-3100 mile roundtrip) road trips.Thanks.Charlie
PS Maybe it won't save you money,but you might get the extra performance-FREE!!
But such news is getting old now with reporters assuming constant gas price and comparing Apples (HH) and Plums (Prius) and so on. I have not seen them compare HH against cars in its own class.
This is the most expensive car we have ever bought but it meets our many practical needs. We actually prefer it looking exactly like an ICE Highlander so it is non-descript. We are not out to make a statement, we have simply decided to live our beliefs quietly, and that means installing solar PV system on our roof to run our entire household and buying smaller and gas sipping cars whenever possible. We also take mass transit whenever possible to avoid driving.
Yes, if one buys the HH strictly for saving gas and ignoring the Prius, it will make no sense. I doubt that is what people are doing.
He said he has seen similar P/S issues on the Prius, but this was their first on a Highlander Hybrid. Lucky me...
-Chris
Haven't driven it enough to form impressions yet - I'm only up to 30-something miles (I got it at 4).
thusiast
Real Name: Gregory
Location: VA
Hybrids: Honda Insight
Posts: 33
Re: New Energy Bill: Tax Credits for Hybrids
Tax credit estimates from "American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy", a Washington based energy group:
Prius: $3150
Highlander 2wd: $2600
Highlander 4wd: $2200
Escape 2wd: $2600
Escape 2wd: $1950
RX400: $2200
Civic CVT: $2100
Civic MT: $1700
Insight CVT: $1450
Accord: $650
Silverado/Sierra 2wd: $650
Silverado/Sierra 2wd: $250
Insight MT: $0 (LEV emissions are not good enough)
VW Diesels: $0 (emissions also)
The full table is available here. It includes estimates for upcoming models. The 06 Civic credits will differ from the values above and there might only be a CVT option available (more efficient computer control of mechanical parts).
Residents of Colorado will be able get a massive state/federal tax credit combination (assuming the state credits are still in effect in 06). It'll be something like $6584 for a new Prius.
http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan11e_20050811.htm
This is old news, somone already posted this last week? Just another reporter trying to sell a few more copies.
Just to fill you in
1. Our HH have impeccable interior.
2. Many of us are reporting 24 MPG to 29 MPG. I am up into 28+ MPG now. This is a V6 mid size SUV performing like, or better than, a V8 and getting 24 MPG right off the bat and then gets better.
3. We like its performance.
Now what is that you were meaning to say???
I found it easily at:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002447385_hybridbreak21.html
mmreid
"The tax credits are actually a combination of five separate credits, each of which your vehicle must qualify for separately. They all have certain basic criteria which a hybrid car might satisfy, such as being it or leasing it in 2006 and later. However, the credits which may be available for a particular car cannot be determined until the car has received required certifications from various Federal agencies and the manufacturer. It is anticipated that the IRS will have received the necessary certifications and will publish the amount of tax credits each vehicle will be entitled to this Fall. The only one that we know what the credit will be is the Prius which will be $3,100."
I don't know if that is helpful or not to those waiting to buy a hybrid until next year.
mmreid
Thanks for providing this information
Why is the US Government throwing away money on hot vehicles that have a waiting list?
Once again, I've got my live-in tax lawyer standing next to me and once again, I quote:
"A hybrid deduction for 2005 is an adjustment to gross income in deriving net income. Since itemized deductions and/or standard deductions are deductions from net income to arrive at taxable income, the hybrid deduction may be taken regardless of whether you itemize deductions or take the standard deductions. There is a line on the 1040 form where you write in 'clean fuel deduction'. This will go on the front page of the 1040."
I Goggled tax form for hybrid vehicles and found a page that showed you exactly how to do it for your taxes. The only exception it said was if you purchased the hybrid strictly for business use and then you do it differently. The website I found showed that you wrote the words "clean fuel deduction' on line 35 of the front page of the 2004 tax form. It looked pretty simple. Of course, with a home based business (artist) and some rental property, our tax form looks like the great American novel. In my case, my HH is not my work vehicle, I've got an old Toyota pick-up truck for art shows (heck, I don't want to scratch up the beautiful new car!).
I also realized in an earlier post I said "being" instead of "buying". Duh. We have had heat index of around 110 F. and I think it's numbing my brain. Hope the above information helps.
mmreid
It does make some sense because these vehicles would take a long time to "pay back" their extra costs(Prius is maybe $8000 more expensive than a Corolla-or about 3000 gallons of gas more expensive-3000 gallons can push a Corolla 90,000 miles.Same story with a HH.
A large part of the tax incentive is going to end up in the dealer's pocket of course-at least 1/2 is my guess.Come 1-1-06 they will have a long list of folks wanting to buy,and they will jack the price up about $1500-and get it.Car dealers are very,very good at pricing.Charlie PS-Folks will still end up $1000 better than current tax incentive.This will continue until the 60,000 are sold-then prices will drop.
I also agree with what was posted earlier- I think this credit is a token gesture to counter balance the gross subsidy to oil companies.
Well it was soon after that I learned of the 2006 tax credit. I called my dealer and told him I wanted to back out. He said I would lose my $250. I said fine, but I knew a friend that might be interested and if he could take my place. he said ok, but he needed to know within a few days (the car wasn't coming in for another month). I asked why. he said if my friend doesn't take it, then he needs to start hitting the phones to find another buyer asap. I thought "you won't give me back my deposit, and you want me to release the car now so you can resell it for full price??" I'm thinking he can't have it both ways- either he gives me back the deposit so he can sell the car to someone else and get his commision, or he keeps my deposit and risks not selling the car to one of his customers.
Maybe I have a poor attitude, but this salesman has been a jerk so I don't feel like doing anything to help him out. I just read the previous post and thought "wow, that's what a normal dealer would do- discounting the deposit"
So when I found the HH on the car lot in Nashville I called my home town dealer and asked if they had any HHs on their lot and was told they had 18 pre-sold and a waiting list - again. The Nashville dealer had 3 or 4 HH (they'd had them less than a week and sold the two Limiteds in one day - one of them to me) and about 6 Prius ready to sell.
What was interesting was when I got home I needed the free cargo net they'd given me installed (you have to drill holes for it). I went to local dealer and while I was waiting for my car I asked if someone could help me a bit with the navigation system as I'd never used one before. The service people said ask the salespeople so I did and one nasty guy started mouthing off to me that I should take the car back to where I bought it and get them to explain it to me! 500 miles away.
I stood up (all four feet nine inches of me) and told the guy - in front of two other salesmen - that I had attempted to buy the car from them, they didn't have one, couldn't get me one, couldn't tell me when they could get me one etc. I told him "you know, I bought the 7 year extended warranty and I intend on keeping this vehicle for a very long time. You may not have gotten my money but your service department is sure going to get their share on all my oil changes, check-ups and repairs and whatever else the car needs." I couldn't believe I had mouthed off at him like I did but I was pretty angry.
Anyway, long story made short, one of the other salesman said something like "come one outside to your vehicle and I'll explain the NAV system to you" and he was really sweet about it and I thanked him a lot. The service people were very nice and said that that my HH was the first one ever in their shop, even if it was just for the cargo net. Of course they charged me for the installation (which the Nashville dealership would not have done but I literally didn't have time to wait - we bought the car and drove it home).
I'll be curious about dealing with these people over time. My husband used to have an Acura Legend and I had a CL and we loved the service department at the Acura dealership. Who works on your vehicle makes such a big difference and the Acura folks treat their clients like royalty. Clean comfortable waiting room, cappacino and fresh muffins and fruit. Fridge with water and soft drinks etc. Free loaner cars and pick up and delivery if you needed it. They also knew who both of us were and I really wish Acura made a hybrid if only to have continued such a nice relationship with that dealership.
I'll be curious to see how it goes with these Toyota guys as time goes on. We take our Toyota truck to an independent garage that works only on Japanese cars.
mmreid
Now the sales folks-everywhere,all makes-will always try to convince you otherwise,but it just isn't so.Frankly,there is frequently some animosity between the 2 depts because the sales guys make promises(zillion mpg) that the service guys have to "keep" ".My Prius only gets 53mpg-what is wrong with it"
It will work out fine.Charlie
The current incentives are a deduction, not a credit, keep that in mind. The value depends upon your tax bracket. I think it is a $1500 deduction for 2005.
What is the web address that will spoon feed me this??
I just like to know if I should fillup today,or wait till tomorrow.I also like to grind my teeth with every increase.Thanks.Charlie
Try http://www.nymex.com/index.aspx
You can then click on "Crude", agree to terms, and get more details. This is not "live feed" because almost all live feeds (ticker) requires registration and $$$.
Have fun.
Any help?
ALL OF TOYOTA'S ADDS LEADING TO THE RELEASE OF THE HH STATED THE INCLUSION OF A TIRE PRESSURE MONITOR!
False Advertising?
When we received an update e-mail from Toyota in March or April of this year and got the specification document, it did not show tire pressure monitor as a feature. I just checked again and cannot see it but of couse, my eyes are rather "old".
We are researching gadgets on the market that can do this. For now, we just check the tires every other day or so before we drive it.
Aren't you missing 15 years of inflation there? What is the 4runner in 2005 dollars?
2006 Base HH == $36848 MSRP
2006 Ltd HH == $42052 MSRP
The HH are $2K under MSRP now, true?
We looked at the 4Runner before deciding on the HH. I love the 4Runner's off-road capability but 90% of our driving is on pavement and the rest mostly on maintained dirt roads suitable for 2WD with high clearance, so no point investing in a 4Runner.
Mileage also varies depending on how we drive and the driving terrain. On flat freeways in the San Jose, CA area, the on-board computer consistenly reports intermediate 35MPG for my 32-mile (1-way) commute on HWY 101. Unfortunately, business or pleasure trips climbing over passes to the coast (20+ miles) or to HWY 5 (40+ miles) will kill the mileage down to about 15 MPG.
If I watch it and do some P&G as others suggested here, I can easily push intermediate MPG up to 28+ MPG. But if I gun it to 70-75 MPH on freeways, as I often do, MPG drops to 25.5-26 MPG.
Not bad for a car that performs like a V8 and still returns 25.5-26MPG. Too bad it is not a true 4x4.
The old 4 Runner was a smaller vehicle on the Tacoma frame-much lighter-maybe 900 less,so no surprise it gets better mpg than the new 4400 lb 4 Runner.
The only SUV's that are in any way comparable to the HH in mpg are
The CRV-CR shows it getting 21 mixed 15 city 29 hy 26 trip.
The 4 cyl Highlander-no CR numbers.
Now the HH is bigger than the CRV,more luxury oriented,and miles faster.It is obviously just the same size as the 4 cyl Highlander,but it is much more luxury oriented(it is impossible to find a side side curtain equipped 4 CYL Highlander,I have looked all over the country),and safety oriented;It is also Much,much faster.
CR hasn't tested the RX400 or HH.My guess is that it will beat the CRV in the city-by about 4mpg (18- 19 mpg -close to a corolla which is 20) and it will match the 29 mpg HY.The test numbers might be lower because they will test the RX400 which is one EPA mpg poorer than the AWD HH-and 3 mpg down to the FWD HH.
25 mpg out of a midsized SUV is spectacular!!My AWD Pilot gets 13 city 22 hy,and it is one of the better rated midsized SUV's.Take a look at Trailblazer,V-6 Highlander(13-25 city hy) or Explorer numbers!!There are waaay more of them than Toyota Highlander 4 cyl or CRV's.Charlie
The 4 cyl Highlander might be a great choice if you could get the safety features.The CRV-good choice also-but smaller and considerably downscale lux wise.
My 2003 CR-V EX gets 21-22 city, 27 highway (75 MPH), just as a reference. If you drive it for thrills (higher RPM and jack rabbit starts - the VTEC is really fun), it will only get 19 MPG city, highway would not change, obviously.
All CR-V EX are limited time 4WD, which adds weight; the LX automatic (FWD) is the mileage champ. Due to higher final gear ratios, the manual transmission gets lower MPG, which is really strange. Also note that 2005 models have a 5 speed transmission rather than the 4 speed of my model.
I would probably go for the CR-V over the HH due to costs and preferring the ride and handling of the Honda. Also, it has a 34.7 foot turning radius. But it is not a hybrid, and probably won't be; Honda makes a diesel version for European sales that gets over 40 MPG. When low sulfur diesel arrives in quantity, that engine may well be imported the the US. I think the CR-V would make a good hybrid platform, but then I don't work for Honda!
As noted, not as much luxury. Also, Toyota engineers for ride, while Honda engineers for road handling. Utterly different design philosophy.
So the HH gets better mileage than my small car did and runs on regular gas. I get a tax deduction and it's a green car environmentally. I love it, it runs like a dream and handles beautifully. It was actually even cool enough briefly this morning to open the windows and sun roof for the first time. It has smart passenger airbag so the car won't kill a child riding with me and a great sound system. Heated front seats (which I love - even here in Florida as we have cold and damp winters).
So I was in the market for a new car and the HH was like an answer to my dream. Yeah, I would love a car that sat me up high and got 60 miles to the gallon. Maybe someday. So if you are in the market for a hybrid and you don't want a more bare bones model, well this is a great car. If you look at the bottom dollar line, buying any new car makes no sense. They are expensive, no two ways about it. You are much better off buying a "pre-owned" car coming off lease or something like that. And if it is just buying a hybrid that's important, well, shoot, get a Prius or that little Honda one.
My only worry right now is that Hurricane Katrina seems to be heading pretty close to my house and my HH. Sigh.
mmreid
I do not work for Toyota nor interested in being their salesperson selling this car. But my wife and I have met many colleagues and friends and family who were/are just as skeptical and 1 in particular called us "stupid", she said we have been "duped" and "...will never get more than 20 mpg...".
In the interest of educating such skeptics and show them what well-executed hybrid technology can do for a large car, my wife has begun to keep a detail record of MPG history with our credit receipts from the pumps, digital photo of the odometer at fill-up, and on-board MPG value and our own computation. One day, we may scan it all and pop it up on the web.
We do not care if these people ever buy a hybrid, just want them to see the facts and either shut up or at least argue with more logic and solid facts.
"Why would one invest in a depreciating asset?"
This from a Porsche salesman during the ' height' of the Dot.Com frenzy.
I have read your previous posts with interest and found them to be informative, I look forward to more as your detail in FACTS is appreciated.
I am responding only to your comments in this post, which given the FACTS presented in my recent previous posts, contradict the following statements;
"left field'? I have been on this board when $3.00 gas was a hypothetical #' in addressing the 'return on investment' postings early on (not so long ago) so I have been an OWNER as well as player for a while...
'Hard facts'? My previous posts have addressed that issue, surf over to Greenhybrid.com if you don't believe me and 'see' for yourself.
BTW "in the interests of educating such skeptics," perhaps you would choose to add your results?
"We do not care if these people ever buy a hybrid, just want them to see the facts and either shut up or at least argue with more logic and solid facts".
In closing, , perhaps you should 'dig a little deeper' respectfully, in order to establish how 'solid' your facts really are...as it regards this post, before launching arrows of your own.
All in the interest of TRUTH in MPG.
If you want to save yourself some trouble,just take my word for it-24-25 RX400(way over 30 entries) and HH-25-26 -close to 100 entries.I only did the 1st 30 listings,but the numbers remained essentially unchanged after 10 postings(no surprise).
So we have waaay over 100 pieces of data.You offer 2 pieces-your 4 Runners mpg,and a couple of tanks from your HH??
I don't have a HH,I have a Pilot.No ax to grind here.The HH is 7 mpg better than my Pilot.The Pilot is a better(mpg) than average midsized SUV-little worse than the V-6 AWD Highlander,but waaay better than the Explorer,Trailblazer-and a bit better than the 4 Runner.These statements are based on CR test numbers-not EPA-but the story is the same.
You also have the NYT report on your side,but it was essentially a long trip hy test.There is absolutely no reason that a 4400 lb HH would return better mpg than a 4050 lb Highlander V-6.The regular highlander has weight on it's side,the HH has a more efficient transmission(maybe) on it's side.They are a wash-no reason to expect otherwise.There just isn't much braking energy captured in long trip hy driving.
If the numbers had come out differently,they would have been suspect.
The numbers here and at the tabulation at Green hybrids(forget the exact name of the site) are the same(probably are literally the same folks,of course).
This discussion turned a bit heated when you strongly implied that 30 mpg posters were lying.Fewer than 10% of the postings are 30 mpg postings.This is EXACTLY what I would expect.Some very good,most clumped around the average,and some not so good.The absolute worst I have seen is an 18 mpg posting in the 400 Forum.There is also a 20 mpg poster who lives in Phoenix(115 degrees-lotta AC).I would love to get 18 mpg city with my Pilot(13 mpg-city- summer)!
One question-do you doubt the 25-26 mpg average??Just the 30 mpg??
Thanks.Charlie
PS- I'm a mpg nut-despite my Titan and Pilot-I constantly check mpg reports.
Always check the weight.Then check Hybrid-diesel-hp-cyl etc.Weight tells the story of city mpg in normal(not hybrid not diesels) vehicles.The HH is going to be between a CAMRY 4cyl and a Corolla in city mpg- by CReports testing(MY GUESS).CR has posted numbers yet.
So let's drop the personal digs now, before things get out of hand. There are times when you're going to have to agree to disagree.
If you have a personal disagreement with someone, the forums are not the place to play that out.
You are right
I agree to disagree !
Thats my last comment on this topic.
For the sake of TRUTH in MPG
sorry, could'nt resist
To quickly add fire retardant gell to this fire, let me first admit to my mistakes:
1. I mistook "ulev" for a non-owner. A critical error.
2. Because of #1 above, I clumped ulev with reporters and non-owners who post with little facts.
3. Couple #2 with how the word "BS" was used, I asked how can a non-owner accuse us of lying?
4. Because of #3, I let frustration get the better of me and fired off my post.
5. Because of #4, "ulev" rightly feels offended and "flamed".
Now I understand that ulev is just an owner who is voicing frustration or concerns over mileage number. I still disagree with use of the term "BS" but can appreciate ulev's MPG concerns.
For all that, I take full responsibility, admit mistakes, and hope it calms the fire.
So no flame, no flame, not my way, never believe in it. This is a forum for us to share info and help each other, not a place to fan ego or flame people for posting opposing opinions.
As for facts and such, I will be happy to post those later, after this current fire has been contained, controlled and extinguished. Better to let it end, calm things down and start over again.
But,I think the early buyers were really committed mpg nuts and they probably got better initial mpg than later buyers .Of course,they will get even better,but there learning curve is less steep.
I'm guessing that a normal driver(in the summer) will drive the HH like a normal car.He will get 20-21 in heavy city driving,and 25-26 in hy driving.(Heck,I have only seen ONE-ONE -ONE sub 20 mpg posting,and that was on the RX400 board).He will adopt some Hybrid techniques and will improve maybe 2 mpg city.
A MPG nut can get 25 mpg city right out of the box.These folks will also milk the hy driving and get 30 on the hy.
The 1st 10 mpg postings gave the same mpg(average) as the last 90-about 25-26 mpg.
I think ULEV's main contention was the 30 and better.He used the "I can't get 30 mpg,so no one can get 30 mpg" school of logic.Heck,at 50 mph I can get 30 mpg with the Pilot(some of our best mpg numbers might come from 45-55 mph rides on country roads with no stops).
The numbers posted here are perfectly consistant with the Prius forum numbers.They get about 40 mpg in heavy city(2/3 EPA).You folks get about 22 mpg city(2/3 EPA).The 25-26 average is because about 30-50% of these miles are probably hy miles(short distance hy miles where a good percent of the miles are free electrically boosted miles).An honest 28 mpg is not out of line on these miles.Consumer reports frequently get better hy miles than EPA-and from memory it got about EPA(51) hy figures in their HY test loop.
Bottom line in the summer these HH's will get 20+ mpg in furnaces like Phoenix.A regular Highlander would get 12 or less.My Pilot would get 12 mpg.In normal places in the normal sort of mixed driving you do-you'll get 25 mpg.
This HH is about 7 mpg better mixed than the average midsized SUV.It is probably about 4-5 mpg better than a V-6 Highlander-10 mpg better than a V-8 Explorer or straight 6 Trailblazer- 6mpg better than a Pilot.
The 4 cyl Highlander is it's only real competition in the MIDSIZED mpg sweepstakes.The CRV bit smaller,so.....It gives 4CYL Highlander numbers.
There aren't any really crummy mpg numbers here.
I have run on.The HH is 7 mpg better than the average midsized SUV.
I would be willing to make a friendly bet(Paypal $5) that the RX400 tested by CR will give 17 mpg city.This would mean the HH Fwd would get 19mpg city.If you grant me the 2 mpg(EPA says 3),I will take all bets.I don't think CR will ever test a FWD HH.
A Corolla gets 20 mpg city(CR).19 mpg for a 4400 SUV is spectacular!!(most get 12 mpg on CR's loop).A 4 cyl Camry get 15 mpg city(CR).The RX400 is going to beat a 1200 lb lighter Camry).
The Hybrid Escape AWD -3845 lbs- gets 22 mpg city CR-exactly 2/3 EPA.It BEATS A COROLLA BY 10%%!!!!
Any friendly takers?Sorry to run on.The mpg numbers are in and are very good.Charlie
PS Breakin on $7000 difference is ~100,000 miles.The extra performance and lux and green-ness will be free at 100,000)
I'd say more like 6-7 mpg better -- V6 HL owners report around 18-19 mpg in mixed driving vs. HH's 25-26 mpg!
[DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT, REPEAT, AM NOT, A HH OWNER -- I JUST LIKE POSTING TO THE HH BOARD OCCASIONALLY!!! (END DISCLAIMER...)]
I can see you point about early adopters being more committed - in both senses :-)
But, then again, gas was near $2 then and now it's nearer $3, so only Dick Cheney's not driving differently these days. I bet there are some late converts who are financially committed to better mpg. But you and my opinions on this are pure speculation.
I think we'll find improved #s over time and that's been true so far even by committed green drivers like myself. I'd be real interested if anyone had a hybrid BEFORE the HH and if they already knew how to drive one and if that made any difference. I'd be particularly interested in ulev's #s in 2k.
Sorry, I won't wager your bet because I can't change the outcome :-) I like to bet on myself in any race.
No, seriously, I don't know what CR will get but your supposition seems accurate.
But they won't be trying to get the best possible MPG (which I openly am) and there won't be a wear in (as we've discussed). The numbers I'm getting (and plenty are getting the same now) seem 90% related to how I drive, 10% car wear in and perhaps a cool off in summer temperatures that would make for less AC and engine cooling.
I think it's fair to say that 30+ers are saying 'this is what you can get if your try.' Not, this is what the HH gets in any normal test. As I said, I wonder what I'd get in my old 4R if I drove like this. Surely better than 20mpg.
However, no one can claim that I'm all aglow about T or the HH. I've criticized both more than I've complimented. And even now I'm saying I shouldn't have to drive like this to get these numbers.
Gasguzzler,it is a shame that Toyota left 2- mpg on the table by chosing the V-6,but I guess they figure they couldn't sell of $50,000 4 cyl to Lexus fans.It might have been 50-100 lbs lighter with that smaller 4 cyl.The Escape is delivering 30 mpg -not bad.The HH would have still been 4300 lbs to 3850 lbs,but I would guess that Toyota might have been able to match the mpg(because they make better cars).The Focus (2800 lbs)delivered 17/32 on CR city/hy loops.The Camry (3285lbs delivered 16/34.This was the latest Focus with the decent Mazda motor-the old Ford 4 cyl gave 15 mpg city.
I think we will get the 4 cyl HH in 2-3 years.They can also dump the useless 3 row and maybe a few other gegaws(simpler sound system-fewer speakers etc).Just give me a power drivers seat,the safety stuff and an instant mpg readout.I would pay extra for some high quality-Centerline-forged aluminum alloy wheels(stock size) to drop maybe 3-4 lbs/wheel ,and I would pay extra for low rolling resistance tires.I think they could drop a 4 CYL FWD HH down to 4200 lbs.Just the weight drop should be worth 4% improvement in city mpg.
Oh well,gotta get ready to leave(New Orleans).Glad you mentioned bikes.I'll toss the MTB in the back of the pickup.If it hits we might just keep going west to Flagstaff,AZ.We make that 1500 mile trip in 25 hrs,but this time there will be 2 vehicles,3 cats,2 greyhounds,myself,wife and 19 yo son,so our trip time will be a little longer with this circus.Thanks.Charlie.
One thing about the 4cyl engine is that they could've fitted a larger electric motor (or two seperate on each side!) under the hood. Actually, I'd never thought of this before, but it's feesible that this way they could've had a 4cyl and 0-60 under 7 and great mpg. With electric's instant torque this could've been done (with more batteries). It would be super quick.
Help me with the calculations but the v6 has 208hp and the 4cyl has 155hp. One front motor puts out 167hp. If you had two motors, wouldn't that make the total hp higher?
But I think you're right. What we're getting in the HH is an afterthought of the 400h, which is a bit funny because usually T's designing big picture and Lexus is trying to adapt to their line.
Must admit that I love the 3rd row for our kids. But suspect that it'll come out for more battery space when there's a plug in for the HH.
You know,I'm not really sure what the max output of the electric motor is-I thought it was 60-80 hp??
You have a 3 and a 5 yo?!Yeah,the 3rd row is fine for kids 12 and under.It does make the HH a better kid hauler.Mine is 19,with 19 yo friends,so.
Now your mention of taking it out for batteries makes me wonder why it couldn't be a "take out" seat like many minivans have.Lose that extra weight when you don't need it.
I'm a weight-especially wheel weight-fanatic.With lighter wheel-tire combos you get a free lunch-better city mpg-better acceleration-better ride-lighter springs.The only problem is paying for the lighter wheels-forged rather than cast.It probably wouldn't be more than~$100 per vehicle.Heck,folks pay $1000 for leather and it doesn't "do" anything better than the cloth it replaces(probably even heavier).
I would really attack the weight-maybe an aluminum frame like the Corvette.Then go to a TDI motor.
Use a tiny 4 cyl TDI with an aluminum block(maybe 100 hp max).The 170 hp would be enough for reasonable performance and you could get maybe 35 mpg city.
Oh well,I had better get prepared to leave.We-New Orleans-are in the bullseye."See" you in a few daysCharlie