1) Why I see so few HHs on the road. I live 60 miles south of Chicago, but am in the city and suburbs a lot. Plus, since last summer I've been to Austin, Dallas, Milwaukee, and the Sacremento area. Total HHs (and LHs) spotted since last July (I identify them by the wavy-blue-striped tag on the rear door): two. Like Pete Seeger says, where have all the hybrids gone?
Owners like discussion1 live with their vehicles daily and post here frequently with reallife experiences and strategies. I tend to give more weight to these reports than to a tester in a 400 mi jaunt, who btw probably doesnt know how to best utilize the features of the HSD system. True such a writer is supposed to be impartial and represent a 'typical' driver ( all use this phrase ) but what that phrase means is that they have chosen not to drive in the most efficient manner - if they even understand how.
IMO such an article is one view point only of an inexperienced driver.
Vehicles on the road? The Rh was launched in April and the HH in June. Big initial interest but the price is a deterrent for most Toyota budgets. Sales though according to Toyota are consistent in the 2000 / month range. But there are 1700 stores in the US/Canada so that means about 1 per store per month. Some smaller stores may only sell one a quarter.
Deals? In CA where they were hottest they are selling at invoice because some of the mega stores have as many as 20-50 unsold.
I was told to use regular gas in my HH by the dealership(and confirmed again on this forum) and have had no problems. I tried one tank of premium after I had just gotten the car and saw no difference.
I only have seen one other HH here in Tallahassee and apparently the owner lives in the neighborhood adjacent to mine - it's exactly the same - a gold Limited. I keep thinking we should meet or something! We probably live less than a mile apart.
I was in Nashville, TN last weekend (where I bought my HH) and two doors down from my daughter's house was a new silver HH Ltd that hadn't been there the month before. Apparently she had gotten a cash settlement in a divorce and at a lunch with my daughter and friends said she needed a new car with two kids and a huge dog and didn't like SUVs and mini-vans etc. but needed a bigger vehicle. Someone mentioned the HH and she said she had thought about it but didn't know anyone that owned one. My daughter said something about my having one and loving it and she could call me. I never got the call but apparently knowing that someone had bought it and loved it was enough to convince her to buy the vehicle.
But you don't see that many hybrids on the road. I've seen one Ford Escape hybrid here in town, an Insight every now and then and a lot more Prius - of course, they've been around longer. There was an article in our local paper a few months back about four families on one street here in town and they each had purchased a Prius. Happy campers.
Have absolutely no direct information but "heating problems" could mean premature failure of the electric coolant pump motor, or any one of a number of "small" failures unique to the RXh and HH.
My wife came out of a store the other day to get into our gold HiHy and there was some guy with his key fob out clicking the unlock button like crazy right next to the drivers door. She asked him if he needed help breaking into our car, and that is when they noticed that his was right next to ours on the passenger side. Same color HiHy as ours. Otherwise, it does appear that we are in quite the minority. On the other hand, I see Prius's (Prii?) all over the place here in Eugene, OR. In fact, my sister has one and my folks have 2 (one in Eugene, one in Yuma AZ.) So, I guess my family has embrassed this technology wholeheartily!
I don't know about the cooling problem - never heard of it. And I use regular gas.
It may make sense to ask the mechanic instead of forum members because the mechanic claimed such problems exist.
Did he/she hear it from Toyota tech-bulletin? from other shops that worked on HH? Did he actually work on HH that had/have such problems? How does he/she know about this?
It will be important for owners here to know if there is a real problem so we are prepared.
Dear wwest, jslate, mmreid, kdhspyder, and discussion1,
Thanks to you all for responding to my queries.
Now, let this potential buyer carry the discussion further: what does the fact that there are so few HHs on the road imply for availability and quality of service? Every Toyota dealer has, I gather, trained some mechanics in the technology (my local dealer here in this exurb 60 miles south of Chicago says theirs are "Master Mechanics," apparently the highest level of training/skill. He also says that of the numerous HHs he's sold, none of them is to people living around here, and that his Masters haven't done anything but oil changes and other routine maintenance.). But if there are so few customers for them that they don't get any experience, how comfortable can an owner be that, should serious repairs be required, they're going to be done by somebody who knows what they're doing?
It can be rough trying to get something fixed properly after it was misrepaired the first time.
And now for something completely different: Jim Slate, what is the red-gold-and blue symbol after your name in #2558? It looks like water in front of a gold pineapple or moneybag. Is it a flag? From where?
Had a blast the past 2 days toying with a visiting friend's 2005 BMW X3 ($42K). We drove each other's cars close to 200 miles through a few local twisty highways in rain storms and high wind. Dave, our X3 friend, came away really impressed by the HH. He said our HH beats his X3 in engine responsiveness and almost matches the X3 in handling. I am bias of course and prefer our HH's handling .
The X3 has good road feel, very quick and precise steering response but just a tad light compared to our HH. I have to pay a bit more attention to compensating for the lightness. Its slower engine torque response also requires more management of speed entering and exiting curves. As a result, it is slightly busier and more tiring driving the X3 on a long twisty mountainous highway.
The HH also has good road feel (thanks to our new SUV tires, not the lousy original), almost as quick steering response with excellent steering weight. The weighty feel compensates easily for the slightly slower steering response. The instant torque makes speed management simple so I can focus on steering through the curves with ease. This makes driving fun and my wife calls that "sweet" .
Where X3 beats our HH is in torque steer. X3 has none but the HH has some given the right circumstance.
Not sure why Toyota put out a Toyota that can match a luxury-class X3 but we love it. With the right set of tires, it sure is a fun car to drive and it is rated SULEV and it is a gas-electric hybrid!
The symbol is a flag of the country Kiribati, which I must admit, I don't have the faintest idea where is. I just liked the looks of it. I thought it was a sun rise or sun set over the ocean.
Although there may not be that many on the road, for the most part, they are a 'standard' Highlander with a bit (expensive and rather heavy bit) of extra stuff. I never go to the dealer for service, preferring an independent repair shop whenever possible. When I purchased this vehicle, I checked with them, and they said that they could work on it, and even had sent a couple of mechanics to school to learn about them. On a related note, my wife used to have a Volvo 850 that needed some work done that required the dash to be removed. The dealer that sold it did the work, and they had to call Sweden and talk to the factory to figure out how to remove it. So, I guess I'm saying that the dealers don't necessarily have all the info needed to repair them, but resources are probably available to help them or indepent repair shops.
I think you don't see too many of them because thay are so dang expensive!
Good point about service experience. Hopefully, the on-board service computer can help with diagnosis. From friends who own Prius, they have had no problems so far with normal mechanical repairs. Their gripes have been diagnosis of software glitches. THe big one last year was about Prius suddenly losing power. A colleague said his dealership did nothing meaningful until he called Toyota. Strange for a dealership to not want to contact Toyota. Luckily, his Prius never lost power on the road, he was just trying to find out if an upgrade was due.
Then again, if the car is truly reliable, it should make all the mechanics doze off in the service bay waiting for work . THat is not such a bad thing.
We were not into speed or anything unsafe, just enjoying how the cars took all the curves and steep terrain. The X3 and the HH are really built for driving. The X3 interior oozes luxury and refined design while the HH is of course, solidly practical Toyota.
I think the fact that there are so few HH on the road is lack of availability. . .I had to buy mine 500 miles from home as local dealer had a long waiting list.
As for service, so far I've taken it in to have the cargo net installed and for the 5,000 mile tune-up. Other than having them forget to turn off the 5,000 mile warning (I did it myself) light about needing a tune-up, they seemed to know what they were doing. . .or I can only hope. I've had zero problems mechanically but of course I've only got 6,6000 miles on the odometer. I did ask the mechanics how much they knew about the vehicle and they claimed they'd been trained to work on them. I also used Toyota's own body shop to fix the scratch where I scraped up against a tree (sigh) and they did a nice job matching paint etc.
All that said, I would buy this vehicle again in a heartbeat. I took a risk since I bought it without much research or thought - saw it on the lot, loved the way it handled, loved the fact it was a hybrid and paid cash. Scary! A big investment and I'm usually not that imprudent. I have a husband who researches something like a video camera for 6 months before he takes the plunge. . .and we bought this car very quickly. He drives a 528i BMW and is looking at a Z4 (I'm trying to convince him to wait for a sports car hybrid) but admits my HH is a better car for long car trips - the gas savings alone and low mileage has him choosing it when we do that 1,000 round mile trip to and from Nashville to see the grandkids.
By the way, has anyone bought one of those inserts that fit when the back seats are folded down? We have a 58 lb dog and I've wondered if one of those makes sense to keep puppy feet off the leather seats. . .?? It's a standard Highlander insert that was in a booklet I found at the dealership while waiting for my tune-up.
Anyone leased a limited without navigation in SoCal recently? I was offered msrp of $38,696 and wonder how much I can reasonably negotiate down from there given that people are paying 3-4K over invoice. $2000 down, 36 monts at $499 + tax.
Could "this" (link below) be the new 2007 HH engine? 339-hp (253 KW) with torque through the roof, 0-60 in 5 seconds, two-Stage torque in CVT to maximize efficiency at cruising speed, smaller battery pack, controller and a whole mess of new stuff, and still get 28-MPG???
GM has been talking about the 2-stage too and I thought domestic is about to catch up or leap-frog Toyota.
Wow, if this is the new engine for the new larger (Sienna-like) 2007 HH, I may give in to my wife's desire and get it. Add HyMotion's Plug-in technology and we may never again have to buy another car.
What I find so interesting is the Honda Insight numbers. Apparently Americans are not so eager to purchase a vehicle that compromises seating capacity and cargo space in order to maximize fuel economy. Plus, I think it's ugly!
Today I went to my local dealer (and took another test drive, the first in about 6 months. It was great; I've come away with renewed enthusiasm.) and asked the salesman what kind of gas the vehicle uses. I expected him to say, "Well, you're SUPPOSED to use premium, but in fact you can get away with regular."
He walked me to the showroom model, opened the glove box, took out the manual, and showed me the back cover where it said: use regular.
It did go on to say something to the effect that you'll get better performance if you use premium.
Well, that's great news as it officially eliminates the dilemma I was experiencing between saving money with the better mpg of the hybrid and losing money to the higher cost of premium.
So onward & upward.
I'm sorry, Ms. Reid (is it Mary Margaret, by any chance?), that you had to go 500 miles to find a HH. This dealer here has four or five of em; I walked home from there.
No, it's not Mary Margaret (I'm not Irish Catholic, short Brooklyn Jewish actually). . .
As for having to go 500 miles to get my HH, I was in Nashville, TN, baby sitting my adorable granddaughers and my ex-husband, of all people, suggested that they had hybrids at the local Toyota dealership. To my great surprise (considering how much he'd lied to me when we'd been actually married) there were cars on the lot. Both Prius and HH's!!
I don't know if anyone else has CNN on their radar, but tonght they had a link to the top 10 cars for this year from Consumer Reports and the Hylander Hybrid was one of the cars listed! As a Consumer Reports regular subscriber I was kinda tickled to see that! We've been regular subscribers to the magazine for years plus starting getting the on-line service a few years ago.
Here is a very surprising point about the hybrids, Prius', HH and soon the TCH. The hybrid system needs no maintenance.
The only maintenance needed is to the ICE segment which is oil/filers, timing belt at ~ 60K and the normal hoses and gaskets if you keep it well over 100K. On the 4c's there is no timing belt it's a chain so that is gone.
On the Prius and TCH only oil/filters/tires ... and the brakes will last you probably 3 times as long if you use the HSD system to it's best advantages.
There has to be a 'hybrid-certified' Master tech in each shop that sells a hybrid... but he's like the Maytag man.
Not sure why Toyota put out a Toyota that can match a luxury-class X3 but we love it. With the right set of tires, it sure is a fun car to drive and it is rated SULEV and it is a gas-electric hybrid!
As you well know the HH is really a 400h incognito. You were actually comparing a BMW to a Lexus.. especially since you own the Ltd version.
Same factory, same line, same engine, same HSD/PSD, same frame... only the body style and interior niceties differ.. and not a whole lot when considering your Ltd trim.
Similarly the Avalon always has been the LS body on the ES engine/drive train... with a few modifications.
Put a Camry next to an ES330 and it's amazing that the body panels are exactly the same, save a few curves and tweaks.
The Outback and the Forester were on our final list last year before we settle on the HH.
We finally went with the HH because of the SULEV rating, the VDIM, the cargo room and a gamble at getting good mileage. So far, so good. Not many 2-ton cars can get 28-30 MPG. I was real skeptical paying so much for the HH but it has really grown on me.
I am pretty excited. First new car in 9 years. Longo Toyota (www.longotoyota.com) in Los Angles CA had 93 in stock. Allen Hon was great to work with, all done via email from my house here in San Diego. Front door delivery within 120 mile radius. Not a bad deal. Ended up with the Limited that has a MSRP of $40,694. That touch screen Nav is going to be pretty cool. Moon roof, what am i going to do with all these features on in this car??
Anyone have any opinions on an extended warrenty? I have never been a fan of them, but wondering if all the extra suff with the Hybrid would make it worth it. But it seems all the hybrid releated components have the toyota 8 years/100,000 mile warranty already. Plus its a Toyota what could go wrong?
By the way, seems like a great group of people here. Great reading all the info, made buying this car much easier. Was going to wait for the V6 RAV4, but wife and I really liked this one better, plus more heafty so better for hauling around the grandkids.
I did buy the extended warranty - mainly because the price was really reasonable and it seemed like a good idea. I think it was $800. For like an extra 7 or 8 years (I'd have to go read my paperwork).
Sorry to be so fuzzy. Bought the vehicle in June and can't remember all the details now. But a very happy camper.
I think the main issue I've heard from other people is not that they don't want one but the price is ultimately the issue. Which is kind of sad. I am hoping down the road that more folks can afford "green" vehicles and hybrids or alternative fuel cars and not only those of us who can pay the premium for the new technology. I'd really like to see more hybrids and/or alternative fuel cars on the road. . . I'm quite interested in this new plug-in technology and if it becomes even remotely affordable I'd love to check it out, as long as it didn't void my Toyota warranty. As someone who does mostly local driving and not many miles per day, it sure sounds like something that I would benefit from in a big way. If more information becomes available, please post it here! mmreid
by discussion1: It may make sense to ask the mechanic instead of forum members because the mechanic claimed such problems exist.
Did he/she hear it from Toyota tech-bulletin? from other shops that worked on HH? Did he actually work on HH that had/have such problems? How does he/she know about this? +++ OK, Discussion1, I did talk to the guy today. He's far from the stereotypical mechanic: he's multidimensional, intelligent, patient, articulate. Works only on Saabs and Volvos in a Chicago suburb. His shop is immaculate; the floor is WHITE.
None of which kept him and me from being on different pages in our previous discussion: he was talking about Priuses (Prii?). He said he new of no established problems in the HH, and that "it's one of the very best choices you could make." Toyota, he said, is simply the best.
Thanks a lot for double-checking, was actually worry that the mechanic did hear something we HH owners should worry about. Good to know it is false alarm for now. No judgement passed on the mechanic either, I am sure he is a qualified good guy. Thanks again.
Glad you're comforted, D1. Actually he said a little more, which I was trying to write up and post but have gotten computerized out of. I'll try to retrieve it and post the whole thing. I think you'll find it of interest.
discussion1 said (#2561): "It may make sense to ask the mechanic instead of forum members because the mechanic claimed such problems exist. Did he/she hear it from Toyota tech-bulletin? from other shops that worked on HH? Did he actually work on HH that had/have such problems? How does he/she know about this?"
+++
D1, I did talk to the guy today. He's far from the stereotypical mechanic: he's multidimensional, intelligent, patient, articulate. Works only on Saabs and Volvos in a Chicago suburb. His shop is immaculate; the floor is WHITE.
None of which kept him and me from being on different pages in our previous discussion: he was talking about Priuses (Prii?). He said he knew of no established problems in the HH, and that "it's one of the very best choices you could make." Toyota, he said, is simply the best.
Well, then, spurred on by you and wwest (#2557: "Have absolutely no direct information but "heating problems" could mean premature failure of the electric coolant pump motor, or any one of a number of "small" failures unique to the RXh and HH.") I asked this guy if he knew about electric coolant pump motors going bad. He said any time you get something electrical you run the risk of it failing, and that if a coolant motor did so in this case, it could take out a number of things, including the radiator. But again, he did not know of this to be a generic HH problem.
So, I consider this good news. It reinforces my leanings to get an HH.
And then I went to my own mechanic. This is an independent and a good man; he's one of the main reasons my currently-held Land Cruiser is going on 15 years old.
He's recently taken a safety course on hybrids, taught by a Snap-On guy for CarQuest. He learned some really interesting things; they spoke mostly about Prii (Priuses?) and Hondas and such; he said he didn't remember any discussion per se of HHs. So none of the following relates directly to HHs.
One thing they anticipate is that hybrids will be a high-maintenance vehicle: because the ICE doesn't get warmed up like a regular motor, it is likely to carbon up, and thus need to be cleaned out with some regularity. Unless, of course, it gets driven enough at high speeds to clean out the carbon.
The batteries for these things are enormously powerful, far beyond conventional ones. And they can't be allowed to drain, making the car not the choice for snowbirds and anyone else who stores their car for long periods. They're shipped here in dry ice, and dealers can't stock them.
The vehicles can be accidently started by the transponder in the key fob remote, even if it's only hanging in the door lock. This can be very dangerous for whoever is working on them at the time. So the recommendation is to have the transponder at least nine feet away from the vehicle when it's being worked on. Also, shops should keep a 14-foot fiberglass pole handy, so that if a hybrid mechanic does start getting electrocuted, they can use it to rescue him.
One of the first things emergency workers and mechanics and towers do for some wrecked or disabled vehicles they arrive at is cut the battery cables, to prevent fires. But so powerful are the hybrid batteries that to do that with a hybrid battery could kill the cutter.
...because the ICE doesn't get warmed up like a regular motor, it is likely to carbon up,...
Do you know if he is referring to carbon build-up around the spark plug tip? Funny you mentioned this because my in-law is a mechanic (retired USN) and was just talking about this regarding our HH.
He said lots of short trips or low speed operation will not generate enough heat to prevent carbon deposits. He did say a modern auto engine like that in the HH has to reach above 850-F for self-cleaning to occur. Just driving the car (in ICE mode) above 30-MPH should generate enough heat to start burning off the deposits. So a run of 65-MPH (in ICE mode) for some miles should burn off deposits.
Interesting stuff because I learn just enough to operate these machines, not enough to fix them .
I live in Canada and got hit with a ton of snow last week. The HiHy tracked like a tank while the rest of the traffic was left behind including a police cruiser. There was an excellent study done on traction in snow by a Canadian group and the HiHy came in second behind a Mercedes with awd
OK, youall, this potential HH purchaser wishes to refine his search with the answers to these questions:
1) If you buy a HH at Dealer A, but wish to have it serviced at Dealer B, will you in fact get service at B of equal quality to A, even tho you didn't buy it at B?
2) Can you buy a new HH from Carmax? How likely a bet are they? Do they do warantee service? Has anybody done it successfully?
3) Is it true that CostCo can get car quotes, or has some kind of clout re buying cars? How well does that work?
4) Who is the best dealer to buy from in the south suburbs, and further south, of Chicago?
We bought ours in Southern CA but we live in Northen CA. Local dealership has no problem servicing the car. Service dept mgr was courteous, helpful and quite knowledgeable. They even reset the 5000-mile service warning light.
I can only respond to question #1 since I bought my car in Nashville, TN and took it 500 miles home to Florida. I've taken it in twice to the service dept - once to get the cargo net installed and the second time to have the 5,000 mile service done. The service guys seemed nice.
The only problem I had the first time was while waiting for service to finish up I wandered into the sales area to ask a question about the NAV screen from a salesperson and one of the guys was super rude to me because I hadn't bought the car from them. I told him I'd have bought the car from them but when I called they had a waiting list of 18 ahead of me and the dealer in Nashville had the car on the lot. Another salesman promptly came over and went out to my car with me and explained some of the NAV features. He did apologize for the other guy.
I'll answer #2 - I live in Colorado and purchased my HH from Carmax in MD. All the dealers in CO had 12 to 18 month waiting lists, I found exactly what I wanted on the CarMax website, handled all the paperwork via overnight mail and picked it up a few weeks later (when I could arrange a flight out there). I assume that they do warranty service as they are a dealer but obviously haven't done any of that. My local dealer services my car with no problems.
The Sales Dept, Service Dept and Parts Dept are actually 3 separate businesses under one roof at a typical dealership. Each should 'support' the other but each has to stand on it's own in making a profit and maintaining customer satisfaction. All three report to the Gen Mgr.
Any service department will be happy to service your vehicle it's additional business for them. That's good, they will likely encourage you to return often in the future and hopefully, but not require you, to buy future vehicles there.
If CarMax has a Toyota franchise, like MD, then yes they can see any Toyota model. The Warranty's on all new Toyotas and Certified Toyotas are national and go with the vehicle no matter where you live.
Costco talks a good story but in my experience they are little more than a source of leads, for which they get paid a fee ( by someone ). In my experience here their price is the normal best price most people can obtain on their own. It's just a way to keep hasslin' to a minimum. Often CarMax is cheaper.
Got our CR magazine this week and saw a meaningless depreciation and cost number for the HH. Someone sent mail to CR and it quickly announced a correction.
The CR article quoted yet another "Environmental" group (not Sierra Club) claiming Hybrid is a "hype". CR did not take this position, thank goodness! But CR then went on to say that there are other choices such as buying a SUV that gets 17-MPG versus one that gets 14-MPG instead of buying a Hybrid SUV.
Ouch! I still do not see this logic. So a SUV that is ULEV or LEV or worse getting 17-mpg is a better choice than considering a Hybrid SUV? Or may be CR is saying for a specific price range, get the one with the better mileage? Must be the latter.
Ford was complaining about Toyota's HH hogging the battery market, remember?
The Escapes sales are slowing compared to the HH sales. HH sales went from ~2200 in January to ~2600 in February. We test-drove the Escape, one is paying *only* for the hybrid technology, there is nothing interesting about the car. It is smaller, under-powered, nothing new in safety or capability.
The HH on the other hand, even when ignoring the hybrid technology, still has the VDIM, the room, the excellent ride and handling, all the little extras that count.
I still don't get domestic's approach to car design. They seem to always just under-deliver and then make that up with price cutting and deals. If they would just start to over-deliver, they may yet catch up to Toyota.
Why when you stop at a red light early in the morning when it is around 15 degrees and the engine Monitor show everything is shut down, but steam is still coming out of the tailpipe like the engine is running?
Engine actually does run longer in very cold weather even when the monitor shows everything is shut down, this is normal.
The engine keeps the catalytic converter hot for emission control, it has to provide warmth if cabin needs warm air. It may (not sure, just wild guess) also run to keep oil warm???
I was strolling through ebay and typed in a search for "highlander hybrid" and came across one listing in the "networking" catagory. Curious, I clicked on it to see a prius/HH usb hub being sold by a toyota dealer. In the decription it said something about using this to filter out mobile phone noise. none of it made sense.
so does the HH have a USB port and if so, what's it used for?
Okay, just sent Consumer Reports a comment about mpg and told them about this Forum and how almost all of us get better mileage than their 22. Also told them we did change our driving technques and that was okay - this was new technology etc. and we were maximizing the things the vehicle could do.
I'll see how long before or if a human responds. Probably get a form e-mail back telling me they got it. Also told them we were long time CR subscribers (I think we started when my husband and I got together in the late 70's!)and really did use them before making major purchases. My husband always consults them before major car purchases. He reads the April issue like some folks read their Bible.
They do have an effect on the market - we were in the local wine store Saturday and the owner is a friend. He is trying to replace an aging Volvo and he had expressed interest in my HH when I bought it. He said he had just seen Consumer Reports and that the 22 mpg was too low for him. Even when I told him I got better mileage than that he acted like CR was the gospel and if they said it, that was it.
I have also talked to folks who found the Prius too small and couldn't afford the HH. Or any luxury vehicle. Husband was talking this past week to local luxury car dealership (Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Jaguar, etc.) and they said more than half of that stuff is leased. Made me wonder if any HHs were on lease or only sold outright.
Anyway, will report back when/if I hear from Consumer Reports.
CR does have great influence on its many readers, it can do a lot to clear up the driving techniques and distorted ROI views.
The best thing that can happen is the store owner in your post goes ahead and buys a Ford or Mercury hybrid SUV because he needs one. The worst thing that can happen is he compares the CR reported HH mileage of 22-mpg against the Explorer or Navigator EPA mileage and decide to buy the Explorer or the Navigator using price-premium vs gas cost ROI comparison.
SOME DATA FACT LINKS to TOYOTA Technical service sheets outlining modifications or procedures applying to the 2006 Highlander Hybrid or 2006 Highlander. This data may answer some of the questions as posted in the forum and provide a direction for fitting the HH to having features not installed or accessible form the DEALER. Information as to 12V Battery , ICE learing ,Blue tooth Cell Phone , Entertainment System - Diagnostic Guide , Compass Calibration Procedure ,Eng OIL , Front Break Squeal for early VIN HH, Front Door Weatherstrip Comes Loose..................
GM commissioned a driving test and the result is in a little table embedded in the following article. It is very interesting how the HH did in this 500-mile test drive.
There are those who tout the Vue Greenline and those who think it is not even a hybrid because it is not a "Full-Hybrid" like the HH.
In my view, GM is to be commended for putting together something like the Vue so quickly. So it is not difficult as GM had once claimed, it can get good mileage as GM had once denied and it can be done cheaply too unlike what GM once claimed. Because of Toyota, suddenly GM is eating its own words by its own hands. Good.
For the HH, the test is a good endorsement. A car that tows 3500-lbs, full-hybrid, weighs 500-lbs more than the Vue, has more safety features, more room, runs like a V8, still *BEATS* the smaller Vue in gas mileage in GM's own test. Very nice.....
*BEATS* the smaller Vue in gas mileage in GM's own test. Very nice
If the the VUE hybrid gets 29.7 in real driving. The HH will Not beat it. the average is more like 25 MPG for the HH. Then add the $12,000 premium to the HH. The HH is only slightly bigger with a space barely big enough in the back for very small children. Same wheelbase, same towing 3500#, more cargo space in the VUE not taken up with useless seats. I don't think the HH can compete. Anyone willing to spend 40 grand on the HH will get a luxury SUV like the MDX or RX330. Or if they want a REAL SUV they will buy the new Tahoe. It is selling by a very large margin over any of the wannabe SUVs. Check the Tahoe out. You will want to trade in that HH.
Comments
Owners like discussion1 live with their vehicles daily and post here frequently with reallife experiences and strategies. I tend to give more weight to these reports than to a tester in a 400 mi jaunt, who btw probably doesnt know how to best utilize the features of the HSD system. True such a writer is supposed to be impartial and represent a 'typical' driver ( all use this phrase ) but what that phrase means is that they have chosen not to drive in the most efficient manner - if they even understand how.
IMO such an article is one view point only of an inexperienced driver.
Vehicles on the road? The Rh was launched in April and the HH in June. Big initial interest but the price is a deterrent for most Toyota budgets. Sales though according to Toyota are consistent in the 2000 / month range. But there are 1700 stores in the US/Canada so that means about 1 per store per month. Some smaller stores may only sell one a quarter.
Deals? In CA where they were hottest they are selling at invoice because some of the mega stores have as many as 20-50 unsold.
I only have seen one other HH here in Tallahassee and apparently the owner lives in the neighborhood adjacent to mine - it's exactly the same - a gold Limited. I keep thinking we should meet or something! We probably live less than a mile apart.
I was in Nashville, TN last weekend (where I bought my HH) and two doors down from my daughter's house was a new silver HH Ltd that hadn't been there the month before. Apparently she had gotten a cash settlement in a divorce and at a lunch with my daughter and friends said she needed a new car with two kids and a huge dog and didn't like SUVs and mini-vans etc. but needed a bigger vehicle. Someone mentioned the HH and she said she had thought about it but didn't know anyone that owned one. My daughter said something about my having one and loving it and she could call me. I never got the call but apparently knowing that someone had bought it and loved it was enough to convince her to buy the vehicle.
But you don't see that many hybrids on the road. I've seen one Ford Escape hybrid here in town, an Insight every now and then and a lot more Prius - of course, they've been around longer. There was an article in our local paper a few months back about four families on one street here in town and they each had purchased a Prius. Happy campers.
mmreid
So, I guess my family has embrassed this technology wholeheartily!
I don't know about the cooling problem - never heard of it. And I use regular gas.
Jim
How big a deal is it to fix?
Thanks.
Did he/she hear it from Toyota tech-bulletin? from other shops that worked on HH? Did he actually work on HH that had/have such problems? How does he/she know about this?
It will be important for owners here to know if there is a real problem so we are prepared.
Thanks.
Thanks to you all for responding to my queries.
Now, let this potential buyer carry the discussion further: what does the fact that there are so few HHs on the road imply for availability and quality of service? Every Toyota dealer has, I gather, trained some mechanics in the technology (my local dealer here in this exurb 60 miles south of Chicago says theirs are "Master Mechanics," apparently the highest level of training/skill. He also says that of the numerous HHs he's sold, none of them is to people living around here, and that his Masters haven't done anything but oil changes and other routine maintenance.). But if there are so few customers for them that they don't get any experience, how comfortable can an owner be that, should serious repairs be required, they're going to be done by somebody who knows what they're doing?
It can be rough trying to get something fixed properly after it was misrepaired the first time.
And now for something completely different: Jim Slate, what is the red-gold-and blue symbol after your name in #2558? It looks like water in front of a gold pineapple or moneybag. Is it a flag? From where?
Onward & Upward,
Downtheh (my nickname)
The X3 has good road feel, very quick and precise steering response but just a tad light compared to our HH. I have to pay a bit more attention to compensating for the lightness. Its slower engine torque response also requires more management of speed entering and exiting curves. As a result, it is slightly busier and more tiring driving the X3 on a long twisty mountainous highway.
The HH also has good road feel (thanks to our new SUV tires, not the lousy original), almost as quick steering response with excellent steering weight. The weighty feel compensates easily for the slightly slower steering response. The instant torque makes speed management simple so I can focus on steering through the curves with ease. This makes driving fun and my wife calls that "sweet"
Where X3 beats our HH is in torque steer. X3 has none but the HH has some given the right circumstance.
Not sure why Toyota put out a Toyota that can match a luxury-class X3
Although there may not be that many on the road, for the most part, they are a 'standard' Highlander with a bit (expensive and rather heavy bit) of extra stuff. I never go to the dealer for service, preferring an independent repair shop whenever possible. When I purchased this vehicle, I checked with them, and they said that they could work on it, and even had sent a couple of mechanics to school to learn about them. On a related note, my wife used to have a Volvo 850 that needed some work done that required the dash to be removed. The dealer that sold it did the work, and they had to call Sweden and talk to the factory to figure out how to remove it. So, I guess I'm saying that the dealers don't necessarily have all the info needed to repair them, but resources are probably available to help them or indepent repair shops.
I think you don't see too many of them because thay are so dang expensive!
As Nike says, Just Do It!
Jim
Good point about service experience. Hopefully, the on-board service computer can help with diagnosis. From friends who own Prius, they have had no problems so far with normal mechanical repairs. Their gripes have been diagnosis of software glitches. THe big one last year was about Prius suddenly losing power. A colleague said his dealership did nothing meaningful until he called Toyota. Strange for a dealership to not want to contact Toyota. Luckily, his Prius never lost power on the road, he was just trying to find out if an upgrade was due.
Then again, if the car is truly reliable, it should make all the mechanics doze off in the service bay waiting for work
The X3 3.0i got 15 mixed, our HH got 24 mixed.
We were not into speed or anything unsafe, just enjoying how the cars took all the curves and steep terrain. The X3 and the HH are really built for driving. The X3 interior oozes luxury and refined design while the HH is of course, solidly practical Toyota.
As for service, so far I've taken it in to have the cargo net installed and for the 5,000 mile tune-up. Other than having them forget to turn off the 5,000 mile warning (I did it myself) light about needing a tune-up, they seemed to know what they were doing. . .or I can only hope. I've had zero problems mechanically but of course I've only got 6,6000 miles on the odometer. I did ask the mechanics how much they knew about the vehicle and they claimed they'd been trained to work on them. I also used Toyota's own body shop to fix the scratch where I scraped up against a tree (sigh) and they did a nice job matching paint etc.
All that said, I would buy this vehicle again in a heartbeat. I took a risk since I bought it without much research or thought - saw it on the lot, loved the way it handled, loved the fact it was a hybrid and paid cash. Scary! A big investment and I'm usually not that imprudent. I have a husband who researches something like a video camera for 6 months before he takes the plunge. . .and we bought this car very quickly. He drives a 528i BMW and is looking at a Z4 (I'm trying to convince him to wait for a sports car hybrid) but admits my HH is a better car for long car trips - the gas savings alone and low mileage has him choosing it when we do that 1,000 round mile trip to and from Nashville to see the grandkids.
By the way, has anyone bought one of those inserts that fit when the back seats are folded down? We have a 58 lb dog and I've wondered if one of those makes sense to keep puppy feet off the leather seats. . .?? It's a standard Highlander insert that was in a booklet I found at the dealership while waiting for my tune-up.
mmreid
339-hp (253 KW) with torque through the roof, 0-60 in 5 seconds,
two-Stage torque in CVT to maximize efficiency at cruising speed,
smaller battery pack, controller and a whole mess of new stuff,
and still get 28-MPG???
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/02/toyota_announce.html
GM has been talking about the 2-stage too and I thought domestic is about to catch up or leap-frog Toyota.
Wow, if this is the new engine for the new larger (Sienna-like) 2007 HH, I may give in to my wife's desire and get it. Add HyMotion's Plug-in technology and we may never again have to buy another car.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/02/january_2006_us.html
Jim
He walked me to the showroom model, opened the glove box, took out the manual, and showed me the back cover where it said: use regular.
It did go on to say something to the effect that you'll get better performance if you use premium.
Well, that's great news as it officially eliminates the dilemma I was experiencing between saving money with the better mpg of the hybrid and losing money to the higher cost of premium.
So onward & upward.
I'm sorry, Ms. Reid (is it Mary Margaret, by any chance?), that you had to go 500 miles to find a HH. This dealer here has four or five of em; I walked home from there.
We shall overcome,
Downthehighway
As for having to go 500 miles to get my HH, I was in Nashville, TN, baby sitting my adorable granddaughers and my ex-husband, of all people, suggested that they had hybrids at the local Toyota dealership. To my great surprise (considering how much he'd lied to me when we'd been actually married) there were cars on the lot.
I don't know if anyone else has CNN on their radar, but tonght they had a link to the top 10 cars for this year from Consumer Reports and the Hylander Hybrid was one of the cars listed! As a Consumer Reports regular subscriber I was kinda tickled to see that! We've been regular subscribers to the magazine for years plus starting getting the on-line service a few years ago.
mmreid
The only maintenance needed is to the ICE segment which is oil/filers, timing belt at ~ 60K and the normal hoses and gaskets if you keep it well over 100K. On the 4c's there is no timing belt it's a chain so that is gone.
On the Prius and TCH only oil/filters/tires ... and the brakes will last you probably 3 times as long if you use the HSD system to it's best advantages.
There has to be a 'hybrid-certified' Master tech in each shop that sells a hybrid... but he's like the Maytag man.
As you well know the HH is really a 400h incognito. You were actually comparing a BMW to a Lexus.. especially since you own the Ltd version.
Similarly the Avalon always has been the LS body on the ES engine/drive train... with a few modifications.
Put a Camry next to an ES330 and it's amazing that the body panels are exactly the same, save a few curves and tweaks.
That's cool and makes me feel good, but it ain't gonna help my price negotiating any.
(The Subaru Forester, which I've also been considering, is Top SUV Under $30K. I can't go wrong.)
We finally went with the HH because of the SULEV rating, the VDIM, the cargo room and a gamble at getting good mileage. So far, so good. Not many 2-ton cars can get 28-30 MPG. I was real skeptical paying so much for the HH but it has really grown on me.
Good luck with your Forester.
Anyone have any opinions on an extended warrenty? I have never been a fan of them, but wondering if all the extra suff with the Hybrid would make it worth it. But it seems all the hybrid releated components have the toyota 8 years/100,000 mile warranty already. Plus its a Toyota what could go wrong?
By the way, seems like a great group of people here. Great reading all the info, made buying this car much easier. Was going to wait for the V6 RAV4, but wife and I really liked this one better, plus more heafty so better for hauling around the grandkids.
Bob
Sorry to be so fuzzy. Bought the vehicle in June and can't remember all the details now. But a very happy camper.
I think the main issue I've heard from other people is not that they don't want one but the price is ultimately the issue. Which is kind of sad. I am hoping down the road that more folks can afford "green" vehicles and hybrids or alternative fuel cars and not only those of us who can pay the premium for the new technology. I'd really like to see more hybrids and/or alternative fuel cars on the road. . . I'm quite interested in this new plug-in technology and if it becomes even remotely affordable I'd love to check it out, as long as it didn't void my Toyota warranty. As someone who does mostly local driving and not many miles per day, it sure sounds like something that I would benefit from in a big way. If more information becomes available, please post it here!
mmreid
It may make sense to ask the mechanic instead of forum members because the mechanic claimed such problems exist.
Did he/she hear it from Toyota tech-bulletin? from other shops that worked on HH? Did he actually work on HH that had/have such problems? How does he/she know about this?
+++
OK, Discussion1, I did talk to the guy today. He's far from the stereotypical mechanic: he's multidimensional, intelligent, patient, articulate. Works only on Saabs and Volvos in a Chicago suburb. His shop is immaculate; the floor is WHITE.
None of which kept him and me from being on different pages in our previous discussion: he was talking about Priuses (Prii?). He said he new of no established problems in the HH, and that "it's one of the very best choices you could make." Toyota, he said, is simply the best.
Well, then, spurred on by you and
No judgement passed on the mechanic either, I am sure he is a qualified good guy. Thanks again.
"It may make sense to ask the mechanic instead of forum members because the mechanic claimed such problems exist.
Did he/she hear it from Toyota tech-bulletin? from other shops that worked on HH? Did he actually work on HH that had/have such problems? How does he/she know about this?"
+++
D1, I did talk to the guy today. He's far from the stereotypical mechanic: he's multidimensional, intelligent, patient, articulate. Works only on Saabs and Volvos in a Chicago suburb. His shop is immaculate; the floor is WHITE.
None of which kept him and me from being on different pages in our previous discussion: he was talking about Priuses (Prii?). He said he knew of no established problems in the HH, and that "it's one of the very best choices you could make." Toyota, he said, is simply the best.
Well, then, spurred on by you and wwest (#2557: "Have absolutely no direct information but "heating problems" could mean premature failure of the electric coolant pump motor, or any one of a number of "small" failures unique to the RXh and HH.") I asked this guy if he knew about electric coolant pump motors going bad. He said any time you get something electrical you run the risk of it failing, and that if a coolant motor did so in this case, it could take out a number of things, including the radiator. But again, he did not know of this to be a generic HH problem.
So, I consider this good news. It reinforces my leanings to get an HH.
And then I went to my own mechanic. This is an independent and a good man; he's one of the main reasons my currently-held Land Cruiser is going on 15 years old.
He's recently taken a safety course on hybrids, taught by a Snap-On guy for CarQuest. He learned some really interesting things; they spoke mostly about Prii (Priuses?) and Hondas and such; he said he didn't remember any discussion per se of HHs. So none of the following relates directly to HHs.
One thing they anticipate is that hybrids will be a high-maintenance vehicle: because the ICE doesn't get warmed up like a regular motor, it is likely to carbon up, and thus need to be cleaned out with some regularity. Unless, of course, it gets driven enough at high speeds to clean out the carbon.
The batteries for these things are enormously powerful, far beyond conventional ones. And they can't be allowed to drain, making the car not the choice for snowbirds and anyone else who stores their car for long periods. They're shipped here in dry ice, and dealers can't stock them.
The vehicles can be accidently started by the transponder in the key fob remote, even if it's only hanging in the door lock. This can be very dangerous for whoever is working on them at the time. So the recommendation is to have the transponder at least nine feet away from the vehicle when it's being worked on. Also, shops should keep a 14-foot fiberglass pole handy, so that if a hybrid mechanic does start getting electrocuted, they can use it to rescue him.
One of the first things emergency workers and mechanics and towers do for some wrecked or disabled vehicles they arrive at is cut the battery cables, to prevent fires. But so powerful are the hybrid batteries that to do that with a hybrid battery could kill the cutter.
And now you know ... the REST of the story.
Onward & Upward,
Downthehighway
Do you know if he is referring to carbon build-up around the spark plug tip?
Funny you mentioned this because my in-law is a mechanic (retired USN) and was just talking about this regarding our HH.
He said lots of short trips or low speed operation will not generate enough heat to prevent carbon deposits. He did say a modern auto engine like that in the HH has to reach above 850-F for self-cleaning to occur. Just driving the car (in ICE mode) above 30-MPH should generate enough heat to start burning off the deposits. So a run of 65-MPH (in ICE mode) for some miles should burn off deposits.
Interesting stuff because I learn just enough to operate these machines, not enough to fix them
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/traction2006.htm
It was a enjoyable read.
1) If you buy a HH at Dealer A, but wish to have it serviced at Dealer B, will you in fact get service at B of equal quality to A, even tho you didn't buy it at B?
2) Can you buy a new HH from Carmax? How likely a bet are they? Do they do warantee service? Has anybody done it successfully?
3) Is it true that CostCo can get car quotes, or has some kind of clout re buying cars? How well does that work?
4) Who is the best dealer to buy from in the south suburbs, and further south, of Chicago?
Thank you,
DTH
Not qualify to answer the other questions.
The only problem I had the first time was while waiting for service to finish up I wandered into the sales area to ask a question about the NAV screen from a salesperson and one of the guys was super rude to me because I hadn't bought the car from them. I told him I'd have bought the car from them but when I called they had a waiting list of 18 ahead of me and the dealer in Nashville had the car on the lot. Another salesman promptly came over and went out to my car with me and explained some of the NAV features. He did apologize for the other guy.
mmreid
Any service department will be happy to service your vehicle it's additional business for them. That's good, they will likely encourage you to return often in the future and hopefully, but not require you, to buy future vehicles there.
If CarMax has a Toyota franchise, like MD, then yes they can see any Toyota model. The Warranty's on all new Toyotas and Certified Toyotas are national and go with the vehicle no matter where you live.
Costco talks a good story but in my experience they are little more than a source of leads, for which they get paid a fee ( by someone ). In my experience here their price is the normal best price most people can obtain on their own. It's just a way to keep hasslin' to a minimum. Often CarMax is cheaper.
CR issues corrections of their Hybrid cost calculations. Revised down.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/14045918.htm
The CR article quoted yet another "Environmental" group (not Sierra Club) claiming Hybrid is a "hype". CR did not take this position, thank goodness! But CR then went on to say that there are other choices such as buying a SUV that gets 17-MPG versus one that gets 14-MPG instead of buying a Hybrid SUV.
Ouch! I still do not see this logic. So a SUV that is ULEV or LEV or worse getting 17-mpg is a better choice than considering a Hybrid SUV? Or may be CR is saying for a specific price range, get the one with the better mileage? Must be the latter.
Ford was complaining about Toyota's HH hogging the battery market, remember?
Ford hybrid sales slow down.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060308/AUTO01/603080370/1148-
The Escapes sales are slowing compared to the HH sales. HH sales went from ~2200 in January to ~2600 in February. We test-drove the Escape, one is paying *only* for the hybrid technology, there is nothing interesting about the car. It is smaller, under-powered, nothing new in safety or capability.
The HH on the other hand, even when ignoring the hybrid technology, still has the VDIM, the room, the excellent ride and handling, all the little extras that count.
I still don't get domestic's approach to car design. They seem to always just under-deliver and then make that up with price cutting and deals. If they would just start to over-deliver, they may yet catch up to Toyota.
The engine keeps the catalytic converter hot for emission control, it has to provide warmth if cabin needs warm air. It may (not sure, just wild guess) also run to keep oil warm???
so does the HH have a USB port and if so, what's it used for?
I'll see how long before or if a human responds. Probably get a form e-mail back telling me they got it. Also told them we were long time CR subscribers (I think we started when my husband and I got together in the late 70's!)and really did use them before making major purchases. My husband always consults them before major car purchases. He reads the April issue like some folks read their Bible.
They do have an effect on the market - we were in the local wine store Saturday and the owner is a friend. He is trying to replace an aging Volvo and he had expressed interest in my HH when I bought it. He said he had just seen Consumer Reports and that the 22 mpg was too low for him. Even when I told him I got better mileage than that he acted like CR was the gospel and if they said it, that was it.
I have also talked to folks who found the Prius too small and couldn't afford the HH. Or any luxury vehicle. Husband was talking this past week to local luxury car dealership (Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Jaguar, etc.) and they said more than half of that stuff is leased. Made me wonder if any HHs were on lease or only sold outright.
Anyway, will report back when/if I hear from Consumer Reports.
mmreid
CR does have great influence on its many readers, it can do a lot to clear up the driving techniques and distorted ROI views.
The best thing that can happen is the store owner in your post goes ahead and buys a Ford or Mercury hybrid SUV because he needs one. The worst thing that can happen is he compares the CR reported HH mileage of 22-mpg against the Explorer or Navigator EPA mileage and decide to buy the Explorer or the Navigator using price-premium vs gas cost ROI comparison.
This data may answer some of the questions as posted in the forum and provide a direction for fitting the HH to having features not installed or accessible form the DEALER.
Information as to 12V Battery , ICE learing ,Blue tooth Cell Phone , Entertainment System - Diagnostic Guide , Compass Calibration Procedure ,Eng OIL , Front Break Squeal for early VIN HH, Front Door Weatherstrip Comes Loose..................
Title: Battery - HV and or Auxiliary Battery Maintenance
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1114758000000_1129791600000_PD016-05/
Title: Cell Phone - Bluetooth(R) Compatibility and or Functions
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1116572400000_1117695600000_EL001R-05/
Title: Entertainment System - Diagnostic Guide
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1117177200000_1118214000000_EL010-05/
Title: Engine Controls - ISC Learning Procedure
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1118041200000_1129791600000_EG026-05/
Title: Instruments - Compass Calibration Procedure
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1119250800000_1129791600000_PD037-05/
Title: Tire Pressure Monitor - Initialization Procedure
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1120719600000_1129791600000_PD039-05/
Title: Brakes - Front Brake Squealing Noise
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1129359600000_1130745600000_BR004R-05/
Title: Brakes - High Pitched Squeal on Light Application
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1121410800000_1129791600000_BR004-05/
Title: Tire Monitor System - Mounting and or Dismounting Tires
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1127718000000_1128582000000_PG010-05/
Title: Engine Controls - MIL ON and or DTC's P0171 and or P0174 and or P2195 and or P2197
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1132128000000_1133769600000_EG052-05/
Title: Audio System - CD Player Skip Verification
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1133164800000_1135065600000_SS003-05/
Title: Body - Front Door Weatherstrip Comes Loose
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1135065600000_1136448000000_BO016-05/
Title: Engine - ILSAC GF-4 Engine Oil Standard
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1137139200000_1138003200000_EG001R-06/
http://www.hybridcars.com/saturn-vue-hybrid.html
There are those who tout the Vue Greenline and those who think it is not even a hybrid because it is not a "Full-Hybrid" like the HH.
In my view, GM is to be commended for putting together something like the Vue so quickly. So it is not difficult as GM had once claimed, it can get good mileage as GM had once denied and it can be done cheaply too unlike what GM once claimed. Because of Toyota, suddenly GM is eating its own words by its own hands. Good.
For the HH, the test is a good endorsement. A car that tows 3500-lbs, full-hybrid, weighs 500-lbs more than the Vue, has more safety features, more room, runs like a V8, still *BEATS*
If the the VUE hybrid gets 29.7 in real driving. The HH will Not beat it. the average is more like 25 MPG for the HH. Then add the $12,000 premium to the HH. The HH is only slightly bigger with a space barely big enough in the back for very small children. Same wheelbase, same towing 3500#, more cargo space in the VUE not taken up with useless seats. I don't think the HH can compete. Anyone willing to spend 40 grand on the HH will get a luxury SUV like the MDX or RX330. Or if they want a REAL SUV they will buy the new Tahoe. It is selling by a very large margin over any of the wannabe SUVs. Check the Tahoe out. You will want to trade in that HH.