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BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4

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Comments

  • clpurnellclpurnell Member Posts: 1,083
    I'm sorry you dealt with a dealer that was smoking something on the FX price. Good shoppers are getting them 500-700 over invoice. I paid 40.6k For my loaded FX35 RWD (I live in houston no need for awd) with the Tech package (that included the dvd video system they took that out and made it a seperate item for 04). an awd should be about 1k more. There is a dealer in boston selling new 03 FX45's with tech for 42.5k.

    Good luck with the beamer post impressions once you get it.
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Perhaps the FX should be out of the mix. As I've said before, any vehicle that is not offered in a manual transmission is clearly identified by the automaker as marketed to a specific audience and should be so identified by the consumer. This obviously includes most midsized and large SUVs. For whatever reason, however, BMW chose the X3 to be mated to a manny (the obligatory "Autobahn" image?). Hence, they are worthy of comparison. I plan to test both. I will not even consider the FX.

    Maybe there's a board devoted entirely to manual transmissions.

    Speaking of the image, have you noticed how many car ads show some enthusiast ripping through the gears in the manny? About 50% by my unoffical count. Suggests that people apparently are very much attracted by the image.

    Zman
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    I think the main detractor for the FX is the ride. The roads in my area are so rough that I dont think I could drive the FX with that firm of a suspension for very long. The overall FX experience is more sport and less luxury in that department. Moving a few grand around that price range would not have made a difference because other issues still exist that detract from the overall value. It would have been a nice offer though.
    At that price range, the heated steering wheel and the overall blend ride of sport and comfort won. I was actually closer to buying the Murano because of its interior layout and more storage.
    Everyone has been concentrating on the exterior looks and interior layouts/amenities of these vehicles. The one point that is overlooked is that with the BMW brand in general, the actual components and engineering that goes into the vehcile itself is much higher than most vehicles out there. The items I can repair myself are easy to locate, diagnose and repair myself. How easy is it to change filters, bulbs, oil, coolant, brakes etc after the warranty period expires? I can guarantee that the BMW is easier to do those things to. That is a value in a vehicle that cannot be touched or realized in a test drive.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Speaking of the image, have you noticed how many car ads show some enthusiast ripping through the gears in the manny? About 50% by my unoffical count. Suggests that people apparently are very much attracted by the image.

    zman- They may well be attracted to the image but when it comes to buy, they overwhelmingly go for the auto trans (90+%). Which just reinforces the image of the lazy American driver who wants as little involvement as possible with the actual driving experience.

    -Frank P.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    The handling is where the BMW and FX shines. Both equipped with sport packages are .88 g for the X3 and .87 for the FX. The base FX does .81 but since we don't have base skid numbers for the base X3 lets compare apples to apples again. The XT is High .7's here it brings up the rear where the FX and X3 tie.

    clpurnell- Regarding the XT's numbers, most of the difference is attributable to the XT's smaller shoes. If one were to spend $2,000 for a plus-one upgrade and a pair of beefier anti-sway bars, I'm willing to bet that the XT's handling numbers would be right up there in the mid to upper .8 range. And you'd still be $10,000 ahead! Of course you still won't have a heated steering wheel or 4-way electric lumbar support :-)

    Anybody else remember when the passenger side-view mirror was only available on upper-end cars?

    -Frank P.
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Frank, not only that, but the more "well appointed" cars are stripped of the MT--in the Subaru stable this means the Forester XT premium, the Outbacks with stronger engines. As for any American make or Infiniti, Volvo, Acura, Toyota, Lexus (you name it)...need I say more? It's as if to say, those of us who love to drive and feel the road don't want to do it unless we're sitting on cheesy cloth seats in a cramped cabin or buzzing a 4 cylinder engine to 4500 RPM.

    All of which leads me to my real question: has anyone done a "fly and buy" deal to Europe? You know, fly over, buy for example the VW Passat W8 Wagon in the 6-speed and ship it back. I hear MT's are much easier to get across the pond. Plusses and minuses? Is there a separate board for this?

    Zman
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Of course you still won't have a heated steering wheel

    That the presence or absence of this 'feature' might actually be the deciding difference between buying or not buying a particular car says something (and it's not good) about just how pampered we have to be these days.

    For those really cold days, how about a pair of gloves, for pete's sake?

    The KISS principle seems to have become a candidate for the endangered species list. <sigh>
  • akasrpakasrp Member Posts: 170
    of a heated steering wheel!
    Love the idea that it could run amok and leave the driver unable to steer, that is. Hot molten noxious plastic dripping onto his pants. New meaning to 'unsafe at any speed', nevermind the legendary cry &#147;I&#146;ve got blisters on my fingers&#148;.
    Is there any end to the list of goofy add-ons that continue to put stars in our eyes?

    s(anctimonius)rp
  • cmdpmcmdpm Member Posts: 9
    this comparo may make sense to some but not to others...
    the FXT 5M is very quick, feels great mechanically, has a low profile look, 4wd and solid reliability.BUT, it feels smaller inside than the FX35/45 (i have 3 young boys), interior looks/feels lower budget, and i just couldnt get past how ugly/awkward its exterior is, IMHO.
    the FX35/45 is nicer inside with a little more room, has avant garde styling, awesome grip, great handling,awd option,and solid reliability.BUT its a heavier suv so the v6 has to work harder to get about 4300 lbs moving. this is why i chose an '03 FX45 (with lease $$$ only about $100 more a month than the FXT 5M).
    the BMW X3 had not come out when i was looking but i drove an '04 BMW 530i 6M.it is nice in many ways but it has become less of a drivers car as the current technology seems to come between the car and the driver. also,i could not justify the extra $$$.

    have fun comparing!!!
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    It's 6 degrees Far. outside where I live right now. Instead of alternating holding my hands in front of the vents, I can grasp the wheel with both hands, sans gloves, properly... And at 40K a car should have a simple luxury like a piece of wire that gently heats the steering wheel. That's what a premium car is about. (BMW's steering wheel, when on,is synched with your seats as well. Seats off, highest heat. Seat settings 1,2 or 3, wheel at 1,2 or 3)
    BTW, I haven't heard of any butt burns from heated leather seats yet...
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    The KISS principle seems to have become a candidate for the endangered species list.

    That sounds nostalgic but if KISS were that important then old Henry wouldn't have moved beyond the Model A! Surely, the conveyor belt assembly line used to produce the "T" was not as simple as making them the old fashioned way. And those old acetylene headlights were far simpler than those newfangled electric ones with chemical batteries, cables and alternators! ;-)

    tidester, host
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    interior looks/feels lower budget,

    Not surprising. My budget was delighted to apply the $10,000 saved to other purposes.

    and i just couldnt get past how ugly/awkward its exterior is, IMHO. the FX35/45...has avant garde styling,

    Is that what it's called? As they say, eye of the beholder. I think the Infiniti FX is downright ugly. If heavy-looking high-bodyside small-window proportions (a la Hummer) are the coming thing, count me out. Give me low fender heights and tall windows anyday. Unobstructed outward visibility counts for far more to me than debatable style.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    You have to be putting me on. Are you seriously putting brighter headlamps in the same category with a twinky feature like heated steering wheels?
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    That wasn't Steve - it was me!

    The point was that "simple" is relative and I was just having fun! Hope you enjoyed it. :-)

    tidester, host
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I believe in KISS too - Keep It Simple, Steve. I'm afraid some other words fit the acronym though....

    Steve, Host
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    We simply have different ideas about what a car should be. It was 10 degrees F here a few weeks ago. I wore a pair of thin gloves and never gave an instant's thought that doing so was somehow a disadvantage, or that my XT was somehow deficient. I wouldn't pay ten bucks extra to get a heated steering wheel. My XT has heated seats, and I've never even turned them on. My wife, who seems to need her world about ten degrees hotter than I, occasonally uses them, so at least they won't go entirely to waste.

    I could comfortably buy any car under $250K without taking a loan. I bought a $24K Forester XT because it meets my needs, and then some, and leaves the unspent dough for other, higher priorities.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Sorry JB, I like that idea. I drove a BMW with that feature. It's as valid as heated seats, and heated outside mirrors IMO. I'd love to see Subaru include this feature in their All-Weather Package.

    Bob
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    The point was that "simple" is relative and I was just having fun!

    No question about that. There have been zillions of bona fide advances in automotive design. Disk brakes. Radial tires. Independent suspensions. Even little things like delay wipers and rear defoggers. Heated steering wheels? Egad.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    while the idea may seem silly at first, once you've experienced a heated steering wheel on a cold morning, it's really a very enjoyable experience. :)

    BTW, I've said the same about electric blankets, but have since come around.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    why don't you put on a yuppie face (if that's humanly possible) and venture down to a BMW dealer, and take one out for a test drive that has a heated steering wheel. You might actually enjoy it. :)

    I sometimes like to drive premium brand cars, just to see what they're up to. Usually a lot of the good stuff from BMW, et al, eventually trickles down into other more mainstream brands; not that a Subie is mainstream, but you get the idea.

    As a matter of fact, now that the X-3 is now a part of this discussion, it gives you a legit excuse to do so. And... knowing you, your report back would be most entertaining. :)

    Bob
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I could comfortably buy any car under $250K without taking a loan"

    And your point is?

    Friends of the family could afford to buy a $1M dollar car for cash, should they chose. They don't drive Subaru's, they don't even drive 745s, they drive Rolls and high-end Merceders. So what?

    Are you showing us how frugal you are? Or are you trying to compare the driving characteristics of these vehicles?
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    venture down to a BMW dealer, and take one out for a test drive

    I drove the 325ix wagon extensively before buying the XT. Loved the inline 6. Didn't like the price tag.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Bob- Not going to argue that a heated steering wheel wouldn't be nice on a frosty morning (of course that begs the question why that $40k car isn't parked in a heated garage?) but I do take issue with your lumping heated seats and steering wheels in with heated outside mirrors. The first two are convenience features while the 3rd is definitely a safety feature.

    -Frank P.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I mean to go down and check out the "techie" features, not to seriously shop one.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I only lumped them together because that's the way Subaru packages them, as part of their AWP. It just seemed to make sense to add the heated steering wheel (if they ever decide to offer it) to the mix.

    Frankly, I was a little surprised that feature didn't make it into the new-generation Legacy/Outback.

    Bob
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    ballistic: Heated steering wheels? Egad.

    rsholland: once you've experienced a heated steering wheel on a cold morning, it's really a very enjoyable experience. :)

    BTW, whatever happened to gloves? :-0

    And then there are heated seats ...!

    tidester, host
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It's really very nice.

    To be honest, I don't like driving with gloves, even driving gloves. I prefer the feel of my hands on the steering wheel, and I also prefer bare hands for operating various switches and controls.

    Bob
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    The cold steering wheel doesn't bother me (I do wear gloves!) but it's those sizzling steering wheels in the summer that warrant the attention of the engineers - IMHO!

    tidester, host
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    you can turn off the heated steering wheel. Or, are you talking about the steering wheel material that gets hot?

    Bob
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Deep down my wife might love to have the worthless (my word) heated steering wheel, she just said (and I quote) "No way in hell." Gotta admire that old New England thriftiness. Not only that, she insists on a manny tranny. BTW, it's 2 below here right now.

    Zman
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    They have air conditioned (venilated) seats now, so air conditioned steering wheels shouldn't be far behind. ;-)

    DaveM
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    I've seen heated gloves.

    DaveM
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the value we place on gadgets, or not...

    A heated steering wheel I like, and have said so. As for memory seats, OnStar, satellite radio, MP3 players, auto climate control, etc.; to me, those are truly worthless.

    Bob
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    rsholland: you can turn off the heated steering wheel.

    I was talking about steering wheels that get up to 140°F due to solar heating.

    dcm: I'm looking forward to the steering wheel refrigerators! Will BMW provide them before Infiniti?

    tidester, host
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Got stuck in a loop there and didn't realize my partially composed post got posted. I don't know if I could handle a bunch of battery packs for the heated gloves, socks and whatever else is out there :-)

    If it's half as nice as the bun warmers in my wagon, I'm sure I'd like a heated steering wheel.

    Steve, Host
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I mean to go down and check out the "techie" features, not to seriously shop one.

    A lot of higher-end cars are coming with stuff I wouldn't want if they paid me to take it. BMW's iDrive gizmo, for example. And after building some very nicely styled cars over the past two generations, their designers went completely bonkers on everything since, beginning with the latest 7.

    If I ever reach the point where I reject otherwise-worthy cars because they lack heated steering wheels, I hope a true friend puts me out of my misery.
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    Just out of curiosity, what characteristics do you think qualify the XT to be compared to the FX or X3?
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    what characteristics do you think qualify the XT to be compared to the FX or X3?

    Heck I can answer that... all three are compact SUVs with comparable interior dimensions, off-road ability and performance.

    -Frank P.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the only thing lacking from the XT is the gizmo factor and prestige image. If you can live without all the high-tech gadgets, improved refinement of interior materials, and don't need to have your ego stroked by driving a designer-label brand, the XT competes very nicely with the other two in this thread.

    It really comes down to what you value most. If you can't live without the premium image that's attached to the other brands, then the XT is not for you.

    Bob
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    The XT is classified as a wagon not an SUV. As such the resale of such a vehicle is lower. Also, the gadgets and more importantly the refinements of build quality both interior, exterior and under hood do not qualify this vehicle to cross compare. You could for that matter compare a Viper or Porsche with a Subaru in 0-60 times. Is it a fair comparison? Sure, in one category. But for overall, it is not.
    I do not drive a vehicle to have my ego stroked. I drive a vehicle because I love the way it drives on an everyday basis. I also appreciate the engineering behind how the vehicle works mechanically.
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    Sorry I forgot...The XT can only tow class 1. FX and X3 are class 2.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Mark- Actually I believe that the XT is now classified as a SUV although I fail to see how the vehicle classification could affect the resale value. I disagree with your assessment of the build quality also. The X-3 and FX certainly do have more gadgets and in some cases nicer materials, but I don't think they're put together any better.

    I drive a vehicle because I love the way it drives on an everyday basis. I also appreciate the engineering behind how the vehicle works mechanically.

    Me too! You sure you're not talking about the XT? ;-)

    -Frank P.

    P.S. The Viper doesn't exactly have a 62 cu ft cargo area now does it?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The XT isn't quite classified as an entry level luxo-anything and I think there is the difference. You could say there isn't much of a performance difference between the XT and X5 4.8. Only some luxury and amenities separate the two, more than performance.
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    The manufacturers are building more suv like cars rather than wagons now because that is what sells. The public perceives the XT to be a wagon (I do too). Therefore when you go to sell the suv, it will sell quicker and at a higher value. Most dealers in my area have a hard time selling wagonish vehicles. That XC70 of Volvo's isn't exactly moving like their XC90.

    Im not saying the assembly is better. I'm saying that the parts themselves are better. Everything from the rotors, axles, sway bars, wiring harnesses, control modules, etc will be of better quality. When you work on a BMW you can easily see the methodical assembly/disassembly process and say...that's why they did that. On most other cars you say...now why would they do that? i.e., a VW I had had no radiator drain plug. You had to remove the thermostat and break the seal to properly change the coolant. AAARRRGGGHHHH!!! So unfortunatley, we'd have to agree to disagree on build quality. :)
  • akasrpakasrp Member Posts: 170
    Best New MPV / Crossover Vehicle: Infiniti FX45
    Best New Sport Utility Vehicle: Subaru Forester 2.5 XT

    http://www.ajac.ca/

    -srp
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Mark- I'm not familiar enough with BMW components to argue whether their components are better but I'm quite certain that the vast majority of the FX's parts are straight from the Nissan parts dept.

    IRT to the resale value, I think they public's love affair with the SUV is beginning to wane, hence the increasing popularity of cross-over vehicles (of which the Forester was one of the first). In a few years it's quite possible that being perceived as a gas-guzzling roll-over prone SUV will actually hurt a vehicles resale value.

    -Frank P.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    The XT is classified as a wagon not an SUV. As such the resale of such a vehicle is lower.

    That's an interesting half-truth, but nothing more. Let's say after two years my top-of-the-line XT (price paid: $23,978) has a market value of only $16,785, having suffered 30% depreciation. Let's say the BMW X3 depreciates 'only' 20% during the same period. My loss from depreciation is $7,193. Yours is $8.000. I prefer my outcome.

    the <BMW> parts themselves are better. Everything from the rotors, axles, sway bars, wiring harnesses, control modules, etc will be of better quality <than Subaru's>.

    And unarguably far costlier to repair or replace. Dare we compare the cost to perform a valve job or bottom-end overhall or fuel-injector pump replacement on a BMW to a Subaru? Also, if the component quality of our low-class vehicles is sufficient to provide (say) 250,000-mile lifetimes (as Subarus often do), exactly what benefit does the alleged superiority of BMW's unarguably costlier component quality provide?

    When you work on a BMW you can easily see the methodical assembly/disassembly process and say...that's why they did that.

    And you seriously don't think any non-BMW owners ever have that same thought while working on theirs?

    I'm glad you like your Beamer. I'd rather increase my charitable giving than indulge myself to that extent.

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    " Let's say the BMW X3 depreciates 'only' 20% during the same period. My loss from depreciation is $7,193. Yours is $8.000. I prefer my outcome."

    Cheaper vehicle always has cheaper absolute dollar amount with depreciation. Buying a $15K vehicle if it only retains 50% of value after 3 years who cares? It only lost $7,500. Small dollar amount high percentage. Not very favorable for leasing though.
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    I'm curious about the need to have some kind of Dr. Strangelovian (tm) purity in a comparison. Of course you can compare these three cars--whether they're designated SUV or wagons or crossovers or exotics for that matter. They're vehicles with 4 wheels and an engine. Maybe it would be absurd to compare the X3 to a pair of roller skates (then maybe not, I don't know). Hey, add the Pontiac Vibe or the H2 for all I care, and see how they stack up.

    That said, if I were forced to cut one out of the mix based on "true" performance driving features, the FX is the one that would have to go.

    So, let's go back to the beginning. The XT (MT) clearly accelerates faster than the X3 (MT). The XT costs about $10,000 less than the X3. They get about the same gas mileage. The X3 weighs more; maybe then it is a safer vehicle. It has a 6-speed (which is supposed to be better than the 5-speed on the XT). Both of them are superior to the FX in this regard (duh). The X3 has more material amenities (esp. leather seats). The XT has dealers who are willing to work with you. The X3 does not.

    Zman
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