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BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Bangle will be mocked plenty when the stack of negative sales figures rolls in, but not as much as BMW for going with his trash."

    You must have the crystal ball that I lack. :) Where is Microsoft going be, and what's going to be the hottest sector in a year.?

    Heck, I know you have an opinion, but I think Bangle is going to remembered for leaving a positive mark on BMW. But we can go around the horn. You are right, sales figures will tell all, but they might not talk in the direction you are thinking.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    It takes no crystal ball to recognize a giant step...backward.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "It takes no crystal ball to recognize a giant step...backward."

    No it doesn't take a crystal ball to recognize this guy moved BMW forward. back-forward-back-forward-back-forward. NYUK, NYUK, NYUK.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Loewy was a giant. My first car was a '55 Studebaker Speedster - not quite as exquisitely pure and lovely as the '53 Starlight, but close. These designs are still beautiful today, and compared to their contemporaries (think '53 Chev) they were as if from another planet.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Microsoft will eventually become some kind of public utility.

    Hottest sector? In what, the stock market?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    kd, you looking for tips? Here's one... get a Porsche and have some fun.

    Later guys, I gotta try to get a life.

    :-)
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    But only if you're willing to pronounce it as a 2-syllable word, as its inventor pronounced his name. All others should be forbidden from owning Porsches.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Bangle's notoriety will never compare to the stunners penned by automotive design masters, such as Raymond Loewy ('53 Studebaker Starlight coupe, Avanti), Bill Mitchell (1st Buick Riviera, Sting Ray, 2nd-gen Corvair), or Virgil Exner (a decade of influential Chrysler designs), or dozens of Italians such as Bertone and Guigiaro.

    Bangle's work is utterly pedestrian by comparison.

    Again we disagree. Bill Mitchell? Virgil Exner? Surely you jest! The only thing great about Mitchell was his ego, which was as large as the fins on the '59 Eldorado, which he designed. You call that a winner? There's nothing in Exner's portfolio that I call outstanding.

    Bob
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    You're about 50 posts too late!
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    My apologies...

    Bob
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    If you don't think Loewy's '53 Stude Starlight and '63 Avanti, or Mitchell's original Buick Riviera ('62 or thereabouts), '63 Sting Ray, and '61 Pontiac Catalina, or Exner's '57 Chrysler 300C, Crown Imperial, and DeSoto Adventurer were light years ahead of any other domestic autos of their time, you're in a minority.

    If you think any of Bangle's designs will be widely revered decades later for their radically fresh, groundbreaking lines, as each of those are, the minority gets even smaller. Albrecht Goertz, gifted designer of the achingly beautiful '55 BMW 507 roadster, must be spinning in his grave.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Because you don't like the new designs doesn't make then ugly, because I do like them, doesn't make them pretty or handsome or attractive.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    If you don't think Loewy's '53 Stude Starlight and '63 Avanti, or Mitchell's original Buick Riviera ('62 or thereabouts), '63 Sting Ray, and '61 Pontiac Catalina, or Exner's '57 Chrysler 300C, Crown Imperial, and DeSoto Adventurer were light years ahead of any other domestic autos of their time, you're in a minority.

    Read my post JB. I mentioned Mitchell and Exner, not Raymond Loewy, whom I do admire.

    Yeah Mitchell had some good looking cars; he also had a lot of dogs too. The 58 Buick, Olds and Cadillac come to mind, as well as his swan song, the entire '59 GM lineup, which were nothing but a grotesque ego trip for him. The only Mitchell cars that I like are the 54 Caddy, Buick and Olds; the 55 Chevy and Pontiac; the original Sting Ray, and perhaps a few others too.

    Exner's car were OK, nothing special IMO, however. Frankly, there's very little American car design of the 50s-80s that I like. I do like Loewy's 53 Studebaker and Avanti a lot.

    As to being in a minority here, you're a good one to talk. Your ultra hardcore conservative views certainly don't square with the mainstream. As I said before, I agree with you on a bunch of stuff, but not when it comes to design and art. You're far too rigid in your beliefs as to what is right and wrong (which includes art), and you have a very hard time accepting new ideas -- which is the basis of all creativity.

    Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

    Bob
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    ballistic -

    I've owned a couple Porsches - My mechanic has a sign on his wall that reads:

    Porsche repair rate = $100 per hour

    Porsche-uh repair rate = $200 per hour

    Most Porsche owners I've know pronounce it Porsche
    and consider Porsche-uh a bit pretentious.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    It is never pretentious to speak correctly. Occasional misguided mechanics notwithstanding, the line of cars was named by and for its inventor, and members of the family have always pronounced their surname with two syllables. It is disrespectful to knowingly do otherwise.

    Oh...I would never return to a mechanic who was that ignorant.

    http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa020401b.htm

    Do you know the correct pronunciation of Porsche? While the “proper” way to pronounce some German terms in English may be debatable, this isn't one of them. Porsche is a family name, and the family members pronounce their surname PORSH-ah, not PORSH! Same for the car. Porsche's U.S. TV commercials pronounce the name correctly and so should you.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Good post even though the latter is correct in Germany. It's those who don't know one lick of French who go around using "moi" that turn my stomach.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I've always had a problem with that one. I've rewritten it this way:

    Beauty is in the eye of the creator for all to behold or question.
  • bgsintthbgsintth Member Posts: 16
    Not to drag you folks back on topic, but what do you think of SOA throwing the 2.5 Turbo (250hp/250lbs)into the mix? See link http://www.need-desire.com/main.html

    I took a very extended test drive in the X3, and was very impressed. Despite the reviews, I found the ride to be very smooth, yet still offer great handling. Brakes were great too, but did find myself wishing for more power. So, a really nice vehicle, but just did not hit all my buttons. Wife loved it, of course. But she is a badge slave in the highest Marin, CA temple of Bimmer.

    I just cannot see the advantage of the X3 over the Outback. The only thing I think the X3 will have over the Outback is more backseat leg room, and that is speculative. The new Outback with a manual, more power, lighter weight (3500lbs?), more ground clearance (1"), 17' wheels/tires, bigger brake rotors, and better cabin-should be a very nice and fun to drive truck (post CAFE reclass). I'm having a really hard time seeing the reason for spending an extra $10K on the X3. Maintenance and slightly better resale being the only two I can think of. And, oh yes, my wife's deep hatred of all that is Subaru and irrational exuberance for all that is BMW.

    Now trying to decide between the GT and the Outback......
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    Yeah, women love that prestige factor nonsense. I guess that's why I never got married. I can't tolerate it. It kind of strange, but I know people who have lots of money and they drive low end cars, and there are others who are making $50,000 a year and drive $40,000 vehicles. Crazy.
  • overtime1overtime1 Member Posts: 134
    ...there is no doubt in my mind I'd take the Outback XT over the X3 even if prices were identical.

    overtime
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    more power, lighter weight (3500lbs?),

    If Subaru's claims can be believed, the next Legacy/OB should weigh closer to 3300 lbs., which would be all to the good.

    However, don't be misled by the claimed 250HP. The XT has been found to make considerably more than its rated 210/235, so unless the Leg/OB turbo is similarly under-rated it may offer little if any power increase over the XT. Still, if the Leg/OB comes in at or near the XT's power-per-pound while offering increased refinement, quieter interior, maybe taller gearing, more backseat legroom, and that great-looking semi-Audi body, what's not to like? If I hadn't already invested in the XT, I'd be in line for a Legacy GT wagon.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    others who are making $50,000 a year and drive $40,000 vehicles. Crazy.

    It was to describe insecure, ego-driven folks like those that the term "conspicuous consumption" was coined. Very sad.
  • vsromanvsroman Member Posts: 95
    E-gads...someone wants to start a real forum where actual comparative discussion of two fine autos takes place w/o the interruptions of the subie fan club and WHACK...that sort of original thinking isn't allowed here...no sir

    let's talk about the new manual crank window features of the next new subie...

    yeehaw...
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Well Scott, you can chime in anytime you want on why you like your X3 so much. Oh that's right, determining whose bank account took the biggest hit isn't exactly something most people brag about :(o)

    -Frank P.
  • vsromanvsroman Member Posts: 95
    I was just looking for a place to compare the 2 I am considering. The original seed posts calling for the X3 v. FX comparo did not include the Subie. Even so, this forum turned into a place for Subie owners to bash people who prefer the more prestige labels, almost as though they have an inferiority complex. I am impressed by the Forester's numbers and agree that it is a great value, but I think that most people who are shopping the FX and X3 are not looking for a "wolf in sheeps clothing."

    Frank, if wanting an eye-catching ride is so wrong, I don't want to be right. :)

    By the way, I had a Murano rental for a few days last week, and now that too is strongly under consideration. Hmmm, it probably should be part of this comparo as well. I am serious, it is one helluv an SAV!
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    if wanting an eye-catching ride is so wrong, I don't want to be right. :)

    I know that there are plenty of people who place style above all else but I'll never understand it. I guess we're fortunate that there's such a wide selection of vehicles designed for all different preferences.

    -Frank P.
  • vsromanvsroman Member Posts: 95
    is not "above all else", it is just one of my must haves...like an exceptional safety record. Unfortunately, "style" usually translates into higher price :< As long as you stay within your wallet though, I don't see anything wrong with it.

    Funny, some people have the "style" bug and some don't. Many friends say "as long as it starts every time and gets me from point a to point b, that's all that matters." I am not critical of those who are of that mindset...if anything, I'm a bit jealous, especially when I make a car payment.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    turned into a place for Subie owners to bash people who prefer the more prestige labels, almost as though they have an inferiority complex.

    Who has the inferiority complexes? We're not the ones who need to stroke their egos by being seen in overpriced, underperforming "status" brands.
  • vsromanvsroman Member Posts: 95
    OK definitely, but "underperforming", maybe in the 0-60, but isn't performance much more than 0-60.

    In what other performance categories does the Forester beat out the X3 and FX35?

    Not that we should get back on topic! :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Who has the inferiority complexes? We're not the ones who need to stroke their egos by being seen in overpriced, underperforming "status" brands"

    By whose yardstick are we measuring overpriced? Seems like we don't like to say the Subie is overpriced, when a perfectly good vehicle can be had for $$$ less. The people who call vehicles overpriced generally can't afford them anyway. Egads, a Ferrari is overpriced, not a BMW X3.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    a Ferrari is overpriced, not a BMW X3

    They're both over-priced for what you get, just one more so than the other :-)

    -Frank P.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    They're both over-priced for what you get, just one more so than the other :-)

    I agree, so is the Subie. They are all overpriced relative to a Hyundia. The problem is someone artribrarily decided $29K was the line to call something overpriced. I'm lowering the line to $20K. Heck that 9K could buy you a heck of a return in a booming stock market. Instead all you have to show for the 9K is a turbo. Seems a bit overpriced and undervalued to me.
  • kcrudupkcrudup Member Posts: 26
    Ballistic likes to constantly voice the refrain that people are buying luxury vehicles to "be seen" in them, or for "ego stroking". Now, I don't know where you live, but I'm in Southern California- where there's so many nice and/or upscale cars nobody blinks an eye over what you drive unless it's exotic, classic, or well into the six-figure range (and even then, after the 3rd or so Lamborghini, you stop looking). Nobody buys a car to "be seen" in it when everybody else has something just as nice. Now, perhaps in Podunk, it's a different story, but everybody I know with a nice car here bought it for the features, not the price. If it turns out the price is higher, that's just the market.
  • akasrpakasrp Member Posts: 170
    but I'm in Southern California- where there's so many nice and/or upscale cars nobody blinks an eye over what you drive...

    No, they roll their eyes if you don't sport the same or better badge. I am a long-time SoCal resident and what you drive is who you is down here - impossible to deny or ignore. You may not personally buy it - or may have become numb to it - but the 1Up infection is rampant all the same.
    Guess I'm just as guilty - I like the Sube, in part, for the Anti-Badge - same game - different team.

    -srp
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "but I'm in Southern California- where there's so many nice and/or upscale cars nobody blinks an eye over what you drive..."

    Exactly. Unless you are driving a $500K plus exotic, it's all a blur.
  • kcrudupkcrudup Member Posts: 26
    I've been living in SoCal for only 2.5 years. Now, I don't know who you hang around with, but I personally haven't seen anyone "rolling their eyes" at any car unless it's a banged-up hoopty.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    There are people who want to focus on the attributes of the car buyer, rather than attributes of the car. Doing so allows one to rationalize all sorts of arguements about the car, because the arguement then becomes who you are is what you drive. Intelligent people will realize this type of thinking stems from insecurity/jealously/anger on the part of the person making these types of observations.

    The last 500 posts devoted to the my car is the best at any price point and yours is overpriced and under-valued, stems from the same type of thinking.
  • vsromanvsroman Member Posts: 95
    for kicks, if the 3 vehicles in this comparo were = in $, sim. equipped, then which one would you drive?

    Hypothetically speaking, which one would you choose...???
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    i have a limitation that would exclude the x3 and fx35. as much as i love the fx series i needed something with a lower entry access for my disabled father-in-law. he cant climb up into those others.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    or kicks, if the 3 vehicles in this comparo were = in $, sim. equipped, then which one would you drive?

    Hypothetically speaking, which one would you choose...???

    Strip away the badges and name tags too.

    From a pure *enjoyment* factor, which drives the best? Which is the most satisfying and rewarding to drive and to own?

    Bob
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    same $$$, would be in the X3. Best layout, nicest looking. Of course, everybody will say their favorite car, drives the smoothest, best, and has the best AWD system, posts the highest skidpad, best in slalom, etc.
  • petew4petew4 Member Posts: 71
    well said....
  • overtime1overtime1 Member Posts: 134
    I'd get the XT hands down over the X3 if priced the same. The next SUV "up" for me would be the FX45 which would be more equivalent than "up".

    Not sure if this has been brought up but the latest issue of Car and Driver has the XT squaring off against the X3 (as well as other new small SUVS) in a battle for Best Small SUV. The XT won which is doubly AMAZING when you factor in the love affair C&D has with Bimmers.

    XT. Winnah! ;-)

    overtime
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Not sure if this has been brought up but the latest issue of Car and Driver has the XT squaring off against the X3 (as well as other new small SUVS) in a battle for Best Small SUV. The XT won which is doubly AMAZING when you factor in the love affair C&D has with Bimmers."

    If CD wanted to buy me the XT I would take it. Otherwise, still would get the X3.
  • overtime1overtime1 Member Posts: 134
    Just adding fuel to the fire and adding more evidence that the XT belongs in the discussion. CD put it in the discussion and even gave it top honors. I'm not saying that means everyone should forget the FX35 and X3 and run out and get one...its all a matter of taste and priority.

    overtime
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    If CD wanted to buy me the XT I would take it.

    If C/D wanted to buy me the X3, I wouldn't take it. Ugly.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It was late when I posted. I meant to say: "If they bought it for me I would take it, but when I have to do the purchasing the X3 will still get the spot in my garage".
  • daschtickdaschtick Member Posts: 63
    "If C/D wanted to buy me the X3, I wouldn't take it. Ugly."

    People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones....
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "People in glass houses<i/> shouldn't throw stones.... "

    Correct. If you're gonna throw something, throw huge boulders.
This discussion has been closed.

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