I'm not sure that the engine is identical to the standard V6. It has the same block, but it has a different, lighter head and includes the VCM feature which the standard Accord does not.
Honda's use of words like "rocket" and "exhillerating driving experience" would also indicate that they are marketing it as a "Hot Rod."
It is a nice piece of technology, but seems to have missed a significant target market.
tradscott, I agree completely that the market for the HAH is small. People who have a long history of buying Accords will shop the HAH.
I will disagree that someone who can afford a $32,000 car will not be worrying about the cost of fuel. With the average cost of a new car at $25,600, it is nonsense to think that buying a $32K car puts you into a class anywhere other than an average middle class buyer. People making $35K-$45K per year can afford an Accord Hybrid if they are smart money managers.
As far as the environment, the new 2006 Honda Accord Hybrid is the FIRST EVER V6 engine to qualify as an AT-PZEV vehicle, putting it into the same "EPA cleanliness class" as the cleanest Prius and the cleanest Honda Civic Hybrid. That was not the case for the 2005 HAH.
And agreed for sure that a 4-cylinder mid-line Hybrid Camry will hit a sweet spot as far as providing a reduced Hybrid premium and a better overall consumer value....It's going to clobber the HAH in total sales, no doubt about that.
The bottom line is that each manufacturer brings something unique to the table. Honda is a very proactive company and WILL be competitive in the hybrid markets. I wouldn't worry about any nails in their coffin. The only coffin that has only two nails missing is GM...but that is being addressed in another thread. Yeah.. GM IS holding on by a thread. :P
Honda is a very proactive company and WILL be competitive in the hybrid markets.
When? They have not made a ripple yet. Honda is like a mini GM with SUV and mini-vans carrying the poor car sales. If it were not for the Pilot and Odyssey, Honda would be having a losing year. The Camry hybrid with a 4 cylinder and a decent sized trunk will easily outsell all of Honda's hybrids combined.
1. First Hybrid car on the road in USA. 2. First company to put a Hybrid drivetrain on an existing model car. 3. First company to have three Hybrids on the road in the USA. 4. First company to market with a V6 Hybrid. 5. "Cleanest Greenest Car Company" title for at least the last 2 yrs in a row. 6. Honda Hybrid models claimed four of the top five spots in the U.S Department of Energy’s "Fuel Economy Guide for Model Year 2003" 7. The Honda FCX is the lone entry as the only fuel cell vehicle certified by the EPA. 8. Insight was the first mass-produced gasoline-powered vehicle in history to achieve more than 70 mpg.
I'd say that's "more than a ripple" in most neutral observer's eyes.
I'm not saying they are a failure technologically. They have a lot to be proud of. It is just their sales of those technologies is for some reason lacking. Why the HCH does not outsell the Prius is a bit of a mystery to me. Why the insight does not sell is crazy. In Victoria British Columbia the MB Smart dealer has sold more of the tiny Smart Twofour vehicles this year than Honda has sold Insights in the whole USA. So it is not because the Insight is a small two passenger car.
The Insight is a two seater priced similarly to the Prius which is why it doesn't sell. It is a great commuter car. Honda will never be a mini GM, but that's your opinion. I see GM is buying engines and transmissions from MINI GM Honda? Jeeez...get real. The HCH does not outsell the Prius possibly because the Prius has more content and a hatch. The new HCH is very promising. I also hope that Honda considers putting a 4 cyl hybrid engine in their Accord. Honda has nothing to worry about. Their Acura division is doing fine too. GM should only wish they were half as good as Honda!
"Regardless of Honda's intent, it does not change the fact that the car is positioned at the high (expensive) end of their line, is overequipped for most buyers and doesn't deliver enough of an improvement in fuel consumption to be interesting to a large number of buyers. "
It fufills a niche market for those that want the power of the V6 Honda, but better mileage.
As hard as it may be to believe, not everyone wants to sacrifice all aspects of performance, example Prius, in order to obtain high miles per gallon. Since, the full aspects of the 2007 HC (Hybrid Camry) are not completley know except that it will probably be the 4 cylinder model, one can only speculate that Toyota is using the Prius paradigm of high mileage forgrt perfromance and that the HC will be a pathetic lethagic car acheiving 65/60 mpg with a 0-60 time of 10-11 seconds.
YMMV,
MidCow.
P.S. -Honda already has the higesh mpg commuter car, the Insight. And a traditional high mileage car , the Civic Hybrid. The HAH was more horizontal marketing to cover the niche of car buyers who wanted both performance and mielage.
The ICE Camry I4 is already a decent performer, for a family sedan. Why do you expect the TCH would be a "pathetic lethargic" car with the additional boost from the electric motors? If you want 0-60 in 6.5 neck-snapping seconds, there's always the HAH.
I agree that it is a niche product. I'm not sure that Honda wanted it that way. I was mainly talking about why the HAH is not selling very well. The V6 accord is a small percentage of Accord sales to start with. The V6 with top trim is even smaller. The HAH is smaller still. The fact that it is offered only in the top trim (read: price) probably hurts its volume appeal as much as basing it on the six. I could be wrong about the exact reasons, but it is obvious that the maketing people at Honda got it wrong.
Niche products are only worth doing if 1) they cost little to offer or 2) they provide large gross margins. The HAH seems to do neither. Honda is going after niche markets while Toyota continues to gain market share. It is interesting technologically, but something of a marketing and sales flop.
Toyota has undoubtably been watching the HAH and decided to try a different strategy that they expect will capture more buyers. I hope that Toyota doesn't make the Camry totally focused on mileage like the Prius. I doubt they will since that would make it kind of redundant. Hopefully, they will match or slightly exceed the performance of the 4 cyl with better fuel economy. We'll have to wait to see if their marketing people get it right.
I'm mainly speaking from what I would like to buy myself. That is a decent performing car (I consider the current Camry/Accord 4 cyl decent) that is relatively inexpensive (<25K list) and gets at least 40 mpg on the highway for my wife's commute. I also want it to have Accord/Camry type interior room and safety. I think that such a vehicle will be a commercial success.
Evidence strongly suggests that the power scheme in the Camry will be a 4 cyl. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a 2.4 ltr Atkin cycle engine instead of the Prius 1.4 ltr. It may even be a 2.0 ltr. I expect that 0-60 will be sub 10 second territory. Who needs 6.5 anyway? That assumes you're always flooring it from the start. Where I drive it's hard to even do that type of driving. What as waste!!! I think the Camry will outsell the Accord on the better mileage alone. It will be interesting to see!!!
Camry is outselling the Accord by nearly 20% this year. I think it is comfort and looks both. The new style Accord is just not very attractive. Hopefully Camry won't follow suit with a new ugly look for 2006. Accord cannot be comfortable for anyone over 6 foot tall. My head touched the head liner in the HAH the Camry has more headroom than my Passat. Though the Passat does have a moon roof. I think they should be able to squeeze 43 city & 40+ hwy out of a 4 cylinder hybrid.
The '06 Camry will look like the '05, but the '07 Camry (coming early next year) will be all-new with a sportier style based on the spy pics. However, the '06 Accord is getting a refresh including (yay!) a new rear end and interior.
Are sure you had the seat adjusted all the way down in the Accord? I had a 2003 Accord LX (no sunroof) and am over 6 feet and never had a problem with headroom. I hated the Passat, Camry, and Accord with the moonroofs, because none had enough headroom. I did see any noticeable difference as all had adequate headroom without the moonroofs. As I have said many times, the Camry dash says "Buick" and I can't handle it. The interior is just boring, but at least they added the backlighting.
Let's put it this way. When the salesman was trying to unload his HAH on me I told him there is NO headroom in this car. He just looked dumbfounded. My hand was tight slid between the roof and my head. My Passat has 3 fingers and the Camry without the moonroof has 4 fingers. Can't say as I have noticed the Buick dash. The Camry is boring compared to the Passat and many others. It was a comfortable car for the week I drove it. Very comparable to the Malibu I rented in Hawaii last time over. I think the Camry felt a little more solid than the Malibu. Both got 27 MPG over the week long period. The Camry has a nice big trunk. First car that would hold all our luggage. We usually rent an Explorer or TrailBlazer for the space they provide in back. Hopefully the Camry hybrid does not use all the trunk space for batteries like the HAH did.
I never ever desired to own a Toyota until the day I learned that there will be a i4 hybrid version. Will have to wait to see the pricing. Hybrid Camrys will be available 6 months after the new version arrives.
Everyone who is anybody in the world of Hybrid knowledge which I am involved with thinks Toyota needs to "low-end" the I4 Camry Hybrid. Let's hope they DONT make in a 4-cyl XLE and price it at $29000.
TOYOTA, ARE YOU FEELIN ME HERE? We want a $24,000 Well-Equipped CAMRY HYBRID 4-cylinder !!!
Tired of the hard riding '04 Acura TL, I traded to the '05 HAH. Why? I wanted the amenities of the TL, quieter, softer ride, and better mileage with regular fuel. Results; I lost a moon roof, slightly diminished audio sound quality, high speed cornering, and fuzz visibility. I got (am getting) 30 + mpg (over 5K miles in all kinds of driving) vs. 26 mpg, quieter ride, and virtually all of the bells & whistles found on the TL. Would I still make the trade after 25K TL miles and 5K HAH miles ..... the answer is a resounding yes. NB If anything changes after a 6-8K mile tour around north america in September, I'll let you know.
I am no expert in US prices but is not the Prius base MSRP around $21K not $24K?
A hybrid Camry MSRP with a MSRP(24K) that is 15% over the Prius is not unreasonable! A Prius will attract a different kind of customer than a hybrid Camry buyer!
Based on everything I read so far I believe Toyota wants to have two approaches with hybrids: A Lexus and a Toyota approach. The Toyota hybrid approach will focus on fuel efficiency at reasonable MSRPs and the Lexus hybrid approach will focus on performance at premium MSRPs.
I may be wrong, but then again I maybe right :confuse:
"A hybrid Camry MSRP with a MSRP(24K) that is 15% over the Prius is not unreasonable! A Prius will attract a different kind of customer than a hybrid Camry buyer!
Based on everything I read so far I believe Toyota wants to have two approaches with hybrids: A Lexus and a Toyota approach. The Toyota hybrid approach will focus on fuel efficiency at reasonable MSRPs and the Lexus hybrid approach will focus on performance at premium MSRPs."
Profit margins are lower for the base models; Toyota doesn't build as many. Most of the Prius I hear about are the top end model at 26K. I'm not sure that Toyota wants to provide a similar priced platform to the Prius; it might cost them Prius sales. I'm expecting the Camry hybrid to be an LE or XLE trim only, and would not be surprised if it were XLE only.
Keep in mind Toyota sells both the Corolla (4-door compact sedan) and Matrix (5-door hatchback) in roughly the same price range and doesn't seem to have conflicts doing that. So why couldn't they sell a Camry hybrid (4-door mid-sized sedan) and Prius (5-door mid-sized hatchback) in the same general price range?
If Toyota prices their cars in HH fashion (stuffing standard gizmos to the point where the HH MSRP looks abit too hefty), they may be outgunned below by Hyundai hybrids.Value pricing is required for Toyota to transform hybrids into a more mainstream vehicle.
Otherwise niche is the word that will be used to describe Toyota hybrids. While mainstream will be the word used to describe reasonably priced Hyundai hybrids. And Hyundai is not the only competition---Fuji(owner of Subaru) is very keen about producinghybrid Subarus and licensing their technolgy in high volume to other auto firms.
"Keep in mind Toyota sells both the Corolla (4-door compact sedan) and Matrix (5-door hatchback) in roughly the same price range and doesn't seem to have conflicts doing that. So why couldn't they sell a Camry hybrid (4-door mid-sized sedan) and Prius (5-door mid-sized hatchback) in the same general price range?"
You make a good point. However, I never think of the Corolla and the Matrix in the same thought. Just too different, and both are one of many ICE small cars available.
If you think of "hybrid", you get in mind a class of cars. Thus I think that having an I4 Hybrid Camry will compete with the Prius, rather more than the Corolla vs Matrix.
Think of it this way: how many Corollas would Toyota sell if it did not sell the Matrix? How many Matrixes (Matrices?) would Toyota sell if it did not sell the Corolla? Each car may take some sales away from the other, but the total sales of both cars together is greater than if they sold just one or the other.
I expect that is what will happen with the TCH and Prius. Some Prius sales will go to the TCH (maybe a good thing for Prius buyers, as prices and wait lists will ease up). But there are people out there who prefer a sedan vs. a hatcback (a weird-looking hatchback at that), and they would not buy a Prius but might buy a TCH.
I am one of those people. However, I'd be surprised if Toyota doesn't price the TCH a little bit higher than the Prius. It will be a little larger car, so I think they'll expect people to pay for it. Plus, a 3K difference would reduce the canabilization.
I hope that it is also a little more powerful and necessarily less efficient. It has a good chance of appealing to a lot of people who are interested in hybrids, but don't quite want to go all the way to the Prius. The THH and the HAH haven't done a good job of appealing to this segment, which I think is a large number of people.
I agree; the THH and HAH fill the need for powerful vehicles that also get excellent fuel economy for their power, but they don't interest people who care more about fuel efficiency than power. And these days there are a lot of those people out there. So it was a good move for Toyota (and Nissan for that matter) to go the 4-cylinder route on their new mid-sized hybrid sedans. Toyota can easily add a 6-cylinder Camry hybrid if they think there is demand for it--they already have a HSD 6-cylinder powertrain.
falconone said "I expect that 0-60 will be sub 10 second territory. Who needs 6.5 anyway? "
Actually there is a big difference between 10 seconds and 6.5 seconds, exactly 3.5 seconds.
Most cars today are around the 8 seconds range; that would be acceptable. 10 seconds on the Prius is almost the slowest Toyota. Even their SUVs and trucks are faster.
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S. I personally went with a 6-speed that gets 32.5 mpg on the highway at 65 mph and accelerates 0-60 in 5.9 seconds.
Actually, if you check the honda web site now, you will find the manual stick shift option for 2006 V6 EX model. There is no discout, though. I guess Honda has not figure out how to solve their V6 transmission problems, so they provide the manual transmission as an alternitive now for those wary buyers.
I would expect certain people need that type of power because they're in a big hurry. I used to own a Subaru WRX that could wipe the floor with a Honda Accord 6 speed. It gets old pretty quickly. I expect the Toyota Camry hybrid will have acceptable 0-60 acceleration (maybe 8.5-9.0?). I don't see too many people complaining about the Prius acceleration, or for that matter the Insight or HAH and the FEH. All have similar acceleration. With Kartina wreaking havoc, gas prices will go up another $0.20. I am sure all the hybrid owners are quite smug now!
Smug and Hybrid Owners - that is is one of the biggest problems in a nutshell. Thanks for the telling illustration, falconone. We would all be much better off if only they knew how much they had in common with the monster truck drivers who need a ladder to climb in their vehicles. Image is everything.
I still have to fill up my truck for weekend trips :sick: Lately I've been using my Prius for weekend trips. I bought it to commute 60 miles round trip to my place of business. I am currently averaging around 52. I'm quite pleased with the mileage. My heart does go out to all the SUV owners that only have that as a means of transportation. Lastly, my prayers go out to all those on the Gulf Coast effected by Katrina.
Wow... that's better than the EPA ratings (slower driving) AND better 0-60 times than all the car magazines. Is that a special edition that you have? :confuse: :confuse:
I have an Accord hybrid but would like to get the Camry hybrid as well. I can't find any mention of what the gas mileage will be. Do you know what they are projecting????
It is unfair to catagorize all SUV drivers as gas-guzzling, over-plluting types. Some may be fairly thoughtful. And many may use less fuel than you do by driving fewer miles.
I feel it is important to point out that the pollution you generate is proportional to the total amount of energy that you use, not just the mgps that you get. So, don't feel too smug if you drive an efficient car and then put 20,000+ miles on it per year. Also don't feel too smug if you drive a prius, but live in a 4,000 square foot house that uses a bunch of electricity, water and natural gas. If you fly frequently, don't feel too smug. If you don't recycle everything, don't feel too smug. Drving an efficient car is good when compared to the alternative, but it isn't everything.
Conserving fuel by reducing unnecessary trips, riding your bike to work, walking whenever possible, choosing to live near your work, turning the lights off when you leave a room, and avoiding idling are far mor effective than buying a more efficient vehicle. An efficient vehicle still pollutes and uses energy every time you use it.
Remember it used the same HSD that the 400h, Prius and HH alll use. Therferofe is gets higher City mileage than highway. For the 4 cylinder Camry hybrid the figures are 45 city and 40 highway.
By the way sinepman asked "Wow... that's better than the EPA ratings (slower driving) AND better 0-60 times than all the car magazines. Is that a special edition that you have? "
Actually I have the 6-speed Accord Coupe EX V6. I probably would have gotten a Prius or HAH if they offered a manual transmission. I have modified the exhaust, replace stock with Borla and rplaced the standard air filter with a K&N. The perfromnace is the same as the major car magaziines have recorded for the 6-speed 0-60 miles per hour in 5.9 seconds. I tink that is pretty accurate becuase I have a 2002 IS 300 5-speed that is rated at 0-60 mph in 6.8 seconds and the Accord is much faster. I previously had a 98 M3 5-speed and the accord is close to its performance.
Concerning mpg, many Accord owners achieve higher than EPa 32.5 is not unheard of. Normally on my 22 mile comute to work with some stop-n-go (8 miles), some fast hghway (80) (8miles) and some normal highway (65) (6 miles) I get around 23.5 driving sporty. Today , just for the heck of it and becuase gas prices were so high I drove as conservatively as I could and got 29.6 mpg.; not bad.
If the Camry H has a manual transmission , I am considering on buying one especailly with the 45/40 ratings. However, becuase of the integration of the HSD with the planetray gear CVT I don't hold much hope for a truly manual transmission, But 45/40 does sound intriguing as gas prices get closer to $5.00 When by the way I predicted some time back and am still predciting within the next 5 years.
Falconone where are you getting real-world gas mileage that is less than EPA and where are you coming up with 48/42 with a real world of 37. Some people in the HAH are getting EPa and some less. I think that is also true of the Prius.
Again remember how EPA test are run, especially the fact that most peopel drive on the highway much faster than 48 mph and that air resistance significantly reduce mileage.
Merely a wild guess. I see that CR averages about 44 on the Prius they tested. Edmunds about the same. It's safe to say that the overall average for the Camry Hybrid should be in the high 30's at most. The Prius also has a low Cd going for it which the Camry doesn't. Very easy to speculate, let's see what happens in nine months or so when it's released. Sorry midcow... definitely NO 6 speed for ya!!! :P :P
"Remember it used the same HSD that the 400h, Prius and HH alll use. Therferofe is gets higher City mileage than highway. For the 4 cylinder Camry hybrid the figures are 45 city and 40 highway."
midcow- It has nothing to do with HSD; the HCH also gets better city mileage, as I recall, and it has a CVT. The higher mileage is achieved by the electric motors and turning off the engine while stopped.
Toyota claims the Prius is .26. Toyota claims the Camry's is 0.284.
If we assumed that all of the energy was going into the air resistance and that the cross section of the two vehicles were the same, then the real world number would be equal to 0.26/0.284*44=40.28.
I don't think that it will necessarily have the same engine as the prius, but I think that an EPA estimate of 40-46 on the highway is probably a good guess. It has to be this high to be interesting when compared to the 4 cyl. Either that, or they need to reduce the price differential.
They probably can't go higher than that nor would they want to or it would overlap with the Prius. I'm sure that marketing set a target, then the Toyota engineers picked a drivetrain to hit it.
Actually, the higher efficiency in town is due to the lower speeds. Air resistance goes up with the square of the velocity. So, a car going 60 uses 4 times the energy bucking the wind as the same car going 30. I think that a similar thing happens to a tire's rolling resistance, but I'm not 100% on that.
The hybrids also recapture and reuse some fairly high percentage of the energy that normal cars waste while breaking. That, combined with not idling, mean that most of the energy which is lost by the car goes to wind resistance and tire rolling resistance, both of which are less at lower speeds.
That is the general conept, but grossly oversimplified.
If we didn't have wind resistance, the hybrids would get better mileage on the highway because they wouldn't be losing any braking energy.
Toyota's system has the added property that while running purely on the batteries, energy isn't wasted through viscous losses in the engine, but it still loses energy because the drive motors are probably only ~90% efficient and there are resistive losses in the battery and wires between battery and motor. I can't say for sure which is higher.
Comments
Honda's use of words like "rocket" and "exhillerating driving experience" would also indicate that they are marketing it as a "Hot Rod."
It is a nice piece of technology, but seems to have missed a significant target market.
I will disagree that someone who can afford a $32,000 car will not be worrying about the cost of fuel. With the average cost of a new car at $25,600, it is nonsense to think that buying a $32K car puts you into a class anywhere other than an average middle class buyer. People making $35K-$45K per year can afford an Accord Hybrid if they are smart money managers.
As far as the environment, the new 2006 Honda Accord Hybrid is the FIRST EVER V6 engine to qualify as an AT-PZEV vehicle, putting it into the same "EPA cleanliness class" as the cleanest Prius and the cleanest Honda Civic Hybrid. That was not the case for the 2005 HAH.
And agreed for sure that a 4-cylinder mid-line Hybrid Camry will hit a sweet spot as far as providing a reduced Hybrid premium and a better overall consumer value....It's going to clobber the HAH in total sales, no doubt about that.
When? They have not made a ripple yet. Honda is like a mini GM with SUV and mini-vans carrying the poor car sales. If it were not for the Pilot and Odyssey, Honda would be having a losing year. The Camry hybrid with a 4 cylinder and a decent sized trunk will easily outsell all of Honda's hybrids combined.
Honda Hybrid History:
1. First Hybrid car on the road in USA.
2. First company to put a Hybrid drivetrain on an existing model car.
3. First company to have three Hybrids on the road in the USA.
4. First company to market with a V6 Hybrid.
5. "Cleanest Greenest Car Company" title for at least the last 2 yrs in a row.
6. Honda Hybrid models claimed four of the top five spots in the U.S Department of Energy’s "Fuel Economy Guide for Model Year 2003"
7. The Honda FCX is the lone entry as the only fuel cell vehicle certified by the EPA.
8. Insight was the first mass-produced gasoline-powered vehicle in history to achieve more than 70 mpg.
I'd say that's "more than a ripple" in most neutral observer's eyes.
It fufills a niche market for those that want the power of the V6 Honda, but better mileage.
As hard as it may be to believe, not everyone wants to sacrifice all aspects of performance, example Prius, in order to obtain high miles per gallon. Since, the full aspects of the 2007 HC (Hybrid Camry) are not completley know except that it will probably be the 4 cylinder model, one can only speculate that Toyota is using the Prius paradigm of high mileage forgrt perfromance and that the HC will be a pathetic lethagic car acheiving 65/60 mpg with a 0-60 time of 10-11 seconds.
YMMV,
MidCow.
P.S. -Honda already has the higesh mpg commuter car, the Insight. And a traditional high mileage car , the Civic Hybrid. The HAH was more horizontal marketing to cover the niche of car buyers who wanted both performance and mielage.
Niche products are only worth doing if 1) they cost little to offer or 2) they provide large gross margins. The HAH seems to do neither. Honda is going after niche markets while Toyota continues to gain market share. It is interesting technologically, but something of a marketing and sales flop.
Toyota has undoubtably been watching the HAH and decided to try a different strategy that they expect will capture more buyers. I hope that Toyota doesn't make the Camry totally focused on mileage like the Prius. I doubt they will since that would make it kind of redundant. Hopefully, they will match or slightly exceed the performance of the 4 cyl with better fuel economy. We'll have to wait to see if their marketing people get it right.
I'm mainly speaking from what I would like to buy myself. That is a decent performing car (I consider the current Camry/Accord 4 cyl decent) that is relatively inexpensive (<25K list) and gets at least 40 mpg on the highway for my wife's commute. I also want it to have Accord/Camry type interior room and safety. I think that such a vehicle will be a commercial success.
As I have said many times, the Camry dash says "Buick" and I can't handle it. The interior is just boring, but at least they added the backlighting.
I never ever desired to own a Toyota until the day I learned that there will be a i4 hybrid version. Will have to wait to see the pricing. Hybrid Camrys will be available 6 months after the new version arrives.
TOYOTA, ARE YOU FEELIN ME HERE? We want a $24,000 Well-Equipped CAMRY HYBRID 4-cylinder !!!
NB If anything changes after a 6-8K mile tour around north america in September, I'll let you know.
A hybrid Camry MSRP with a MSRP(24K) that is 15% over the Prius is not unreasonable! A Prius will attract a different kind of customer than a hybrid Camry buyer!
Based on everything I read so far I believe Toyota wants to have two approaches with hybrids: A Lexus and a Toyota approach. The Toyota hybrid approach will focus on fuel efficiency at reasonable MSRPs and the Lexus hybrid approach will focus on performance at premium MSRPs.
I may be wrong, but then again I maybe right :confuse:
Based on everything I read so far I believe Toyota wants to have two approaches with hybrids: A Lexus and a Toyota approach. The Toyota hybrid approach will focus on fuel efficiency at reasonable MSRPs and the Lexus hybrid approach will focus on performance at premium MSRPs."
Profit margins are lower for the base models; Toyota doesn't build as many. Most of the Prius I hear about are the top end model at 26K. I'm not sure that Toyota wants to provide a similar priced platform to the Prius; it might cost them Prius sales. I'm expecting the Camry hybrid to be an LE or XLE trim only, and would not be surprised if it were XLE only.
Otherwise niche is the word that will be used to describe Toyota hybrids. While mainstream will be the word used to describe reasonably priced Hyundai hybrids. And Hyundai is not the only competition---Fuji(owner of Subaru) is very keen about producinghybrid Subarus and licensing their technolgy in high volume to other auto firms.
You make a good point. However, I never think of the Corolla and the Matrix in the same thought. Just too different, and both are one of many ICE small cars available.
If you think of "hybrid", you get in mind a class of cars. Thus I think that having an I4 Hybrid Camry will compete with the Prius, rather more than the Corolla vs Matrix.
I expect that is what will happen with the TCH and Prius. Some Prius sales will go to the TCH (maybe a good thing for Prius buyers, as prices and wait lists will ease up). But there are people out there who prefer a sedan vs. a hatcback (a weird-looking hatchback at that), and they would not buy a Prius but might buy a TCH.
I hope that it is also a little more powerful and necessarily less efficient. It has a good chance of appealing to a lot of people who are interested in hybrids, but don't quite want to go all the way to the Prius. The THH and the HAH haven't done a good job of appealing to this segment, which I think is a large number of people.
Actually there is a big difference between 10 seconds and 6.5 seconds, exactly 3.5 seconds.
Most cars today are around the 8 seconds range; that would be acceptable. 10 seconds on the Prius is almost the slowest Toyota. Even their SUVs and trucks are faster.
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S. I personally went with a 6-speed that gets 32.5 mpg on the highway at 65 mph and accelerates 0-60 in 5.9 seconds.
As smug as the owners of the cheapest econo-boxes assuming mpg is your only criteria!
Why? They knew they were getting rotten mileage when they bought the car. They also have the option to trade in for more fuel-efficient vehicles.
Don't have the slightest sympathy for these gas-guzzling, over-polluting types.
I feel it is important to point out that the pollution you generate is proportional to the total amount of energy that you use, not just the mgps that you get. So, don't feel too smug if you drive an efficient car and then put 20,000+ miles on it per year. Also don't feel too smug if you drive a prius, but live in a 4,000 square foot house that uses a bunch of electricity, water and natural gas. If you fly frequently, don't feel too smug. If you don't recycle everything, don't feel too smug. Drving an efficient car is good when compared to the alternative, but it isn't everything.
Conserving fuel by reducing unnecessary trips, riding your bike to work, walking whenever possible, choosing to live near your work, turning the lights off when you leave a room, and avoiding idling are far mor effective than buying a more efficient vehicle. An efficient vehicle still pollutes and uses energy every time you use it.
Let's get back to comparing these two vehicles - features, handling, etc.
If that is a guess, let me add mine: City 39 / Highway 35. Real world around 35 / 33. And I think I'm being generous.
You can expect that the CH will have better mileage than the regular 4 (26C/34H or slightly better), but less than the Prius.
Highway 42
City 48
Realword average- 37
By the way sinepman asked "Wow... that's better than the EPA ratings (slower driving) AND better 0-60 times than all the car magazines. Is that a special edition that you have? "
Actually I have the 6-speed Accord Coupe EX V6. I probably would have gotten a Prius or HAH if they offered a manual transmission. I have modified the exhaust, replace stock with Borla and rplaced the standard air filter with a K&N. The perfromnace is the same as the major car magaziines have recorded for the 6-speed 0-60 miles per hour in 5.9 seconds. I tink that is pretty accurate becuase I have a 2002 IS 300 5-speed that is rated at 0-60 mph in 6.8 seconds and the Accord is much faster. I previously had a 98 M3 5-speed and the accord is close to its performance.
Concerning mpg, many Accord owners achieve higher than EPa 32.5 is not unheard of. Normally on my 22 mile comute to work with some stop-n-go (8 miles), some fast hghway (80) (8miles) and some normal highway (65) (6 miles) I get around 23.5 driving sporty. Today , just for the heck of it and becuase gas prices were so high I drove as conservatively as I could and got 29.6 mpg.; not bad.
If the Camry H has a manual transmission , I am considering on buying one especailly with the 45/40 ratings. However, becuase of the integration of the HSD with the planetray gear CVT I don't hold much hope for a truly manual transmission, But 45/40 does sound intriguing as gas prices get closer to $5.00 When by the way I predicted some time back and am still predciting within the next 5 years.
Falconone where are you getting real-world gas mileage that is less than EPA and where are you coming up with 48/42 with a real world of 37. Some people in the HAH are getting EPa and some less. I think that is also true of the Prius.
Again remember how EPA test are run, especially the fact that most peopel drive on the highway much faster than 48 mph and that air resistance significantly reduce mileage.
Motor On YMMV,
MidCow
midcow-
It has nothing to do with HSD; the HCH also gets better city mileage, as I recall, and it has a CVT. The higher mileage is achieved by the electric motors and turning off the engine while stopped.
Toyota claims the Prius is .26.
Toyota claims the Camry's is 0.284.
If we assumed that all of the energy was going into the air resistance and that the cross section of the two vehicles were the same, then the real world number would be equal to 0.26/0.284*44=40.28.
I don't think that it will necessarily have the same engine as the prius, but I think that an EPA estimate of 40-46 on the highway is probably a good guess. It has to be this high to be interesting when compared to the 4 cyl. Either that, or they need to reduce the price differential.
They probably can't go higher than that nor would they want to or it would overlap with the Prius. I'm sure that marketing set a target, then the Toyota engineers picked a drivetrain to hit it.
The hybrids also recapture and reuse some fairly high percentage of the energy that normal cars waste while breaking. That, combined with not idling, mean that most of the energy which is lost by the car goes to wind resistance and tire rolling resistance, both of which are less at lower speeds.
That is the general conept, but grossly oversimplified.
If we didn't have wind resistance, the hybrids would get better mileage on the highway because they wouldn't be losing any braking energy.
Toyota's system has the added property that while running purely on the batteries, energy isn't wasted through viscous losses in the engine, but it still loses energy because the drive motors are probably only ~90% efficient and there are resistive losses in the battery and wires between battery and motor. I can't say for sure which is higher.