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Has Honda's run - run out?



  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Fiat might have at some point in Europe been selling a lot of cars, but they had nowhere NEAR the volume of Honda worldwide, ever in their existence.
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,687
    Except for outselling them from 1997-2000 according to this chart (the only years on the chart).

    worldwide sales
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Well, if that chart data is true, then you have indeed found a "major car company" which went out of business. Fiat must have sold something other than "passenger cars" - did they sell commercial trucks also?

    But don't expect that to happen to Honda..... :shades:
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,687
    I guess that I missed the beginning of the conversation. Now that I have read the last couple of pages, I agree that the topic is about Honda's huge run of success, not the possibility of closing up shop.

    By the way, Fiat is still in business. In fact, I think all the companies you listed are still in business except Yugo.

    How about Rover as an example of a big car company that went out of business?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Well, if you are judging it by 2005 totals, Honda is doing swimmingly well.

    If lower sales and shuffling models are indicators of "success rate slowing down" then Honda is not in that category.

    Their sales are solid, if not specatcular, and they have not done a lot of model shuffling lately.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 12,034
    my interpretation of the thread title. :)
    acura needs more volume. from my local observations, people are not stepping up to acura from honda. the civic and accord are good sellers, but they lose the customers after that. there were a good number of accords in my neighborhood, but they were replaced something other than a honda product. the first neighbor who had a gen 2 ody, did not replace it with a gen 3.
    basically they can't afford a mistake with the civic or accord because the competition is getting closer. i think the new civic will do well, although i haven't actually seen one, which does surprise me.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    We currently have a Civic, Accord and a MDX. The MDX is new(to us) and we traded an Odyssey to get it. I'm an "old" Toyota guy so I also have a 1994 LS400 from back when Honda mand Toyota really knew something about "soft touch" interiors.

    We have plans for an RL in the near future.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 12,034
    based on the numbers i see posted here, acuras are low volume sellers. my guess is that lexus sells in several multiples of those numbers. that is what honda needs.
    if hondas lineup works for you, that's great.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    profit. If Honda is making plenty of money on what they sell, they should be OK. At least they aren't giving cars away or having to run fire sales to clear most inventory. GM is in a lot of trouble but they sell a LOT of units.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    Hondas don't tend to be super price-competitive, except for the base models of the super-volume Accord and Civic. Now back when they really were the cat's meow compared to the rest of the market, they earned the right to be more expensive than similar models from other manufacturers, but the playing field has evened out a lot more these days. Honda's resale values for used models are even more skewed. I like Hondas a lot, but it is true the golden days are over.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 12,034
    honda is subsidizing a lot of leases and selling vehicles below invoice. mabybe not the levels of some other manufacturers, but they are doing it.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    It's usually to clear out inventory. And usually it's not on the top level products. I got in on the "clearance" lease special on the outgoing Ody. 2 years at $249 month. But it was only on the cloth versions. Not the loaded leather equipped ones. Sure they have "sales" but they don't have wholesale givaways.

    "Invoice" ain't nothing but another number. It's really just as arbitrary as MSRP. Dealers have more spiffs and incentives than we'll ever know.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 12,034
    how do you know honda dealer spliffs and incentives aren't more generous than other manufacturers?
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    I just said that there are many that aren't advertised. Such as a bonus with every 5th car etc. All those figure into the "true" cost to the dealer. "Invoice" is just as fluid as MSRP.
  • both the TL, TSX, and MDX were selling pretty well. The RL may not be doing as well as Acura hoped but they are selling.

    What car in the Accord's segment is selling better than the Accord with NO rebates? Even the Camry has rebates. The new Civic seems to be selling well. I know the local dealers here can't keep them in stock.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    I'm hearing posters in the last 40 posts say Honda saying Honda should merge with GM. Thats crazy. GM has alot more problems than Honda right now. Thats awkward to even make a staement say that. I even hear posters say people should return to buying do buying domestic and that a Neon is better than a Civic. I'll agree a Ford Focus is on par with 01-05 Civic but a Neon? No way! BTw, the Neon is dead and is being replaced in Dodge's line-up by the Caliber. General Motors I grew up on because my parents grew up on the domestic Big 3 buy american theme in the 80's. I don't like their interiors of late. Chrysler and Ford are ok even though the Neon for Chrysler is on the chopblock. GM I like the Eqinox. The G6 and Impala are ok looking but I wouldn;t buy them over a Mazda or a Honda.

    Oh yeah of Honda's glory days I mean well they're quality ratings are still up there. My only concern about Honda is styling and problems with first year model quality. The 03 Accord in its first year of bodystyle had issue's rattling & sqeauking. The TL had the same thing. I wish Honda would get a handle on these sqeauks amd rattles with first year models. The 01 Civic, 02 RSX, and 04 TL were downgraded to average reliability by CR in their first year of bodystyle. The 01 Civic and 02 RSX are now above average in reliability by CR so my conclusion on the 01 Civic and 02 RSX is they both had some problems mechanically early on in their life cycle but both have aged better than alot of cars mechanically. The reliability verdict is still out on the 04 TL however.

    On the Ridgeline's styling I like the front of it but the back end bothers me. I wouldn't buy one over the Ford F-150 myself despite being a Honda fan. In my opinion, Honda is not experienced enough with building a heavy-duty pick-up yet. In my opinion Honda, Toyota, and, Nissan I don't think well ever build a pick-up to compete with the Domestic Big 3 offerings. Look at GM and Chrysler they don't have a Accord/Camry/Altima fighter yet. Maybe Ford does but than again the Fusion is based off of the Mazda 6. I know Chrysler has the 300 but the 300 is not a mid-sized car.

    Oh yeah Honda styling, I don;t like the refresh of the Honda Pilot. Its just doesn;t look right.

    I heard a post talking about Nissan and you never know what you are going to get. I mean sure in the 90's Nissan built some elegant but bland cars but their quality was still up there with Honda and Toyota. Ever since the Carl Ghson era started at Nissan with the release of the 02 Altima their quality ratings are like Mercedes like of late: Nissan's quality ratings have gone down in the past few years in both CR's rating's and JD powers. In opinion Ghosn did way too much costing at once. His cost cutting shows up in current Nissan interiors and in their latest reliability ratings. Iwill give credit to Ghson because Nissan is one of the most profitable automakers currently but I think Nissan's cost cutting is catching up to them. Last month Nissan sales were down 13.3% from October 2004 figures. That to me is a big monthly sales loss for a automaker that has been the hottest automaker since 2002 in terms of sales and gaining market share.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    "Honda's resale values for used models are even more skewed."

    I agree Honda's resales are not as good as they were in the 90's but the last generation Civic you have to remember was not styled as sleekly as the 92-95 and 96-00. The 03 Accord also suffered the same fate in the styling department. The 90, 94, and 98 Accord looked sleeker than the 03 does. To me styling is so important nowadays. I think the 01-05 Civic lost alot of sales to the Ford Focus back a few years ago before the pile of recalls hit the Focus hard. I think also the 2001 Hyundai Elantra also took some 01-05 Civic sales. To a less lesser extent even the 99-03 Mazda Protege gained some sales too. The big loss in Civic sales was the 2003 Corolla. The 96-00 Civic outsold the 98-02 Corolla but the Corolla got beefed up in size and has been outselling the Civic since its early 02 as an 03 model launch I think.

    "I like Hondas a lot, but it is true the golden days are over."

    I agree Honda's golden years were probably 1994-2000 when the generation X crowd was buying Honda's like crazy. I did look at Honda sales from 1994-2000 and Honda gained over like 250,000-300,000 new customers I think in that 6-7 year period. Now the young crowd(generation Y)is going for the Mazda 3 and Scion TC now instead of the Civic and Accord. On the other hand yeah the competition has caught up but that doesn;t mean Honda is all of a sudden a bad company. I am generation X person and I just don't like Honda's like I did in the 90's. I like their Acura line-up but styling on the Civic and Accord Sedan has slipped in my opinion since the mid 90's.

    The Accord and Civic sales have gotten hit hard by models like the Nissan Altima, Mazda 3, and Scion TC of late. I should also add Hyundai has been adding customers like crazy in the past few years and that definately makes a negative effect on Honda sales. Honda did go through a sales downturn in from 1991-1993 but I think that was more of people giving the domestic Big 3 automakers a second chance after some Big 3 buyers left their domestic big 3 cars in the early-mid 80's for Japanese cars. Once generation X came in 1994 Honda was back on a roll again. I don;t think Honda will ever see a big sales increase like they did from 1994-2000. The 1985 or 1986-1989 period Honda also had big time sales growth too.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    Well overall sales for the brand have been up since the release since the 99 Acura TL. I see alot of 99-03 and 04+ TL's, TSX's and MDX's running around and even 05 RL's. I think most Honda customers if they don't go to Acura from their Honda Accord per say they'll go to BMW or Infinti. I don;t think a Honda owner is going from their Accord to a Mercedes or a Caddy. BTW, I wonder how many Honda or even Acura owners switch to Lexus.

    Honda is hardly on the edge of bankruptcy or anything so there is no needed to worry now in terms of the company's financial being for now. From a styling direction standpoint there is need for improvement though.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    From a styling direction standpoint there is need for improvement though.
    I agree, a lot of their vehicles are criticized for having bad styling. Although the 2004 TL was a hit.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 12,034
    how many cars does acura actually sell?
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • ron_mron_m Posts: 188
    The current TL is a great-looking sedan. So are the new Lexus IS series sedans. The IS250 and IS350.

    When Honda first released the 2003 Accord sedan I didn't particularly care for its body style at all. However, I must admit that it has really grown on me the last year or so. My personal favorite Accord sedan body style was the fifth generation 1994-1997 models. 5th gen Accords just look a bit sleeker in profile to me. During my daily commute I see several 5th and 6th generation Accord sedans on the highways. In fact, I see more of these cars on the road than any other make or model. It's simply amazing to me how many of these Accords are still out there running and looking good.

    Last month GM and Ford sales were down 22% and 23% respectively for year-on-year sales. Both Toyota and Honda had sales increases for the month of October. As GM and Ford sales continue to decline, it will be Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura and Nissan/Infiniti that will pick up the majority of the newly defecting Big 3 customers. Honda will be able to compete globally with no major problems. Asian vehicles are becoming more and more popular in Europe these days for a combination of reasons, and Honda will be there to capture additional market share.
    Lots of Big 3 brand loyalists in America are now writing off their former favorite badges altogether. Understandably so. They just don't feel as though the value is there for what they're spending their hard-earned money on. Honda is just too smart to sit back and let several other companies surpass them in the global automotive market, so look for the styling to get better and the build quality and downstream reliability to return to the level of the golden years within the next 3-4 years.

    Ron M.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    I think the Ridgelines (sales) problems fall into 3 areas, and in this order:

    1) Styling. There's no question the styling is shocking, and in some areas downright ugly. I think Honda "stylists" (not designers—but stylists) did an absolutely horrible job executing the the fender flares that surround the wheel cut outs. Frankly I can't ever recall a worse job on any truck. The fender flares flat out ruin the profile of the vehicle. There are other "styling" gaffaws as well, but none rank with the fender flares.

    If Honda had just made the fender flares simple (instead of being so over-designed), like what's found on the Ford Super Duty, the profile would look a hundred times better. Believe me.

    Also, they should have offered it with larger (more macho-looking) 265-sized tires. The Ridgeline comes across visually much like a "midnight cowboy," or a "dandy" at a dude ranch. In some ways it's over-dressed, in other ways it's under-dressed.

    2) The lack of a low range (whether it's needed or not) is a "must-have" for many "truckers." By not having that feature, Honda lost a good portion of the trucking audience. These folks just won't take the vehicle seriously without that feature. Remember, these guys are skeptical of ANYTHING new—and couple that with not having a low range—and you've lost that group for good.

    Having a low range is in many ways symbolic of "work and play capability." Without it, it has a "wuss" image; with it, it would have a much better chance of being "accepted" by the trucker crowd.

    3) Price. This has been discussed at length here, so no need for me to repeat what's been said. I will say this though. If Honda had nailed the styling, and if they had offered a low range, pricing would be far less of an issue.

    In some ways Honda shot themselves in the foot. They come out with a radical product (for this audience), give it awkward styling, iffy off-road capability, and price it high. It's really a shame, as the vehicle is so good in so many other ways. Honda will get it right eventually, but they should have done so much better coming out of the starting gate.

    Even so, it's still a great vehicle—and I still say it will have a profound impact on future truck design and engineering from other brands.

  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    I forget who mentioned it, but if we're going to question Acura's existence based on sales, we should look at the actual numbers. Here's a snapshot of those marques for which I was able to find Oct. YTD sales.

    Cadillac... 197,717
    Acura... 177,107
    Benz... 174,593
    Lincoln... 116,438
    Infiniti.. 113,182
    Volvo... 106,431
    Audi... 66,315
    Jaguar... 26,042
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 12,034
    bmw 253k, lexus 232k. acuara is closer than i thought, numberswise.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    are all over the place around here now. So I guess that model update has been well received. And I see that Honda has jumped right in with the '06 Accord refresh, offering a $199/mo lease on the LX-SE. I wonder if the Accord's numbers will jump back up now that it has been restyled. That would prove a lot of Edmunds posters right! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Don't you love it when people pronounce it with 3 syllables?

    They look like they're in trouble. The X-type reached downmarket and was supposed to increase sales. Oops.

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 7,966
    That's FOUR syllables isn't it?? :blush:

    jag u a er

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,504
    A local dealer advertisement says it
    yaaag u waaaar
    I don't think I quite got the speech pattern but it sounded like t he lady was british and was at a high tea party and was talking down to peons about her Jaguar as if they mispronounce it all the time but that's okay cause you can't expect much of commoners... attitude.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Some times I program my Garmin NAV to speak in a British accent and I pretend I'm in a Bentley. LOL


    Back to Honda, do the NAV systems speak lots of languages?

  • boomchekboomchek Vancouver, BC, CanadaPosts: 5,314
    In Canada the Honda Navi has a bilingual capacity and its programmed to receive english and french commands.

    2007 BMW 328i Sports Pkg

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