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Comments
You mean you haven't started?
I don't know exactly what Scott has in mind for the two companies, but most of the suggestions about mergers tend to include companies which are favored by the person suggesting the merge. Otherwise, they have little in common.
I would agree that BMW and Honda both have valuable technologies and terrific experience with engines and overall engineering. But that's not really important in the business world. Mergers usually aren't about products. They're about management, overhead, and cost-cutting.
Sure, maybe they can share an A/C compressor or two, but I'd outsource that to a supplier anyway.
It would be more likely for Honda to partner with JATCO and BMW with a European supplier. In fact they already do, the assembly of the X3 is outsourced completely.
-juice
I seriously doubt a potential merger these two equals.
Bob
Bob
-juice
I see no need to merge or takeover anybody. Just keep the momentum going with fresh nice products, perhaps reduce the model recycle time to four years, as opposed to five. Better yet, develop a RWD platform, and use it for the most of the Acura lineup.
Sport Sedan (TSX)
Sport Coupe (RSX... based off TSX)
Luxury Sedan (TL)
Luxury Coupe/Convertible (CL... based off TL/RL)
Premium Sedan(RL)
And, Compact SUV (RDX) & Midsize SUV (MDX) could continue to use light truck platform, and NSX remains exclusive.
I wish Honda would take this route for the future of Acura.
Don't be surprised if the RD-X outsells the X3, either.
-juice
I remember Mercedes arguing for years that tilt/telescope steering wheels were foolish. Their position was: 'Through much research we have discovered the perfect steering wheel placement. Nobody should ever need to adjust it.'
They also couldn't understand the Yankee desire for cupholders.
Mercedes USA finally got the message through and tilt wheels (along with cupholders) made their appearance.
My 126 had no cupholders...my C43 does, including the cool robot arm one that comes out of the console...but I never drink while driving.
But I am sure for the normal consumer...both of those issues were a big deal.
-juice
But sales numbers don't accurately reflect profits. And profits are the one thing that matters. Ask anyone working for GM.
Rocky
2018 430i Gran Coupe
BMW is keeping Honda on their toes for technology. Sometimes going a bit too far (i-drive) but still steps ahead in some aspects (Rear drive, large displacment motors)
My point was that sales volume alone is not the end game. There are many ways to measure success. Corporations are going to be interested in the measures related to profits. Therefore a merger is going to be based on what is profitable, not which brand sells more, not technology, not philosophy.
Rocky
"The Beauty of All Wheel" along with Audi's Quattro system a step further. A high performance Acura RL with SH-AWD with a stick would smoke most Audi's. I hope a TL get's this system also darn soon along with a few more Tech upgrades. My point is I feel Acura has the edge on all AWD producers. R&D paid off big time.
Rocky
And technology? BMW is using throttle-less fuel metering now, Honda is where on this for Acura models? If anything, BMW is getting much too carried away with technology (the dubious benefits of "active steering" and i-Drive, for instance, also the insistence on run-flats here there and everywhere).
Honda would have a lot of things to learn from BMW if they ever merged. BMW has some things it could learn from Honda too, but it wouldn't be willing to listen, I'm sure.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Plus, I think, solutions on A6 quattro (Torsen differential) are "inherently" better than SH. Latest Torsen is electronically-aided mechanical transfer, i.e. the system response does not rely completely on sensors and CPU unit. Its is a difference between analog (continuous) response vs. digital - in the latter a lag is inevitable, as the processor can do only as many input/output loops; system response becomes an instant input for the next loop, while in mechanical/analog system this problem does not exist. There are other advantages of Torsen systems.
SH can transfer torque to a wheel, but by the time it can do that, the system already needs a different split.
I know it's a lame explanation from a laic person (I'm a structural engineer, not mechanical/control) - just the way I understand it - it probably is not the best.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
My point is, SH-AWD is unproven in the market, while Quattro has been around forever. I wouldn't go around praising Honda for their AWD superiority over Subie and Audi just yet. Like Nippon said above, lets see it get implemented into some more models before considering Acura in the same field.
I am totally confident that they will succeed. :shades:
Sorry, Rocky, I have to disagree with you somewhat and I own a 2004 Acura TL 6-speed.
Acura is indeed up there with the best when it comes to gadgetology. The voice activated Nav system and Bluetooth phone definitely come in handy. But in the sport sedan market, BMW has the goods that count the most to serious drivers. The steering, handling, chassis dynamics, etc. aren't a little better, they are a lot better.
The current SH-AWD RL is an oxymoron. It is not "super handling". It's excessive curb weight (4,000 lbs) makes for very un-nimle handling. I'll take my FWD TL 6-speed with the stiffer suspension and Brembo brakes anyday. And in terms of acceleration, the RL is a dog compared to my TL.
I'd really like to see Acura go for the gusto with a RL sport sedan that was RWD, had a 550i competitive V8 and a short throw TL/S2000 style 6-speed. Keep the AWD version for those that don't own an MDX (we do) and don't care about hauling around an extra 300-400 lbs of drivetrain and chassis components. If Acura had a serious 550i 6-speed competitor, I'd give it a crack at anything under $60k. But right now they don't. So I'll continue to enjoy my TL for half the time and my 911S Cabriolet for the other half. Life could be worse.
Honda can compete in that that area (S2000, NSX, etc.) but it's not something they put into their everyday products the way BMW does. And I don't think they should. Not until they can afford to do so.
Coincidentally, and besides electrical nightmares, take a guess on another major weak link in Audi/VW vehicles... you guessed it right, it relates to their drive system which includes quattro.
Don't place your bet on Quattro in Toureg over VTM-4 in MDX yet, simply based on the knowledge that Audi/VW has been developing Quattro forever.
As for whether it is superior to other brands, I think depends on how you grade the systems.
If the best AWD is the one that gives the largest boost to the vehicle's driving dynamics, then I think SH-AWD is the winner. Imagine how poorly the 4K+ lbs RL would handle if it had 290 hp running through the front wheels alone. The ability to overdrive an outside wheel is both unique and very effective. It simply needs a better chassis to highlight what it can do.
However, if the best AWD is the one that varies the most power fore and aft, I think you'd have to give the award to Subaru. SH-AWD can manage a power spilt of 30/70 and Quattro's max split is something like 67 or 69%. With the system in the STi, the driver can modulate the power split via controls in the cockpit and it has a wider split (something like 90% or more).
If the best system is the one that performs well enough, without adding huge costs, or adding too much weight, or killing fuel economy, while being reliable... In short, the best all-rounder, then it might be somebody else.
Here's a nice link on the general subject:
http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd.htm
When I evaluate a traction system, the question I ask include:
* is the front axle managed?
* is the rear axle managed?
* is the system engineered for full-time use?
* is the system proactive (vs. reactive)?
* can the system send all the power to either axle?
SH-AWD does 4/5, all but the very last one. But it does something unique - it can actively transfer power side to side on the rear axle. So give it a 4+, maybe even a 5, obtained by treading its own path. Kudos to Acura.
Quattro is a generic name used for many AWD systems, but their latest Torsen has a bias ratio of 2 to 1, which limits torque to 67% to either axle. So it has that limitation. A torsen is also mechanically reactive, though Audi claims the traction control system can proactively distribute torque. Even if we give them that one, Audi still only manages 4 out of 5.
Subaru's VDC can manage all 5. But note that only the Outback VDC model and the Tribeca get it. Most other Subies only manage 3 out of those 5.
Not sure about ATTESA, but it's RWD-biased so I really wonder if it can send 100% of torque to the front axle, I kind of doubt it.
-juice
Rocky
For instance, the AWD system on the Outback VDC is more sophisticated than the one in the WRX STI, but the latter carries a performance bias, i.e. it's not built for ultimate safety and traction, it's built to allow you to break traction and have fun doing so.
So I seriously doubt ATTESA is safer or more effective, in fact it's probably less effective to allow drifting and power slides, stuff like that. OTOH, it's beefier, to be able to accomodate all that torque.
If we bring up 4WD the criteria change once again. In that case things like a low range (REAL low) and the ability to lock the axles is more important, but that's a different story, not really for street.
-juice
I would highly recommend the TL 6-speed to someone that wants a fun, sporty sedan with great features and excellent build quality. But I would never claim that the FWD TL 6-speed handles as well as a RWD 330i. Every once in awhile, I jump in after driving my 911 and forget to frimly grip the wheel when accelerating around a corner. That torque steer will wake you up real fast.
It seems Rocky, that you have some pretty stong opinions about cars you have hardly driven. As someone who logged 155k virtually trouble free miles on a Nissan Maxima, the G35 had my loyalty to lose. They did. Crappy interior ergonomics and an engine that is rough as heck compared to the free revving TL and 330i. The 6 speed was spongy compared to the Acura and BMW as well. It does have the advantage of RWD, but unless you get the G35 Coupe, the handling is not that impressive, IMO.
I have never owned a BMW, so my respect for their engineering and performance is unbiased by needing to justify a purchase decision. I'm not sure what kind of 330i you looked at for $50k+, but try test driving a $53k M3. I think you'd have to be nuts to think that anything from Japan comes even remotely close. Same goes for the 550i 6-speed.
My personal opinion of BMW is it's a decent handling car that lacks style and technology, but still demands a premium price for what :confuse:
Rocky
I happen to not agree with your opinion. I believe most auto reviewers will say the same to
But I do agree that the 3 series should come with more luxury features (such as the ones you stated).
Yes it will be a very cool car, but will make the CTS-V a winner. Especially when you look in your mirrors and see that Bimmer disappear like "Snakeweasel" does to his competition. :surprise:
Rocky
P.S. I wished Acura would make a Type-S or R with a couple of Turbo's and SH-AWD so it could do the same. :P
However, when the road turns sharply, I'd have to give the edge to any BMW product. I haven't driven the new 3 series, but reviews give it the same praise the 3 has always earned.
I would probably recommend the TSX to anyone seeking handling closer in line to the Bimmer. It's a little more frisky than its bigger brother. All that's missing is the extra power.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Seems to me they could include quicker steering ratios, stiffer springs, maybe fatter no-sway bars and market is almost like BMW does its Sport package.
-juice
Only one missing sporting attitude is the RL, which just needs better tuned suspension.
-juice
They should do a type-R treatment on it in the same spirit as the ITR of the 90s, but to a less extreme extent for the wealthy buyers in this segment.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Please understand that I am not trying to discredit your opinions - everyone is entitled to their own. But just where the heck are you coming from? In January and February, you posted exhaustively in the "Is styling going to save GM?" forum touting their great products. Rocky as a GM Protagonist I was convinced that you were a full card carrying UAW employee - and thought you even admitted as much.
Now, come March, we are to believe that all of this time you used to own a 2005 TL 6-speed. What, if I might ask, what do you own/drive now? If these truly are your opinions from experience, so be it. But something smells very fishy here.
Back to my opinion. As a current 2004 TL 6-speed owner (w/HPT package as well), I think I can unequivically state that anyone that thinks it handles as well as a RWD 330i clearly doesn't know how to drive a 330i. Period.
I was even once thrown out of the country for having unpatriotic views on what is ones duty.
Don't want to get personal, but something DOES NOT add up here, I might say.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Please, please, PLEASE, tell me that "FWD" was a misprint.
I've advocated for Acura to quit [non-permissible content removed]-footing around and make the RL a legitimate competitor to the BMW 550i. In order to do so, they need a high revving V8, a serious sport suspension, a short throw 6-speed, and most of all, a RWD based chassis and drivetrain. All of that should be able to be accomplished in around 3,700 lbs. The bloaty 4,000lb AWD version could be the "non-sport" option, as it is on the 530i and E500.
If Acura ever puts out a FWD version of the RL again, everyone associated with it should be unceremoniously EXECUTED. :mad: Or at least fired.