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Has Honda's run - run out?
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They won't sell that here, though. RDX sort of fills that segment for Acura.
-juice
Looking at that chart, I was surprised by how much dealers were relying on the first generation CL.
The RDX fills the need for a wagonish vehicle in the line-up. So I wouldn't expect to see anything like the Euro Accord wagon.
My own silly notion is to bring over the JDM Odyssey. That's the rig Juice noted in the video from a few days back. It's a van that's more like a wagon. Think of a slightly larger version of the Mazda5, but not nearly as big as a US minivan. Marketers would call it "a sports-tourer'.
Anyway, give it the J32 from the TL or the K23 turbo from the RDX and bring it over in full luxury treatment. It's already fully-loaded in Japan. The Ody is a good-looking vehicle already. With a few cosmetic upgrades and a sportier suspension set up, it would make a good vehicle for empty nesters. There are a number of people who grew to love the space in their minivan, but don't have kids in the house anymore. Consider it a down-market alternative to the R Class from MB.
R-class is selling below expectations, though. Perhaps Benz just price it too high (higher than the ML).
I like the JDM Ody but might keep it as a Honda. They could even bump up the equipment in the base Odyssey and leave the sub-$26k market for the smaller van.
-juice
If they make it a damn Front driver I will have a fit :mad: Otherwise Honda is going to be missing the boat on the intended market...
But isn't the Fit a front-driver, too?
:P
If they took a well-equipped JDM version (3.0L V6) with no changes at all, it would probably start near $28K. That would include power everything, but not the NAV, memory seats, or a top shelf stereo. Those items would add to the cost.
Now, tweak it a bit for the US market. Give it the 3.2 V6 from the TL or the 2.3 Turbo from the RDX. Tighten the suspension a bit and give it a facade more in keeping with the Acura family. The base trim would probably go for $32-33K. Then load it with NAV, ELS stereo, memory seats, etc. and it would easily sticker for $35-36K.
A luxury van like the Town & Country looks almost identical to the Caravan it's based on. It also performs like a Caravan and gets as much respect. The JDM Ody looks nothing like anything else on the US market. It handles more like a sport wagon than a van. Its most direct competitors would probably be the T&C and the Pacifica. However, I can also see it stealing sales away from the Volvo, Audi, and BMW wagons.
It appear they noticed the problem and started to correct it(latest Civic, Fit look good.) However, they need to do the same for Acura line or else MBenz/BMW/Lexus will beat them every time.
Mazda5 proved there is a market, at least on the value end of the scale. It has exceeded Mazda's expectations.
I think the class folded when the bizarre-looking predecessors failed in the market, I'm talking about the Nissan Axxess.
Maybe it's time to revive an old idea?
I'll bring my camera next time I go to church. It's surreal to see a JDM vehicle with diplomatic plates on US roads. Pretty cool.
-juice
The Honda line has some real issues with the current Accord and the Ridgeline. But the Odyssey, Pilot, CR-V, Civic, and S2000 are all fine. That Fit you mentioned is actually wearing sheetmetal from 5-6 years ago. We're getting that model after it's been on the market in other countries for a full product cycle.
Frankly, I think BMW is the one in danger of having styling hurt their game.
For me, the wheels are just about perfect, compared to other shortcomings (performance oriented) of this wannabe flagship. And whether its the wheels, or the ho-hum performance, the RL is just about dead last in sales volume among its peers (5 series, E class, A6, Infiniti M, GS, etc.).
If you are that serious in your affection for the car, I suggest you cut a good deal and swap out the wheels. You should be able to pick one up for well under invoice.
Why, you think the 5 Series and 3 Series are such lookers. Maybe the last generation of 5 Series(98-03) and the 3 Series(99-05) were lookers but the current generations of 3 and 5 Series are not lookers. The front of the 3 Series is quite good stylisically but the back of it? The current 3 Series doesn't have quite the sleek and elegant look of the last generation(99-05)3 Series.
Lexus, are the ES330 and LS430 lookers? Not really. THE GS and IS are ok looking though in my opinion but nothing to get wowed over.
The Accord in Honda's line-up is the one that needs alot more sportier look stylisitically at the moment.
This is not to knock Mercedes or anything like that since I respect them alot but the R-Class has too much of a resemblance to its little brother: The Chrysler Pacifica in my opinion.
"The first full year was 1987, and sales were 109k."
"So there really wasn't much growth until much later. In 1998, they still had 110k in sales, basically no real sustained growth after 11-12 years or so in the market. To make things worse, they had 2 models in 1987, but a full 6 models in 1998."
I wonder what year Lexus passed Acura in Sales since we are going over all these sales numbers. I think the Acura brand came out 3 years before the Lexus brand did so Acura did have a 3 year headstart on Lexus. Nissan's Infinti brand came out out the same time as Toyota's Lexus's brand did but still Infinti has never had the sales numbers that Lexus or even Acura has had. I wonder how close sales numbers wise the 1995-1999 I30 and 1996-1998 TL were as well. I also wonder how close the first generation LS 400 and 2nd generation Legend were as well in sales numbers. Wasn't the first generation LS 400 out when the 1991-1995 Legend was on the market or was it not or was the Lexus GS a direct competitor to the Legend at the time in 1993 if it was out rather than the LS400?
RL tweaking already? Honda usually waits until a fourth model year of a current generation bodystyle of one of its cars to do a mid-cycle refresh. The RL is going in for a refresh in its 3rd year of bodystyle of its current generation model? I think the TL is due for a mid-cycle resfresh for the 07 model year as well.
They had the LS and ES250 at first, the latter was not much of a model. But very early on they were able to establish a great rep for quality and service, and to this day they get mileage out of that. Also, Toyota was willing to spring for investment in a true flagship, and that also helped set them apart.
It's tougher for Honda. They've always made efficient engines, so to come out with a powerful flagship goes against the grain.
-juice
PS carguy: good point about the resemblance to the Pacifica
Not bad for an Si with only a 54 hp boost. I'm sure the professional driver at the wheel didn't hurt their results, either.
Subaru had 3 in the top 10. :shades:
-juice
And the Civic beat 'em all. :P
Just for kicks, scroll down and take a look at the 2nd and 3rd place entries in the "SUV" category. Then note that poor old Porche earned 4th after them. :surprise:
-juice
They're running forced induction. Modified Jackson Racing supercharger from what I read.
Awesome but that's not really an "Si" any more. :P
-juice
But everything on the track was modded. Some of the competition was cranking out well over 400 hp.
-juice
The AMS Evo that took third place was running 525-550 whp and weighed in at 3,000 lbs.
The Civic Si was reported to have gained 54 whp which would make the total about 230-240 whp with 200 lbs less than stock (2,877 - 200 = 2,677 lbs).
The Topspeed STi in fifth place was running 100 whp less than the Evo and weighed 300 lbs more (according to the guy who runs the AMS Evo). Which means roughly 425ish whp and 3,300 lbs.
The Ultima GTR is supposed to be putting down 500 whp to move 2,200 lbs. :surprise:
Since Honda went out of their way last week to specifically deny a hybrid CR-V, my educated guess is that this will be the 2.2l diesel from Europe for that same vehicle.
Let's see how the segment pans out. Highlander went hybrid, Escape and Vue as well. Liberty went diesel. Oddly enough, the Liberty is the one in short supply. There are actually incentives on the hybrid SUVs.
Perhaps Honda felt the segment was getting a bit crowded and opted instead to bring over the already-engineered diesel. By the time the plant opens low-sulfur diesel will be widespread.
To me the only question is - can they get it to pass emissions in CA and other CARB-rules states in the NE?
-juice
Aren't those the same crazy guys that made the Consulier? Remember those whacky ultra-light cars? They ran a 2.2l turbo Dodge engine.
I wouldn't want to drive one daily, though.
-juice
In my experience I have never run across either a Jetta or Liberty Diesel in my travels. I have seen an E320 Diesel, but it had Conn. plates.
A diesel in the CRV would be a welcomed option IMO. I had a Toyota Avensis diesel while on a tour of Ireland and I would buy that car in a heartbeat if I wanted a new daily driver. Plenty of power, without the racket that supposedly accompanies a diesel motor.
-juice
They've got it wrong.
1 plant in the US for an undisclosed vehicle (not a hybrid).
1 engine plant in Canada to supply 4 bangers to the HCM plants. The only vehicles using 4 cyls at those plants are the Civic and Acura CSX (which is a Civic all gussied-up).
There is news of a diesel and news of a hybrid, but perhaps not what people are expecting.
Takeo Fukui has announced the development of a V6 diesel. But that looks like something for the semi-distant future.
Mr. Fukui did announce a 'new' diesel for the US within 3 years, but I think he means the same 2.2L unit sold in the UK with new emissions hardware. I doubt very much he's talking about the V6 diesel.
The news that has most Honda-phyles flipping is the part about a dedicated hybrid car. In my mind, that makes the rumors of a hybrid Fit a little less secure. It's very possible they intend to build a hybrid on the Fit chassis, but it won't be a Fit. It'll be a unique design.
The Insight sort of tried to look like one, but it was too narrow and made too many concessions IMO. Give it a tweaked Civic Hybrid powertrain, with less weight, and it might actually appeal to a whole cross-section of greenies and enthusiasts.
-juice
-juice
A separate model leaves less room for direct "price recuperation" arguments. And that makes sense, from marketing perspective.
I'm wondering if Honda has a completely different hybrid system up its sleeves, may be something along the lines of a scooter prototype we have seen from them a few years ago. One, that can be a series or a parallel hybrid, based on driving conditions.
Could this also involve the first application of HCCI engine technology? I was hoping to hear more about it.
Bob
One strategy - they could come out with the Hybrid first, and give it a unique name. Then, maybe a year or so later, some out with a similar conventional Fit. By then the hybrid will be recognizable and already have positive PR.
In fact, that might even rub off on the conventional Fit and help sales of that car.
-juice
I anticipate it will be Fit-based. That would explain why we have those rumors about Honda producing a hybrid Fit. And it would also explain why Takeo Fukui all but denied those rumors. However, I think it will be a hatch or a sedan, while the Fit remains more of a wagon. It'll have a unique front facade while the underpinnings are all Fit-based.
I don't think he meant a dedicated hybrid system. I think he meant a dedicated car. Not a body style used for anything else other than this hybrid. The IMA may very well be the same as a Civic or a variant of it.
100k is a very optimistic number. They're going to have to come out with a very low price to earn that many new sales.
Let's see, a well equipped Fit runs in the $16s. The Civic Hybrid is up to $22k, so I bet it comes in at around $18-19k for starters. I'd be impressed if they can get the price that low.
-juice
A Japanese car rag has published news about a new Stream. (Which also looks to be based on the Fit!) But one of the tidbits is news of the long-awaited next generation iVTEC. Rather than a step-style progression from mild to wild, it offers continuously variable lift and timing.
This is supposed to be similar to BMW's VANOS design in the benefits it provides, but the design is supposed to be less complicated and cheaper to produce.
And, yes, I think that sales estimate might have been produced after a long meeting with free saki being served.