:confuse: The hybrid experts have been stating that price of hybrids will decrease as production increases. Especially Toyota hybrid prices as they are going to decrease the const of components by 50%.
Prices of Prius keep increasing. This does not support the "economy of scale" theory proposed by some participants.
As long as the manufacturers are making money on the hybrids, I'm happy.
quote moparbad-"The hybrid experts have been stating that price of hybrids will decrease as production increases."-end quote
It's not a "hybrid phenomenon" that new car models sometimes have MINOR price increases year-to-year. It happens on almost all popular cars, and it's just another way for the car maker to recoup some of the R&D money and increase their profits.
What "will become lower cost" over time, based on economy of scale principles, is the REPLACEMENT COST OF FAILING PARTS. When 750,000 Prius batteries are made per year versus 200,000, then Toyota will get a price break on the cost.
Actually I don't even consider the fact that the Prius had a price increase. You're getting MORE content for the same money. It now has a tire pressure monitoring system as standard. I think the backup camera is an option. Regardless, you gotta love it!! Sweeeett Prius!!!
Now Clearwater will add six more hybrid sedans to the three it already owns, at a cost of $20,700 each. The new cars, all Toyota Priuses, will be split between the city departments, though the majority are earmarked for the police."
Looks like they may have a long wait. Toyota is suspending fleet sales to government agencies.
quote dewey-"I think the truth about the real mileage of hybrid SUVs is starting to filter through to the public!"-end quote
No, the REAL truth is that these SUVs outperform gas only models by A LOT if the driver uses the technology to it's fullest:
RX400h capable of consistent 25 MPG tanks HiHy capable of consistent 30 MPG tanks Escape capable of consistent 36 MPG tanks
The reason sales dropped for the Civic Hybrid is that it was a "lame duck" 2005 model selling, with everyone anticipating the arrival of the HCH-2 for 2006.
The reason sales dropped on the other models is because gas prices came down to more reasonable levels and people stopped "hurricane panicking" about trading in their gas-hog SUVs.
And they dropped because hundreds of thousands of people affected by hurricanes DID NOT PURCHASE new cars.
If what we are seeing is a trend it shows the shortsightedness of the American buyer. There was no reason in the world to take a big hit on a less efficient car or SUV. Jumping on the hybrid bandwagon is total foolishness. If you are shopping a new car and need the attributes of a hybrid that is fine. To take a several thousand dollar loss on a larger car to save a few pennies at the pump is beyond most economist's comprehension.
On the other hand maybe most of those interested in hybrids have bought. I can see a limited market for the Prius and new HCH. The rest are probably headed for obscurity. With the mandated ULSD in less than a year, MB will bring the diesel SUV that exceeded the RX400h in a cross country mileage contest. Jeep is gearing up even earlier to add diesel to all their lines. Then you will have "REAL" SUVs that get great mileage.
Sometimes Gary, I don't know if you are serious or if you are just saying things to get into my Craw.....:D
First of all, no one I know has money to burn and can "jump on the hybrid bandwagon." Unless you are living in a different USA than I am, Gary, MOST people are not rolling around on their mattresses in extra discretionary income.
Everyone I know buys the car they need or the car they like, and does not pay attention to anything else that anyone else is doing. I personally have never, and I know of no one in my family or my company or my circle of friends, who has bought ANY CAR, EVER, for any reason other than "I liked it" or "it fits my family well." I have never met nor heard of anyone who has bought a car because there is a bandwagon for that vehicle.
And you AGAIN have uttered the puzzling statement "maybe most of those interested in hybrids have bought." That is a totally confounding and utterly stupendously unrealistic statement. I thought we weaned you off that statement when we told you:
"That will happen when total Hybrid Sales for the year are ZERO worldwide."
Only at that point will "everyone who wants a hybrid" have one. And that will NEVER happen as long as every company you hear about is rushing to get a hybrid to market, and Toyota and Ford are pledging combined 750,000 hybrids as a 2010 sales goal.
What planet again are you from, Gary, that you think all this corporate planning and marketing and obvious success (almost 200,000 hybrids to be sold in USA this year) is anything but a solid, true market for hybrids?
And all this diesel talk is making me more nauseous than smelling it - diesels are YEARS AWAY from having a significant impact in the USA. Hybrids are on the way UP and will continue UP.
Actually the police are going to buy them as civilians and the department will reimburse them. Gotta love it!!!
How does this work? Is each vehicle purchase from a civilian a separate public bid? Is the sales tax (that would not be paid for a direct govt. purchase) reimbursed?
Actually I don't even consider the fact that the Prius had a price increase. You're getting MORE content for the same money. It now has a tire pressure monitoring system as standard.
Tire Pressure Monitoring System is STANDARD....WOW! Every 2006 passenger car is required to have it.
If what we are seeing is a trend it shows the shortsightedness of the American buyer. There was no reason in the world to take a big hit on a less efficient car or SUV. Jumping on the hybrid bandwagon is total foolishness. If you are shopping a new car and need the attributes of a hybrid that is fine. To take a several thousand dollar loss on a larger car to save a few pennies at the pump is beyond most economist's comprehension
Well stated and accurate. Hybrids should stand alone on their own merits as vehicles. I've stated here that fuel savings is WAY down the list of reasons for buying. It's a hook that catches attn but it's the vehicle that sells itself. It's either worth the money to some or it is not the same as is every other vehicle in the market.
The vehicles other than the Prius I believe have a major flaw which precludes them from being truly high volume vehicles like the Prius. Except the Civic which as stated above was a lame duck, the others are all Hybrids linked to V6's. They are performance vehicles; i.e. V6's w/ V8 power and good FE - IOW specialty vehicles.
The Prius OTOH is perfectly placed in that it's an efficient 4c with great features that appeal to upscale buyers. The new HCH may succeed also. It will be interesting to see if the buyers line up for the HSD Camry 4c in the same way they do for the Prius.
Camry price for 2006 increased $250 and Prius increased $450. Not only are hybrid prices increasing instead of decreasing, they are increasing in price at a higher rate than non-hybrids. 2.1% increase in Prius and 1.2% increase for Camry.
It's not a "hybrid phenomenon" that new car models sometimes have MINOR price increases year-to-year. It happens on almost all popular cars, and it's just another way for the car maker to recoup some of the R&D money and increase their profits.
Cost increases are not a "hybrid phenomenon", HIGH PRICES are a hybrid phenomenon.
First of all, no one I know has money to burn and can "jump on the hybrid bandwagon."
It seems to me that you have said many times people are "DUMPING" their gas guzzler SUVs to buy hybrids. I think you may have been one of them. Did you get top dollar for your GM PU/SUV? I also remember a few articles that emphasized that same concept of trading a gas guzzler in on a hybrid.
AS far as zero sales, that will not happen until the manufacturer quits building the vehicle. The Insight, probably the best solo commuter car on the market, is not doing too well. Even the much hated Hummer2 is still selling, doing well in many markets. They still bring a 5 grand premium in Alaska. I do believe the shine is getting rubbed off the hybrids. Practical people buy practical cars. For most buyers the hybrids are not practical. I don't see the hybrid demographics changing in the near future. Especially when Honda and Toyota allow HUGE premiums to be tacked on to the hybrids. $3-5k over MSRP for a 2006 HCH. Only a crazy man would pay that kind of premium on a glorified econobox. The dealers are trying to get every penny of the tax credit and then some.
Oh, I am from the planet melmac, I foresee a big surge in diesel sales for the coming year. Don't get in a hurry to buy a new car. There may be a 70 MPG diesel Civic in your future.
Actually I think many people are waiting for the tax credits. Even Prius sales are down. As much as I normally DON'T agree with Gary, he is right about the SUV hybrids. Much more expensive and mileage gains are not as handsome. I can't see why people buy them. With respect to MB.... no one will pay those high prices for shoddy merchandise. MB really needs to improve their image.
This used to be at least a $200 option in some cars. Have a look at the Prius board and see my post regarding the new content. The increase is quite modest. Gotta love it!!!!! hehehehehhehehehehehehe
quote gagrice-"Practical people buy practical cars."-end quote
Yep, and lucky for the car manufacturers, THAT group of people who buy cars only for the practicality of the car is a "niche" and small group of buyers. Many cars that sell for a lot of profit for the dealers are FAR from "practical." You know that. Emotions play a huge role in car sales.
quote gagrice-"It seems to me that you have said many times people are "DUMPING" their gas guzzler SUVs to buy hybrids. I think you may have been one of them."-end quote
Yes, people are "Dumping" their SUVs for hybrids and smaller cars in some cases, but it's not a BAD or DUMB thing to do. What happens as the 10-year-long SUV craze wears down is that people begin to realize (what they might not have admitted a year ago) that "we have too much car - too big a payment, too big a fuel bill" and they look for something more reasonable and cheaper to drive. That's the people who are buying more hybrids as "replacement" cars for something larger.
( My personal case was that I went from a 7 person family to a 3 person family and realized I no longer needed an $878 per month payment on an Avalanche. )
quote gagrice-"there may be a 70 mpg Civic diesel in your future"-end quote
I certainly HOPE SO !! Give me a diesel/electric 5 passenger Civic that gets 70 MPG and I buy that puppy TODAY !!
quote gagrice-"the shine is getting rubbed off on the hybrids"-end quote
What shine? The mainstream media has done NOTHING to put a shine on the hybrids. I have only seen ONE hybrid story in two years that did not say what a terrible financial mistake it is to buy a hybrid. That's a SHINE? I'd hate to see the opposite of shine !!
You provided all the right reasons why hybrid sales fell!
But if those were the causes then how do you explain the Prius?
Did falling gas prices provoke interest in the Prius? Did the hurricanes prevent people from purchasing a Prius?
It appears for the month of October hybrid SUVs are not as popular as a Prius!
Now I know one month does not make a trend, BUT if the sales figures continue showing sales growth of the Prius/new HCH and lacklustre growth in hybrid SUVs then we can fairly conclude that most consumers do not believe in Santa Claus or in that wonderful hypothetical world where most people achieve the following mileage:
RX400h capable of consistent 25 MPG tanks HiHy capable of consistent 30 MPG tanks Escape capable of consistent 36 MPG tanks
I agree with you completely about diesel SUVs! I think Honda made the right decsion in focusing their hybrid technology to cars and diesel technology to trucks!
Bottomline:
HCH and Prius are worthy fuel efficient vehicles Hybrid SUVs are just not as good as diesel SUVs
In terms of dollars and sense I would find more fuel efficient value in something like a Honda Accord i4 manual or a simple basic vanilla Civic than any costly hybrid alternative.
Of course sales are down. You'd have to be a real [non-permissible content removed] not to realize why. Its the nice juicy tax credit that folks are going to get from Uncle Sam!!!
You'd have to be a real [non-permissible content removed] not to realize why. Its the nice juicy tax credit that folks are going to get from Uncle Sam!!!
Maybe not a [non-permissible content removed] but a Canadian who does not know IRS tax credit rules.
My point is that in hybrid vehicles, "EPA-Busting MPG performance" is POSSIBLE.
Not everyone has the right type of commute or the time to commit to learning the techniques, but for NOW, those high MPG hybrids are the best for good MPG and the cleanest cars we have.
Canadians really don't count for much of the Prius purchases in NA. The population of Canada is LESS than the state of California. I wonder if sales are down there too!
What you may not be aware of, being up in the great white north, is that during the summer and fall months US car mfg rolled out the largest price rollbacks in their history to combat declining sales. In some cases GM in particular priced cars close to cost just to get rid of them.
Hybrid Flop Too bad the entire article is not available.
Canadians purchase smaller cars and more fuel efficient cars compared to the US. Strange to see that hybrids are not popular there.
Why? Hybrids are not so popular without the government welfare tax incentive that is offered in the USA. Actually, some provinces do offer tax incentives for hybrid purchase and sales are still poor.
Someone else posted this stat before so I cant take credit for it but consider what the Hybrid SUV's accomplish vs the Prius and HCH.
Lets assume ( not argue ) that the Prius and HCH get 48 mpg combined versus an ICE 4c CamCord which gets about 27 mpg combined; The HH and RX400H get 25 mpg combined vs an ICE Highlander or Pilot which get about 19 mpg combined;
In driving 1000 miles - - the Prius/HCH drivers will use 16 gal less than the ICE CamCord drivers - the hybrid SUV drivers will use 13 gal less than the ICE drivers.
If the HH driver can nudge his usage up to 27 mpg combined like in Edmunds test... then he saves 16 gal/1000 mi driven just the same as the Prius/HCH.
With low mpg figures small differences make for relatively big percentage savings.
The V6+Hybrid works just as well as the small 4c+Hybrid couple it just costs a lot more and it's directed at a specific market which is relatively well off. It's why the RX400H was offered first to Lexus buyers. They can afford to 'drive cleaner' by choice.
Also, in Canada, they did not use the "buy a hybrid, get an HOV pass" incentive either, did they?
Anyone know of any other government sponsored clean air program ( besides the hybrid tax incentive ) that will help put almost 500,000 CLEAN cars on USA roads in the years 2004-2006? If so, let me know - I want to contribute to the congressional campaign of any congressperson who sponsored such a HUGE success.
If you read the article on TPMS, it says that only 20% of 2006 model year vehicles must have TPMS--not all of them. So the Prius is one of the minority of cars that will have it for 2006.
Also, re the Camry price increase being smaller than that of the Prius... the '06 Camry is an obsolete model that is being replaced in a few months, while the Prius is a hot seller and has large tax incentives available starting in January. No wonder its price increase is higher.
Buy a vehicle and Google pays you $5000. Ride your bicycle to work and Google pays you ZERO.
On the road, Sergey Brin and Larry Page have owned environmentally friendly hybrid vehicles such as the Toyota Prius. In the air, they apparently prefer something roomier.
Google Inc.'s two billionaire founders, both 32 years old, will soon be cruising the skies in a Boeing 767 wide-body airliner. They bought the used plane earlier this year, Mr. Page says.Hypocrisy
The height of hypocrisy. Driving your Prius to the airport you help to save the planet up until the point you fire up your 767 and burn more petroleum than I'll use in a lifetime. Priceless.
Flash: Camry takes fourth out of four cars in MT's recent mid-sized car comparo. Flash: Camry takes fourth out of four cars in C/D's recent mid-sized car comparo. Flash: Camry takes third out of three cars in Edmunds.com's recent mid-sized car comparo.
Do you want me to quote the average number of days of cars in inventory for Toyota dealers for the Camry vs. the Prius, or is that enough Reality 101 for you?
there are a lot of posters that are umm.. lets just say their bark is bigger than their bite. it is generally accepted that hybrids get better mileage than gas only variants of the same vehicle. it's just that there are not too many of them and the purhase price is a lot higher. even if it is a unique hybrid, depending on how many miles you drive, it may not work out to save money over some other choice.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Gagrice wrote: "Honda and Toyota allow HUGE premiums to be tacked on to the hybrids. $3-5k over MSRP for a 2006 HCH. Only a crazy man would pay that kind of premium on a glorified econobox"
One would think that you would grow tired of spewing this misinformation over and over. http://automobiles.honda.com/landing.asp Shows a comparably equipped EX (Some options are not even available on the EX) costs around $500 less than the fully equipped (Less Nav on either) HCH.
If you want to quote the price of an all manual, roll-em up DX then that is not a very good dollar for mile vehicle either, knowing that there are other cars available for only about $10K.
The HCH is about twice as expensive as the cheapest no-frills econo box out there, but you get what you pay for.
$21,850 vs. $17,310 Honda Civic Hybrid is best compared to Honda Civic LX automatic. It is most comparable in equipment to the Hybrid Civic. Difference in cost is $4540.
One would think that you would grow tired of spewing this misinformation over and over. misterme is the one spewing
Even if you do compare the better equipped EX automatic sedan at $19060 the difference is still $2790 based on MSRP and is greater than $3000 real world pricing.
$3K to 5K premium that gagrice quoted is ACCURATE.
The height of hypocrisy. Driving your Prius to the airport you help to save the planet up until the point you fire up your 767 and burn more petroleum than I'll use in a lifetime. Priceless.
Not to mention the windfall profit they just made. I wonder if congress will harrass them as they are trying to hassle the oil companies. Google made a much higher return on investment this year than Exxon.
One would think that you would grow tired of spewing this misinformation over and over.
I assume you are referring to my comment about Premiums over MSRP. I thought you were a reader of all things HCH on this board. Here are two examples of buyers being quoted $3k-$5k over MSRP for the 2006 HCH. I just checked the TMV for a 2006 Civic EX W/NAV and auto $20,814. The HCH with NAV has a TMV equal to the MSRP of $23,900. Tack a $3000 dealer addition and the difference is over $6,000 for the Civic EX. Unless you go to the dealer in Valencia, CA and pay $8000 more. Or you can go to Oklahoma where the dealers are not so greedy and have the hassle of licensing a new out of state car in CA.
I always deal with rural dealers. I got $500 of MSPR on my 06 Prius. I KNOW I got a great deal for a car that has tons of content and.... hmmmm...did I mention it can get 50mpg without even trying? Gotta love it!!!!!!!!!!!
OK just STOP on this attack on the supposed hypocrisy of the Google CEO. Here's why:
1. He is at least putting his money where the environment is. Giving employees $5000 as an incentive to buy a Prius is a genius of an idea, and a wonderful plan for the environment. Saying that he should pay people to ride their bikes is ridiculous - too many people live too far from work for that, and if they are going to own a car (which almost everyone DOES) they might as well be encouraged to buy one that is 80% cleaner than the average car.
2. Giving him grief because he rides a 767 - well, until they invent a HYBRID AIRPLANE that uses less fuel, then I guess people are stuck flying in the existing technology, are they not? CEOs, in case some of you have never had jobs, sometimes need to FLY to business meetings.
Nov. 8, 2005 (SmartPros) — The Internal Revenue Service has certified the model year 2006 Ford Escape Hybrid and the 2006 Mercury Mariner Hybrid vehicles as being eligible for the clean-burning fuel deduction
OSAKA - Hybrid technology is gaining acceptance faster than any automotive invention in recent memory. Far from being the latest short-lived automotive trend, experts (and Larsb) say the hybrid is here to stay."
Gary, this quote is for you. Time for a "mea culpa:"
"No one thinks hybrids are a fad anymore," said Dan Benjamin of API consulting. "The question is, how far will they progress into the mainstream?"
Toyota wants to see the hybrid move further into the mainstream. Right now a hybrid costs about $3,500 more than a gas-powered car. Toyota's goal is to cut that extra cost in half. "If Toyota can cut that to about $1,000 more, they will have mass-market technology," said Dan Sperling, director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at the University of California at Davis.
The price of the 2006 models, which go on sale in the US this month, is $22,265 (including destination charge), an increase of 2.1% over this past year.
Out of one side of the mouth Toyota says they want to cut the price of the hybrid technology. To show they are serious they raise the price 2.1%. Is that a cost cutting for them or the customer? I still say the HYBRID technology is a fad. The Prius is popular for several reasons. The Civic hybrid was practical until the new model sent the price too high. Those two cars account for 95% of all hybrids sold in the world. The other 5 current models are not setting any records for sales.
Great post Mirth !! Patrick Bedard really hit on some good things, and he's a respected industry writer. Maybe he can get people thinking the right way about hybrids and we can get some of the negativity behind us !!
Comments
The hybrid experts have been stating that price of hybrids will decrease as production increases. Especially Toyota hybrid prices as they are going to decrease the const of components by 50%.
Prices of Prius keep increasing. This does not support the "economy of scale" theory proposed by some participants.
As long as the manufacturers are making money on the hybrids, I'm happy.
It's not a "hybrid phenomenon" that new car models sometimes have MINOR price increases year-to-year. It happens on almost all popular cars, and it's just another way for the car maker to recoup some of the R&D money and increase their profits.
What "will become lower cost" over time, based on economy of scale principles, is the REPLACEMENT COST OF FAILING PARTS. When 750,000 Prius batteries are made per year versus 200,000, then Toyota will get a price break on the cost.
Looks like they may have a long wait. Toyota is suspending fleet sales to government agencies.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/10/toyota_temporar.html
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/total_us_hybrid.html#more
I think the truth about the real mileage of hybrid SUVs is starting to filter through to the public!
No, the REAL truth is that these SUVs outperform gas only models by A LOT if the driver uses the technology to it's fullest:
RX400h capable of consistent 25 MPG tanks
HiHy capable of consistent 30 MPG tanks
Escape capable of consistent 36 MPG tanks
The reason sales dropped for the Civic Hybrid is that it was a "lame duck" 2005 model selling, with everyone anticipating the arrival of the HCH-2 for 2006.
The reason sales dropped on the other models is because gas prices came down to more reasonable levels and people stopped "hurricane panicking" about trading in their gas-hog SUVs.
And they dropped because hundreds of thousands of people affected by hurricanes DID NOT PURCHASE new cars.
On the other hand maybe most of those interested in hybrids have bought. I can see a limited market for the Prius and new HCH. The rest are probably headed for obscurity. With the mandated ULSD in less than a year, MB will bring the diesel SUV that exceeded the RX400h in a cross country mileage contest. Jeep is gearing up even earlier to add diesel to all their lines. Then you will have "REAL" SUVs that get great mileage.
First of all, no one I know has money to burn and can "jump on the hybrid bandwagon." Unless you are living in a different USA than I am, Gary, MOST people are not rolling around on their mattresses in extra discretionary income.
Everyone I know buys the car they need or the car they like, and does not pay attention to anything else that anyone else is doing. I personally have never, and I know of no one in my family or my company or my circle of friends, who has bought ANY CAR, EVER, for any reason other than "I liked it" or "it fits my family well." I have never met nor heard of anyone who has bought a car because there is a bandwagon for that vehicle.
And you AGAIN have uttered the puzzling statement "maybe most of those interested in hybrids have bought." That is a totally confounding and utterly stupendously unrealistic statement. I thought we weaned you off that statement when we told you:
"That will happen when total Hybrid Sales for the year are ZERO worldwide."
Only at that point will "everyone who wants a hybrid" have one. And that will NEVER happen as long as every company you hear about is rushing to get a hybrid to market, and Toyota and Ford are pledging combined 750,000 hybrids as a 2010 sales goal.
What planet again are you from, Gary, that you think all this corporate planning and marketing and obvious success (almost 200,000 hybrids to be sold in USA this year) is anything but a solid, true market for hybrids?
And all this diesel talk is making me more nauseous than smelling it - diesels are YEARS AWAY from having a significant impact in the USA. Hybrids are on the way UP and will continue UP.
How does this work? Is each vehicle purchase from a civilian a separate public bid? Is the sales tax (that would not be paid for a direct govt. purchase) reimbursed?
Tire Pressure Monitoring System is STANDARD....WOW! Every 2006 passenger car is required to have it.
TPMS
Well stated and accurate. Hybrids should stand alone on their own merits as vehicles. I've stated here that fuel savings is WAY down the list of reasons for buying. It's a hook that catches attn but it's the vehicle that sells itself. It's either worth the money to some or it is not the same as is every other vehicle in the market.
The vehicles other than the Prius I believe have a major flaw which precludes them from being truly high volume vehicles like the Prius. Except the Civic which as stated above was a lame duck, the others are all Hybrids linked to V6's. They are performance vehicles; i.e. V6's w/ V8 power and good FE - IOW specialty vehicles.
The Prius OTOH is perfectly placed in that it's an efficient 4c with great features that appeal to upscale buyers. The new HCH may succeed also. It will be interesting to see if the buyers line up for the HSD Camry 4c in the same way they do for the Prius.
It's not a "hybrid phenomenon" that new car models sometimes have MINOR price increases year-to-year. It happens on almost all popular cars, and it's just another way for the car maker to recoup some of the R&D money and increase their profits.
Cost increases are not a "hybrid phenomenon", HIGH PRICES are a hybrid phenomenon.
It seems to me that you have said many times people are "DUMPING" their gas guzzler SUVs to buy hybrids. I think you may have been one of them. Did you get top dollar for your GM PU/SUV? I also remember a few articles that emphasized that same concept of trading a gas guzzler in on a hybrid.
AS far as zero sales, that will not happen until the manufacturer quits building the vehicle. The Insight, probably the best solo commuter car on the market, is not doing too well. Even the much hated Hummer2 is still selling, doing well in many markets. They still bring a 5 grand premium in Alaska. I do believe the shine is getting rubbed off the hybrids. Practical people buy practical cars. For most buyers the hybrids are not practical. I don't see the hybrid demographics changing in the near future. Especially when Honda and Toyota allow HUGE premiums to be tacked on to the hybrids. $3-5k over MSRP for a 2006 HCH. Only a crazy man would pay that kind of premium on a glorified econobox. The dealers are trying to get every penny of the tax credit and then some.
Oh, I am from the planet melmac, I foresee a big surge in diesel sales for the coming year. Don't get in a hurry to buy a new car. There may be a 70 MPG diesel Civic in your future.
quote
Yep, and lucky for the car manufacturers, THAT group of people who buy cars only for the practicality of the car is a "niche" and small group of buyers. Many cars that sell for a lot of profit for the dealers are FAR from "practical." You know that. Emotions play a huge role in car sales.
quote gagrice-"It seems to me that you have said many times people are "DUMPING" their gas guzzler SUVs to buy hybrids. I think you may have been one of them."-end quote
Yes, people are "Dumping" their SUVs for hybrids and smaller cars in some cases, but it's not a BAD or DUMB thing to do. What happens as the 10-year-long SUV craze wears down is that people begin to realize (what they might not have admitted a year ago) that "we have too much car - too big a payment, too big a fuel bill" and they look for something more reasonable and cheaper to drive. That's the people who are buying more hybrids as "replacement" cars for something larger.
( My personal case was that I went from a 7 person family to a 3 person family and realized I no longer needed an $878 per month payment on an Avalanche. )
quote gagrice-"there may be a 70 mpg Civic diesel in your future"-end quote
I certainly HOPE SO !! Give me a diesel/electric 5 passenger Civic that gets 70 MPG and I buy that puppy TODAY !!
quote gagrice-"the shine is getting rubbed off on the hybrids"-end quote
What shine? The mainstream media has done NOTHING to put a shine on the hybrids. I have only seen ONE hybrid story in two years that did not say what a terrible financial mistake it is to buy a hybrid. That's a SHINE? I'd hate to see the opposite of shine !!
But if those were the causes then how do you explain the Prius?
Did falling gas prices provoke interest in the Prius?
Did the hurricanes prevent people from purchasing a Prius?
It appears for the month of October hybrid SUVs are not as popular as a Prius!
Now I know one month does not make a trend, BUT if the sales figures continue showing sales growth of the Prius/new HCH and lacklustre growth in hybrid SUVs then we can fairly conclude that most consumers do not believe in Santa Claus or in that wonderful hypothetical world where most people achieve the following mileage:
RX400h capable of consistent 25 MPG tanks
HiHy capable of consistent 30 MPG tanks
Escape capable of consistent 36 MPG tanks
I agree with you completely about diesel SUVs! I think Honda made the right decsion in focusing their hybrid technology to cars and diesel technology to trucks!
Bottomline:
HCH and Prius are worthy fuel efficient vehicles
Hybrid SUVs are just not as good as diesel SUVs
In terms of dollars and sense I would find more fuel efficient value in something like a Honda Accord i4 manual or a simple basic vanilla Civic than any costly hybrid alternative.
HiHy capable of consistent 30 MPG tanks
Escape capable of consistent 36 MPG tanks
Not fantasy land at all. This is data from real owners.
Maybe not a [non-permissible content removed] but a Canadian who does not know IRS tax credit rules.
But what I am stating is that many real drivers do not achieve these results!
Not everyone has the right type of commute or the time to commit to learning the techniques, but for NOW, those high MPG hybrids are the best for good MPG and the cleanest cars we have.
Canadians purchase smaller cars and more fuel efficient cars compared to the US. Strange to see that hybrids are not popular there.
Why? Hybrids are not so popular without the government welfare tax incentive that is offered in the USA. Actually, some provinces do offer tax incentives for hybrid purchase and sales are still poor.
Toyota is advertising to Canadians Hybrid PR Canada
Lets assume ( not argue ) that the Prius and HCH get 48 mpg combined versus an ICE 4c CamCord which gets about 27 mpg combined;
The HH and RX400H get 25 mpg combined vs an ICE Highlander or Pilot which get about 19 mpg combined;
In driving 1000 miles -
- the Prius/HCH drivers will use 16 gal less than the ICE CamCord drivers
- the hybrid SUV drivers will use 13 gal less than the ICE drivers.
If the HH driver can nudge his usage up to 27 mpg combined like in Edmunds test... then he saves 16 gal/1000 mi driven just the same as the Prius/HCH.
With low mpg figures small differences make for relatively big percentage savings.
The V6+Hybrid works just as well as the small 4c+Hybrid couple it just costs a lot more and it's directed at a specific market which is relatively well off. It's why the RX400H was offered first to Lexus buyers. They can afford to 'drive cleaner' by choice.
Anyone know of any other government sponsored clean air program ( besides the hybrid tax incentive ) that will help put almost 500,000 CLEAN cars on USA roads in the years 2004-2006? If so, let me know - I want to contribute to the congressional campaign of any congressperson who sponsored such a HUGE success.
Also, re the Camry price increase being smaller than that of the Prius... the '06 Camry is an obsolete model that is being replaced in a few months, while the Prius is a hot seller and has large tax incentives available starting in January. No wonder its price increase is higher.
The best selling car in America is "obsolete" and the Prius is a "hot seller".
Time to send you to Reality 101.
has large tax incentives available starting in January. No wonder its price increase is higher
Toyota does not write US tax law.
Buy a vehicle and Google pays you $5000. Ride your bicycle to work and Google pays you ZERO.
On the road, Sergey Brin and Larry Page have owned environmentally friendly hybrid vehicles such as the Toyota Prius. In the air, they apparently prefer something roomier.
Google Inc.'s two billionaire founders, both 32 years old, will soon be cruising the skies in a Boeing 767 wide-body airliner. They bought the used plane earlier this year, Mr. Page says.Hypocrisy
The height of hypocrisy. Driving your Prius to the airport you help to save the planet up until the point you fire up your 767 and burn more petroleum than I'll use in a lifetime. Priceless.
Flash: Camry takes fourth out of four cars in MT's recent mid-sized car comparo.
Flash: Camry takes fourth out of four cars in C/D's recent mid-sized car comparo.
Flash: Camry takes third out of three cars in Edmunds.com's recent mid-sized car comparo.
Do you want me to quote the average number of days of cars in inventory for Toyota dealers for the Camry vs. the Prius, or is that enough Reality 101 for you?
The Camry is a lame duck. As you may or may not know it's production has already stopped and this version will never be built again. Reality 001
Do you have any idea why backy posted the comment about the tax incentive? Your reply shows no understanding.
it is generally accepted that hybrids get better mileage than gas only variants of the same vehicle. it's just that there are not too many of them and the purhase price is a lot higher.
even if it is a unique hybrid, depending on how many miles you drive, it may not work out to save money over some other choice.
"Honda and Toyota allow HUGE premiums to be tacked on to the hybrids. $3-5k over MSRP for a 2006 HCH. Only a crazy man would pay that kind of premium on a glorified econobox"
One would think that you would grow tired of spewing this misinformation over and over.
http://automobiles.honda.com/landing.asp
Shows a comparably equipped EX (Some options are not even available on the EX) costs around $500 less than the fully equipped (Less Nav on either) HCH.
If you want to quote the price of an all manual, roll-em up DX then that is not a very good dollar for mile vehicle either, knowing that there are other cars available for only about $10K.
The HCH is about twice as expensive as the cheapest no-frills econo box out there, but you get what you pay for.
Honda Civic Hybrid is best compared to Honda Civic LX automatic. It is most comparable in equipment to the Hybrid Civic. Difference in cost is $4540.
One would think that you would grow tired of spewing this misinformation over and over. misterme is the one spewing
Even if you do compare the better equipped EX automatic sedan at $19060 the difference is still $2790 based on MSRP and is greater than $3000 real world pricing.
$3K to 5K premium that gagrice quoted is ACCURATE.
Not to mention the windfall profit they just made. I wonder if congress will harrass them as they are trying to hassle the oil companies. Google made a much higher return on investment this year than Exxon.
I assume you are referring to my comment about Premiums over MSRP. I thought you were a reader of all things HCH on this board. Here are two examples of buyers being quoted $3k-$5k over MSRP for the 2006 HCH. I just checked the TMV for a 2006 Civic EX W/NAV and auto $20,814. The HCH with NAV has a TMV equal to the MSRP of $23,900. Tack a $3000 dealer addition and the difference is over $6,000 for the Civic EX. Unless you go to the dealer in Valencia, CA and pay $8000 more. Or you can go to Oklahoma where the dealers are not so greedy and have the hassle of licensing a new out of state car in CA.
waffle, "Honda Civic Hybrid: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" #59, 4 Nov 2005 11:14 pm
court, "Honda Civic Hybrid: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" #57, 3 Nov 2005 10:52 pm
1. He is at least putting his money where the environment is. Giving employees $5000 as an incentive to buy a Prius is a genius of an idea, and a wonderful plan for the environment. Saying that he should pay people to ride their bikes is ridiculous - too many people live too far from work for that, and if they are going to own a car (which almost everyone DOES) they might as well be encouraged to buy one that is 80% cleaner than the average car.
2. Giving him grief because he rides a 767 - well, until they invent a HYBRID AIRPLANE that uses less fuel, then I guess people are stuck flying in the existing technology, are they not? CEOs, in case some of you have never had jobs, sometimes need to FLY to business meetings.
Nov. 8, 2005 (SmartPros) — The Internal Revenue Service has certified the model year 2006 Ford Escape Hybrid and the 2006 Mercury Mariner Hybrid vehicles as being eligible for the clean-burning fuel deduction
OSAKA - Hybrid technology is gaining acceptance faster than any automotive invention in recent memory. Far from being the latest short-lived automotive trend, experts (and Larsb) say the hybrid is here to stay."
Gary, this quote is for you. Time for a "mea culpa:"
"No one thinks hybrids are a fad anymore," said Dan Benjamin of API consulting. "The question is, how far will they progress into the mainstream?"
HYBRIDS ARE NOT FADS!!!!! Gotta love it!!!
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=10260
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0511/09/F01-376145.htm
The price of the 2006 models, which go on sale in the US this month, is $22,265 (including destination charge), an increase of 2.1% over this past year.
Out of one side of the mouth Toyota says they want to cut the price of the hybrid technology. To show they are serious they raise the price 2.1%. Is that a cost cutting for them or the customer? I still say the HYBRID technology is a fad. The Prius is popular for several reasons. The Civic hybrid was practical until the new model sent the price too high. Those two cars account for 95% of all hybrids sold in the world. The other 5 current models are not setting any records for sales.