The HSD Camry is done and announced. Its the 4th step in the Hybrid strategy 1) Gen1 Prius ( foot in the water, see how the market reacts ) 2) Gen2 Prius - High Volume ( 100K+ ) pass veh 3) 400H and HH - High Performance Hybrid SUV 4) Camry '07 HSD - go for the heart of the US market with performance and economy. The Prius also continues with less performance but better economy to appeal to the 'ultra green' and technophiles. Step 5)... Tundra, Sienna, RAV, Scion, Yaris????
Camry MSRP's will be announced in Feb but .. 4c LE w/ S+C A/B and VSC+Trac is ~$22500 V6 LE w/ S+C A/B and VSC+ TRAC is ~$25300 4c HSD LE w/ S+C A/B and VSC/Trac ..?? $25500.. we'll see
Wait 'til the HSD goes mainstream next year in the Camry and you can get V6 power and no 'hybrid premium' but fuel economy like a Civic...
Who needs the power of a V6? I believe only ~ 20% of current Camry purchasers choose the V6 as it is? I could care less about 0 - 60 in 7.x seconds as I only need 0 - 60 in < 12 seconds. Give me a Camry XLE w/ HSD and a 52/45 city/ highway using an Atkinsonized and PZEV equipped 1.8 L out of the Corolla. That would more then suffice.
When is the last time someone drove their I4 Accord, Camry, Civic, Corolla, Focus, whatever at WOT from a stop light unless they were showing off and could give a damn about how much gas they used? I never have and I don’t think many hybrid purchasers would care to trade away a few seconds of ”I have 2.5 seconds better acceleration for all of 2.5 seconds” vs. a lifetime of much higher FE. Look around. The Prius I was a > 13 second car and you did not hear much in the way of performance complaints from those owners. The HCH-I is a 11.5 - 12.5 second car and you don’t hear complaints about that. The Prius II is a 10.5 second car and you don’t hear complaints about them. You see the press playing their games but you don’t see many owners bashing them The Insight is a 10.2 second car and you don’t hear much in the way performance complaints about them either. You do hear complaints about the HH and RXh FE because although they have better performance then their peers, their FE increase is relatively paltry until the driver learns to stay away from the ”Go pedal” by comparison. So much for that 0 - 60 in 7.x seconds non-sense.
The small hybrid’s vs. there peers show a nice jump in FE and this is what the average hybrid driver wants, not a 225 + HP 0 - 60 in less then 8 seconds performance unless there was no penalty. There is a penalty and because of this, 90% of today’s purchasers will gladly take the 9 - 10.5 second HSD equipped hybrid with outstanding FE vs. a middling increase and the 0 - 60 in less then 8 seconds each and every time! Although I think the AH is a great car, the FE increase over and above the I4 is definitely holding its sales to an absolute minimum. Honda of all people should have known better but IMA in a 4 equipped Accord w/out VCM wasn’t showing much promise. The Camry’s I4 w/ HSD will not have that problem if Toyota pushes the FE capability envelope as they did with the Prius II.
"Wouldn't that be just helping make the air less dirty? I mean, as far as I know, they don't actually clean the air If they do, heck.... sign me up for two."
What are you going to do with 2 new hybrids?
I do remember a post on one of the threads with a link showing that a PZEV vehicle did actually clean the air when driven in a smoggy area. According to the information provided it would emit less pollution from the tail pipe then was in the air that it was drawing into the engine. This was due to the extreme efficiency of the catalytic converters on a PZEV vehicle.
Haven't been able to find the post at this time though. Seems like searching isn't working properly at this time.
Wayne, Since I'm on my 4th 4c Camry since 1990, the first 3 with over 150K each on them and this one w/ 60K I couldnt agree with you more. As I posted earlier the 80% of 4c Camry owners will likely stay the same.. but sales and marketing is about increasing share. What if... this is directed to the GM, Ford, DC buyer who has never owned anything less than a V6 and thinks 4c engines run lawnmowers. These are conquest sales. Now you have 400000+ x 80% remain ICE 4c owners 400000+ x 20% might convert to 4c+HSD ( frees up V6 engine production for Av's, Sienna's, etc ) 100000 ? conquest sales who demand V6 power and like the economy
Now they've gone from 400000+ Camry's to 500000+ and almost all in the 2.4L 4c which give better production and efficiency.
Thre are nearly 500000 ( 80000 x 6 yrs ) V6 Camry owners that Toyota cannot 'diss and alienate so some Camry will have to continue as V6's.
This little HTML file shows that Priuses do the work of trees in the absorbption of CO2.
"Although the production of the Prius generates more CO2 released into the atmosphere than a gasoline car, the use of the Prius over a life cycle creates significantly less CO2 emissions. If you drive a Prius for 10 years or for a total of 100,000km, you will decrease CO2 release into the atmosphere by 7.5 tons. To put this into context, the Japanese cedar tree absorbs 14kg of CO2 annually, so you will do the annual workload of 536 trees."
If Toyota plays the Accord Hybrid card, they will not sell nearly as many Camry’s as they could have. If they do not significantly increase the FE over and above the Camry I4 vs. any type of performance aspiration, you will see that many more defectors heading towards Sonata’s, G6’s, and Fusions as just 3 lesser examples. The press has beaten the Prius II to death yet Toyota cannot keep them on the lot due to consumer demand because of one item. That being its FE! Do the market share math The Accord is a perfect example of why you do not want a small increase in FE and maintain or increase upon the V6’s performance vs. the much less expensive and better to equivalently equipped I4 to begin with. Actual V6 performance doesn’t sell that many V6’s today and if an HSD equipped Camry comes back at a paltry 37/35, vs. the 24/34 of today’s Camry I4 for $3 - 5,000 or more $’s, they have the AH on their hands with middling sales results at best. 52/45 for $3 - 5K or 37/35 for the same vs. the std. I4. The first one will fly off the lots just as the Prius II is doing today. The second will sell in far lesser numbers then the V6 does today. What kind of advertising can you do with a 37/35 vs. an AH that does 29/37 and will eat the Camry w/ HSD alive in the performance arena? If instead Toyota advertises the Camry w/ HSD as a 52/45 mpg based midsized sedan (this is almost a match to the 06 HCH-II!), now you have something to blow the world away with again.
$3K premium for an HSD equipped LE vs. the I4 equipped LE? Although I would love for that to be true, I will believe it only when I see it
From the Toyota literature it appears that the engine will be the 4cyl. If they followed what Honda did, you are definitely correct. Sales would NOT be wonderful. I guess in 6 months we'll see pricing and prior to that, some first drives from the Edmunds folks. Based on the new tax credits, anyone buying the Camry may be SOL with regards to getting a tax credit.
Toyota could add ~ 67 + HP worth of HSD to the 160 + HP I4 for V6 like performance and a small increase in city FE estimates but like you, I highly doubt they did something that stupid. Toyota has the I4 w/ HSD announcement on there home page so the I4 is a given. It is which I4 and how will they tune it that will make (absolutely shocking FE w/ average performance) or break (average FE with V6 like performance) the 06/07 Camry w/ HSD.
If Toyota could punch out a 52/45 EPA estimate from one, those 06 tax credits would not be half bad for her either
Are you aware that 2006 Camry MSRP begins at $19,855 and they are selling for under $18K? With automatic and ABS. Using your $25500 guesstimate that is a $7500 difference and I highly doubt Toyota will price the Camry hybrid so low.
There is an example of a Toyota non-hybrid vs. hybrid model that illustrates Toyota hybrid premium. Highlander 4x2 begins at $25405 and Highlander Hybrid 4x2 begins at $35,405. $10,000 difference for a hybrid.
Honda is also obtaining a large premium for Accord and Civic hybrid.
Ford has a $8900 real world premium on it's Escape hybrid.
No disagreement with either since I'm getting 33 mpg now ( 45000 m/yr ) on a 2.2L 2000 Camry. If the numbers ended up being 35 Hwy/45 City/40 Combined I for one would not be a buyer... I'd opt for the Prius. But I can see that for someone else who is now getting ~23-25 mpg Combined on their 'old tech' V6 saying "Hey that's 60% better than I'm getting now and I'm not giving up any performance".
:P We three might be 'hard sells' for Toyota .. but hey we are already customers. Growth demands finding new customers.
I dont know about the HAH sales but I agree that putting the IMA in the V6 seems to me to be a blunder. How fast do you want to go with your family inside? Unless youre alone and on the Autobahn it seems like too much for a middle market midsized auto. Honda's system is more performance oriented than FE. It would be a bad comparo for a HAH 4c to have to go up against the Camry HSD 4c. They have the same 2.4L ICE with the same performance so adding a hybrid boost to about 210 HP makes them still the same. But if the HAH only got EPA 29 city-37 hwy mpg for example they would seem way behind the HSD Camry at say EPA (?) 45 city-37 hwy. I dont think they could afford this comparo so they put the IMA in the V6 and made the HAH a super V6. Will it sell? It may sell to the relatively small numbers of performance enthusiasts but I think not to the mass market.
I think it's the 2nd oops Honda made in placing their hybrids. The Wash Post had an article last year when there were no Prius' on the DC lots ( surprise ) but across the street there were ~15 HCH largely being ignored. They attributed it to an attitude of 'it's just another Civic, so what' whereas the Prius ( like it or not ) is a statement. The FE on the HCH wasn't as striking either.
This may be solved in the new model with the 60 mpg combined and the new styling.. but will it overcome the 'it's still just another Civic'. I hope it succeeds and pushes 'Yota harder.
There will be no huge price increase for the Toyota Camry Hybrid. The proof is that they have already tipped their hand in saying they are putting the HSD system into the "low end" 4 cylinder Camry.
This is not going to be another Accord Hybrid mistake, putting the car overpriced and over equipped - this is going to be a non-souped, basic I4 Camry that just happens to have the HSD system in it.
Toyota has seen Honda's goof and will not repeat it. This is going to be a "high sales" Camry, something they will want to sell a lot of.
They have already told their Hybrid engineers to "cut hybrid component costs by half" so I'll bet the Camry Hybrid will show the first benefit of that effort.
Just Watch, then you can come tell me I was right later, when I am..... :shades:
I have a feeling that the I4 (I do hope it is the Atkinson cycle or else they're doomed) will have more content to make it more attractive. Otherwise it is a stupid move as Xcel pointed out. There will NOT be a $7.5k spread. If that's the case, tons will be sitting on the lot. Doubtful! UNLESS... we start seeing buck and a half gasoline.
We might see $1.75, likely will see as low as $1.90, but the days of $1.50 gas are over in the USA.
Last time Phoenix saw gas that low was January 2004, and the last time the USA average was that low was about the same time frame. That was almost 2 years ago !!
This may be solved in the new model with the 60 mpg combined and the new styling.. but will it overcome the 'it's still just another Civic'. I hope it succeeds and pushes 'Yota harder.
Since I sell a hundred or more Camry's a year .. I'll venture that I've got an idea what they sell for. You conveniently forgot the equipment I specified. Agreed ABS is standard and there are a LOT of basic Camry owners that buy the standard 4c model for UNDER $19000 after rebate. But ..these have NO keyless, NO pwr drivers seat, NO full spare, NO S+C A/B, NO VSC or Trac. These are a massive part of Camry sales and they will NOT ante up for any of these 'frills'. So the Hybrid might not be for them or similar Accord, Altima, Sonata owners.
But these frugal Camry owners are Toyota owners for LIFE. They are not the market that the HSD Camry is directed toward. The HSD is aimed at the 500000+ existing V6 Camry owners plus GM, Mazda, Ford, Mitsu, DC owners who want a V6 and they want say, 40 mpg FE. These are mostly 'conquest sales'; i.e. take them away from another manufacturer.
You have to compare the HSD Camry to the V6 Camry/ V6 ICE Accord / V6 Altima / V6 Fusion / Sebring, etc.
I might be off on the HSD premium but not by much I think. It could be $27000ish or just under the Avalon XL.
Highlander 4x2 begins at $25405 and Highlander Hybrid 4x2 begins at $35,405. $10,000 difference for a hybrid
Real world, in our showroom is an HH at $34800 while the 4x2 ICE V6 goes for ~$28000, similar equipment.( List $29600 )
Real world, in our showroom is an HH at $34800 while the 4x2 ICE V6 goes for ~$28000, similar equipment.( List $29600 )
My example was using MSRP. Using, real world what is available TODAY $23,498 for Highlander 2WD 3rd seat and $32,788 Highlander Hybrid 2WD which is a very reasonable $9290 difference.
here on edmunds.. I wont vouch for it since I've never driven one so it might be attainable like the hypermilers can attain 60+ in a Prius. I can get 50+ mpg all day long in a Prius if I drive enough without any special 'tricks'.
The problem in your analysis that is noone can buy a base model V6 2WD Highlander with NO options. The least expensive one is ~$28600 MSRP ( no S/R no floor mats, but normal options ) which for the 2006 now goes for around $25500-26000 at the lowest-priced Internet dealer on the E.Coast. If you went into a store and said you wanted a V6 2WD Highlander @ $23500 they'd show you a nice 2004 model with ~35K on it.
To get back on track you are missing the Camry point entirely. The comparison is not between the 4c ICE Camry and the 4c HSD Camry. It's between all the other V6's out there and the HSD Camry. The differential is only 2-3K, maybe.
The least expensive one is ~$28600 MSRP ( no S/R no floor mats, but normal options ) which for the 2006 now goes for around $25500-26000 at the lowest-priced Internet dealer on the E.Coast. If you went into a store and said you wanted a V6 2WD Highlander $23500 they'd show you a nice 2004 model with ~35K on it.
Used 2004 model.... ...at your store maybe.
Really? Are you sure? $23,995 V6 Highlander 2006 BRAND NEW stock number 3217287 at Carmax.
It is OBVIOUS that your information is incorrect. I just proved it. When your information of the present is incorrect, how can we believe your prediction of the future pricing?
The problem in your analysis that is noone can buy a base model V6 2WD Highlander with NO options. The least expensive one is ~$28600 MSRP
Oh I am well aware of the overpriced vehicles stuffed to the gills with options on dealer lots but are you saying you cannot order a v6 2wd Highlander for 23.5k without options?
Since I sell a hundred or more Camry's a year .. I'll venture that I've got an idea what they sell for. You conveniently forgot the equipment I specified. Agreed ABS is standard and there are a LOT of basic Camry owners that buy the standard 4c model for UNDER $19000 after rebate. But ..these have NO keyless, NO pwr drivers seat, NO full spare, NO S+C A/B, NO VSC or Trac
$17995 for new Camry 2006 automatic WITH NO REBATE. $19K after rebate.... :sick: Sells a hundred or more Camry's a year and does not know what they can be purchased for. Now I have to educate the salespeople. :surprise:
What is the price of a Camry Hybrid w/o frills? How much is a Highlander Hybrid w/o frills? How much is a Civic Hybrid w/o frills?
I did not "conveniently" leave out optional equipment, if you want to buy a hybrid you "conveniently" are forced to buy equipment that is optional on other versions of the same model, equipment that neither increases mpg nor decreases emissions.
Are hybrids about fuel economy and emissions? Or are they about force feeding equipment that is optional on other models to attempt to justify the premium?
Actually no you cannot.. well you can but it's nearly impossible tho.. all Highlanders are made in Japan and they are shipped to the States ( not sure abt Canada ) pretty standard. I have never seen a stripped down V6. Theoretically you can order anything but if it is unusual then you may have to wait 6-9 months and no dealer is going to put in a special order then discount the hell out of it.
IMHO, Prius is selling on "chicness"; either that or people are getting emotional on some kind of numerical quirk. The "jump" from 33mpg to 50mpg only translates to 1 gallon per 100 miles. For a person that drives 10-12k a year (15k a year would mean mostly highway driving where hybrids do not save much), that's only $20-30/mo, not nearly enough to cover the cost differential in buying or leasing.
HAH is not selling well because it is in a more sober market, and car looks exactly the same as a regular Accord, lacking the visual "chicness." Or that Accord buyers are better at arithmatics ;-)
I'm by no means against hybrids; IMHO, while the premium is still high, it has to sell one of the three: (1) chic statement car like the Prius, where owners would have bought a Mini Cooper or something, and don't bother grinding through the math. (2) on performance in a market segment that's usually occupied by V8's and SUV's; that's where a 30% gas savings can traslate into two or more gallons per hundred miles driven; At current price of $2.5/gal, it takes 20 gallons saved over every 1k miles every month to make the $5k price premium workable. (3) and perhaps the "near-zero premium" AWD angle, in lieu of the regular mechanical AWD. Or a combination of the three.
I prefer hybrid to diesel technology myself because of the NOx emission problem inherent with diesel. I just hope people get their minds out of the inverted mpg numbers (should be gallons-per-hundred miles like the rest of the world use, to better reflect how much it really costs to run a car) so that car makers can stop trying to run the mpg number sky high (it's diminishing return after about 33mpg). Instead I hope car makers can give us some kickass hybrid sporting machine with to-the-individual-wheel power distribution in response to road surface and grip measured in micro-seconds. For crying out loud, hybrid technology was first introduced to the racing world until it was banned for unfair advantage.
My example was using MSRP. Using, real world what is available TODAY $23,498 for Highlander 2WD 3rd seat ( slight oops that price is for a Base 4c 2WD )and $32,788 Highlander Hybrid 2WD which is a very reasonable $9290 difference
It's one vehicle .. if its there. It's called a loss leader, all retail stores have them. If the customer doesnt like this specific one then they must bump themselves up to something with more options. Supermarkets and department stores have perfected this for 50 years. It's why eggs and milk are in the far corner and they are often on sale. Notice then there are 2 Base V6's and then nearly all the rest are in the $25500 range and up. Basic retailing.
I know you are just frustrated but calm down brother.. it was only a comparison of the HSD to V6's.. nothing more... and I could be wrong.. hell they might surprise me and price it at $22K..LOL. I'd really feel dumb then fighting off all the buyers.
Then there's the "nav system premium" many people pay--$2000 or more sometimes. I don't think they could ever financially justify the cost of a nav system compared to buying some maps and printing directions from MapQuest et. al., but a lot of folks love those nav systems.
15k a year would mean mostly highway driving where hybrids do not save much), that's only $20-30/mo, not nearly enough to cover the cost differential in buying or leasing.
Youre correct in this. It's been shown many times that there are many more lower-priced vehicles that dont get quite the mileage the Prius does and cost a lot less to own per mile driven. However, none have the size, features and environmental benefit of the Prius either. It becomes a personal choice and it seems Toyota has tapped into a solid vein of buyers who were waiting for something like this.
And this astounds most skeptics.. price doesnt matter to these buyers. They could have bought a Lexus or Benz or Audi but they chose to spend their money on a Prius. The numbers of these buyers is a LOT bigger than anyone foresaw.
Regarding the new '07 Camry consider a new # 4) to your list : 4) There is little or no 'hybrid premium' vis-a-vis an ICE V6. and it has all the features, performance and size as any other car in its class but it might get 50% better FE.
And this astounds most skeptics.. price doesnt matter to these buyers. They could have bought a Lexus or Benz or Audi but they chose to spend their money on a Prius. The numbers of these buyers is a LOT bigger than anyone foresaw.
I've been saying all along that hybrid buyers are buying the hype of the technology, not trying to save money! This what the skeptics agree on, that price does not matter to hybrid buyers. If price did matter, and hybrids actually had to show a cost savings, hybrids would not be selling.
'Hype' implies that it's false or overstated. Maybe 'excitement' is a more valid term because there is excitement when people see it - or any other special vehicle ( GT and HHR are examples ). It's excitement that usually pulls the trigger on a buying decision.
The decision to purchase a Prius in this case has very little to do with cost savings.. that reason is WAY down the list of reasons to buy. You keep focusing on FE but the Prius is a one-of-a-kind vehicle in it's class and people want to own it. LOTS of people want to own it.. and it's for the same reason lots of people buy Audi's and Benz' - it suits them and it's their money.
You are correct on many counts. If the Prius didn't exist, I'd be driving a MUCH more expensive car. So..... the Prius DOES save me money!! I would probably be very interested in the new IS350.
quote moparbadlywrong-"This what the skeptics agree on, that price does not matter to hybrid buyers."-end quote
The "skeptics" are completely wrong. That statement MIGHT have been true for the first gen Insight and the first Gen Prius, which were for each company a "proof of concept" vehicle. People DID buy those cars with complete lack of care about the cost, because they wanted to try the technology and/or be green.
But NOW, TODAY, 2005, with all the hybrids available on the lot, there are just TOO MANY PEOPLE BUYING THEM for anyone to lump them together as one huge "we don't care about the cost" group. That's IMPOSSIBLE. There is going to be almost 200,000 hybrids sold in the USA this year. There is no possible way for ALL of those buyers to fall into ANY SINGLE "reason I bought this vehicle" group. Statistically impossible.
I personally did not buy my hybrid with a ridiculous "I dont care what it costs" mentality. I have a cubicle mate who is on his fourth Hybrid (Plus he leased an EV) and he has NEVER said in any of his purchases "I dont care what it costs I want it" but in fact in his case, he is a VERY GOOD negotiator, and he negotiated all his hybrids down to the lowest the dealer could possibly go.
In summary, a "blanket statement" that hybrid buyers do not think price matters is blatantly false.
"Fuel-efficient hybrids, meanwhile, continued to show solid gains. Sales of hybrid vehicles at Toyota more than doubled in October to nearly 14,000 — more than the number posted by the company's Lexus cars."
"James Muller, fleet manager, told Council's Legislative Oversight Committee, "Our analysis has shown that the maintenance costs of hybrids are practically equal to those of regular vehicles and that the hybrids' fuel costs are running approximately 35 percent lower."
Muller said the city was buying roughly 100 new vehicles each year, and he estimated that between 35 and 40 could be hybrids.
...if I came out with a way to improve the gas mileage on a car by 0.00000000001 miles per gallon, then created a huge advertising campaign that said "IMPROVES MILEAGE!!!!", wouldn't you, as the consumer, feel deceived even though what I said was technically true?
That's how I view Toyota's "you will live longer" line.
What is deceiving about it? It's TRUE, and it is a very GENERAL advertisement......
It's not a direct campaign, it's an indirect campaign which is trying to appeal to people's sensibilities, not their common sense.
Ads that say "Nike CrossWalkers, $45 now at P-Mart !!" is a direct ad. A product, a price, a retailer. Not all ads are like that, nor do they have to be.
What about the Subaru Tribeca TV ad which shows all the other SUVs turning to dust when the Tribeca drives past them? Is that a LITERAL ad? That also is appealing to people's sensibilities and not their common sense. Is that ad devious? No, and neither is the Toyota ad.
Just because an ad uses "projected results" in a general way does not make it deceiving.....
The problem people have is that it is false to say it cleans the air when you really mean: "It pollutes less than what I could have driven!" Skipping a trip is always your greenest option, but many people don't want to hear that.
Just buying a new car creates a lot of pollution from the manufacturing process, so I'm not sure you're doing the air a favor if you are already driving an efficient car and you buy a slightly more efficient one.
If you go back a few posts there has been data which shows that the Prius pollutes much LESS over its life even when the manufacturing process is factored in.
I understand. But the prius overall pollution rate per mile is still higher than the incremental rate for putting additional miles on a Honda Civic with functioning emissions controls so I wouldn't advocate taking all othe existing Civics off of the road to replace them with Prius.
You're missing the entire point. If I had a choice between a standard non hybrid Civic and a Prius, I'd put out LESS polution with the Prius. Why would you advocate taking Civics off the road?
Comments
1) Gen1 Prius ( foot in the water, see how the market reacts )
2) Gen2 Prius - High Volume ( 100K+ ) pass veh
3) 400H and HH - High Performance Hybrid SUV
4) Camry '07 HSD - go for the heart of the US market with performance and economy. The Prius also continues with less performance but better economy to appeal to the 'ultra green' and technophiles.
Step 5)... Tundra, Sienna, RAV, Scion, Yaris????
Camry MSRP's will be announced in Feb but ..
4c LE w/ S+C A/B and VSC+Trac is ~$22500
V6 LE w/ S+C A/B and VSC+ TRAC is ~$25300
4c HSD LE w/ S+C A/B and VSC/Trac ..?? $25500.. we'll see
nice stunt, aye?
Wait 'til the HSD goes mainstream next year in the Camry and you can get V6 power and no 'hybrid premium' but fuel economy like a Civic...
Who needs the power of a V6? I believe only ~ 20% of current Camry purchasers choose the V6 as it is? I could care less about 0 - 60 in 7.x seconds as I only need 0 - 60 in < 12 seconds. Give me a Camry XLE w/ HSD and a 52/45 city/ highway using an Atkinsonized and PZEV equipped 1.8 L out of the Corolla. That would more then suffice.
When is the last time someone drove their I4 Accord, Camry, Civic, Corolla, Focus, whatever at WOT from a stop light unless they were showing off and could give a damn about how much gas they used? I never have and I don’t think many hybrid purchasers would care to trade away a few seconds of ”I have 2.5 seconds better acceleration for all of 2.5 seconds” vs. a lifetime of much higher FE. Look around. The Prius I was a > 13 second car and you did not hear much in the way of performance complaints from those owners. The HCH-I is a 11.5 - 12.5 second car and you don’t hear complaints about that. The Prius II is a 10.5 second car and you don’t hear complaints about them. You see the press playing their games but you don’t see many owners bashing them The Insight is a 10.2 second car and you don’t hear much in the way performance complaints about them either. You do hear complaints about the HH and RXh FE because although they have better performance then their peers, their FE increase is relatively paltry until the driver learns to stay away from the ”Go pedal” by comparison. So much for that 0 - 60 in 7.x seconds non-sense.
The small hybrid’s vs. there peers show a nice jump in FE and this is what the average hybrid driver wants, not a 225 + HP 0 - 60 in less then 8 seconds performance unless there was no penalty. There is a penalty and because of this, 90% of today’s purchasers will gladly take the 9 - 10.5 second HSD equipped hybrid with outstanding FE vs. a middling increase and the 0 - 60 in less then 8 seconds each and every time! Although I think the AH is a great car, the FE increase over and above the I4 is definitely holding its sales to an absolute minimum. Honda of all people should have known better but IMA in a 4 equipped Accord w/out VCM wasn’t showing much promise. The Camry’s I4 w/ HSD will not have that problem if Toyota pushes the FE capability envelope as they did with the Prius II.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
What are you going to do with 2 new hybrids?
I do remember a post on one of the threads with a link showing that a PZEV vehicle did actually clean the air when driven in a smoggy area. According to the information provided it would emit less pollution from the tail pipe then was in the air that it was drawing into the engine. This was due to the extreme efficiency of the catalytic converters on a PZEV vehicle.
Haven't been able to find the post at this time though. Seems like searching isn't working properly at this time.
Since I'm on my 4th 4c Camry since 1990, the first 3 with over 150K each on them and this one w/ 60K I couldnt agree with you more. As I posted earlier the 80% of 4c Camry owners will likely stay the same.. but sales and marketing is about increasing share. What if... this is directed to the GM, Ford, DC buyer who has never owned anything less than a V6 and thinks 4c engines run lawnmowers. These are conquest sales. Now you have
400000+ x 80% remain ICE 4c owners
400000+ x 20% might convert to 4c+HSD ( frees up V6 engine production for Av's, Sienna's, etc )
100000 ? conquest sales who demand V6 power and like the economy
Now they've gone from 400000+ Camry's to 500000+ and almost all in the 2.4L 4c which give better production and efficiency.
Thre are nearly 500000 ( 80000 x 6 yrs ) V6 Camry owners that Toyota cannot 'diss and alienate so some Camry will have to continue as V6's.
This little HTML file shows that Priuses do the work of trees in the absorbption of CO2.
"Although the production of the Prius generates more CO2 released into the atmosphere than a gasoline car, the use of the Prius over a life cycle creates significantly less CO2 emissions. If you drive a Prius for 10 years or for a total of 100,000km, you will decrease CO2 release into the atmosphere by 7.5 tons. To put this into context, the Japanese cedar tree absorbs 14kg of CO2 annually, so you will do the annual workload of 536 trees."
If Toyota plays the Accord Hybrid card, they will not sell nearly as many Camry’s as they could have. If they do not significantly increase the FE over and above the Camry I4 vs. any type of performance aspiration, you will see that many more defectors heading towards Sonata’s, G6’s, and Fusions as just 3 lesser examples. The press has beaten the Prius II to death yet Toyota cannot keep them on the lot due to consumer demand because of one item. That being its FE! Do the market share math The Accord is a perfect example of why you do not want a small increase in FE and maintain or increase upon the V6’s performance vs. the much less expensive and better to equivalently equipped I4 to begin with. Actual V6 performance doesn’t sell that many V6’s today and if an HSD equipped Camry comes back at a paltry 37/35, vs. the 24/34 of today’s Camry I4 for $3 - 5,000 or more $’s, they have the AH on their hands with middling sales results at best. 52/45 for $3 - 5K or 37/35 for the same vs. the std. I4. The first one will fly off the lots just as the Prius II is doing today. The second will sell in far lesser numbers then the V6 does today. What kind of advertising can you do with a 37/35 vs. an AH that does 29/37 and will eat the Camry w/ HSD alive in the performance arena? If instead Toyota advertises the Camry w/ HSD as a 52/45 mpg based midsized sedan (this is almost a match to the 06 HCH-II!), now you have something to blow the world away with again.
$3K premium for an HSD equipped LE vs. the I4 equipped LE? Although I would love for that to be true, I will believe it only when I see it
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Toyota could add ~ 67 + HP worth of HSD to the 160 + HP I4 for V6 like performance and a small increase in city FE estimates but like you, I highly doubt they did something that stupid. Toyota has the I4 w/ HSD announcement on there home page so the I4 is a given. It is which I4 and how will they tune it that will make (absolutely shocking FE w/ average performance) or break (average FE with V6 like performance) the 06/07 Camry w/ HSD.
If Toyota could punch out a 52/45 EPA estimate from one, those 06 tax credits would not be half bad for her either
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Using your $25500 guesstimate that is a $7500 difference and I highly doubt Toyota will price the Camry hybrid so low.
There is an example of a Toyota non-hybrid vs. hybrid model that illustrates Toyota hybrid premium.
Highlander 4x2 begins at $25405 and Highlander Hybrid 4x2 begins at $35,405.
$10,000 difference for a hybrid.
Honda is also obtaining a large premium for Accord and Civic hybrid.
Ford has a $8900 real world premium on it's Escape hybrid.
:P We three might be 'hard sells' for Toyota .. but hey we are already customers. Growth demands finding new customers.
I dont know about the HAH sales but I agree that putting the IMA in the V6 seems to me to be a blunder. How fast do you want to go with your family inside? Unless youre alone and on the Autobahn it seems like too much for a middle market midsized auto. Honda's system is more performance oriented than FE. It would be a bad comparo for a HAH 4c to have to go up against the Camry HSD 4c. They have the same 2.4L ICE with the same performance so adding a hybrid boost to about 210 HP makes them still the same. But if the HAH only got EPA 29 city-37 hwy mpg for example they would seem way behind the HSD Camry at say EPA (?) 45 city-37 hwy. I dont think they could afford this comparo so they put the IMA in the V6 and made the HAH a super V6. Will it sell? It may sell to the relatively small numbers of performance enthusiasts but I think not to the mass market.
I think it's the 2nd oops Honda made in placing their hybrids. The Wash Post had an article last year when there were no Prius' on the DC lots ( surprise ) but across the street there were ~15 HCH largely being ignored. They attributed it to an attitude of 'it's just another Civic, so what' whereas the Prius ( like it or not ) is a statement. The FE on the HCH wasn't as striking either.
This may be solved in the new model with the 60 mpg combined and the new styling.. but will it overcome the 'it's still just another Civic'. I hope it succeeds and pushes 'Yota harder.
This is not going to be another Accord Hybrid mistake, putting the car overpriced and over equipped - this is going to be a non-souped, basic I4 Camry that just happens to have the HSD system in it.
Toyota has seen Honda's goof and will not repeat it. This is going to be a "high sales" Camry, something they will want to sell a lot of.
They have already told their Hybrid engineers to "cut hybrid component costs by half" so I'll bet the Camry Hybrid will show the first benefit of that effort.
Just Watch, then you can come tell me I was right later, when I am..... :shades:
Last time Phoenix saw gas that low was January 2004, and the last time the USA average was that low was about the same time frame. That was almost 2 years ago !!
60 mpg combined? Are you referring to the Honda?
But these frugal Camry owners are Toyota owners for LIFE. They are not the market that the HSD Camry is directed toward. The HSD is aimed at the 500000+ existing V6 Camry owners plus GM, Mazda, Ford, Mitsu, DC owners who want a V6 and they want say, 40 mpg FE. These are mostly 'conquest sales'; i.e. take them away from another manufacturer.
You have to compare the HSD Camry to the V6 Camry/ V6 ICE Accord / V6 Altima / V6 Fusion / Sebring, etc.
I might be off on the HSD premium but not by much I think. It could be $27000ish or just under the Avalon XL.
Highlander 4x2 begins at $25405 and Highlander Hybrid 4x2 begins at $35,405.
$10,000 difference for a hybrid
Real world, in our showroom is an HH at $34800 while the 4x2 ICE V6 goes for ~$28000, similar equipment.( List $29600 )
My example was using MSRP.
Using, real world what is available TODAY $23,498 for Highlander 2WD 3rd seat and $32,788 Highlander Hybrid 2WD which is a very reasonable $9290 difference.
To get back on track you are missing the Camry point entirely. The comparison is not between the 4c ICE Camry and the 4c HSD Camry. It's between all the other V6's out there and the HSD Camry. The differential is only 2-3K, maybe.
Used 2004 model....
Really? Are you sure? $23,995 V6 Highlander 2006 BRAND NEW stock number 3217287 at Carmax.
It is OBVIOUS that your information is incorrect. I just proved it. When your information of the present is incorrect, how can we believe your prediction of the future pricing?
Oh I am well aware of the overpriced vehicles stuffed to the gills with options on dealer lots but are you saying you cannot order a v6 2wd Highlander for 23.5k without options?
$17995 for new Camry 2006 automatic WITH NO REBATE. $19K after rebate.... :sick: Sells a hundred or more Camry's a year and does not know what they can be purchased for. Now I have to educate the salespeople. :surprise:
What is the price of a Camry Hybrid w/o frills? How much is a Highlander Hybrid w/o frills? How much is a Civic Hybrid w/o frills?
I did not "conveniently" leave out optional equipment, if you want to buy a hybrid you "conveniently" are forced to buy equipment that is optional on other versions of the same model, equipment that neither increases mpg nor decreases emissions.
Are hybrids about fuel economy and emissions? Or are they about force feeding equipment that is optional on other models to attempt to justify the premium?
A TCUV '04 with more options is a better buy.
HAH is not selling well because it is in a more sober market, and car looks exactly the same as a regular Accord, lacking the visual "chicness." Or that Accord buyers are better at arithmatics ;-)
I'm by no means against hybrids; IMHO, while the premium is still high, it has to sell one of the three:
(1) chic statement car like the Prius, where owners would have bought a Mini Cooper or something, and don't bother grinding through the math.
(2) on performance in a market segment that's usually occupied by V8's and SUV's; that's where a 30% gas savings can traslate into two or more gallons per hundred miles driven; At current price of $2.5/gal, it takes 20 gallons saved over every 1k miles every month to make the $5k price premium workable.
(3) and perhaps the "near-zero premium" AWD angle, in lieu of the regular mechanical AWD.
Or a combination of the three.
Using, real world what is available TODAY $23,498 for Highlander 2WD 3rd seat ( slight oops that price is for a Base 4c 2WD )and $32,788 Highlander Hybrid 2WD which is a very reasonable $9290 difference
It's one vehicle .. if its there. It's called a loss leader, all retail stores have them. If the customer doesnt like this specific one then they must bump themselves up to something with more options. Supermarkets and department stores have perfected this for 50 years. It's why eggs and milk are in the far corner and they are often on sale. Notice then there are 2 Base V6's and then nearly all the rest are in the $25500 range and up. Basic retailing.
I know you are just frustrated but calm down brother.. it was only a comparison of the HSD to V6's.. nothing more... and I could be wrong.. hell they might surprise me and price it at $22K..LOL. I'd really feel dumb then fighting off all the buyers.
Peace brother
Youre correct in this. It's been shown many times that there are many more lower-priced vehicles that dont get quite the mileage the Prius does and cost a lot less to own per mile driven. However, none have the size, features and environmental benefit of the Prius either. It becomes a personal choice and it seems Toyota has tapped into a solid vein of buyers who were waiting for something like this.
And this astounds most skeptics.. price doesnt matter to these buyers. They could have bought a Lexus or Benz or Audi but they chose to spend their money on a Prius. The numbers of these buyers is a LOT bigger than anyone foresaw.
Regarding the new '07 Camry consider a new # 4) to your list :
4) There is little or no 'hybrid premium' vis-a-vis an ICE V6. and it has all the features, performance and size as any other car in its class but it might get 50% better FE.
I've been saying all along that hybrid buyers are buying the hype of the technology, not trying to save money!
This what the skeptics agree on, that price does not matter to hybrid buyers. If price did matter, and hybrids actually had to show a cost savings, hybrids would not be selling.
The decision to purchase a Prius in this case has very little to do with cost savings.. that reason is WAY down the list of reasons to buy. You keep focusing on FE but the Prius is a one-of-a-kind vehicle in it's class and people want to own it. LOTS of people want to own it.. and it's for the same reason lots of people buy Audi's and Benz' - it suits them and it's their money.
The "skeptics" are completely wrong. That statement MIGHT have been true for the first gen Insight and the first Gen Prius, which were for each company a "proof of concept" vehicle. People DID buy those cars with complete lack of care about the cost, because they wanted to try the technology and/or be green.
But NOW, TODAY, 2005, with all the hybrids available on the lot, there are just TOO MANY PEOPLE BUYING THEM for anyone to lump them together as one huge "we don't care about the cost" group. That's IMPOSSIBLE. There is going to be almost 200,000 hybrids sold in the USA this year. There is no possible way for ALL of those buyers to fall into ANY SINGLE "reason I bought this vehicle" group. Statistically impossible.
I personally did not buy my hybrid with a ridiculous "I dont care what it costs" mentality. I have a cubicle mate who is on his fourth Hybrid (Plus he leased an EV) and he has NEVER said in any of his purchases "I dont care what it costs I want it" but in fact in his case, he is a VERY GOOD negotiator, and he negotiated all his hybrids down to the lowest the dealer could possibly go.
In summary, a "blanket statement" that hybrid buyers do not think price matters is blatantly false.
From this story:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-carsales2nov02,0,265601.story?coll=la-home-business
Boy, the Civic Hybrid took a hit in October - I guess people were waiting for the 2006. Only sold 231 HCHs, down from 2,266 last October.
I predict about 1,500 for November, assuming they can get them on the lot soon.
"James Muller, fleet manager, told Council's Legislative Oversight Committee, "Our analysis has shown that the maintenance costs of hybrids are practically equal to those of regular vehicles and that the hybrids' fuel costs are running approximately 35 percent lower."
Muller said the city was buying roughly 100 new vehicles each year, and he estimated that between 35 and 40 could be hybrids.
Not only that, but if you buy Toyota's advertising campaign, it'll make you live longer too! Wow, what a car!
That is true - certain humans will live longer if there are fewer carcinogens in the air. That is the point and that is indisputably true.
That's how I view Toyota's "you will live longer" line.
It's not a direct campaign, it's an indirect campaign which is trying to appeal to people's sensibilities, not their common sense.
Ads that say "Nike CrossWalkers, $45 now at P-Mart !!" is a direct ad. A product, a price, a retailer. Not all ads are like that, nor do they have to be.
What about the Subaru Tribeca TV ad which shows all the other SUVs turning to dust when the Tribeca drives past them? Is that a LITERAL ad? That also is appealing to people's sensibilities and not their common sense. Is that ad devious? No, and neither is the Toyota ad.
Just because an ad uses "projected results" in a general way does not make it deceiving.....
Just buying a new car creates a lot of pollution from the manufacturing process, so I'm not sure you're doing the air a favor if you are already driving an efficient car and you buy a slightly more efficient one.