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GM Unprofitable Hybrids
Toyota sees value in unprofitable hybrids too.
Nothing wrong with the Accord Hybrid IMHO. Darn nice ride, I sure would not mind having one. Increased HP and MPG at the same time has to be good.
http://the/
That is the hybrid story in a nutshell. It is good for the image. Toyota won that round of looking "green". Hybrids are taking advantage of the FAD mentality of the American people.
Notice all the Daimler Chrysler products? Yup... all in the crap column.
9 weeks for Zelda!!
That's never stopped them before. Earlier this year they gave the Honda Ridgeline an above average reliability rating before it even came out based on a few shared parts with Honda's other vehicles. And I want to know how they got enough responses to the say the Chevy Cobalt is unreliable. It was only out for two or three months before their survey went out.
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That very well may be. I do know the Japanese government also kicked in support for the hybrid R&D. Remember GM spent at least 1 billion dollars on the EV1 only to have the mandate recinded by the state of CA. I would be leary of getting into new technologies to satisfy a fickled bunch of environmentalists & legislators.
So far, Toyota has sold 470,000 hybrid vehicles.
At an average of US$ 25,000, it comes to
11,750,000,000 (11 .75 billion $).
A worthwhile return on 900 million $ investment.
I guess they will hit 500,000 mark by 2005/12/31.
Goodluck Toyota.
For 20 years I supplied the automakers with basic steel to make vehicles. The typical genesis of a vehicle is abt 10 years in advance of it's actual first delivery. The first Prius' came out in Japan in the late '90's so someone at Toyota started thinking about less fuel use back in the mid-late '80's. Why? And why at Toyota?
I think it has to do with the last gas crisis and I think the government of Japan was closely involved in planning to avoid a reoccurence. Japan has NO natural resources. Everything is imported; fuel, coal, iron ore, lumber, wood pulp. Long range thinking said that if there was another major gas crisis EVERYTHING in Japan would skyrocket. A big part of that equation is that using fuel for auto's is inefficient so how could the effect be lessened? Ev's and alternate sources have been investigated all over the world but I think Japan sees more urgency in finding a solution.
We are lucky(?) here in that we have major reserves of resources so there is less urgency to innovate. If gas drops back under $2/Gal the sales of big SUV's likely will go back to pre-summer levels and the pressure to innovate at the Big 3 may be off. But the risk will always be there.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/October_Sales_in_Deep_Freeze.S156.A9459.html
People must have started calculating the cost of gas over vehicle's lifetime.
If gas prices stay so high, people may go for smaller cars or just retain their older vehicles which may be giving better mileage.
Hopefully Hybrids should have sold well. Its high time for automakers to sell a hybrid without those extras, otherwise people may ignore the hybrids as well.
Very true. But, the picture is bigger than that. Toyota is making money hand over fist on their ICE vehicles. The best profits in the industry. They make several of the biggest, thirstiest hogs in the undustry. And they're gonna be building more and bigger of em in Texas in a year or two. They are literally floating in cash. So they can absorb some losses in order to gain an image - "The auto company that cares. Greener than the rest. Buy a Toyota and live longer and breathe easier." This is how they're presenting themselves. It works too cause the enviro-nuts, er, pardon the term here in the hybrid forum :>) - they leave Toyota alone. At least they always have until this recent small-potatoes ad by who was it,greenleaf or something. I dunno. But the attacks on Ford and GM are persistent, loud and from the big mouths - Sierra Club etc., from the terrorists - burning Ford dealerships, defacing Lincoln Navigators in people's driveways, etc. So Toyota, IMO, is buying image with these hybrids whether they're losing money or not.
You gotta consider the long term goal of Toyota, which is world domination in the car market. Death to GM and Ford is their goal. And you gotta think what effect that will have on you or your kids. Long term. Assuming you're American. (Or Canadian, where a lot of Fords are made.) Buying an American car (and I don't work for anything anyway related to them) assuming one comes close enough to meeting your needs, has an added benefit that the money, for the most part, stays here in America. If you want a roomy, capable clean good mileage hybrid - there's the Escape and the Mariner. They'll also take you places the Prius won't. Just a thought.
I'm sure saving fuel was an important part of the subsidy. They were also trying to meet their obligation to the Kyoto Treaty. The original Prius sold in Japan for $17k. the cost to build was double that figure. Japan subsidized much of the difference. They also did the same for the Insight. The US and Japanese auto makers developed hybrids at the same time. Only Toyota and Honda carried through to the market. Only time will tell if it was a smart move. The Clinton administration dumped a billion dollars of our money into the Big 3 effort. Not sure what we got.
In the U.S., the centerpiece of its effort to improve automotive efficiency was the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV), a $120 million a year, seven-year program launched in 1993.
In Japan, the centerpiece was the Popularization Plan, launched in 1994. Both programs focused on developing and commercializing a new type of automobile, the hybrid car. A hybrid car is propelled by both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine. Such a configuration promised to improve fuel efficiencies by 50-150 percent.
PNGV funds were available only to American companies. Recipients agreed to unveil a concept car by 2000, a preproduction prototype by 2004 and be in full production by 2010. All three, Ford, GM and DaimlerChrysler introduced concept cars in early 2000. And there development stopped. Why? Because the American car companies refused to commercialize a car they would initially lose money on, even if the losses would be temporary.
On the down side, many truck owners require their vehicles to tow or haul heavy loads over long distances. Hybrid battery power is nearly useless in that aspect. As a result, a pickup cannot scrimp on engine displacement without sacrificing towing performance, Hermance said. That hurts fuel economy, the main benefit of a hybrid.
Takimoto noted that long-distance towing stresses the durability of a hybrid system.
Toyota plans to sell 300,000 hybrid vehicles worldwide in 2006 and 1 million by 2010. To hit that number, selling a hybrid full-sized pickup and SUV is almost a necessity, Hermance said.
Added Press: "We are designing our vehicles with hybrids in mind from the start. It's more efficient that way. Tundra is prepared for that possibility."
Press said big trucks are Toyota's "biggest opportunity for growth."
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103441
I also dont discount that this might a misdirection play directed at the big 3.
The new Tundra is expected to debut in Jan at the Detroit auto show and then launch a year later. Upon launch, 'guess what' we solved all the problems, here is the Tundra SuperHybrid. A 5.5L linked to a super HSD system.
I'd say if the President of Toyota goes public in Frankfurt and says we are committed to this goal of hybridization:
A) he's checked with his engineers before opening his mouth and promising something they cant deliver;
As per the WSJ article a week or two ago there is also the possiblity that the final division in the type of hybrids in use will depend on the weight and use of the vehicle. Autos and car-based SUV's might use something like the Toyota/Ford model and heavier vehicles might use the less costly GM generator-on-a-truck model.
If Toyota can build a hybrid full size PU with a 5.5 L V8 that gets 21 city 28 highway it should be a winner. It will need 7500-9500 lb towing capacity to be competitive. If they use the light duty motor/generator components from the HH/RX400h it will be just another foo foo truck. They could accomplish the towing and mileage needed with a diesel V6. I don't believe the CVT is up to heavy hauling.
heavier vehicles might use the less costly GM generator-on-a-truck model.
It will be interesting to see if GM continues the hybrid truck program. They only built 300 for the consumer market here in CA. I don't think they have sold all of them. I could be one of the suckers. So far I like it.
Toyota has shown with the HH and Rx400H that linking the HSD with an existing ICE engine such as the 3.3L that performance is improved significantly. Subject to driving conditions and driver input the economy can be as much as 30% improved over a similar ICE only powerplant.
In 2006 Toyota will introduce the HSD Camry linked to the standard 2.4L engine. Using similar ratios as with the Prius and the HH one could expect the HSD Camry to attain performance similar to most V6's now with combined HP in the range of 200-220 and acceleration similar to existing ICE only V6's. Again subject to conditions and driver input the fuel economy could be in the range of the Corolla/Civic/Sentra.
But the 'hybrid premium'? What does everyone pay as a premium now for a V6 over a 4c? About $2000 up to $8000 is common depending on the features.
Who will buy it? Currently Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Hyundai sell in excess of 80% of their midsized vehicles as 4c ICE's. In the case of Toyota I saw a figure in an article that stated it was 84%, I thought it was higher. Those who opt for the V6 Camry choose to pay $2000+ additional for it. It may be that the present V6 buyer may continue to buy an ICE V6 out of tradition. However it may very well be that there is a large untapped market in the center of the midsized market that opts for something more modern, more fuel efficient and just as capable as their current V6. There are a number of vehicles on the verge of coming to market with this configuration. Honda is there now with the Accord but why not a 4c HAH, the Altima soon, the Sonata soon, Ford/L-M? soon
To attract a new segment of buyers one could see that the new HSD Camry for example, could have the most modern cutting edge features while the traditional ICE V6's like the Avalon, i35, RL have the well known comfort-based amenities.
Comments are welcome.
32.5 MPG @ 80 MPH under cruise
38 MPG @ 65 MPH under cruise
29.5 MPG city
28 MPG worst tank ever.
"Ford Hybrid Patrol, Alexandria PD to Pull Over and 'Cite' Fuel-Efficient Drivers with Free Gas Cards
WHAT: The Alexandria Police Department is teaming up with the "Ford Hybrid Patrol" to pull over fuel-efficient drivers at random in a customized Mercury Mariner Hybrid patrol SUV (complete with flashers and bullhorn). Drivers will be rewarded free gas cards.
It's part of Ford Motor Company's Washington, DC effort to promote fuel efficiency and explain the myths and realities of hybrid technology. David Cue, Ford Hybrid chief engineer, will accompany the officers and briefly give drivers tips about maximizing fuel economy. Cue will also give a fuel-economy clinic at the Alexandria PD for officers at roll call. The department purchased 180,884 gallons of fuel in the 2005 fiscal year, accumulating 1,716,637 miles patrolling the city's streets in its 183 patrol vehicles. With gas prices in the Washington-DC area averaging $2.48 (regular), the department's 2006 fiscal year fuel budget is projected to reach $1.5 million, a possible increase of more than $500,000 from last year.
The fuel-economy clinic will help officers improve their mpg in patrol cars, and give them insights into hybrid innovation as more governmental agencies in the U.S. are giving the fuel-saving hybrids a closer look."
I never claimed it was. However, take a look at the specs. It has almost the same interior capacities. The point is MPG for load carrying capability.
I will grant you the luxury of the RH and the third row seating...
I am afraid I don't understand how weighing more makes them get better MPG. They would perhaps be more efficient, but MPG is MPG...
If Alexandria truly believes in saving fuel they would replace the daily use cruisers with hybrids. Not going to see that in the news any time soon.
Hybrids are truly turning into one giant PR stunt.
Sweet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok let's approach this from two angles:
Firstly, not EVERY police vehicle is a "chase" vehicle which requires 140 MPH and 0-60 in 6 seconds acceleration. There are MANY police vehicles that are used for detectives, police chiefs, admin people, which all could be replaced with a Hybrid. Any police vehicle that is not a chase vehicle can be replaced by a hybrid.
Secondly, WHY do police vehicles need to be gas guzzling V8s? They don't, other than chase vehicles.
There are MANY police and fire and city agencies around the USA who are replacing gas guzzlers with Hybrids, and for good reason. They are perfect for that type of application. Anyone who drives a Crown Vic just as their "drive around car" as a public employee is wasting fuel and wasting tax dollars.
Many cities are already experiencing the fiduciary benefit of gas savings by incorporating hybrids into their fleets. The stories are numerous. And the agencies usually get good prices too - one city in the NorthEast USA got several Gen II Priuses for about $21,000 each.
So if you want your tax dollars spent wisely, then you need to promote Hybrids at city and state agencies, not try unsuccessfully to dispute their indisputable value. :shades:
.. some stunt
Especially out in CA, the land of the mandatory % of EV's. ROFL!
Ford could not supply hybrids to government fleets if they wanted to. quote Manufacturing Business Technology -Ford already faces a potential snag in its hybrid program. The primary supplier of a critical hybrid component—a transaxle that combines an electric motor with a computer-
controlled transmission—is part of Toyota's supplier group. Recently, that supplier got a large order for transaxles from Toyota, making it difficult to fill requests from anyone else.-end
There are not enough parts available.
Wait 'til the HSD goes mainstream next year in the Camry and you can get V6 power and no 'hybrid premium' but fuel economy like a Civic...
Or is the above comment another fortune tellers prediction?
quote-The reality, DeLorenzo said, is the total cost of ownership — including the extra upfront purchase cost and long-term maintenance — is still hard to justify for hybrids. Besides hybrids, he said, consumers could also consider the dozens of gasoline-powered vehicles that get good mileage without paying the extra cost of a hybrid.
“The hybrid is more of a political statement,” DeLorenzo said- -end
Exactly!
4,000 that's a huge chunk of the market.
3,000 Ford Escape Hybrids are in inventory, no waiting. That is nice, too bad the reason is poor demand.
It will be interesting to see what the Camry Hybrids ends up costing, and how their fuel economy compares to a V6 or I4 Camry. IF Toyota can build a hybrid Camry with the power of a V6 and better fuel economy than the I4, at the price of a V6, we'll know for sure Hybrids aren't just a PR move.
What I'd really like to see to prove hybrid viability is a hybrid large car, suitable for use as a taxi. With taxis being driven 50,000+ miles per year, mostly in stop-and-go city trafic, it seems like a logical place for hybrid systems to be highly effective. If Ford were to put a hybrid system in the Crown Victoria, It would make a lot of sense for taxi companies to buy the new cars, even if there is a $3,000 or more "hybrid premium" on them.
Nowadays, people are buying hybrids for MANY reasons other than political statements.
I personally bought it because it was the only 5 passenger car on the lot that could give me 50 MPG. I know several people who buy them for the gas mileage, and for the "coolness of the technology," and for the fact that they are indeed helping clean the air.
It would be a lot to swallow to spend that kind of money just to make a political statement. I imagine that like most other vehicle purchases, several different factors go into making the decision - hard to base such a large purchase decision on a single aspect.
kirstie_h
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Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
You can buy car A and put 10 tons of pollution in the air, OR you can buy Hybrid B and only put 4 tons of pollution in the air.
You have "cleaned the air" by helping make it less dirty. It's "cleaner than it would have been" because of your decision.
Just a matter of semantics.