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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    You never had to convince me! I am sure there will be people that will STILL dispute it, just like people still believe we never landed on the moon.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Bluewater says Toyota's hybrids aren't as efficient as their non-hybrid versions and questions why the automaker is fighting tougher standards on fuel economy and emissions.Toyota
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually as in most 'controversies' there's truth in both sides...And... some creative interpretations as well. Bluewater focuses on the Highlander which never was promoted as a major fuel saver.. it also conveniently ignores the Prius..

    And they are right about the fleet figures WAY back in 1985 when 'Yota had only one truck the 4c pickup and one SUV the V6 LandCrusher. But they also admit that now with 5 SUV's and two big trucks, both due to public demand, Toyota is still the industry leader. Bluewater is just prodding 'Yota to do more and correctly so. Life goes on.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Where is it previously posted? It is not posted here, I checked. :surprise: How you choose to waste your time is not my responsibility.

    You don't agree with the article?
    quote Free Press-
    Foremost, the group questions why Toyota's newest hybrids don't get much better fuel economy than their non-hybrid versions.
    The hybrid version of the Highlander got only 20.6 miles per gallon in a week-long test drive this year on a range of driving conditions by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan. The EPA rating shows the vehicle gets 33 m.p.g. city/28 m.p.g. highway in federal tests. The non-hybrid Highlander, meanwhile, was rated 19 m.p.g. city/25 m.p.g. highway by the EPA -- much closer to the actual results in the hybrid.
    Other journalists have found similar results, Bluewater notes in its ad, calling the Highlander and Lexus RX 400h "gas guzzlers with no better fuel economy than their non-hybrid versions."
    -end

    Other tests of Highlander have yielded higher mpg than 20.6.
    21.6mpg Highlander Hybrid Synergy Drive :sick:
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Getting 27mpg in a SUV is bad? Where ya been lately mon????
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    One of the points that Bluewater Network is making in the article is that a hybrid should obtain higher mpg than conventional version of same vehicle.
    Too often, this is not the case.
    quote from theautochannelWe averaged 23.8 mpg in the conventional Highlander; 21.6 in the hybrid.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote moparbad-"We averaged 23.8 mpg in the conventional Highlander; 21.6 in the hybrid."

    Oh yes, a real good test. I can find you 100 people who regularly average better than 25 MPG in their normal commute in a HH.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Agreed.... even Edmunds got 27 in their long term test of the RH. Pretty amazing for a 4000 lb non-aerodynamic vehicle. As to the hybrid cars, well high 40's ain't nothing to sneeze at.

    GO HYBRID BABY!!!
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Moparbad:

    Here is an FCD pic of an HH when driven for max FE in multiple RT segments here in the Midwest. This was w/ Eric Powers of About.com - Hybrid’s behind the wheel. The regular Highlander will never come close to that capability unless it was a one way segment down a mountain or off a cliff ;)

    Pulse and Glide in a brand new Toyota HH

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    NOW... that is IMPRESSIVE!!! Are you sure that's not a Prius MFD??? ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The Truth Shall Set You All Free:

    Is Toyota's hybrid marketing nothing less than a fraudulent attempt to take advantage of the gullible??

    http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/attackads24e_20051024.htm
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You need to drive one for a week. It will answer all your questions. Talk is cheap and speculation is worthless. Get out there, bud, and prove it to yourself one way or the other.

    I'll venture that the naysayers have not set foot in a Prius or HH for the main part and are only parrotting what they hear. You tell me how and where you'll drive for a week and I'll tell you what your results will be. Prius or HH?

    The article is a straw to grasp at for the negative-minded. But that's OK. On balance what Bluewater is doing is good and I applaud them. Push harder for a cleaner environment. Push hardest against the industry leader in fuel efficiency. If Toyota reacts then everyone else will follow.. mission accomplished.

    ( I can imagine now someone in Toyota City is saying something to the effect of 'Why dont we put the HSD in every damn 4c we've got and watch what happens to the CAFE numbers then?' ).

    Bluewater will react.. rightly... all automakers should stop making SUV's and trucks.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Herein lies the problem. The people that fear the technology the most get a rise out of posting negative commentary. Now that every major manufacturer wants IN, it makes it even more compelling.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'd like to see Bluewater put at least some of their resources and money into encouraging people to buy more fuel-efficient cars, rather than 300+ hp cars and big SUVs and trucks for commuting. If people start buying more fuel-efficient cars, Toyota and other automakers will build more of them and fewer gas-guzzlers. I don't fault Toyota for making the vehicles that people want to buy. That's the free enterprise system at work.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    This is the exact reason why other manufacturers are scrambling to get hybrids to market. I don't think anyone realized the overwhelming demand and acceptance of this technology. Ford has some great commercials now narrated by Mr. Ford CEO himself. They are bringing a number of hybrids to market within the next few years. From what I have been reading, the FEH has been very reliable and folks are quite pleased with their purchase.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    don't fault Toyota for making the vehicles that people want to buy.

    And Toyota is selling the image of fuel efficiecncy versus the reality of fuel efficiency!

    Most auto makers are tripping over themselves to develop hybrids not because they are fuel efficient but because consumers demand vehicles that at least appear to be fuel efficient. Whether they are fuel efficient is another matter, especially Toyota hybrid SUVs.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Toyota and Honda ( and even Ford with the Escape Hybrid ) have shown that hybrids are "not just for HIGH MPG cars."

    Hybridization which increases fuel efficiency of a gas-only model, but not necessarily by 10 MPG, is a STILL good thing.

    It reduces emissions and decreases fuel usage, EVEN if only a little bit in some cases.

    With the correct driving techniques, it has been shown that anyone can get 40+ MPG numbers in the Hybrid SUVs, under certain normal commute situations. That's not possible in their gas-only versions.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Toyota already offers the highest-mpg mid-sized car (Prius), one of the highest-mpg ICE mid-sized cars (Camry--with a hybrid next year), one of the highest if not the highest mpg compact (Corolla), plus other fuel-efficient cars like the ECHO/Yaris. I think I remember seeing that the Highlander (ICE) is the highest mpg SUV in its class also. And there are the two Toyota hybrid SUVs. So I don't follow your remark that Toyota is selling the image of fuel efficiency. They seem to be selling a lot of fuel-efficient cars.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Toyota already offers the highest-mpg mid-sized car (Prius), one of the highest-mpg ICE mid-sized cars (Camry--with a hybrid next year), one of the highest if not the highest mpg compact (Corolla), plus other fuel-efficient cars like the ECHO/Yaris.

    I dont disagree with you so far!

    BUT I disagree with your statement below:

    I think I remember seeing that the Highlander (ICE) is the highest mpg SUV in its class also. And there are the two Toyota hybrid SUVs. So I don't follow your remark that Toyota is selling the image of fuel efficiency. They seem to be selling a lot of fuel-efficient cars.

    Toyota hybrid SUV's fuel efficiency is primarily image versus reality! And it is not the hundreds of media accounts that has convinced me, but the personal experiences of my neighbor who owns a RX400H and a business associate who owns a HH. DISAPPOINTMENT would be a understatement!

    So when I combine what I read from the media and personally observe myself I cant help but think that Toyota's SUV hybrid claims are bogus!

    I am hoping that Bluewater's campaign will be as successful as Toyota's hybrid SUV marketing campaign! Except hopefully Bluewater's campaign will be a bit more truthful than Toyota's bogus claims!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Did you hear about the test done on a new Civic Hybrid vs a Ridgeline..
    - the Civic got 12 gal/mi and the Ridgeline got 19 mpg...

    Its in the way you do the test. Think about it.. ;)
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Bluewater's campaign will be as big as this . on the face of this page. No influence whatsover. Ask 1000 people if they know who bluewater is and maybe 5 will know. Toyota is truthful in their advertising because they can't advertise mileage claims other than the EPA. They've done what I believe is an admirable job of creating a 4000lb plus SUV that gets over 25mpg on the highway with ease. Edmunds average 27 or so in thei RH. Many participants in the HH and RH forum are happy with their purchases. To use two people as a statistical sampling is very foolish. You need a larger sample.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Honda's pursuit for fuel efficiency may leapfrog Toyota's!

    According to today's Wall Street Journal, Honda has developed an internal-combustion technology capable of making a hybrid Civic achieve 65 miles on a gallon of gasoline, 30% better than the 06 Civic hybrid.

    This internal combustion technology is called HCCI meaning homogenous charge compression ignition. It is expected that Honda will exhibit a prototype 4 cylinder HCCI sometime early 2006(in other words a few months)

    At least Honda leaves the marketing to its engineers!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You'll have to elucidate more on what your neighbor and business associate results actually were; where and how they drove and what they're expectaions were. BTW Toyota/Lexus never promoted the two as being super fuel efficient. All their literature, and I have it here, states is that a driver could get the power of a V8 with the fuel economy of a 4c from 3.3L V6. They were always promoted as high performance SUV's
    The V8 power is unquestioned
    The V6 is obvious
    The vehicle gets about the same combined mpg ratings as a Camry 4c.

    Perhaps the buyers thought they were going to get Prius numbers. That was never the intent. For more than a year Toyota's only statement was that a driver could get up to 600 mi on a tank of g as. Many people are close if not there. What's misleading?

    Recognize the Bluewater adv for what it is. A political statement to pressure the industry leader to be even more fuel efficient. Or in their extreme view... stop making SUV's and trucks. I happen to agree with the intent of the pressure tactic but you have to see it for what it really is. As you will note Bluewater never even mentions the Prius.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    To use two people as a statistical sampling is very foolish. You need a larger sample.

    FOOLISH?

    The hundreds of media reports support a statsitcial sampling that is beyond two people! The media covers experiences that are far beyond what is reported by forum members.

    And if the media supports your personal observations then that is even more persuasive , dont you think?

    Now what if the two people I know contradict everything that has been reported about hybrids? In that case it would be foolish for anyone to conclude anything from their experiences.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Congratulations to Honda for it's technology advancement. THEIR marketing dept did a good job of getting the concept into the WSJ. Good for their marketing dept.
    LOL...

    Cleaner is better we all breathe easier. See Bluewaters ad is woking already.. ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    OK, dewey. I know you are vehement about this subjcet... and you might be right..I will keep an open mind

    The hundreds of media reports support a statsitcial sampling that is beyond two people! The media covers experiences that are far beyond what is reported by forum members

    When you get past 201 in listing the 'hundreds of media reports' then I will move over to your position with no questions asked. LOL...

    No. 1...........

    enjoy ;)
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I go by what people are posting here, in greenhybrid and what edmunds has posted. I've also seen numerous pics of the MFD of proud hybrid SUV owners. Excel even posted a snapshot of an HH that got an incredible 47mpg in 21 miles. How do you like them apples?

    GO HYBRID!!!
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Tundra Hybrid
    excerpt -On the plus side, hybrid battery packs provide excellent low-end torque, which is good for stump-pulling and other quick-effort heavy lifting.

    On the down side, many truck owners require their vehicles to tow or haul heavy loads over long distances. Hybrid battery power is nearly useless in that aspect. As a result, a pickup cannot scrimp on engine displacement without sacrificing towing performance, Hermance said. That hurts fuel economy, the main benefit of a hybrid.-end
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    10/25/05 pag D6 of Wall Street Journal - Experimental HCCI Hybrid engine would deliver 30% better fuel economy than 2006 Civic Hybrid. Homogenous Charge Compression Ignition
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Thanks for the info...reading it now.

    ......

    Looks like it's a LONG way to reality. They can't get the engine to run smoothly at idle and at high speeds. Would be very interesting if it worked AND they had IMA. I look forward to its introduction. Sorry I can't post a link as there is a monetary subscription required for WSJ.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    That hurts fuel economy, the main benefit of a hybrid.-end

    Actually that's the public's misconception about hybrids. The Prius/HCH may have tained the waters for following vehicles. Note the derision lorded on the Silverado/Sierra Hybrid saving <5% on mpg ratings. The Hybrid concept may have other benefits still being developed at the truck makers. And in Heavy trucks and SUV's the applicatons may be very limited.. Time and R&D will tell.

    The recent article in the WSJ detailing the conflict worldwide between GM and its partners vs Toyota and its partners is a very good description of the differences in the application of the technology. It may end up that for heavy vehicles that the GM model is more appropriate while for cars and crossover vehicles the Toyota model is. Time and R&D will tell.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    I think Honda has figured out that heavy vehicles and hybrid technology don't mix too well:

    http://tinyurl.com/daa3t

    ... " Honda sells Accords with 2.2-liter, 4-cylinder turbodiesel engines in Europe. Fukui would not say what other diesel sizes are in development.

    Fukui has said that Honda could offer a V-6 diesel in North America.

    He predicts Honda will offer a range of high-mileage powertrains, depending on the vehicle's size.

    "Looking at Honda's lineup, for the smaller, more compact cars, it should be hybrids," he says. "But for the larger ones, it would be more towards environmentally friendly diesel."
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote stevedebi-"I think Honda has figured out that heavy vehicles and hybrid technology don't mix too well."-end quote

    Well, that's something they are going to have to "unfigure out" if they want to compete with Toyota and Ford, who together plan on selling 1.25 million Hybrids in 2010.

    You can bet your last canoli that there will be many V6 and even V8 Hybrid cars and SUVs available in 2010, from many different companies.

    Honda would be better off to stay their current course of saying "we can put IMA into any vehicle we build."
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Well, that's something they are going to have to "unfigure out" if they want to compete with Toyota and Ford,

    I am willing to wager that the most hottest hybrids in the future will be compact vehicles like the Prius and Civic.

    Unlike many forum members in Edmunds here who report HH and RH mileage that is consistently spectacular(I wonder why??) the rest of the world (which includes Honda) knows the truth about the fuel efficiency of hybrid SUVs!

    The advantages of diesel trucks has been proven for almost a century! And I am sure Honda will have some interesting future diesel technology up their sleeves.

    Oh yes what about diesel prices? I say temporary! Refinining capacity specifically for diesel is very limited but this is a temporary phenemona unless you assume perpectual 7/24 disasters.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I correct my last post. I meant heavy vehicles not trucks, since a Honda truck is a rare sight indeed!
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    The headline: Honda's Experimental Hybrid MAY (emphasis mine) Help in Race With Toyota.
    The article goes on to discuss homogeneous charge compression ignition, HCCI in which ignition in the gasoline engine is caused by compression rather than a spark. Like the diesel engine the problem has been achieving high rpm's. Quote:"Honda has been able to clear obstacles to create a prototype four-cylinder HCCI engine that runs smoothly in a low-to-medium speed range. That, they said, should represent about 65% of the load range necessary to run a gasoline engine properly on the highway"
    The article points out HCCI research is carried out by many manufacturers.
    To get back to power plants actually being produced commercially, the power plant in the GS450h.to be sold in Australia first and in the USA next Spring is rather remarkable. For more information see my posts in the Lexus GS450h subforum.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Your first statement could very well be true. I tend to lean that way also. However..you also stated..

    Unlike many forum members in Edmunds here who report HH and RH mileage that is consistently spectacular(I wonder why??) the rest of the world (which includes Honda) knows the truth about the fuel efficiency of hybrid SUVs!

    I'm not certain on what basis you are making this statement ( what's an RH?). On my '04 ICE Highlander I'm getting abt 21-22 mpg combined. On the HH forum most people say that they are getting 25-30 mpg combined. Hardly spectacular claims. This BTW is exactly what Toyota estimated 2 yrs ago.

    And what is it exactly that the rest of the world ( there you go again, everyone in the world? ) including Honda knows as they scramble to get hybrid vehicles into production. ( See Tokyo/Frankfort auto shows ). You have been let in on the fact that they know some secret about hybrids but they are expanding production as fast as they can anyway. Call the shareholders!!!!

    You do have the right to drive what you wish and pay the MidEast countries all the money you can as fast as you can. You can even mail them an additonal check each year if you don't think you pay enough. I choose not to. It's why our two countries are democracies. You support who you wish and I'll support who I wish. It's all good.

    Deisel if it's clean enough is likely the fuel of the future for large vehicles. All truck makers have deisel engines that are very efficient. 'Yota's is likely to be out with the new Tundra in 16 mo's. Nissan wont be far behind.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/hybrid_senate.html

    Senator Joe might have a good idea, but how would it be done logistically?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    On the HH forum most people say that they are getting 25-30 mpg combined.

    RH = RX400H

    "My wonder why statement?" relates to a question I cant answer myself! What I cannot answer is the discrepency between the disappointing results reported by the media (SUV hybrid owners claiming a fraction of EPA results) and the overwhelming number of forum members accomplishing and even beating EPA results?

    I realize that there are similar EPA-reality issues with compact hybrids and even non-hybrid vehicles, BUT based on all the information that I have so far it appears the EPA- Real mileage discrepencies are larger for Toyota hybrid SUVs!

    I think Honda is making a wise decision in avoiding the sale of heavy hybrid SUVs since there is just not good enough proof yet on the effectiveness of heavy hybrids!

    I cant think of a better fuel efficient car to own than a future HCCI Civic(65mpg---hopefully close to the real mileage accomplished by owners)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Connecticut Senator Joseph Lieberman thinks 10 percent of all the new cars sold in the U.S. ought to be hybrids within two years, no matter how much they cost and says he will introduce a bill that would the make the hybrid quota the law, in part to reduce global warming.

    You call dictatorship a good idea?? Government coercion on consumer choice is good? You are joking, right?

    What's that quote on Vermont License plates? Isnt it " Live Free or Die"?
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    CR in particular seems to always get LOW mileage in everything they test. Case in point is the Liberty diesel. CR claims 11-16 in their tests. Participants in the Liberty diesel forum are getting twice that amount with ease. It's very ease to cast doubt on the media because I see so many errors in their reports. I doubt the people here are fibbing. Can't you accept that people are getting an average in the high 20's in their SUV hybrids? Maybe you should take an extended test drive in one and see for yourself. I myself tested one and in five miles in an RH I averaged 22.3. Not bad since the test conditions weren't optimal. One more point. Having owned a 99RX I never reset the mileage over the life of my ownership. In 57k miles it averaged 19.3. Keep in mind that I normally drive 70-80 on the highway. If I had the RH my guess is that my average would be 25. Is it worth it to me? No. I would not buy a hybrid SUV. I WILL buy a Prius though.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I'm not saying anything about government coercion or anything like that. Government has mandated this type of thing before - CFCs out of products by xxxx date, DDT out of products by a certain date. This is more of a health issue like that than it is a "dictatorship" idea. Cleaner air, etc: heard of it?

    I'm saying "10% hybrids sold in the USA by 2007" is a without a doubt good idea.

    My question is, even if it was mandated ( which it of course will NOT be ), how would it be accomplished?

    My guess is that carmakers would not comply with this mandate so soon without spending hundreds of millions of dollars, collectively. So the Car Lobby would never let it pass Congress.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The simpletons in the media have fallen for a arithmatic trick. Increase from 20mpg to 25 mpg may sound like only a difference of 5mpg, the reality is that you save 1 gallon for every 100 miles driven. An increase from 40mpg to 50mpg on the other hand only saves 0.5 gallon for every 100 miles despite its numerical 10 increase in mpg. In order to save that same 1 gallon every 100 miles (as in the 20mpg ICE SUV), a light weight car starting at 40mpg in conventional ICE form would have to achieve 67mpg in hybrid form. A whopping 27mpg increase just to stay even with the 5mpg increase for the medium/heavy vehicles. You do the math, which one makes more economic sense to hybridize, heavy vehicles or light ones.
  • rx400hfanrx400hfan Member Posts: 13
    "So when I combine what I read from the media and personally observe myself I cant help but think that Toyota's SUV hybrid claims are bogus!"

    Well it really doesn't take much of an understanding of the laws of physics to realize that a vehicle with the power, size and weight of the Lexus RX400h can get much lower mileage than the EPA testing profile generates. It really doesn't matter in the slightest what you think is bogus because the EPA rating is not "Toyota's claim" it is the result of a particular test profile which Toyota does not choose or control.

    If someone's primary concern is gas mileage they shouldn't be looking at the RX400h they should be looking at the Prius. Being a computer programmer one of my primary interests was having a vehicle that is more computer than car.;) Right up there with that was having a vehicle that would haul 4 people & baggage in smooth quite spacious luxurious comfort, but it had to beat the system! I was not about to be another one of those single person vehicles getting less then 15 mpg due to the type of traffic and roads that make up the area I live in. For me the Lexus does beat the system.

    My driving consists mainly of short distances & rather low speeds with plenty of stops. None of my other vehicles have come close to EPA rating. My 02 Dodge Dakota 4x4 is showing 10.3 MPG on its current tank! :(
    Prior to driving the RX400h I used a 99 Neon which I inherited for a while, I was getting 22 to 23 MPG in a little uncomfortable POS that with auto trans. couldn't get out of it's own way when the AC was on!
    Now I am driving a vehicle at the opposite end of the spectrum and I've gotten 28.36 MPG over the last 1259 miles. To me that is beating the system!

    So you see it really doesn't matter what you think is bogus, my real world experience proves that I am doing what couldn't be done without a hybrid. I am driving a large heavy smooth running quite vehicle that doesn't waste gas while sitting at every traffic light and I am getting 25% better mileage then a small 4 cyl. in the same driving situation.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    discrepency between the disappointing results reported by the media

    You will have to give me some specific statements in the media for me to take this seriously. If it is the Bluewater ad then they are not the media they are a political pressure group that would like to do away with all big vehicles.

    The HH and Lexus 400H have hardly been discussed at all because most are just at the point of being broken in. The first one was only delivered around Apr 1. How did these 'hundreds of reports' as you mentioned come about. Did the first buyers in April/May drive them home and immediatley call a media outlet like Time/Newsweek/Car & Driver and say 'ah ha... just bought a $53K RX400H and it doesnt get 40 mpg in the first week? It only gets 22-24 I'm disappointed.'

    Some critical thinking, or less exageration, might be in order here dont you think?

    So when I combine what I read from the media and personally observe myself I cant help but think that Toyota's SUV hybrid claims are bogus!

    You might stick with what 'Yota originally stated 2 yrs ago. 'an SUV that will get up to 600 mi on a tank of gas.' It was never a guarantee and the EPA figures have always been suspect for all vehicles. They are govt figures not manufacturer figures.

    You can look up what Toyota said at the auto show when they intro'd the vehicle. I think you might be creating a false impression for yourself because you thought Toyota made some claim about fuel efficiency. They never did. The US Govt did. What Toyota did say in the internal docs was to stress the V8 power in a V6 with Camry-like mpg ratings. And that is all there is.

    I'm still waiting for you to change my mind though when you list the 'hundreds of media reports'... when you do then I will admit you are not exagerating and that you are correct.

    Peace brother
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    kdhspyder,

    I do not have filed away in my computer all the negative media I read about toyota hybrid shortfalls compared to EPA. When I do get news I can forward it here!

    But can you do me a favor? Can you reduce mySUV hybrid doubts with positive news from credible media sources about Toyota hybrids gas efficiency?

    Greatly appreciated!

    Peace brother!
This discussion has been closed.