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now this is getting personal!
My wife will be needing to replace her 83 300D Benz sometime in the future. Up to now her car has not yet self-destructed(at least not without the help of TNT)! The car has been in my family for 23 years and keeps going and going.... So there may be a future hybrid in her and my life assuming our Benz will break down sometime in our life-times.
Yes I am a BMW nut and my priority is performance/handling! Thankfully they do not have a hybrid BMW(at least not now) since the extra weight form hybrid system would kill off the handling dynamics that BMW are famous for!
You are absolutely right it does not matter at all what I think since I myself do not persnally own one. And I do apologize if I sounded a bit confrontational! There is nothing better then being a bit confrontational when starting a debate and maybe I was a bit too confrontational.
Let's start right here:
Edmunds Long Term test states at the end..
Now with just over 1,700 miles on the odometer, we're satisfied with our purchase, despite the long wait. The Lexus RX 400h drives surprisingly like the RX 330, which we've always liked, and our average fuel economy is commendable thus far at 27.5 miles per gallon. Sipping fuel in that fashion will undoubtedly make the RX 400h a favorite summer vacation vehicle, so be sure to check back in a few months to see just where this luxurious green SUV has taken us.
Current Odometer: 1,750
Best Fuel Economy: 31 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 24 mpg
Average Fuel Economy (over the life of the vehicle): 27.5 mpg
That was easy wasnt it?
You also might want to check w/ CR.
Peace.
Hybridizing heavy vehicles makes much more sense but the question still remains which approach is more effective for heavy vehicles: The Honda Approach(diesels) or the Toyota Approach(hybrids)?
Thanks for the guilt trip! I guess I will have to go for confessions this Sunday!
Ultimately the cleanest way to do this is fuel cell electric, and hybrids are a worthy step in the right direction, even without considering fuel saving advantages.
My question is, even if it was mandated ( which it of course will NOT be ), how would it be accomplished?
My guess is that carmakers would not comply with this mandate so soon without spending hundreds of millions of dollars, collectively. So the Car Lobby would never let it pass Congress.
This is why fanatics of any nature should not be allowed to pass laws. The old "this is great for me so everyone should be forced to accept it" mentality.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the sulfur in diesel the reason diesel vehicles don't have catalytic converters? A catalytic converter would greatly reduce NOx emissions.
It is not a catalytic converter, but is a similar device to fix NOx emissions. The european car companies are ready to bring vehicles to the US as soon as low sulfur becomes widely available and the emissions can be certified.
Sometimes you have to ignore comments in the hybrid forum; many people (both pro- and anti- hybrid) simply have no room for a different opinion.
Don't bet on it, those engines have been known to go over a million miles.
A benefit to about what, .0000001 percent of the world population? That's about how many people might be driving a "million mile car" as a commuter right now today...
And can you imagine the lifetime upkeep costs of a million mile car? 5 -10 rebuilt trannies, new seat covers at least once, 8 new windshields, 15 sets of tires, 8 new air compressors, 10 tune-ups, 330 oil changes, WHEW !!
Just joking, as the costs will average out whether you put 1 million miles on 1 car or 100,000 miles on 10 cars, but in reality, so very few people drive cars until they are million milers that it is really silly even to talk about that......:D
So far so good, except the radio antannae needs fixing!(not exactly a disaster)
I think used car listings can be a good reference in life expectancy. Here's a popular used car media- Auto Trader:
http://www.autotrader.com
Search for Used Volkswagen, all models, 1981-2005, Within any distance. (Nationwide)
152K is the highest mileage VW listed.
3 VW's with over 150K
13 VW's with over 100K
All the rest have under 100K.
Let's do the same search for Toyota:
312K is the highest mileage Toyota.
12 Toyota's with over 200K
EIGHTEEN PAGES of cars 100-200K miles.
How about Honda?
290K is the highest Honda mileage.
16 Hondas over 200K
SIXTEEN PAGES of cars 100-200K miles.
How about searching Dodge?
321K is the highest Dodge mileage.
20 Dodge's over 200K.
TWENTY ONE PAGES of Dodge's 100-200K miles.
How about Mercedes?
430K one Mercedes listed.
3 Mercedes over 300K
3 Mercedes 200-300K miles.
6 Pages in the 100-200K mile range.
Looks like Toyota, then Honda, then Dodge comes out well ahead with VW not even in the playing field. Mercedes had the highest mileage single vehicle but the number of vehicles with high mileage were drastically lower than the gasoline cars.
I didn't do any searches on other MFG's, but I think the result would be similar.
Everyone knows the terrible track record of VW but Mercedes is known for luxury and quality. I was surprised to see them beat out by even a Dodge.
I think I've proved my point, that the typical diesel autos don't last nearly as long as gasoline cars.
Diesel engines only last as long as the car.
As proof I tried (You can try too) to google and locate a non-rebuilt automotive diesel engine for sale with high miles. Googling the same for gasoline engines show the same too.
Just one eeny weeny minor problem with your stats!
What percentage of cars are diesels and what percentage of cars are gasoline in the USA?
Dont you think the outnumbered diesel cars have a bit of a disadvantage with the stats you have provided? In other words your stats do not prove a thing!
Now in Europe diesels are about 50 percent of vehicles sold. I am willing to wager a pretty penny or Euro that diesels predominantly overwhelm gasoline vehicles in terms of durability in that continent!
http://www.autoweb.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_page_order_int/- - - - - - - - - 4/article_id_int/756
http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan11e_20050811.htm
Other than Edmunds I have not found any media sources that can disprove my claims that the "EPA figure for Toyota SUV hybrids are bogus"!(Maybe I should invest 3 more google minutes of my time)
Is there anybody (including you Kdhspyder) who can assist me in finding any media news that supports the EPA mileage of SUV hybrids or the phenemonal mileage achieved by forum members?
Thanks !
I
You are joking right. Toyota, Honda & Ford will be lucky to sell 1% by the end of 2005. How are they going to get enough batteries for 10%?
I like Joe and he may be the only sane Senator on that side of the aisle. 10% hybrid by 2007 is total insanity. The carmakers can't build that many and even if they did they would not find that many buyers.
So do I. You should have started your study with vehicles 20 years old and older. See how well toyota held up the first 20 years they sold them here in the USA. You will get a different picture. Many more 40 year old VWs are on the road still than 40 year old Toyotas. Most of the old Toyotas are Land Cruisers that are modified with American engines and transmissions.
On balance I'd say the jury was still out with the verdict up in the air. thanks for the articles again.
Peace.
If the HSD Camry takes off and the RAV and or Sienna offer HSD options then Yota might get to 300K in two years.
It's a hope but it is a stretch.
Yes they are, if they happen to be driving a Ford Escape Hybrid. The HH/R$400 seem to average out at 26/25. This is all according to the mileage database at GH.
"Hybrid models turned in above-average results, despite their complex mechanical drivetrains. Hybrids use both gasoline engines and electric motors that run on batteries charged by the gasoline engine."
Best predicted reliability: (As calculated by Consumer Reports)
Small cars:
Toyota Echo
Honda Civic (2005)
Toyota Prius
Honda Civic Hybrid (2005)
Toyota Corolla
Subaru Impreza (non-turbo)
Sporty cars/Convertibles Coupes
Honda S2000
Mazda MX-5 Miata (2005)
Lexus SC430
Chevrolet Monte Carlo (2005)
Sedans
Lexus GS300/GS430*
Infiniti M35/M45*
Lexus IS300 (2005)
Honda Accord Hybrid*
Toyota Camry
Honda Accord 4-cyl.
Lexus LS430
Wagons
Toyota Matrix
Minivans
(None rated "Best")
Small SUVs
Toyota Rav4 (2005)
Honda CR-V
Honda Element
Subaru Forester
Mercury Mariner*
Mitsubishi Outlander
Mid-sized SUVs
Lexus RX400h (hybrid)*
Toyota Highlander
Toyota 4Runner (V-8)
Infiniti FX35
Large SUVs
Toyota Land Cruiser
Pick-up trucks
Honda Ridgeline
Toyota Tundra
Hey Gary - Toyota must pay CU the most money, huh?
Amazing that reliability is actually falling for some Toyota and other Japanese models.
quoteConsumer Reports' annual reliability survey, released Wednesday, challenges the belief that Japanese cars are generally made better than domestic vehicles.
"Asian nameplates still dominated the most-reliable list. Of the 31 cars that earned a top reliability rating, 29 were Japanese and two were domestic models. No European cars earned a top ranking."
"Only 3% of Toyota Prius owners reported problems with their cars."
"After five years, domestic cars tend to have twice as many problems as Asian brands"
Or a Honda CR-V LX (but without the hybrid batteries & etc.).
“With our kids living in Columbia, Florida and Wisconsin, it just made sense to take gas mileage into consideration,” said Janet Gerth. “Still it was pretty amazing, the first time I went to fill up the car, it only took six gallons of gas, and we had driven 480 miles.”
If she really got 80 MPG for her first tank, she belongs in the Hypermiler Hall Of Fame. :shades:
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20051- 024005879&newsLang=en
Getting a Hybrid Now as Easy as Getting a Cup of Coffee in San Diego; Flexcar Vehicles Are a 3-Minute Walk from Any Building in Downtown
SAN DIEGO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 24, 2005--With two dozen Honda Civic Hybrids parked within a 3-minute walk of every building in downtown San Diego and available for hourly use, getting a car is now as easy as getting a cup of coffee or cash from an ATM. This convenience will make it easier for residents, businesses and commuters to have access to a car when they need one, without the cost, hassles and expense of ownership. Flexcar, whose membership has also doubled in the past year, has doubled its fleet size and is offering a double incentive to join: free membership and free annual fee for those who join and drive before December 31st, 2005 (details are available on the company's website at www.flexcar.com/sandiego).
With San Diego having some of the highest insurance and gas prices and some of the worst congestion in the country, individuals and businesses are increasingly looking for ways to save on transportation, but not at the expense of convenience. With more than 20 cars in downtown San Diego, they're finding Flexcar can provide both convenient and cost-effective access to a vehicle without the cost and hassles of ownership. With its new concentration of vehicles in downtown, residents and workers are now never more than a 3 minute walk from the nearest Flexcar location. In keeping with its commitment to the environment, 100 percent of the new vehicles are Honda Civic Hybrids.
Same driver, same basic trips, the HH is really doing significantly better than the Windstar, but it has a bigger engine (windstar 3L 150HP, HH 3.3L Hybrid 268HP), is 300 lb heavier, more important the HH has much better handling, is much easier to drive and is overall a much better vehicle (ask me in a couple of years if it has been consistent with other Toyotas we've owned as far as low, low maintenance vs. the many failures (third transmission, new front end - not from an accident - and thousands of other repair costs for the Windstar), plus lower emissions and much better safety features). It is a little smaller, but the only reason my wife would go with the HH - which we traded in both the Windstar and her Corolla to buy - was to have something not so big since she hated the size and handling of the Windstar. The HH she's quite happy to have compromised on (though having one car instead of 2 gets interesting sometimes!). PS, mileage lower toward 26 mpg when she drives which is about 30% of the time. 2500 mil, we're still getting used it it.
These are real world for us, and everybody's driving world is different, but it is strange that a few writers have gotten rather significantly lower mileage than posters here and elsewhere. I certainly vouch for my numbers - they've been kept for years in the same little notebook - and I suspect others have the details too.
Compared to the Windstar or the standard Highlander, this is certainly a mileage winner. We never bought expecting a clear $ for $ return on the higher price for the hybrid, but we knew the mileage would be better, which still saves gas in real terms and if we keep this as long as our other vehicles we will indeed break even. But there are other considerations that made this a good choice. - John
9 weeks for Zelda!!!
The links will lead you to the entire article. Nothing is left out.
All you have to do is click on the link. You can do it. Just click on the link and you can have someone read the article to you.
And what do the naysayers have to do with hybrids? :confuse:
No more 4 cyl for 2006 in the Liberty? Are you sure about that?
2006 Liberty is offered with 2.8L 4 cyl.
Now that I've corrected your continual errors, back to the regulary scheduled program. Hybrids Save Money When Parked
quote- In October, Ford announced "a commitment to increase global hybrid production ten-fold, to approximately 250,000 units by 2010." The company said "more than half of the Ford, Lincoln and Mercury line-up will have hybrid capability." The Mercury Mariner hybrid will be released in fall 2006, and the Ford Escape hybrid SUV has been on the streets for a year. -end
Greenwashing