Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
The Future of Hybrid Technology
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
I agree, especially when you can get that kind of mileage with the diesel that is available in the big 3 trucks. Plus the much greater towing capacity. I don't see much advantage to hybrid trucks. I'm not sure of their motivation unless it is to meet the new CAFE truck standards.
H1 - Mild - Stop & Start
Chevy Silverado, Citroen C3
H2 - Partial - Motor supplementing Engine
Honda Civic / Accord
H3 - Full - Motor powering vehicle at low speed
Toyota Prius, Ford Escape
H4 - Plugin - Facility to charge from grid
H5 - Plugin/Bifuel - Facility to have 2 fuels like
Gasolene / Ethanol
Diesel / Biodiesel
Gasolene / LPG
combined with Plugin facility.
H6 - Plugin/FC - Fuel Cell along with Plugin.
All the hybrids made by Ford, Toyota, Honda are parallel.
Some people would rather see a serial hybrid (engine not connected to wheels), because they say it would be more efficient.
troy
These people may not understand pros and cons to the extent engineers do. Honda showcased a hybrid scooter prototype last year which has a dual hybrid set up... Series mode in cruising situations, and parallel mode in power demand situations. You can read about it here.
It is always about compromises.
Meanwhile the engine just sits there until you take your weekend trip to see grandma/grandpa -or- to visit the beach some ~200 miles a way. Then the engine turns on & charges the battery.
A serial hybrid provides the best of both worlds:
- clean EV power for daily commutes
- an engine that can provide unlimited range
.
Like I said, none of the current hybrids are serial (no connection between engine & wheels). They are parallel.
Troy
At this point, we don’t know what the fuel economy would be like with the generator behind the battery pack.
And yes, I too said there aren't any hybrid cars that are serial (diesel locomotives, and the Honda's Hybrid Scooter prototype are though).
Fuel economy would be irrelevant if you're driving around on pure EV every day.
Troy
First, a series hybrid requires that the electric drive provide the FULL power requirement of the vehicle, unlike the parallel hybrid where electric drive bears only part of the burden. This entails increased mass which requires more power which entails more mass .. etc. But, you might say that the ICE (and its requisite generator) can be smaller, and you'd be right. BUT, as the ICE/generator power output decreases, the battery capacity must increase - and batteries are even more massive and require more propulsive power which entails more mass, etc. But, you may say, transient power requirements can be addressed by capacitive storage which offers high power density (although low energy density), and again you'd be right, and this would reduce mass somewhat (but still more than a parallel hybrid), but you mentioned EV operation and utility grid charging. In fact, you suggest 100mile range on battery alone which is tantamount to asking the most abbitiuous EV yet produced to bear the ADDITIONAL burden of an ICE, generator, fuel system and other ancillaries. EV technology has yet to produce a practical vehicle due primarily to the low energy density and high cost of batteries, and you suggest further increases to vehicle mass and cost while increasing power requirements with the addition of the ICE et al!
Compromises abound in any design - there is NO free lunch! Consequently, one must decide what objectives are realistic to pursue. If your objective is to extract the highest efficiency from a petroleum fueled vehicle, the parallel hybrid is the most promising technology to date and may even approach economic justification in the forseeable future. EV technology has yet to approach a practical replacement for the ICE vehicle and cost remains in the twilight zone. To suggest adding more cost, mass, etc by adding series, plug-in hybid technology will not improve the picture. It's no coincidence that Chrysler has chosen their gargantuan Sprinter van as a platform for plug-in hybrid windmill flailing.
.
EV Motor = ~100 hp peak/25hp sustained does not weigh that much. Prius carries two of these.
Battery = ~50 miles would be about 200 pounds... probably the heaviest piece in the car...
Engine = ~30 hp... just large enough to charge the battery when empty
troy
PS. NiMH battery pack in Civic Hybrid weighs just 44 lb (20 kg).
"Prius is about 3000lbs. Eliminate the NIMH battery pack and transmission and halve the gasoline engine to save 500lbs."
"Add a 350lb NiMH battery pack for 50 miles of EV-only range and budget 150lbs toward a 100hp electric motor and you're done."
"Weight is the same. And you now have a TRUE hybrid with EV only capability & unlimited range."
troy
And there is no “true” or “false” hybrid. Just two ways to go about hybrid design: Serial or Parallel. Or, it can be a combination of both (as in the Honda Hybrid Scooter Prototype).
Take your guess why Honda engineers might have implemented series/parallel to co-exist in the hybrid system? Going with series only shouldn't have made a difference in any other way but improvement, correct?
Another way to show weight isn't a problem is to take an electric car (e.g. Rav4-EV), subtract half the batteries and add the 39hp TDI engine found in the Smart. It weighs 30 pounds and has more than enough power.
Now you have a Rav4 serial hybrid that can do 50 miles pure EV, weighs less, & has no distance limitation.
troy
"Toyota has just introduced the $43,000 RAV4 EV, the first compact sport utility vehicle for the retail market fueled by household current."
That one? That is not a serial hybrid, it's an EV.
Where is info on the "serial hybrid RAV4" that has no distance limitation? I cannot find anything on the web about such a car.
Why do you think Honda engineers incorporated serial AND parallel mode of operation in Hybrid Scooter prototype?
No wonder they had a hard time selling them. That is pricey for that car. Probably $15K in batteries. I wonder if a guy could find a good buy on a used one.
http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/ravev/rav4ev_0_home/
Culliganman(give a hybrid a break)
PS..Car&Driver, MotorTrend, Consumer's Report ETC.. They can't all be wrong!
Can you give me an example of a NiMH pack that has gone down in price? Every time I buy a new laptop battery they are more expensive. I think hybrid batteries will be the same. Someone just posted the price for a Prius battery at more than $5200. Hope you have something saved for a replacement or dump your car before the 100k miles is up.
.
LARS WROTE: That is not a serial hybrid, it's an EV.
.
Lars... where do I start? (rolls eyes) I explained in *clear english* that I was discussing a modified Rav4 EV to act like a Rav4 Serial Hybrid.
troy
Honda makes some dandy little gen sets that could be used to keep the batteries charged up on longer trips.
You can get an electric start 7000 watt unit for under 2 grand. It will run all day on 6 gallons of gas.
I don’t know about your laptop batteries but mine uses Li-ion batteries and they are expensive. Not so with NiMH. They are actually quite cheap and are much cheaper now than they used to be. I have a bunch of those at home.
That said, how do you come up with replacement cost of battery packs?
I know that as of a few months ago, Toyota was boasting as "never having replaced a Prius battery pack."
If you look at the price and parts sheet for the Prius you will see that the battery assembly is $4920 while each module is $259 each. That would be the least of my worries with a hybrid.
My first two laptops used Nicad, The next one was NiMH while the last two are Li-ion.
http://ozgrl.com/images/rearbo1.gif
troy
and so far, so there is no problem with those batteries even after a vehicle travelling for 200,000 miles.
However for another 7 years, this topic about batteries will continue, since that is the only point where the critics can talk about.
But definitely the battery tech has improved as the Prius-II uses only 28 modules compared to 38 in Prius-I and yet it gives the same amount of power.
No exaggeration, these look like Toyota parts and price sheets to me
For the Prius, there are $15,000 worth of parts related to the hybrid system alone:
$5,153.24 for the hybrid electric motor/generator
$4,920.39 for replacement battery
$668 for "relay assy, hybrid vehicle"
$1,250 for "computer, battery
$970 for "computer, hybrid control"
Plus many more. Check out the parts price sheets for the Prius:
http://ozgrl.com/images/engine9.gif
http://ozgrl.com/images/rearbo1.gif
http://ozgrl.com/images/interi7.gif
Not to mention the labor costs for any hybrid-related diagnosis and repair.
So now we have moved on from batteries to "hybrid system", which includes the entire drive train. This is why I called it an exaggeration in the first place.
How much do you think drivetrain in a $30K car costs to replace in its entirety?
$15,000 less than the same car that is a hybrid?
So I'd say there is a small incremental expense but nowhere near the $15K you're quoting.
That was directly off of the Toyota price sheets. It is not just a $4k battery & a $5k motor assembly. Much more than an ICE only vehicle.
US hybrid sales double in January
AWKnowledge (subscription), UK - 1 hour ago
By AWKnowledge staff writer (SN).
Hybrid sales in the US in January nearly doubled year-on-year, soaring 98.8% to 8,455 units.
Here is a different link to the same data:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/02/january_2005_hy.html
$4000 tops (about $1000 per system + labor).
If you expect me or anyone else to except "$15,000" you better PROVE it (a system-by-system breakdown), or keep silent.
troy
I looked at the price sheets from Toyota that were posted. They looked legitimate to me. Do you think someone would go to that much trouble to fake Toyota price sheets? Remember the Japanese mark replacement parts up a lot higher than US automakers.
Only if they are imported, as was the case with my 1988 Corolla GT-S. Unlike the 1988 Corolla sedan, GT-S parts were more expensive since they were imported and not readily available.
What about European makes? Are they cheaper than vehicles made in America?
I don't know, you tell me. This was about someone refuting the prices on the Toyota Prius parts list. I guess they find it hard to believe that a battery pack will cost about 5 grand to replace, or each battery module is $259. I have no problem believing those prices as I have had to deal with repairs on our Lexus. And I can tell you they are not as inexpensive to maintain as my Suburban. One of the reasons I hated my 1978 Honda Accord was the rip-off prices for parts.
That's insane. I could build a battery for cheaper than $5000. Do these price lists include labor?
troy
http://ozgrl.com/images/engine9.gif
http://ozgrl.com/images/rearbo1.gif
http://ozgrl.com/images/interi7.gif
I have no idea. Those price sheets were posted by someone else on another thread. I would think that proprietary information is not given out readily. As more people pass the warranty period I would think we will get more first hand pricing on all the hybrid repairs.
It is nothing more than sheer speculation to think a Hybrid battery will not last 150K-200K miles, or even longer. There are model year 1997 Prius 1 cars in Japan with 164K, 150K miles (hundreds of them) and we have not heard of vast numbers of battery failures. In fact, just a few months ago, Toyota had been boasting that they had NEVER replaced a Prius battery due to "old age" disease.
At a 200K point in a car's life, simple things start to break besides major components. Like window motors dying, seat fabric ripping, rubber insulation around the hood/trunk/windows corroding, etc.
The Honda systems are different in that ( at least in an HCH ) even if the battery DOES DIE, the car can function as a normal gasser, but will just lose MPG. So theoretically, if you are prepared to deal with the costs and headache of a a 200,000 mile car, you can deal with a car which gets only 35 MPG versus 45.
If you are one of the 1% of car buyers who want and attempt to try and keep a car for 200K+ miles, you go ahead and rule out Hybrids.
If you do so, that will be about 200K miles you COULD have saved a lot of gas and a lot of emissions, but instead you "worry warted" yourself to death about something we don't even know to be true.
And if it is just replacing batteries makes hybrid ownership an issue, don’t! Let them be there, after all at that age there are more things to worry about than gain a few mpg.
And since it's going hybrid, we can assume either someone is going to change those batteries or prematurely scrap the cars.
And believe it or not, people who are struggling do own and drive these cars which you dismiss as junk. There are millions and millions of cars on the road are probably not even worth $500. Iused to live in an urban neighborhood and it was no big deal for many people to have 1 registered plate and slap it on whatever "beater" vehicle they decided to drive that day. Maybe hybrids would be beneficial if they kept old-cars off the road?
You've missed my point. I was saying that you have to offset the price of the hybrid components by subtracting the prices of the parts that do not exist in the hybrid. In the case of Prius that would include at least the automatic transaxle, alternator, and starter.
Also given that eletric motors are much more reliable than mechanical contrivances like automatic transmissions, you have to factor in the likelyhood of replacement when you calculate the cost/benefit ratio.
Why is it that the generator, alternator, heater fan motor and starter are the first things to need replacing, after the battery on a conventional vehicle?
http://www.ferret.com.au/articles/3b/0c02ca3b.asp
.
Not true. My 320,000 mile Dodge Shadow still had its original electronics. It all worked flawlessly. What failed? The engine's valve broke off, and self-destructed the engine.
.
General Electric did a test with 6 Rav4 EVs using NiMH batteries. 5 are still functional at 120,000 miles. #6 was totaled in an accident.
Please note that these are 100% electric cars, and they put a lot of strain on the batteries, both undercharging & overcharging, but the batteries are still going strong after 120,000 miles!
.
In contrast, hybrids rarely use their battery... less than 1% of the power comes from the battery. Hybrids also don't undercharge or overcharge the battery, to avoid stress.
So, if a NiMH can survive 120,000 miles of extreme stress in a pure EV, it ought to last far, far longer in a hybrid. Longer than the engine!
I'd estimate 500,000 miles...and that's a conservative estimate.
troy