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Honda Accord Diesel????
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This will fade as soon as diesels become plentiful. VW diesels have the edge of being the only game in town. Once other car makes come out and offer similar fuel economy then I think the massive premium that is available on used VW diesels at present will level out to something more normal.
I really enjoyed my time in the 190hp accord. It's power is equal to my Camry and feels a lot more sporty, it doesnt float. It's no sports car a la 3 series, but its more of a drivers car then the Toyota.
I own TM stock because they make quality cars and lead in Hybrid technology I guess I'll have to buy some stock in HMC to hedge my bets with the diesels. Personally I'd rather own a diesel. Less complex than hybrids, can be run on biodiesel (if you can find it) and they offer better performance than gas in both speed and frugality. So you can have cake and eat it too.
I am very familiar with speculation, my job involves technical troubleshooting on site, so you have to think fast and come up with creative solutions.
Gas will not jump to $4-$5 per gallon overnight barring a meteor hitting the earth.
One more year and all the price gouging on diesel resale values will peter out. it's due to lack of competition that the VW diesel has done so well in resale. This is unlikely to continue in the years to come. By this I mean diesels commanding massive premiums in resale value. They may have a better resale price but it will not be the insane amounts it presently is.
The Era of gas is over, prices will go up to $5 per gallon but it will happen over time. The oil companies might get hit badly if the Dems get into office and change from Bush's pro oil company stance to a different view.
Time will tell
Well I would have a diesel in my garage if they made something. VW is not for me. I'm not jumping off that bridge again! :surprise:
I still think clean diesel is the way of the future but they need a sportier car than the land yacht Accord! Honestly if it were any bigger you would need a captain cap and a crew for it, maybe some bow and stern lines to dock it.
I appreciate big cars but I can't justify a huge car like that and it's not cheap either it's a well built car but huge! My wife couldn't drive it. Heck she couldn't drive the older models either, just too big.
I'd go for a Civic Diesel and if Honda won't make one someone else will other than VW and that will put a dent in both Honda and Toyota. They never did release the Civic Type R here. Why?! :confuse:
The demand has been enough that they could sell every single one they could import.
I've driven them overseas and they are tuned for the track. But back on topic someone needs to come out with a Civic/Fit or Scion sized diesel for those of us who want/need/like smaller cars with diesel engines. When gas hits $4+ a gallon then smaller more efficient cars will sell much better. I'd happily buy a diesel it for my wife if it had those awesome RS seats and a diesel engine!
Even without the diesel I will probably get her a 2009 Fit. But only if if has those seats! I won't buy one now because the seats in it are miserable for me as driver or passenger for long trips.
I'm not overlooking it and I will not compare the US to any other country as that isn't possible. Driving in Japan is radically different than driving in Canada and even the US or Europe. it's not Apples to Apples. I love canada but it's just not the same as the US although you do get screwed on prices up there as well as on taxes.
Gas is going up and yes when it does people scramble for economy cars, then the panic is over and they buy SUV's or trucks again.
I see a need for a family to have a minivan or an SUV. I've had all of the above since I had 3 kids. Now with them grown with kids of their own. I can enjoy smaller more economical cars if you can consider my WRX economical
We really do need an economical car in the family. My wife likes small good mileage cars. I get the old nudge nude wink wink, from her as she thinks a Mini Cooper S would be a great car for me to buy as the price is right and SHE would be able to drive it.
I don't see how I can justify a non AWD car but who knows I'm holding off until December and by then prices will be out.
Anyway gas is going up and i'd love a diesel, i just don't want it in a huge car. I told my wife if they make a MINI diesel for the US when we are car shopping, she can have one!
Just checking but RUG = Regular Unleaded Gas correct?
I don't want a huge car with a diesel but a smaller car like the Civic would be great.
But last i looked diesel has always cost more in my part of Mass than Premium! Diesel is more efficient but it would be nice if diesel cost as much as Regular, not higher than premium and that's at the discount station!
I'd still buy a diesel but not in a huge car or truck.
Diesel always have a premium over gassers, no doubt about that.
You can speak of 300,000 mile diesels all you want but if the vehicle around it is a 50,000 mile wrapping then the vehicle and the engine have a 50,000 life.
As to references to the reliability and durability of the hybrids ( drive system and wrapping ). The Prius is at the top of the list in CRs latest rankings, The Camry hybrid is very close to the top and the Highlander hybrid was the top-rated midsized crossover for the past 2 yrs ( new version about to debut ). This takes into account the entire package of wrapping and drive system.
I do think that Honda will be able to combine the two, wrapping and engine, into a very durable couple. I have no confidence that VW will be able to do so. It remains to be seen but I'd still put the new Jetta diesel at a 50,000 mi durability level. I'll give Honda credit based on past experience for a 200,000 mi durability level.
You are clearly SWAGGING here, not even close in my own experiences.
If Honda is truly able to deliver what is dreampt about, and keep prices the same (Honda prices are currently less than VW's) almost all the advantages would go to Honda! Indeed it would totally revolutionize Honda sales in the European market !!! ! Let me stress this has CLEARY NOT happened with either the Japanese Hybrids and more on topic, the Japanese DIESELS in Europe, with a MUCH longer lead time than here!!!!! (REALITY CHECK HERE!) Keep in mind we have amply demonstrated Europeans pay more for both Japanese & Euro models.
So for example in my side by side case, consumables (which Honda CLEARLY says they do not consider for the superlatives they have come to be known): they would have to quadtruple the quality and durability of those parts to hit the benchmarks you mention!!!! Sorry to say, it AIN'T happening on MY Honda!! (Indeed I probably should not say this but in comparison, I FLOG my VW compared to the Honda)
So what do you think of these chances? I got a sub par Civic made especially (sub par for me; and a highly durable customized VW made again especially (more durable) for me. Both did that because they knew I would be buying a "sample of both and living with them side by side. To boot they knew I would be writing about the quality differences on this thread!? (NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT, and NOT)
So as you say, you can swag about 2-5 year old 300,000 miles (diesels) substitute: Prius, Civic, Camry, Hybrids, all day long!! Let those 300,000 miles Hybrid owners talk about them!!
I have given references about 300,000 mile diesels- www.TDICLUB.com and you have not mentioned sites that talk about 2-10 year old hybrids that have 300,000 miles. You are clearly SWAGGING with not much back up; vs 300,000 miles referenced diesel realities.
..."When was the last time it was an engine in the car that was the issue? In modern cars, the last thing I expect to go out is the engine, it is the rest of the things that start to fall apart well before then."...
That was one of my points and I made it many posts ago.
In fairness I will say that most times it's not the engine but again unfortunately you must buy the rest of the vehicle along with the engine. Beyond 50,000 miles all VWs are subject to a continual assortment of ailments that just cost and cost and cost.
Put it this way, if Honda does cover all the stuff that wear out 2x as fast as the VW (in my case),(past 3 years/ 36,000 miles for the Honda and 4 years/50,000 miles for the VW Jetta) then they are at least making good on an "abnormality". Problem of course is Honda does NOT cover those things!! Just as VW does not. Both then are going through their normal wear cycles, given a set of driver/s. Dare I repeat the truth: Honda consumables are wearing 2x faster than VW's!!!!!
Just so I am being clear for example (your example of 50,000 miles) if a VW component is washed up at 50,000 miles, the Honda Civic component is washed up at 25,000 miles and below.
What does "notoriusly unreliable" equal in quantifiable terms?
Both Conumer Reports and JD Power rank reliablity using easily comparable problems per 100 vehicles.
The difference between the best and the worst is less than 2 probems per vehicle. :surprise: Hardly notorius.
So I take it the car has had absolutely NO maintenance whatsoever?
If some one with a diesel talked that way, you'd all laugh em off the planet.
Read the thread and you'll see he didn't even change the tranny fluid till he was past 300K.
..." Let those 300,000 miles Hybrid owners talk about them!!"...
..."I have given references about 300,000 mile diesels- www.TDICLUB.com and you have not mentioned sites that talk about 2-10 year old hybrids that have 300,000 miles. You are clearly SWAGGING with not much back up; vs 300,000 miles referenced diesel realities. "
The trash talk is essentially against diesels!!
I've not changed the tranny fluid either. The diesel sees 25,000 mile engine oil change intervals. First tire set change and alignment will probably happen between 110,000 miles and 120,000 miles.
Kinda sounds like trash talk and a dare to me-the caps lock is a dead give away.
So as I have said, if I told you I had 300,000 miles on my diesel (with no maintenance or references to it) and wrote like the guy did about his 300k plus hybrid with no details, you'd laugh me off the planet now would you not? So I said (told you) I am at 100,000 miles and you say/conclude I am over confident about diesels?????? Sounds like a dead give away that you are trying to start off and continue on the trash diesels' foot/footing and blame ME for trash talking!!?? If you are not, make it clear.
I drive a diesel at work. They're OK. Their main problems are smoke and when somebody sells you winter diesel that isn't. I don't know the specs for your diesel, but my mechanic says that replaceable cylinder liners are desirable if you want to get a ton of miles/hours out of a diesel engine.
..."but my mechanic says that replaceable cylinder liners are desirable if you want to get a ton of miles/hours out of a diesel engine."...
That is one of my questions (durability) about the Honda's iCTDI diesel. I have read those "critical areas" are aluminum.
So essentially I am swagging that it might be a real stretch to specify a 25,000 hour motor (IF it is EVEN specified that way) (50 mph*= 1M miles)into an Accord platform NOT designed for 500k to 1 M miles. This would mean that unless they come out and state these things (most likely NOT) we are 100,000, 200,000, 300,000 miles away from REAL WORLD data AFTER US market introduction, which is swagged at MY 2009.
Oh don't get me wrong I have nothing against the Canucks. My point is car markets are not directly comparable. England has totally different driving than even Scotland.
Go to any island country, Japan, Philippines, even to some extent Hawaii and those markets are different than Europe and German needs are different than England. The US has a lot of open highways and except for large cities is fairly spread out. Canadians pay more for their cars due to lower volume. They also get options and models that we in the US do not get.
Pay attention? yes. Directly compare? No.
I looked this up in the Urban dictionary. I thought it might be an Aussie or a Pommie term as I have more than a few friends that use similar language. But decided to check it out rather than send an email.
Is this some new popular California term I am just hearing about? It seems to be being use more and more, just curious.
No that is not accurate. The hesitation is against VW auto's, the packaging that wraps the VW diesel engine.
Note previously I mentioned that I'd expect the Honda packaging to prove very reliable, along of course with the diesel engine.
It is no way a knock on diesel technology of which Honda seems to have the latest and most elegant solution for the NADM. We shall see though.
On the other hand my ACCORD ran for over 100,000 miles not ever having single problem. My Camry ran 120,000 miles again without a problem and the person who bought it still has not had a problem after 180,000 miles. My Avalon which I am about to replace has 154,000 miles all without a single problem. The LEXUS LS430 has had one problem with the passenger side window coming unglued from its frame. Other then that one problem it has been trouble free for 80,000 miles.
The Germans were accostomed to building cars regardless of cost, especially the MBs and BMWs. But when Japan started to build high quality lux cars to compete with the German makes at a far lower price that is when the German quality started to decline and their decline has not stopped. You need not look further then Consumer's Reports to discover which brands are relatively trouble free and most reliable and which are not.
Just because a car maker places a longer warranty on their cars does not automatically mean they are better. Chrysler just came out with a lifetime warranty. Do you think that alone has increased the quality and reliability of Chrysler products? I think you know the answer to that one.
As for a Diesel in a Honda first off that engine will be produced in Europe and not by Honda. I am not sure but I think it is either made by VOLVO or a French car maker. Not sure but I do know that Honda will not be making the engine at the beginning. It appears that the Japanese have never been for developing a diesel for their cars.
As for the price of Japanese cars in Europe, the protectionist policies of the ECM have priced them out of the market so it is no wonder that they do not sell well in Europe. Here in the USA where we have little or no import fees on cars one can clearly see which cars sell the best in the worlds biggest car market. If the German car makers were as good as you say they are and if Hondas were as bad as you say they are then VWs and all the other German makes would dominate the car market here. THEY DO NOT!
Again even as if I say it, no one has directly addressed the 2x FASTER wear of the Civic machine than the VW. Not a peep about that costing MORE, other than "SURVEY SAID"!!!! (Japanese cars being better) Honda as well as Toyota are fairly well known to cheap out on things such as consumables: i.e., brake pads, rotors, alignments, and tires. So I do not know what that says about quality and cost to most folks. Hopefully I have been clear as to what I think. At the same time, if that is alright with folks that pay real money, to that extent, it is not my problem when they do. I am basically saying mine is not as durable as the Jetta. For some reason folks are denying that. So it might be easy to conclude that it does not matter much to a larger majority of folks who pay real money for cars, as long as they keep the " perceptions" alive and folks keep buying. So yes, I can reiterate folks are not addressing the side by side comparison, but it is also fairly obvious even to them, they are not addressing what I am REALLY saying.
What consumable parts are necessary to execute 500,000 miles? In the Jetta's case, the SWAG: 2.5/3 rotors/brake pad changes, 4/5 tire changes, 5 alignments, 20 engine oil and filter changes, 4/5 timing belt/water pump intervals, 2/3 suspension parts changes. Civics? Probably a min of 2x for most stuff. Of course the more normal that folks do is to buy 5 new cars in that same space of mileage.
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If a gas Pilot gets 20 mpg, no way a diesel would get 30-35 mpg. Diesel engines are typically 20-30% more efficient than gas. That would give a range of mpg from 24-27. To get 30 mpg would require a 50% increase in efficiency. Not gonna happen.
That could mean it might be offered on only one trim level (such as EX-L) and street price difference vs a well discounted gas Accord can never be recouped with gas savings.
If the diesel is produced in low volumes, it will be as hard or harder to buy than a Honda Fit.
If the MSRP is $2000 higher than a gas equivalent, but absolute best street price after negotiation of diesel is MSRP, VS $2000 below MSRP (in 2009) for best negotiated price for gas model, the net price difference is really $4000.
How long will it take to save $4000 worth of gas?
It will be the trim level that will dictate the price. With LX/LX-P trimmings, it might cost $22K-$24K. If leather, moon roof and the expensive stuff... it might top out at $27K before you add NAV (which will take it to $29K).
In hindsight, a $246. VW TDI premium, over VW gassers, while literally AGONIZED over by folks at the time, seems like a total no brainer, in light of the $4,000 (100k/30/50= 3333-2000=1333 gal *3=) fuel savings over 100,000 miles and up to 4,600 dollars higher resale value. Spend the $246.premium to save a min of 4k to a max of 8,600?
I'd expect our ( NADM ) Accord diesel to be right around 40 mpg Combined. So just like the hybrids let's do a small business analysis.
First just like the hybrids if the single most important factor in the purchase of a vehicle is keeping the total cost of driving ( purchase + fuel ) as low as possible, then buy a good USED Accord or buy a base model 4c or buy a new Civic. These will always be less expensive in total for the individual's budget. Nothing new here.
If however a buyer decides that he or she is looking for something new in the $28 - $35,000 range ( buyers often classify themselves by price range ) then the comparo between the EX-L and Diesel-L becomes valid.
2.4L ICE EX-L w/Navi.. $30000 @ 24 mpg Combined
2.2L Diesel-L w/Navi.. $32000( est ) @ 40 mpg Combined ( est )
Average fuel pricing begins at $3 and increases $.50 annualy for 10 yrs.
5 yr = $4.00 /gal
7 yr = $4.50 /gal
10 yr= $5.25 /gal
Fuel Cost: 2.4L ICE @ 24 mpg Combined
5 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 75000/24 ) * $4.00 = $12,500
7 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 90000/24 ) * $4.50 = $16,900
10 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 150000/24 ) * $5.25 = $32,800
Fuel Cost: 2.2L D @ 40 mpg Combined
5 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 75000/40 ) * $4.00 = $7,500
7 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 90000/40 ) * $4.50 = $10,100
10 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 150000/40 ) * $5.25 = $19,700
Total costs ( Purchase + Fuel ):
......... 2.4L ICE .... 2.2L D
5 yrs.... $42,500 ..... $39,500 ( $3000 savings )
7 yrs.... $46,900 ..... $42,100 ( $4800 savings )
10 yrs... $62,800 ..... $51,700 ( $11100 savings )
Resales at 5 and 7 yrs to be determined
People are not going to being paying MSRP for a 2009 2.4 ICE. The gas Accords will commonly be heavily discounted in a year from now.
If Honda has production constraints and only ships a few hundred Accord diesels per month nationwide in 2009, many dealers will be selling them with added markup and it will take an effort to find one being sold without markup.
Right, that is why I went to a few comparisons (VW,$246/MB,$1,000 not many more sell passenger diesels) . A 9,000 dollar premium might work in a vacuum, but even a much more costly vehicle has a lower premium than what you mentioned/ are swagging. Indeed if KDhSpyder's math is correct, it would make NO economic sense to get a Honda Accord diesel with a 9,000 premium. Indeed I would not buy it. I have also NOT made it a secret that I like diesels!
So truly it is NOT "a toss around at will" sort of issue. It is more of a price it right or get ground up or even DIE!! sort of issue and for multi millions! Again I point to a lesser premiumed-Honda Civic Hybrid. It does make sense if like a Prius, it is bought by folks to make their "STATEMENT" or status, etc. etc. But as Honda discovered, not many folks chose to make their statements with the Civic Hybrid. So for example when considering a 2004 Prius (sort of a redesigned one off category) the (at the time 15.4k) premium over a Honda Civic/Corolla made not much sense for a plain everyday commute. Indeed I could buy another Civic/Corolla for the premium.
The formula to create the vacuum came from your book. You never shy away from comparing Civic Hybrid to the basic Civic, so why change it now?