You heard it here [first]. My prediction for $3.00 per gallon gasoline, has pretty much soured me on the notion of V8's especially the 4.2 V8's which, although sweeeeeeet sounding and driving are thirsty, thirsty, thirsty.
The 3.2 FSI which will certainly grow in potency (as in I be an impotent person, yuk yuk, I crack myself up) over the next few years and they claim it will also grow in economy.
The 3.2 in a ever so slightly longer wheelbase version of the A4 will be a fine sheen indeed for those of us who have four legged "children" (2 Shelties 13 and 20 pounds respectively).
My two trips to Europe this year gave me, after all, even great appreciation for the Audi A3 -- that, however, will just not do, for Pete's sake, I at least want more than a vestigial back seat.
So now that we know the 2005.5 A4 is going to have all the options available like the 2005 A6, are they planning on building a 2006 A4 that would be different than the 2005.5?
Or, if there are no changes at all, maybe they would include more options as standard on the 2006 A4 vs. charging people for those options on the 2005.5 A4.
I guess my questions is, what is going to be the difference? Months ago we heard there would be a difference and it seems they decided to offer all of that earlier.
The combination of the new A4 features and the 3.2 and DSG might interest me. As several have mentioned, the A4 looks like it may provide much of the A6 driving experience, at a reduced cost, for those without an absolute requirement for regularly transporting more than 2 full size humans.
But: The TT 3.2 DSG tested by Road & Track in their May issue achieved 0 – 60 in 6.3 sec. And the quarter in 14.7 @ 96. Not bad numbers, but . . .
The weight quoted is 3680 – possibly similar to the new A4 3.2?
But the gearing looks pretty aggressively biased toward acceleration – with 2600 rpm at 60 mpg in 6th gear. That’s about 600 rpm (30%) more than I’d personally like to see, in terms of long term enjoyment of low engine noise and reasonable cruising MPG. Not that the 3.2 wouldn’t probably turn 3500 rpm+ quite happily all day – I’d just rather not listen to it or feed it. Just one of my biases.
The final drive is actually listed as 2 ratios: 4.06 : 1 in 1 – 4 and 3.32 : 1 in 5 and 6. Huh?
And my reading of currently published information suggests that the DSG will NOT be available on the new A4 – at least initially. Seems odd to me not to showcase their new trans. technology in their new A4 . . .
So – my stupid questions are:
One – is the weight of the new A4 3.2 anticipated to be in the same range as the TT tested by R&T? I see the 2005 A4 3.0 Q Tip listed on audiusa.com as less - 3550.
Two – is the ratio spread of the 6 speed Tip similar to the DSG – implying similar acceleration, other things being roughly equal? I can’t immediately lay my hands on a list of the 6 speed Tip ratios. Audiusa.com does not seem to include this in their specification sections.
Three – what is the final drive expected to be in the A4 3.2 Tip?
Thanks, - Ray Hoping to test drive a 2005.5 A4 3.2 tip sometime . . .
Most, if not all, MANUAL transmission Audis of late have BOTH 5th and 6th gear "overdriven." I do not know if this applies to the tip and DSG versions.
FWIW.
And although I understand that y'all don't think or act or spend like me, I wonder why anyone would buy anything but a stick and Ultra Sport in the A4 (3.2).
There is a clarification of the (apparently) 2006 A4 here on the web (look it up) with pictures and a description that claims the FALL of 2005 A4's will offer a "true" (badged and all) S-Line version of the A4, ostensibly replacing the ever popular Ultra Sport designation (which, as far as I can tell, NEVER made it to the on-line AUDIUSA configurator).
This apparently (key weasel word) means that the 2005.5 and the 2006 chassis for the A4 are, if NOT identical, very very similar.
As I noted, the A4 with all the lux options, Ultra sport and a 6speed manual (or DSG if only one would be offered) ought to give the A6 a run for its money for those of us, as noted, who generally drive solo, sometimes have one passenger (and two small dogs) and rarely attempt to carry 3 passengers for less than 30 minutes.
In a crowded driving world, with ever smaller parking spaces and ever larger costs per gallon of petrol, it would seem the A4 may have even more fans as time passes.
I heard, last nite, that Arab oil producing nations WANT to produce more, WANT to see prices moderate, but due to circumstances (i.e., huge demand increases from "the west" and China) may be UNABLE to increase supply (the assumption of the news piece was that there was "plenty" in the ground, but that the issues were "getting it out of the ground" quick enough to respond to the rise in demand, as noted).
The A4 "may" be an almost socially/globally responsible car -- who'da thunk it?!?
So – in partial answer to my own question, it appears that (all other things being roughly equal) the 6 speed Tip allows a wider ratio spread. In this particular context, it may mean that if a similar first gear ratio is chosen for the A4 (similar to the 14 to 1 of the SMG in the TT – for roughly similar launch acceleration) then the top gear ratio of a 6 speed Tip would result in an overall ratio in top gear of 2.3 : 1 or so (vs. 3.05 : 1 for the DSG top gear) and my rusty math skills suggest .75 (2.3 / 3.05) times 2600 rpm for the TT = 2000 rpm for the A4 3.2 Tip 6.
Perhaps not worth the effort (to derive these numbers) to most, but I was seeking a level of comfort / reassurance that the 2005.5 A4 3.2 Tip 6 (a lot of numbers!) would offer something close to the acceleration I expect with further expectation of reasonably relaxed cruising and highway fuel efficiency. Sounds like this combination ought to be able to provide both. Theoretically.
In addition to improving potential range on what looks like it will be a fairly small tank, if Mark’s $3.00 / gallon prophesy is accurate, 3 or 4 MPG improvement over the highway portion of my 15,000 miles per year would also save me some lunch money.
From the reports I've gathered, the DSG transmission offered in the TT, while viewed as a technological marvel, has been nothing but trouble to many TT owners. There have been lots of breakdowns or electronic problems with the tranny.
It was Audi's intent to introduce the B7 A4 with DSG, but the DSG setup has been pulled until they can work out the problems.
I've had the opportunity to drive a TT with DSG and prefer it's crisp and quick responsiveness over Tiptronic. If they can fix the bugs, I would like to see the DSG totally replace Tiptronic.
Until then, a B7 A4 3.2 6-spd manual with the S-Line package looks really tempting.
Mark I am 99% sure that the S line version will be available as an option when the 2005.5 is introduced in Feb. That is what I read on Audiworld.com.
So, there would really be no reason to wait until fall 2005 for another version of the exact same car. You might be able to pick it up for less $ but all the options will be the same it seems. Maybe the DSG will be offered but I am interested in Tip. anyway.
I am looking forward to seeing what the car looks like with the new gauge console and the MMI as in the A6. I guess we will have to wait until next month for the fall autoshows over in Europe etc.
The press release on the S-Line subject did say "Fall 2005" -- the four rings web site is where this information came from. If you want to know the URL, just email me and I'll give it to anyone who wants it. Since it is a non edmunds Internet site, I can't share it here in this blog.
I certainly HOPE the Sline (true Sline) designation is available from Feb 2005 on. However, even if they call the option group Ultra Sport, well a rose by any other name should be close enough, if you get my drift.
I drove a 2005 Ultra sport 1.8T 6speed manual.
I understand how some are picking on its power and take off from a standing start. But, the thing was tight as a tick, handled very well, rode to my tastes just stiff enough and, well, with the presumed improvements for the 05.5 model and the 3.2 engine, all I can say is WOW.
Of course the extra size and lux of the new A6 may also be compelling. Yet, frankly, I can almost not remember the last time I had anyone else in my allroad but me -- I weigh 180 pounds. Why am I carrying all that extra space and weight around (the car, not me, the car!)
If I can zoot the new A4 up enough, once again I may be darn close to changing my mind from the A6, Acura RL size vehicle to the A4.
This time, my lease is working IN MY FAVOR -- that is, I have slack time, neither miles nor months will control me -- and I've still got warranty.
According to my calcs, after reading the chart on the GG tax and applying it, the S4 Tip5 costs you an extra $1300 federal. Now, if the tranny choice is reflected in the tax game, the S4 6M runs $2600 to the feds!
A slushbox that costs less and uses less; who'da thunk it?
I read the C/D article too -- I wondered what car they were talking about -- but it was an FWD version, which, if anything should've made it quicker, but perhaps less well balanced.
I would not reject a new 1.8T A4 quattro ultra sport if someone wanted to donate one to me.
Having said that, the idea of a new 3.2 ultra sport, 6spd manual all zooted up 2005.5 A4 with the new suspension and A6 MMI, etc etc etc -- for .5% price increase -- well, I can wait 4 or 5 months for that!
I am biased, as you know, but I to this very moment, think the A4 1.8T quattro with ultra sport is both a good looking and good performing car -- it "almost" makes you forget it is a 4 cylinder.
I also drove a 2004 A4 3.0 leftover (without Ultra Sport) -- I thought the overall feel of the 1.8T was much more performance oriented -- I'd swear it felt quicker than the 3.0 in fact.
All press releases to date on the subject say that the full option suite will be avaible on both versions, the only exception is that the 3.2 alone can be had with Premium Leather, the 2.0T can be had only with non-premium leather (inserts).
I wonder if they are going to do anything to improve the reliability of their parts so you don't have to replace the front end (upper and lower control arms and tie rod ends) every 50000 miles?
Maybe it's the economy, maybe it's the election, maybe it's the uncertain times in which we live (vis a vis terrorism); but, I have been reading the postings (sprinkled within these "fans of the brand" writings) of late and there seems to be a paradigm shift of sorts (primarily within the European town-halls).
That shift seems to be a frustration or weariness perhaps with European cars' (not just Audis, for the record) reliability.
Long a proponent of "no boring cars," or "performance" first, perhaps I can share with you that I too may be growing a bit weary.
Last Friday night, my wife and I decided we would take her 2003 TT to Columbus (~100 miles from Cincinnati) to visit relatives. We almost always take my 2003 allroad, and at 37,000 miles on the allroad and only 30,000 on the TT, it seemed that every little 200 mile round trip we could save would keep me in the original warranty while I make up my mind on the replacement car for me.
So, she pulls into our garage and notices that the brake lights and center high mount stop light remained "on." No matter what we tried, the lights would not go off. We knew that the battery would die, so, at 9:30PM we drove to the Audi dealership, filled out a repair form and dropped it and the key into the early bird drop off.
I called the dealership at 8AM (they have Saturday Service hours) and explained the situation. They were "overbooked" but offered a loaner car either then or first thing Monday morning. We opted for the Monday morning loaner since we were, after all, on our way to Columbus and really didn't need the car at that time.
The "cost" in time and aggravation would take another 19 paragraphs to relay. Suffice it to say, it was a simple switch that had somehow failed in the "on position." A loaner was provided and, in total, three trips to the dealer were required for a variety of reasons (briefcase transfer, garage door opener issue, car on wash rack when promised and many very insignificant issues that made the ordeal snowball into "costing" about 4 hours of my wife's time -- she's an attorney -- think about the cost per hour or, better said, the lost opportunity [cost].)
She said -- "I know in 30,000 miles this is the first real pain in the neck, but -- but, I just wonder if that Acura would put me through this kind of pain at such a 'young age'?"
My wife loves the TT, loves a manual transmission -- that is, she has been Performance & Safety, Fun, and Reliability (in that order) ever since I met her almost 30 years ago (when we were in college in the '70's.)
It seems that she, like so many other posters here, are just growing weary of the little bits and pieces of unreliability these European cars are apparently fraught with.
I used to think the American cars were very unreliable -- but our relatives (in Columbus) have cars more than 5 years old (one GM and one Ford product) and they perform in an uninspired or uninspiring fashion, probably aren't quite as safe are not much fun, but -- heck -- they "never" seem to be undrivable or unreliable.
Maybe its "us" but I feel, at 37,000 miles that I need to tweak this that and the other thing on my car -- and my wife is now "cautious" and wonders "what will inconvenience me next" -- on a 2003, 30,000 mile young European car for Pity's sake!
I read the gripes and moans about Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Saab, VW and Volvo -- the cars are unreliable (so many posters say), the dealers are incompetent and although the cars often receive raves for performance -- it just seems that in the current climate (recession, 9-11, divisive presidential campaigns, rising interest rates, and on and on) performance just may no longer be enough to mitigate the European's long-standing reputation for less reliable cars.
I read an article that said, "people" -- since the recession and 9-11 -- have shifted their thoughts from "being the best that can be" to a culture of "good enough."
I hope this isn't true -- but slicing out two attributes, performance and reliability, I, for one, used to think that performance would always trump reliability (to a certain extent).
Now, I'm a bit less certain of that. Perhaps, the best you can be is now shifting "our" thoughts away from performance and toward reliability.
I reserve the right to, as my 90 year old mother would say, "let this pass" (as in this too shall pass, my son).
But, I am weary of such disruptions -- and those folks on the Japanese town-halls either have really low expectations or their Acuras and Lexus cars truly are darn near bullet proof.
Sorry to hear about your reliability problems and all the time and hassle it took. I too am like you in that I value performance and fun to drive very highly. But reliability is also important. It has become more important now that I have two young children. I can't imagine how horrible it would feel to be stranded on the side of the highway late an night with my kids and have to walk to get help.
Where I am going with this is: my previous two vehicles have been a '98 323i and an '02 C320. I have enjoyed driving them both, and I appreciate all the advanced technology and safety features they offer. BUT, I am scared to death to own any German car after the warranty expires. So I have to ask myself, do I continue to get a new German car every 3 to 4 years (which always keeps me with a hefty payment)? Or do I buy Japanese and keep the vehicle 7 to 10 years (like my wife has always done, and she has never had a reliability problem)? It makes a lot more financial sense to buy Japanese. And, can you put a price on peace of mind?
Decisions, decisions. The Germans (BMW, Audi, VW, and Mercedes) have a lot of work to do to improve quality control. I have been a relatively satisfied customer and I am thinking about leaving them. Imagine someone who got a lemon. They have lost this customer for life.
Was that your only repair issue on the TT? Not to minimize your inconvenience, but that doesn't sound too terribly bad. You can forget your briefcase and garage door opener equally with a Japanese car. I suppose if you never had to make the trip to the dealer in the first place that would not have happened.
I've had my current car, a Honda, at the dealer for numerous small items. And one major item which required a multi-day drop off, at about 22K. My most recent trip to the dealer resulted in a call at 4:00pm when they said they couldn't get it in, so I had to go the next day (again) at 7:30am to drop it off.
I've had a water stain in my headliner since about 2K, I know have 38K mi. I first mentioned it to them at 2K and they said they would clean it. Next time I came in they forgot about it. The next time they said they would need to order it, but this never happened. The last time in, they ordered a new headliner and said they would call me when it arrived; they never did.
When I had my Audi, I wouldn't have tolerated this type of service; and would have been very vocal about the lack of reliability. But now with a Honda my mentality switched to "it's good enough", "doesn't really matter, it's only a Honda". When I had my Audi, I even had the dealer re-adjust the glove compartment latch because I wanted it to open a little easier...everything was perfect and immaculate on my Audi.
Just to add to some anecdotal evidence...50% of the people I know who have Honda Odyssey's had their transmissions fail; though that's only 4 people.
I am pondering purchasing the new Audi A4 Cabriolet. The car is absolutely adorable, drives beautifully, and definitely feels like a luxury car. Is this car a good investment (i.e. value)? I plan on driving it for at least 4 years. Ideally I would like a luxury car that I can afford that has an excellent safety rating, great service, and is a lot of fun to drive. Any reccomendations? Things that I should be aware before purchasing an Audi? Any advice would be appreciated.
unless you have a money tree, run to find something more reliable. the audis ahve a very bad habit of major systems failure at early intervals 9timing belts have to be replaced at 50k miles instead of the recommended service interval of 90k miles because too many of them fail in the interval; frontend pieces like lower control arms fail so frequestly at intervals of 40k or so that audi now sells kits with all of the lower control arms in it and upper control arms and tie rod ends are right up there.
If your intention is to keep this car to 49,999 miles -- this is YOUR LUCKY day.
If you are willing to pay for the extended Audi coverage, you will also not have too much to fret about.
However, the cost of keeping a European car beyond the warranty period is breathtaking.
The Japanese Pundits on the Town Hall here generally proclaim that their cars are virtually invulnerable. While I cannot attest to these claims, I can hardly dispute them as they seem to be so numerous.
I have been such an Audi fan for so long that I am not a good source of objective information. My historic bent has been to believe performance trumps reliability. I have, as noted recently, grown far less tolerant of the "constant" care and feeding that European cars seem to require -- meanwhile my Japanese car owning friends and associates think a visit to the dealership every 100,000 miles is a bit intrusive.
As the man (RR) once said in a famous joke, "there must be a pony in there somewhere!"
I think that's mostly "urban mythos" A hangover from the days when the euros introduced a lot of the features that the japanese later copied.
"The cost of keeping a european car past the warranty is breathtaking."
Let's see. My 328i is about to hit 100,000 miles. $50 repair to dash. roughly $1600 in general upkeep. (including upcoming inspection/brakes)
If you go to a honda dealer for all the suggested upkeep, you will pay a lot of money. A friend of mine was billed $100 for his honda coupe for the 6,000 mile oil change and inspection. He's sorry he didn't get nicer car, when he tallied the expenses and realized he could have gotten a c230 or a saab.
The fact is, the cost of keeping a european vs japanese car is typically of the order of $100-$150 a year.
I'm a firm believer that reliability has just as much to do with demographics and driving style as it does manufacturer.
I've used this analogy before; if you give a couch to a grandma and a similar couch to frat boys I can guarantee with much certainty that grandma's couch will last longer and be in better condition after 4 years. If you give a different model to the frat boys, can you really infer that grandma's couch was of better quality or more reliable?
I've found most of the cars of owned have had a similar amount of problems; from Audi to Honda. I drive pretty hard (can't help it, personality trait, perhaps a therapist could help) and expect that repairs will come.
I can't recall the last time I've seen a Camry driving "aggressively", or by anybody under 50 (kidding here).
I'm more impressed with the 3 series reliability (CR) than an LS400, since it should be driven aggressively.
The odd electrical problem does seem to have plagued European manufactures more than Japanese. It would be beneficial if there were some analysis as to the cause of reliability, or lack thereof, instead of counting the number of visits to a dealer...more of a statement to CR and similar establishments.
“The "cost" in time and aggravation would take another 19 paragraphs to relay. Suffice it to say, it was a simple switch that had somehow failed in the "on position." A loaner was provided and, in total, three trips to the dealer were required for a variety of reasons (briefcase transfer, garage door opener issue, car on wash rack when promised and many very insignificant issues that made the ordeal snowball into "costing" about 4 hours of my wife's time -- she's an attorney -- think about the cost per hour or, better said, the lost opportunity [cost].)” - Mark
Now, for those of us with one vehicle and one driver in the ‘family’, such inconvenience and ‘cost’ is increased even more.
I do not live close to anyone else that works near me. I usually need to be at work before typical automotive dealership service departments are even open. And I happen not to live or work near where public transport could provide a reasonable alternative for my work commute. And arranging a loaner for overnight before service is required (a hassle, at best) is only possible if I know ahead of time that something is going to require unscheduled service. (Almost an oxymoron.)
Anyway – Mark – you have hit exactly my concern regarding reliability. I do not expect to own an expensive car past warrantee. So the $$ cost of any diagnostic and repair work is not the issue. But my (personal and professional) time and inconvenience are an issue.
For me.
YMMV. - Ray Does a semi-automatic Paradigm Shift have 5 speeds – or 6??? (Kidding.)
I am pleased and relieved to read "in defense" of European cars postings here.
Many of the postings on this town hall (and other European halls within the Edmunds group) do seem to proclaim that these otherwise fine cars are pretty lousy on a reliability scale. The Lexus and Acura boards seem to be just the opposite -- with posters routinely suggesting that their 100,000+ mile cars are soon approaching middle age (or words to that effect).
Maybe, it is a paradigm shift (6 speed) maybe it is that the personality types who buy an Acura don't drive agressively. I don't know. The beauty of the web is the ability for such large numbers of people to participate -- and that "ought" to smoothe out the responses somewhat.
Folks almost univerally love their German (and other European) cars performance, looks, features, safety, etc. But, if and/or when they care to opine on the issue of reliability it is the rare bird who says life to date costs are $50 and $1600 in maintenance. Indeed, to read some postings, VW's cost $25,000 to buy and a like amount to keep.
Other's talk about their $17,000 Audi engine repairs and how they have had to darn near go chapter or sue Audi. Even the odd blown Volvo or BMW or Mercedes [component] at an almost unimaginable young age pepper the writings here.
My personal bent is to not have ANY car, from ANY vendor be w/o warranty -- but the Japanese folks seem to think, ". . .we don't need no stinkin' warranty. . ."
My bias, still to a new Audi A4 or A6, notwithstanding, has been effected by all this dialog -- and that is why I do plan to seriously consider Acrua's new RL and even Chryco's 300C AWD.
I may end up with another Audi (my 28th) -- but THIS time, I will at least have tested the competition.
I frankly tend to believe that the bullet proof German is the exception as I also tend to believe that the unreliable Japanese is too.
Let's try to stick more to the topic of the upcoming A4 than European quality in general. There are plenty of discussions on News & Views where that conversation fits.
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I am not particularly interested in european car quality in general, but the quality of the new audi is sure of concern. At this point, their quality is such that I would be hard pressed to buy another, and only knowing that the quality issue has been resolved will enable me to purchase another.
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My sales guy says 1Q05. Any other recent information available to confirm or deny? Thanks, - Ray Thinking the 3.2 6 speed Tip. may be worth test driving . . .
I have the same info. Should be showing up at the end of February or the beginning of March.
I'm interested to see how the S-Line will look when it is released in the Fall of 2005. The pictures they had of the S-Line package didn't include any of the exterior extras (bodykit, wheels, etc.).
The only thing is I read in audiworld the S line will be available as an option. It includes the following: S line sports package which lowers the car by 20 millimeters and includes firmer shock absorber/spring rates and 7.5x17 or even 8x18-inch wheels. Also includes visual logos in the front grille and on the rear rubbing strips, special inlays for the driver's area, sports seats with lumbar support for driver and passenger plus electric adjustment and various 3-spoke leather steering wheels. The S line exterior package gives the body a particularly sporty look thanks to a radiator grille with S line grid pattern, an original design for the front and rear bumpers and a rear spoiler for the saloon.
Soooo, sounds to me like that will be avail. and would be perfect with the 6 speed Tip.
Ok guys, this may not be new news for some of you but I just got back from vacation and found the virtual 360 degree imagery on the new A4.
They will have the Navigation Plus which is the same system as the 2005 A6 MMI but the controls will NOT be mounted below the shifter but where the stereo would be. I am okay with this.
They have a larger center armrest console available as well as a ton of optional steering wheels.
On audiworld I read that the 2005.5 is getting all the other upgrades and options as the 2005 A6. This will match earlier speculation that the A8 / A6 / & A4 will all have the same exterior and interior looks.
In addition, audiworld said the S line will be available in March as well.
My question ( Mark ) is what is the difference between the Ultra Sport and the S line?????????
Also, back to a question I asked you in June Mark, now that we know the body style is closely matching the 2005 A6 and all the options the A6 offers will be available in the 2005.5 as well; what is going to be the difference in the 2006 A4 vs. the 2005.5???????????
The only thing i could think is that the current MMI on the A6 will be an option on the 2006 A4 but not on the 2005.5. The instrument panel will be changed to the A6 style as well. For the most part tho I think it shouldn't be too different.
Mark, you have a pretty good relationship with your Audi dealer, when you get by there next, would you mind inquiring about these questions for us as well as any other dirt you can dig up.
As well, anyone else hear anything please let us know!
TODAY, October 20, 2004, my Audi dealer called to tell me he FINALLY had the brochures for the 2005 A6's (no cars, other than one A6 4.2, but brochures).
Several A6 3.2's (presold are inbound as are 2 unsold ones). I have been talking with other 2.7T Audi A6 owners who are in the final 6 months of their leases and in a quandry.
I with no glee, remind all here, that I wrote and wrote again the question "what were they thinking?" when I heard the new 3.2 A6 would have 255 HP, which is 5 more than the last A6 2.7T and 10 less than the outgoing A6 2.7T S-line.
Moreover, the new A6, even with its weight saving measures is bigger and heavier than the outgoing A6 2.7T (either in standard or S-line guise).
So, my Audi dealer calls to tell me about the number of 2001 & 2002 A6 2.7T's coming off leases -- guess what?
Yep -- the new A6 is somehow being perceived more as a replacement for the outgoing 3.0 rather than the 2.7T and the 2.7T customers are thinking they have been left out in the cold (with respect to performance).
I do not know the statistics, someone does however, but of the A6's sold since the 2.7T's were brought to market, it "appears" that the 2.7T was the "sales champeen!" The 4.2 was a rare bird and there were quite a few 3.0's.
Using only the MSRP as a guide, the new A6 3.2 is at the outgoing S-Line price when similarly equipped as much as is possible given the fact that the new A6 is, well, NEW!
Like me, these folks are wondering, at a loaded price of $51,500 + $720 shipping, what this 3.2 must "perform like."
Moreover, there are plenty of new cars in that price range that, on paper at least, look to be at a REAL performance advantage over the A6 3.2.
But, "I told you so," provides little comfort.
To the question. The real differences, to date, between Ultra Sport and S-Line are overwhelmingly cosmetic. When pressed, my dealer admits the only difference besides the logos he can come up with is that the S-Line Audis have a "special" perforated steering wheel with a glintzy (a sort of made up word, if you care) "S-Line" red metal and chrome insignia on the base of the steering wheel. Woo woo!
Surely (and stop calling me that) there must be some other differentiation -- alas, or alack, my dealer seems to think the thrust is to phase out the Ultra Sport designation and standardize on the S-Line theme throughout the entire model line.
S-Line is "S" light, if you ask me, but the principal NON cosmetic differences (between S-Line and standard) are real: bigger wheels and tires, lowered coefficient of friction and lowered and stiffened suspension, bigger and grippier steering wheel, sport seats, special leather treatments, steering wheels that should decrease the human hand's output of persperation and perhaps chrome tips (the latter is primarily cosmetic, I'll grant).
I so want to have the ability to test a new A6 with Sport Package (or S-line if one is avail) and an A4 3.2 stick with Ultra sport or S-line whatever the heck they call it.
Here is the only piece of info I could get: Orders for the 2005.5 A4 will be taken beginning in December 2004 for late Feb early March delivery.
Huh, December orders for Feb delivery. Not sure how i feel about ordering a car I have not sat or drove in. But I am getting really excited about the car finally coming out.
One observation I have acknowledged after visiting the local audi dealership and viewing the 2005 A6 is the majority of options on the 2005 A6 will be available on the 2005.5 A4. For example, I enjoyed the 12 way sport seat on the A6 as well as the upgraded leather, so since the A4 is getting the exact same option, this is a no brainer order for me.
On the UK website you can see all the available options like steering wheel choices, rim choices, front center arm rest thingy, S line package, xenon, etc etc.
The only question Mark brought up that I am a little skeptical on is will they have a manual option for the 3.2 FSI A4 S line or will it only come in the Tiptronic like the A6 3.2 and 4.2? Either way it will be a nice car and should with the weight difference of at least 300 pounds (A6 3.2 vs. the A4 3.2) move the 0-60 Tip down to the 6.5 or 6.7 range.
From what I could gather on the UK audi website, the following is included with the S-line which will be available in Feb/March.
Upgraded radio system Aluminium window trims framing the exterior windows Quattro GmbH body styling in body color Electric rear windows ( woopie ) Leather gear knob, gaiter(?) and hand brake Upgraded cloth upholstery ( which you add option of leather anyway) Sports suspension by GmbH ( lowering 20mm ) Heated and Electric Door mirrors with washer jets Front sport seats including electric lumbar support 3 -spoke leather steering wheel - part perforated upgraded 235/45 R17 tires upgraded 7J 17" 5 twin spoke alloy wheels
I think there prob. is a couple other options that will come along for NA that is not available in the UK like:
firmer shock absorbers/spring rates logos on the front grille and rear rubbing strips S-line grid pattern on the grille rear spoiler original design for the front and rear bumpers
Anyway, sounds pretty exciting to me. Sign me up please!
Hey guys, the Micro site is now available (just like the A6 had) on the UK website.
Pretty darn cool.
Plus at the end you can download a pdf file of the specs, options etc.
Lots of good info here. It appears there will not be an option for Manual on the 3.2FSI but only Tiptronic. Confirms options within the S-line option, 0-62 at 6.9 sec so maybe 0-60 in 6.7 / 6.8 sec via Tip. Confirms Bluetooth and Satellite Navigation Plus based on the current MMI on the A6.
There will be more options later on for both the 2.0T and 3.2 models. Right now, there is an initial release spec of manual only for the 2.0T. A few weeks later, you should have a manual option for the 3.2 as well. Also, you'll have more color choices.
The S-Line package will not be available upon the initial release. This package should appear in the USA in the Fall of 2005.
Rumour has it that a RS4 sedan will come out as a 2006 model since they're ending production of the RS6.
I would be very disappointed if the S-line was not available in March. I have read in several articles on Audiworld that it would be available. As well, the UK can order the S-line right now for their 2005.5 A4.
Where is the article or information to suggest it would not be out until the fall?
The initial release options list was scanned and posted on several other Audi forum sites. These specs are only for the first wave of B7 models that will be showing up in the February/March timeframe. They have a limited choice of colors, transmissions, and other options. As time goes by, more options will be made avialable.
The S-Line package is not listed as an available option for the initial release. While they had pictures of an A4 with the S-Line package, it only had the interior options shown. The exterior only had the S-Line badge affixed to the grill.
In Europe, you should be able to get the S-Line in 3 different packages: interior only, exterior only, and both together. For the North American market, we're supposed to get the S-Line package that will have both the interior and exterior options (including a body kit for a noteable visual difference). It is my opinion that the exterior packages were not yet ready when they unveiled the B7 models at the auto show in Paris.
I have not seen any documentation that the S-Line package will be available right away, but I've seen various conversations on other Audi forums that suggest that the S-Line option will be made available in the fall of 2005.
I've heard the same thing, with respect to S-line, per se, but the Ultra Sport Option is supposed to soldier on, perhaps as a kind of substitute S-line until they can get it in to NA production.
I would say, NO Sline for 6 months after US roll out, I hope I am wrong.
I know of virtually no substantive differences -- the dealer rep claims it is the little S-Line insignia that is THE differentiator.
Ultra sport actually includes, at this time, more than the press info claims about S-Line. But, I think that is not the entire story.
S-Line thus far has included "mild" sporting changes and visual cues -- for example, sport seats, ground effects, spoilers, steering wheel, trim, shift knob and larger wheels and summer only tires, etc.
The S-Line A6 2.7T seemed to break the rule of no engine changes by virtue of its +15 HP bump and +22 bump in torque. Other S-Lines have generally only been ground effects, sport suspensions, and the like (as I noted above).
It is my recollection that there will be in a given Audi model 4 versions: A4 (standard) A4 S-Line A4 as S4 and A4 as RS4 -- this would, theoretically be available in the A3, A4, A6 and A8 lines with introductions of S and RS versions NOT being available from launch.
Hence, the new A4 (and A6, one would imagine) would offer S-Line versions within the first 6 months from launch, followed shortly thereafter or possibly at the same time by "true" S class cars followed perhaps at year two with the RS versions.
There is some evidence of this already with the current A4 which has a sticker reading Ultra sport, but with Sline insignias on the steering wheel and elsewhere on the body. The new A6 already has a full Sline body kit available, too (at least in Europe).
The Sline like kit for the new A6 is from Votex Gmbh and can be seen on line. Although this is not an official Sline kit, it stands to reason that Audi and Audi USA will soon bring this to market in the soich fo' mo' money! I'd buy an A6 Ultra sport if I were to buy an A6 and if that option were for sale (and I wouldn't care if they called it Ultra Sport or Sline).
I am still holding off for certain until more details become known about the new A4.
The Ultra Sport option never did make it to the configurator, but eveyone seemed to know about it.
I am looking to replace an older american SUV with a smaller, more agile, awd vehicle that I will use every day for commuting to work - NY/NJ metro area, 50 miles round trip, crappy roads.
I thought I had zeroed in on a 2005 Audi A4 1.8T quattro lease. (I don't think the extra $$ for the 3.0 will be worth it). The dealer seems ready to give me a very attractive deal on one at the moment and probably through year end. But, he mentioned that the A4 was getting a face lift for 1st qtr 05. (confirmed in your postings).
In your opinion, do you think there will be competitive deals on the new 2.0T in Feb or should I just pull the trigger and get the 1.8T before year end? Will there be a noticeable performance difference?
I am also thinking that there may be an outside chance that I get steal on a 3.0 as the year comes to a close.
I will also say that I am second guessing this potential purchase as I read more about reliability issues. I need this car to work every day. I will also say that I am going to look at the G35 and see what that is like.
How could a car that good looking (A4) potentially have so many problems. It sounds like buying one is along the lines of marrying a hot model only to find out that she mental issues. But, I guess if she let you sleep with her sister (getting a loaner) every time she flips out it could work.
bmwccc, I think we may be looking at the same thing from a different point of reference. I have seen both articles you've referenced. Both are detailed articles on the new B7 A4 with information that has been publically released by Audi AG. The information that is released by Audi AG is typically targeting the European market. So far, Audi of North America has not released details on what will be made available to North American consumers.
Typically, it has been the case for Audi AG to release a new model to the European market first before allowing it to be introduced here in the USA. Also, the options and packages will be different (different grouping and/or lack of certain choices) to target the taste of the American consumer.
Audi AG has been offering an S-Line package on their models for several years, but decided originally not to offer it here. Instead, they later chose to create an Ultrasport package for the A4 that contains most (but not all) of the items found in the S-Line. Now, Audi want's to bring in the S-Line to North America so it can be standardized globally.
Since it is not the policy of this forum to post links to other auto discussion sites, I will say that the site you've referenced in your second link contains postings from members who were able to obtain, scan, and post the complete US Market Introduction Order Guide on what will be initially made available to the USA for the B7 A4 2.0T and 3.2 Avant and Sedan (check the B7 A4 forum on that site). On that sheet, there is no mention of the avialability of the S-Line package. You can get a Sport package, but that's no different from the current Sport package available today.
I agree with Mark's view that there will be four levels to choose for the A4 lineup: Base, S-Line, S, and RS. We will get to see the Base model arrive in Fabruary/March of 2005. The S-Line may show up as soon as 3 months later, but more likely to be 6 months later as it would be released with the arrival of the S model. The RS model would then show up early in 2006 - one year after the introduction of the B7 A4. The articles you're viewing would mention release timelines for the European market which never matches the North American release schedule.
Since the A4 is undergoing a major change (enough to be designated under a new internal model number - B7 instead of B6), the demand for the new design will usually be high at first, causing dealers not to make deals on leasing/purchasing. For some locations, the demand may be high enough to have dealers sell them over MSRP.
The B6 A4 is a beautiful car (biased view here ). You will be pleased with either a 1.8T or a 3.0. If you're not planning on doing any performance customizations, you may find the 3.0 to be a smoother, more powerful car to drive. If you're looking at economy, the 1.8T will deliver, but try to choose the manual transmission as the Tiptronic tranny mated with the 1.8T will seem very sluggish and unrewarding when driving.
There has been some problems with the earlier releases of the B6 A4 model (I know as I have one), but the larger issues that were of concern to everyone was addressed and corrected, so the 2005 A4 should be among the best built for this model. You may find a small glitch (small squeak or rattle), but it's something that is quickly remedied by the service team at no cost to you. You also can't beat the 4 year / 50,000 mile free maintenance plan.
I've had mine now for 3 years and have driven 80,000 miles. With all that driving, the car has maintained it's impeccable fit and finish. The handling is crisp and precise, and the performance remains top notch. I'm driving approximately 60 miles a day for work (Akron to Cleveland), so I know how that kind of commute can be. The A4 makes the drive to be a pleasant start to the day and a great way to unwind at the end.
Comments
I don't see any mention of it in the pricing material on Audiusa or Edmunds, though I find it listed for other cars (a 575 F1 for instance).
Interesting that the current 4.2L S4 with Tip gets better mileage than the manual...
The 3.2 FSI which will certainly grow in potency (as in I be an impotent person, yuk yuk, I crack myself up) over the next few years and they claim it will also grow in economy.
The 3.2 in a ever so slightly longer wheelbase version of the A4 will be a fine sheen indeed for those of us who have four legged "children" (2 Shelties 13 and 20 pounds respectively).
My two trips to Europe this year gave me, after all, even great appreciation for the Audi A3 -- that, however, will just not do, for Pete's sake, I at least want more than a vestigial back seat.
So now that we know the 2005.5 A4 is going to have all the options available like the 2005 A6, are they planning on building a 2006 A4 that would be different than the 2005.5?
Or, if there are no changes at all, maybe they would include more options as standard on the 2006 A4 vs. charging people for those options on the 2005.5 A4.
I guess my questions is, what is going to be the difference? Months ago we heard there would be a difference and it seems they decided to offer all of that earlier.
Am I making any sense?
It was on the window sticker of one sitting in the showroom.
But:
The TT 3.2 DSG tested by Road & Track in their May issue achieved 0 – 60 in 6.3 sec. And the quarter in 14.7 @ 96. Not bad numbers, but . . .
The weight quoted is 3680 – possibly similar to the new A4 3.2?
But the gearing looks pretty aggressively biased toward acceleration – with 2600 rpm at 60 mpg in 6th gear. That’s about 600 rpm (30%) more than I’d personally like to see, in terms of long term enjoyment of low engine noise and reasonable cruising MPG. Not that the 3.2 wouldn’t probably turn 3500 rpm+ quite happily all day – I’d just rather not listen to it or feed it. Just one of my biases.
The final drive is actually listed as 2 ratios: 4.06 : 1 in 1 – 4 and 3.32 : 1 in 5 and 6. Huh?
And my reading of currently published information suggests that the DSG will NOT be available on the new A4 – at least initially. Seems odd to me not to showcase their new trans. technology in their new A4 . . .
So – my stupid questions are:
One – is the weight of the new A4 3.2 anticipated to be in the same range as the TT tested by R&T? I see the 2005 A4 3.0 Q Tip listed on audiusa.com as less - 3550.
Two – is the ratio spread of the 6 speed Tip similar to the DSG – implying similar acceleration, other things being roughly equal? I can’t immediately lay my hands on a list of the 6 speed Tip ratios. Audiusa.com does not seem to include this in their specification sections.
Three – what is the final drive expected to be in the A4 3.2 Tip?
Thanks,
- Ray
Hoping to test drive a 2005.5 A4 3.2 tip sometime . . .
FWIW.
And although I understand that y'all don't think or act or spend like me, I wonder why anyone would buy anything but a stick and Ultra Sport in the A4 (3.2).
There is a clarification of the (apparently) 2006 A4 here on the web (look it up) with pictures and a description that claims the FALL of 2005 A4's will offer a "true" (badged and all) S-Line version of the A4, ostensibly replacing the ever popular Ultra Sport designation (which, as far as I can tell, NEVER made it to the on-line AUDIUSA configurator).
This apparently (key weasel word) means that the 2005.5 and the 2006 chassis for the A4 are, if NOT identical, very very similar.
As I noted, the A4 with all the lux options, Ultra sport and a 6speed manual (or DSG if only one would be offered) ought to give the A6 a run for its money for those of us, as noted, who generally drive solo, sometimes have one passenger (and two small dogs) and rarely attempt to carry 3 passengers for less than 30 minutes.
In a crowded driving world, with ever smaller parking spaces and ever larger costs per gallon of petrol, it would seem the A4 may have even more fans as time passes.
I heard, last nite, that Arab oil producing nations WANT to produce more, WANT to see prices moderate, but due to circumstances (i.e., huge demand increases from "the west" and China) may be UNABLE to increase supply (the assumption of the news piece was that there was "plenty" in the ground, but that the issues were "getting it out of the ground" quick enough to respond to the rise in demand, as noted).
The A4 "may" be an almost socially/globally responsible car -- who'da thunk it?!?
So – in partial answer to my own question, it appears that (all other things being roughly equal) the 6 speed Tip allows a wider ratio spread. In this particular context, it may mean that if a similar first gear ratio is chosen for the A4 (similar to the 14 to 1 of the SMG in the TT – for roughly similar launch acceleration) then the top gear ratio of a 6 speed Tip would result in an overall ratio in top gear of 2.3 : 1 or so (vs. 3.05 : 1 for the DSG top gear) and my rusty math skills suggest .75 (2.3 / 3.05) times 2600 rpm for the TT = 2000 rpm for the A4 3.2 Tip 6.
Perhaps not worth the effort (to derive these numbers) to most, but I was seeking a level of comfort / reassurance that the 2005.5 A4 3.2 Tip 6 (a lot of numbers!) would offer something close to the acceleration I expect with further expectation of reasonably relaxed cruising and highway fuel efficiency. Sounds like this combination ought to be able to provide both. Theoretically.
In addition to improving potential range on what looks like it will be a fairly small tank, if Mark’s $3.00 / gallon prophesy is accurate, 3 or 4 MPG improvement over the highway portion of my 15,000 miles per year would also save me some lunch money.
- Ray
Wondering what the reality will be . . .
It was Audi's intent to introduce the B7 A4 with DSG, but the DSG setup has been pulled until they can work out the problems.
I've had the opportunity to drive a TT with DSG and prefer it's crisp and quick responsiveness over Tiptronic. If they can fix the bugs, I would like to see the DSG totally replace Tiptronic.
Until then, a B7 A4 3.2 6-spd manual with the S-Line package looks really tempting.
I am 99% sure that the S line version will be available as an option when the 2005.5 is introduced in Feb. That is what I read on Audiworld.com.
So, there would really be no reason to wait until fall 2005 for another version of the exact same car. You might be able to pick it up for less $ but all the options will be the same it seems. Maybe the DSG will be offered but I am interested in Tip. anyway.
I am looking forward to seeing what the car looks like with the new gauge console and the MMI as in the A6. I guess we will have to wait until next month for the fall autoshows over in Europe etc.
I certainly HOPE the Sline (true Sline) designation is available from Feb 2005 on. However, even if they call the option group Ultra Sport, well a rose by any other name should be close enough, if you get my drift.
I drove a 2005 Ultra sport 1.8T 6speed manual.
I understand how some are picking on its power and take off from a standing start. But, the thing was tight as a tick, handled very well, rode to my tastes just stiff enough and, well, with the presumed improvements for the 05.5 model and the 3.2 engine, all I can say is WOW.
Of course the extra size and lux of the new A6 may also be compelling. Yet, frankly, I can almost not remember the last time I had anyone else in my allroad but me -- I weigh 180 pounds. Why am I carrying all that extra space and weight around (the car, not me, the car!)
If I can zoot the new A4 up enough, once again I may be darn close to changing my mind from the A6, Acura RL size vehicle to the A4.
This time, my lease is working IN MY FAVOR -- that is, I have slack time, neither miles nor months will control me -- and I've still got warranty.
Patience is a virtue.
Idle hands, are the devil's phonebooth.
Drive it like you live.
"I drove a 2005 Ultra sport 1.8T 6speed manual."
Is this really the same car that generated these comments in the current C+D:
"Lows: Noisy and feeble engine, gritty shifter action, slow-tempo shifts "
And their reported 0-60 time was 8.1 sec.
- Ray
Hoping the 2005.5 3.2 Tip is both quicker and smoother than described . . .
A slushbox that costs less and uses less; who'da thunk it?
I would not reject a new 1.8T A4 quattro ultra sport if someone wanted to donate one to me.
Having said that, the idea of a new 3.2 ultra sport, 6spd manual all zooted up 2005.5 A4 with the new suspension and A6 MMI, etc etc etc -- for .5% price increase -- well, I can wait 4 or 5 months for that!
I am biased, as you know, but I to this very moment, think the A4 1.8T quattro with ultra sport is both a good looking and good performing car -- it "almost" makes you forget it is a 4 cylinder.
I also drove a 2004 A4 3.0 leftover (without Ultra Sport) -- I thought the overall feel of the 1.8T was much more performance oriented -- I'd swear it felt quicker than the 3.0 in fact.
But, I could be wrong.
The current generation A4 doesn't offer Nav on the 1.8T; therefore, I am thinking that the 2005.5 2.0T will not offer it either.
I really hope they do because I think the 2.oT engine sounds awesome and I would like a smaller engine. You know, its the environmentalist in me! ;-)
Hurt me.
That shift seems to be a frustration or weariness perhaps with European cars' (not just Audis, for the record) reliability.
Long a proponent of "no boring cars," or "performance" first, perhaps I can share with you that I too may be growing a bit weary.
Last Friday night, my wife and I decided we would take her 2003 TT to Columbus (~100 miles from Cincinnati) to visit relatives. We almost always take my 2003 allroad, and at 37,000 miles on the allroad and only 30,000 on the TT, it seemed that every little 200 mile round trip we could save would keep me in the original warranty while I make up my mind on the replacement car for me.
So, she pulls into our garage and notices that the brake lights and center high mount stop light remained "on." No matter what we tried, the lights would not go off. We knew that the battery would die, so, at 9:30PM we drove to the Audi dealership, filled out a repair form and dropped it and the key into the early bird drop off.
I called the dealership at 8AM (they have Saturday Service hours) and explained the situation. They were "overbooked" but offered a loaner car either then or first thing Monday morning. We opted for the Monday morning loaner since we were, after all, on our way to Columbus and really didn't need the car at that time.
The "cost" in time and aggravation would take another 19 paragraphs to relay. Suffice it to say, it was a simple switch that had somehow failed in the "on position." A loaner was provided and, in total, three trips to the dealer were required for a variety of reasons (briefcase transfer, garage door opener issue, car on wash rack when promised and many very insignificant issues that made the ordeal snowball into "costing" about 4 hours of my wife's time -- she's an attorney -- think about the cost per hour or, better said, the lost opportunity [cost].)
She said -- "I know in 30,000 miles this is the first real pain in the neck, but -- but, I just wonder if that Acura would put me through this kind of pain at such a 'young age'?"
My wife loves the TT, loves a manual transmission -- that is, she has been Performance & Safety, Fun, and Reliability (in that order) ever since I met her almost 30 years ago (when we were in college in the '70's.)
It seems that she, like so many other posters here, are just growing weary of the little bits and pieces of unreliability these European cars are apparently fraught with.
I used to think the American cars were very unreliable -- but our relatives (in Columbus) have cars more than 5 years old (one GM and one Ford product) and they perform in an uninspired or uninspiring fashion, probably aren't quite as safe are not much fun, but -- heck -- they "never" seem to be undrivable or unreliable.
Maybe its "us" but I feel, at 37,000 miles that I need to tweak this that and the other thing on my car -- and my wife is now "cautious" and wonders "what will inconvenience me next" -- on a 2003, 30,000 mile young European car for Pity's sake!
I read the gripes and moans about Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Saab, VW and Volvo -- the cars are unreliable (so many posters say), the dealers are incompetent and although the cars often receive raves for performance -- it just seems that in the current climate (recession, 9-11, divisive presidential campaigns, rising interest rates, and on and on) performance just may no longer be enough to mitigate the European's long-standing reputation for less reliable cars.
I read an article that said, "people" -- since the recession and 9-11 -- have shifted their thoughts from "being the best that can be" to a culture of "good enough."
I hope this isn't true -- but slicing out two attributes, performance and reliability, I, for one, used to think that performance would always trump reliability (to a certain extent).
Now, I'm a bit less certain of that. Perhaps, the best you can be is now shifting "our" thoughts away from performance and toward reliability.
I reserve the right to, as my 90 year old mother would say, "let this pass" (as in this too shall pass, my son).
But, I am weary of such disruptions -- and those folks on the Japanese town-halls either have really low expectations or their Acuras and Lexus cars truly are darn near bullet proof.
What a revoltin' development.
As you were.
Where I am going with this is: my previous two vehicles have been a '98 323i and an '02 C320. I have enjoyed driving them both, and I appreciate all the advanced technology and safety features they offer. BUT, I am scared to death to own any German car after the warranty expires. So I have to ask myself, do I continue to get a new German car every 3 to 4 years (which always keeps me with a hefty payment)? Or do I buy Japanese and keep the vehicle 7 to 10 years (like my wife has always done, and she has never had a reliability problem)? It makes a lot more financial sense to buy Japanese. And, can you put a price on peace of mind?
Decisions, decisions. The Germans (BMW, Audi, VW, and Mercedes) have a lot of work to do to improve quality control. I have been a relatively satisfied customer and I am thinking about leaving them. Imagine someone who got a lemon. They have lost this customer for life.
I've had my current car, a Honda, at the dealer for numerous small items. And one major item which required a multi-day drop off, at about 22K. My most recent trip to the dealer resulted in a call at 4:00pm when they said they couldn't get it in, so I had to go the next day (again) at 7:30am to drop it off.
I've had a water stain in my headliner since about 2K, I know have 38K mi. I first mentioned it to them at 2K and they said they would clean it. Next time I came in they forgot about it. The next time they said they would need to order it, but this never happened. The last time in, they ordered a new headliner and said they would call me when it arrived; they never did.
When I had my Audi, I wouldn't have tolerated this type of service; and would have been very vocal about the lack of reliability. But now with a Honda my mentality switched to "it's good enough", "doesn't really matter, it's only a Honda". When I had my Audi, I even had the dealer re-adjust the glove compartment latch because I wanted it to open a little easier...everything was perfect and immaculate on my Audi.
Just to add to some anecdotal evidence...50% of the people I know who have Honda Odyssey's had their transmissions fail; though that's only 4 people.
They are lovely cars, but not to be relied upon.
If you are willing to pay for the extended Audi coverage, you will also not have too much to fret about.
However, the cost of keeping a European car beyond the warranty period is breathtaking.
The Japanese Pundits on the Town Hall here generally proclaim that their cars are virtually invulnerable. While I cannot attest to these claims, I can hardly dispute them as they seem to be so numerous.
I have been such an Audi fan for so long that I am not a good source of objective information. My historic bent has been to believe performance trumps reliability. I have, as noted recently, grown far less tolerant of the "constant" care and feeding that European cars seem to require -- meanwhile my Japanese car owning friends and associates think a visit to the dealership every 100,000 miles is a bit intrusive.
As the man (RR) once said in a famous joke, "there must be a pony in there somewhere!"
"The cost of keeping a european car past the warranty is breathtaking."
Let's see. My 328i is about to hit 100,000 miles.
$50 repair to dash.
roughly $1600 in general upkeep. (including upcoming inspection/brakes)
If you go to a honda dealer for all the suggested upkeep, you will pay a lot of money. A friend of mine was billed $100 for his honda coupe for the 6,000 mile oil change and inspection. He's sorry he didn't get nicer car, when he tallied the expenses and realized he could have gotten a c230 or a saab.
The fact is, the cost of keeping a european vs japanese car is typically of the order of $100-$150 a year.
example:
TSX ownership cost: $32,851(intellichoice)
a4 ownership cost: $31,821(same)
The TSX has more stock options so the a4 might be a bit more, but i know what personally would make me happier.
I'm not going to get a car i don't like vs a car i like over a couple of bucks a month.
Any modern car can and will likely have expensive repairs. I'd get an extended warranty on anything, and learn to relax.
dave
I've used this analogy before; if you give a couch to a grandma and a similar couch to frat boys I can guarantee with much certainty that grandma's couch will last longer and be in better condition after 4 years. If you give a different model to the frat boys, can you really infer that grandma's couch was of better quality or more reliable?
I've found most of the cars of owned have had a similar amount of problems; from Audi to Honda. I drive pretty hard (can't help it, personality trait, perhaps a therapist could help) and expect that repairs will come.
I can't recall the last time I've seen a Camry driving "aggressively", or by anybody under 50 (kidding here).
I'm more impressed with the 3 series reliability (CR) than an LS400, since it should be driven aggressively.
The odd electrical problem does seem to have plagued European manufactures more than Japanese. It would be beneficial if there were some analysis as to the cause of reliability, or lack thereof, instead of counting the number of visits to a dealer...more of a statement to CR and similar establishments.
I agree...Go for the Audi
Now, for those of us with one vehicle and one driver in the ‘family’, such inconvenience and ‘cost’ is increased even more.
I do not live close to anyone else that works near me. I usually need to be at work before typical automotive dealership service departments are even open. And I happen not to live or work near where public transport could provide a reasonable alternative for my work commute. And arranging a loaner for overnight before service is required (a hassle, at best) is only possible if I know ahead of time that something is going to require unscheduled service. (Almost an oxymoron.)
Anyway – Mark – you have hit exactly my concern regarding reliability. I do not expect to own an expensive car past warrantee. So the $$ cost of any diagnostic and repair work is not the issue. But my (personal and professional) time and inconvenience are an issue.
For me.
YMMV.
- Ray
Does a semi-automatic Paradigm Shift have 5 speeds – or 6???
(Kidding.)
Many of the postings on this town hall (and other European halls within the Edmunds group) do seem to proclaim that these otherwise fine cars are pretty lousy on a reliability scale. The Lexus and Acura boards seem to be just the opposite -- with posters routinely suggesting that their 100,000+ mile cars are soon approaching middle age (or words to that effect).
Maybe, it is a paradigm shift (6 speed) maybe it is that the personality types who buy an Acura don't drive agressively. I don't know. The beauty of the web is the ability for such large numbers of people to participate -- and that "ought" to smoothe out the responses somewhat.
Folks almost univerally love their German (and other European) cars performance, looks, features, safety, etc. But, if and/or when they care to opine on the issue of reliability it is the rare bird who says life to date costs are $50 and $1600 in maintenance. Indeed, to read some postings, VW's cost $25,000 to buy and a like amount to keep.
Other's talk about their $17,000 Audi engine repairs and how they have had to darn near go chapter or sue Audi. Even the odd blown Volvo or BMW or Mercedes [component] at an almost unimaginable young age pepper the writings here.
My personal bent is to not have ANY car, from ANY vendor be w/o warranty -- but the Japanese folks seem to think, ". . .we don't need no stinkin' warranty. . ."
My bias, still to a new Audi A4 or A6, notwithstanding, has been effected by all this dialog -- and that is why I do plan to seriously consider Acrua's new RL and even Chryco's 300C AWD.
I may end up with another Audi (my 28th) -- but THIS time, I will at least have tested the competition.
I frankly tend to believe that the bullet proof German is the exception as I also tend to believe that the unreliable Japanese is too.
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Audi Owners: Future Models
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Any other recent information available to confirm or deny?
Thanks,
- Ray
Thinking the 3.2 6 speed Tip. may be worth test driving . . .
I'm interested to see how the S-Line will look when it is released in the Fall of 2005. The pictures they had of the S-Line package didn't include any of the exterior extras (bodykit, wheels, etc.).
The only thing is I read in audiworld the S line will be available as an option. It includes the following:
S line sports package which lowers the car by 20 millimeters and includes firmer shock absorber/spring rates and 7.5x17 or even 8x18-inch wheels. Also includes visual logos in the front grille and on the rear rubbing strips, special inlays for the driver's area, sports seats with lumbar support for driver and passenger plus electric adjustment and various 3-spoke leather steering wheels.
The S line exterior package gives the body a particularly sporty look thanks to a radiator grille with S line grid pattern, an original design for the front and rear bumpers and a rear spoiler for the saloon.
Soooo, sounds to me like that will be avail. and would be perfect with the 6 speed Tip.
What do you guys think?
They will have the Navigation Plus which is the same system as the 2005 A6 MMI but the controls will NOT be mounted below the shifter but where the stereo would be. I am okay with this.
They have a larger center armrest console available as well as a ton of optional steering wheels.
On audiworld I read that the 2005.5 is getting all the other upgrades and options as the 2005 A6. This will match earlier speculation that the A8 / A6 / & A4 will all have the same exterior and interior looks.
In addition, audiworld said the S line will be available in March as well.
My question ( Mark ) is what is the difference between the Ultra Sport and the S line?????????
Also, back to a question I asked you in June Mark, now that we know the body style is closely matching the 2005 A6 and all the options the A6 offers will be available in the 2005.5 as well; what is going to be the difference in the 2006 A4 vs. the 2005.5???????????
The only thing i could think is that the current MMI on the A6 will be an option on the 2006 A4 but not on the 2005.5. The instrument panel will be changed to the A6 style as well. For the most part tho I think it shouldn't be too different.
Mark, you have a pretty good relationship with your Audi dealer, when you get by there next, would you mind inquiring about these questions for us as well as any other dirt you can dig up.
As well, anyone else hear anything please let us know!
Thanks
Several A6 3.2's (presold are inbound as are 2 unsold ones). I have been talking with other 2.7T Audi A6 owners who are in the final 6 months of their leases and in a quandry.
I with no glee, remind all here, that I wrote and wrote again the question "what were they thinking?" when I heard the new 3.2 A6 would have 255 HP, which is 5 more than the last A6 2.7T and 10 less than the outgoing A6 2.7T S-line.
Moreover, the new A6, even with its weight saving measures is bigger and heavier than the outgoing A6 2.7T (either in standard or S-line guise).
So, my Audi dealer calls to tell me about the number of 2001 & 2002 A6 2.7T's coming off leases -- guess what?
Yep -- the new A6 is somehow being perceived more as a replacement for the outgoing 3.0 rather than the 2.7T and the 2.7T customers are thinking they have been left out in the cold (with respect to performance).
I do not know the statistics, someone does however, but of the A6's sold since the 2.7T's were brought to market, it "appears" that the 2.7T was the "sales champeen!" The 4.2 was a rare bird and there were quite a few 3.0's.
Using only the MSRP as a guide, the new A6 3.2 is at the outgoing S-Line price when similarly equipped as much as is possible given the fact that the new A6 is, well, NEW!
Like me, these folks are wondering, at a loaded price of $51,500 + $720 shipping, what this 3.2 must "perform like."
Moreover, there are plenty of new cars in that price range that, on paper at least, look to be at a REAL performance advantage over the A6 3.2.
But, "I told you so," provides little comfort.
To the question. The real differences, to date, between Ultra Sport and S-Line are overwhelmingly cosmetic. When pressed, my dealer admits the only difference besides the logos he can come up with is that the S-Line Audis have a "special" perforated steering wheel with a glintzy (a sort of made up word, if you care) "S-Line" red metal and chrome insignia on the base of the steering wheel. Woo woo!
Surely (and stop calling me that) there must be some other differentiation -- alas, or alack, my dealer seems to think the thrust is to phase out the Ultra Sport designation and standardize on the S-Line theme throughout the entire model line.
S-Line is "S" light, if you ask me, but the principal NON cosmetic differences (between S-Line and standard) are real: bigger wheels and tires, lowered coefficient of friction and lowered and stiffened suspension, bigger and grippier steering wheel, sport seats, special leather treatments, steering wheels that should decrease the human hand's output of persperation and perhaps chrome tips (the latter is primarily cosmetic, I'll grant).
I so want to have the ability to test a new A6 with Sport Package (or S-line if one is avail) and an A4 3.2 stick with Ultra sport or S-line whatever the heck they call it.
Here is the only piece of info I could get: Orders for the 2005.5 A4 will be taken beginning in December 2004 for late Feb early March delivery.
Drive it like you live!
One observation I have acknowledged after visiting the local audi dealership and viewing the 2005 A6 is the majority of options on the 2005 A6 will be available on the 2005.5 A4. For example, I enjoyed the 12 way sport seat on the A6 as well as the upgraded leather, so since the A4 is getting the exact same option, this is a no brainer order for me.
On the UK website you can see all the available options like steering wheel choices, rim choices, front center arm rest thingy, S line package, xenon, etc etc.
The only question Mark brought up that I am a little skeptical on is will they have a manual option for the 3.2 FSI A4 S line or will it only come in the Tiptronic like the A6 3.2 and 4.2? Either way it will be a nice car and should with the weight difference of at least 300 pounds (A6 3.2 vs. the A4 3.2) move the 0-60 Tip down to the 6.5 or 6.7 range.
Any thoughts?
Upgraded radio system
Aluminium window trims framing the exterior windows
Quattro GmbH body styling in body color
Electric rear windows ( woopie )
Leather gear knob, gaiter(?) and hand brake
Upgraded cloth upholstery ( which you add option of leather anyway)
Sports suspension by GmbH ( lowering 20mm )
Heated and Electric Door mirrors with washer jets
Front sport seats including electric lumbar support
3 -spoke leather steering wheel - part perforated
upgraded 235/45 R17 tires
upgraded 7J 17" 5 twin spoke alloy wheels
I think there prob. is a couple other options that will come along for NA that is not available in the UK like:
firmer shock absorbers/spring rates
logos on the front grille and rear rubbing strips
S-line grid pattern on the grille
rear spoiler
original design for the front and rear bumpers
Anyway, sounds pretty exciting to me. Sign me up please!
Pretty darn cool.
Plus at the end you can download a pdf file of the specs, options etc.
Lots of good info here. It appears there will not be an option for Manual on the 3.2FSI but only Tiptronic. Confirms options within the S-line option, 0-62 at 6.9 sec so maybe 0-60 in 6.7 / 6.8 sec via Tip. Confirms Bluetooth and Satellite Navigation Plus based on the current MMI on the A6.
Later
The S-Line package will not be available upon the initial release. This package should appear in the USA in the Fall of 2005.
Rumour has it that a RS4 sedan will come out as a 2006 model since they're ending production of the RS6.
Where is the article or information to suggest it would not be out until the fall?
The S-Line package is not listed as an available option for the initial release. While they had pictures of an A4 with the S-Line package, it only had the interior options shown. The exterior only had the S-Line badge affixed to the grill.
In Europe, you should be able to get the S-Line in 3 different packages: interior only, exterior only, and both together. For the North American market, we're supposed to get the S-Line package that will have both the interior and exterior options (including a body kit for a noteable visual difference). It is my opinion that the exterior packages were not yet ready when they unveiled the B7 models at the auto show in Paris.
I have not seen any documentation that the S-Line package will be available right away, but I've seen various conversations on other Audi forums that suggest that the S-Line option will be made available in the fall of 2005.
I would say, NO Sline for 6 months after US roll out, I hope I am wrong.
Thanks
Here are 2 seperate links that talk about the S-line options for the new 2005.5 A4.
Let me know what you guys think!
p.s. doesn't say anything about coming as 2006 model or as a later version after initial introduction.
http://www.news.kak.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=news&- file=article&sid=1591
( scroll down to the end of the article to read about the S-line info)
http://www.audiworld.com/news/04/b7a4/index.html
(scroll down to the end of this article also to read about the S-line info)
Ultra sport actually includes, at this time, more than the press info claims about S-Line. But, I think that is not the entire story.
S-Line thus far has included "mild" sporting changes and visual cues -- for example, sport seats, ground effects, spoilers, steering wheel, trim, shift knob and larger wheels and summer only tires, etc.
The S-Line A6 2.7T seemed to break the rule of no engine changes by virtue of its +15 HP bump and +22 bump in torque. Other S-Lines have generally only been ground effects, sport suspensions, and the like (as I noted above).
It is my recollection that there will be in a given Audi model 4 versions: A4 (standard) A4 S-Line A4 as S4 and A4 as RS4 -- this would, theoretically be available in the A3, A4, A6 and A8 lines with introductions of S and RS versions NOT being available from launch.
Hence, the new A4 (and A6, one would imagine) would offer S-Line versions within the first 6 months from launch, followed shortly thereafter or possibly at the same time by "true" S class cars followed perhaps at year two with the RS versions.
There is some evidence of this already with the current A4 which has a sticker reading Ultra sport, but with Sline insignias on the steering wheel and elsewhere on the body. The new A6 already has a full Sline body kit available, too (at least in Europe).
The Sline like kit for the new A6 is from Votex Gmbh and can be seen on line. Although this is not an official Sline kit, it stands to reason that Audi and Audi USA will soon bring this to market in the soich fo' mo' money! I'd buy an A6 Ultra sport if I were to buy an A6 and if that option were for sale (and I wouldn't care if they called it Ultra Sport or Sline).
I am still holding off for certain until more details become known about the new A4.
The Ultra Sport option never did make it to the configurator, but eveyone seemed to know about it.
I just call it S-Lite, but that is me.
I thought I had zeroed in on a 2005 Audi A4 1.8T quattro lease. (I don't think the extra $$ for the 3.0 will be worth it). The dealer seems ready to give me a very attractive deal on one at the moment and probably through year end. But, he mentioned that the A4 was getting a face lift for 1st qtr 05. (confirmed in your postings).
In your opinion, do you think there will be competitive deals on the new 2.0T in Feb or should I just pull the trigger and get the 1.8T before year end? Will there be a noticeable performance difference?
I am also thinking that there may be an outside chance that I get steal on a 3.0 as the year comes to a close.
I will also say that I am second guessing this potential purchase as I read more about reliability issues. I need this car to work every day. I will also say that I am going to look at the G35 and see what that is like.
How could a car that good looking (A4) potentially have so many problems. It sounds like buying one is along the lines of marrying a hot model only to find out that she mental issues. But, I guess if she let you sleep with her sister (getting a loaner) every time she flips out it could work.
Typically, it has been the case for Audi AG to release a new model to the European market first before allowing it to be introduced here in the USA. Also, the options and packages will be different (different grouping and/or lack of certain choices) to target the taste of the American consumer.
Audi AG has been offering an S-Line package on their models for several years, but decided originally not to offer it here. Instead, they later chose to create an Ultrasport package for the A4 that contains most (but not all) of the items found in the S-Line. Now, Audi want's to bring in the S-Line to North America so it can be standardized globally.
Since it is not the policy of this forum to post links to other auto discussion sites, I will say that the site you've referenced in your second link contains postings from members who were able to obtain, scan, and post the complete US Market Introduction Order Guide on what will be initially made available to the USA for the B7 A4 2.0T and 3.2 Avant and Sedan (check the B7 A4 forum on that site). On that sheet, there is no mention of the avialability of the S-Line package. You can get a Sport package, but that's no different from the current Sport package available today.
I agree with Mark's view that there will be four levels to choose for the A4 lineup: Base, S-Line, S, and RS. We will get to see the Base model arrive in Fabruary/March of 2005. The S-Line may show up as soon as 3 months later, but more likely to be 6 months later as it would be released with the arrival of the S model. The RS model would then show up early in 2006 - one year after the introduction of the B7 A4. The articles you're viewing would mention release timelines for the European market which never matches the North American release schedule.
The B6 A4 is a beautiful car (biased view here
There has been some problems with the earlier releases of the B6 A4 model (I know as I have one), but the larger issues that were of concern to everyone was addressed and corrected, so the 2005 A4 should be among the best built for this model. You may find a small glitch (small squeak or rattle), but it's something that is quickly remedied by the service team at no cost to you. You also can't beat the 4 year / 50,000 mile free maintenance plan.
I've had mine now for 3 years and have driven 80,000 miles. With all that driving, the car has maintained it's impeccable fit and finish. The handling is crisp and precise, and the performance remains top notch. I'm driving approximately 60 miles a day for work (Akron to Cleveland), so I know how that kind of commute can be. The A4 makes the drive to be a pleasant start to the day and a great way to unwind at the end.
Go for the A4. You'll be glad you did.