VW Jetta TDI

ksmigel · August 2008

These are exciting times! I love the VW Jetta TDI, and it looks like a lot more manufacturers are going to quickly bring turbo diesel models to the U.S.

The latest announcement is Ford's Fiesta, which is already sold in Europe. It's a slower animal than the Jetta TDI, given it's 90 horsepower versus 140 for the Jetta, but it gets rave reviews for being to even handle German highways, and gets a stunning 67.5mpg! :surprise:

Edmund's Inside Line First Drive - Ford Fiesta Turbo

sebring95 · August 2008

90hp in that shrimp shouldn't be too bad. Probably not gonna win any drag races, but I bet it's pretty good once moving.

highmiler650 · August 2008

In the US that would be 56.2 MPG.

bristol2 · August 2008

I hate to say it, but there's nothing in the article to suggest that Ford is bringing the diesel version here. I want to believe that they would but Ford is yet to make a really good decision this decade for the US market.

inlarry · August 2008

Does anyone else who owns a pre-2007 VW diesel have any comparison regarding real world fuel economy using ULSD (15ppm)vs. "regular" low sulphur (500ppm) diesel? It may just be me but I seem to notice a definite drop in fuel economy when I use ULSD in my 2005 Jetta. At first I thought it was just the car, but then I happened to fill up on a tank of 500ppm at a local station and noticed an almost 25% increase in fuel economy (39-42mpg on ULSD vs. 48-51 on 500ppm diesel).

Does anyone else have an experience like this or am I just crazy? I can't attribute it to my driving habits since I drive the same speed, route and distances to and from work every day. I've also noticed the mileage boost seems to "linger" on my next tank if I happen to fill up next time on ULSD. However, if I fill up twice on ULSD I drop back to the low 40's.

I first noticed my mileage drop about 6 months ago when most of my local stations switched from 500ppm to 15ppm diesel. Last year when I took a road trip to Tennessee I averaged 52mpg, but on the same trip this year averaged only 41mpg. However, I never started to put two-and-two together until recently.

Anyone?

sebring95 · August 2008

Are you buying from the same station? While sulphur content shouldn't effect performance, the fuel itself could. It could have a lower cetane which is what I typically noticed would effect mpg the most. I tried to always run BP Diesel Supreme which was a 15ppm high-cetane fuel. I got slightly better mpg along with quieter operation and zero smoke, even on cold startup. If I filled on normal diesel I could immediately notice a difference. So I would not give up on the ULSD but perhaps shop around for a better fuel. Many local stations will buy fuel from the same distributor so it could take some shopping around. And brand-name doesn't always mean that's the fuel they're using, particularly diesel. There were only two stations within 30 miles of me that actually carried BP Diesel Supreme. The other BP stations bought from a no-name regional carrier.

bpeebles · August 2008

I agree with sebring95 - It is the CETANE which has the biggest affect on MPG. The VW TDI engines are really rated for European fuel. The diesel in NorthAmerica does not quite meet the cetane which the TDI is specd. for.

That is why I always add ~6oz PowerService diesel fuel additive with each fillup. Not only does the PowerService increase the cetane to where the engine wants it... I also get added lubricant for the expensive injection pumps. (And some injector-cleaning detergents too)

I log every drop of fuel that goes into my TDI and keep a spreadsheet of MPG. There is no question that when my wife fills the car (and does not add PowerService) that I lose about 3-5 MPG.

Anyone who drives a TDI in NorthAmerica should consider fuel additive as part of owning a diesel engine. PowerService is available at any WallyMart. (Use GREY bottle in summer and WHITE bottle in winter)

malmouza · August 2008

This bring me to the question of whether the new low sulfure diesel have enough lubrication or not? My guess, this new Diesel fuel is lucking the lubricatoin that allow the high compression diesel engine to operate with extrem efficiency. As far as the new Diesel engines are concerned the design did take in account the new fuel molecular structure. but the fact that the new Diesel engine fuel efficiency is falling short of the previous engine results is because of the new Catalytic converter is too restitrictive, and the fact that the chemical reaction in this enclosure require the computer to release extra diesel in the catalytic converter to get rid of NOx. still 41 MPG for a car the size of Jetta is a good number.

ed_grant · August 2008

I have an 06 TDI with all options including DSG. I chose the DGS over the manual because the DSG gave better acceleration, especially in S mode. The BIG drwaback is the maintenance cost - over 500.00 at 80K miles. The trans needs an oil change but the trans is sealed!

I live in the Tampa area andam considering setting up a biodiesel conversion. Would anyone from the Tampa area like to participate? The basic set up would be 1200.00 but a better (more gallons less effort) can be had for 4000.00 split 5-8 ways would make the capital cost less with more efficient production of 200 gals per week.

malmouza · August 2008

I do not think the Biodiesel is good idea. They are a lot of people that had the engine rebuilt or the injectors changed because they get glazed from overheating. Biodiesel is fuel that has a high percentage of lubricity, and thats translated to high energy and heat. So, the Diesel engine need to be converted prior to using the Biodiesel or else youll be looking at anywhere from $600 to change the injectors to $4000 for new engine. I do not think its worth the saving you expect to make from using Biodiesel. But there is a good way of taking advantage of the Biodiesel; by mixing regular diesel with 20% biodiesel, it will give you more lubrication that is lacking from the new low sulfur diesel.

gagrice · August 2008

There are a lot of people using 100% biodiesel with NO problems at all. I provided a list of the companies that only use biodiesel in their fleet. Most have VW TDI cars that run on B100. There is a problem with biodiesel and older diesels in that it is a solvent that will clean out the fuel lines. You would need to change your fuel filter often until all that crap is cleaned out. I have not read one case of a vehicle running on just biodiesel being damaged. It will gel in cold weather. It is ideal fuel for people in warm climates like CA. It is also the only practical renewable fuel. I do not advocate making biodiesel from food stocks. Until algae biodiesel is widely available waste oil is the best source.

Willie Nelson uses B100 in his Mercedes he keeps on Maui. There is no downside running B100 where it is available. Do not confuse biodiesel with waste vegetable oil. They are NOT the same. This company has had a lot of success over the last several years renting VW Beetles that only use biodiesel.

http://www.bio-beetle.com/index.html

dieselfitter1 · August 2008

A lot of people get Biodiesel and Waste Vegetable Oil Confused. Biodiesel is made from WVO(waste vegetable oil)

Biodiesel is made by removing the Glycerine from the WVO,by various processes,including the use of Lye and Methanol.This causes the glycerine to separate from the oil.

WVO is filtered using a 10 micron or better filter.If there is a chance of water contamination,then it is also dewatered.

A WVO conversion involves the use of a Tank Heater,Heated Filter,Line Heater,Switchover Valve,etc. 2 tanks are used,diesel and vegoil.Car is started and warmed up on diesel,then switched to vegoil. It is switched over to diesel just before(3 minutes) arriving at your destination.

malmouza · August 2008

I do not think you're getting the full story. Most people that have success with the biodiesel from WVO, had their engine converted with separate tank for the Biodiesel. They start the car on regular diesel and switch to biodiesel after the engine is warm. Go to TDI forum and you will see how many problems people are having with the use of biodiesel. Personally I will not venture in using Biodiesel in my car unless my car is junk car and I do not care what going to happen to the engine.
Concerning the Biodiesel everybody knows where the biodiesel comes from. You can just google it I will get tremendous amount of information.

gagrice · August 2008

You are misinformed. Biodiesel is a product that can be made from waste vegetable oil and many other things including soy beans, rapeseed, and algae. I agree that running WVO has its problems. Biodiesel is a direct replacement for diesel. You do not use the two tank system with biodiesel. You do NOT get biodiesel from your local chinese restaurant. You get old cooking oil. It is NOT the same as biodiesel.

http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/bdusage.PDF

malmouza · August 2008

You are just stating what I already said. Biodiesel can be made from different sources, WVO, Algae, soy beans, rapeseed,
You are misinformed. Biodiesel is a product that can be made from waste vegetable oil and many other things.
Restaurant oil can be converted to fuel, but that is a messy process. Only a retired person or someone with a lot of time in his hand want to start making his own fuel. Personally I prefer to buy it, and use my time to enjoy life, not brew fuel in my garage until I blow up the house then my losses will be tremendous. Didnt you learn about that guy from UK that blow up his garage with second degree burn? What kind of saving he made, nothing, on the contrary he ended up we big medical bill, and 6 months of treatment. Personally I will not go that route.

gagrice · August 2008

I have no desire to gather old cooking oil and make my own fuel. You said in your previous post that biodiesel needed to be in a second tank and the car started on regular diesel. That is NOT true. There are people with dual tanks that burn old cooking oil directly in their diesel engines. That is not the same as using biodiesel. Biodiesel if bought from a reputable dealer is a very good fuel to run in a modern diesel engine. Most biodiesel has a higher cetane rating than most diesel sold.

Biodiesel generally has a cetane rating of between 50-60 whereas diesel fuel generally has a cetane rating of between 40-50. Biodiesel?s higher cetane rating is due to its higher oxygen content and superior combustion properties.

That in turn will give you better mileage. As some one has already posted BP ULSD has a cetane rating of about 53 and gives very good MPG.

malmouza · August 2008

I was reading about the auto news, and I run into this report from Bob Lutz the head of GM design division. And I found he is argument about GM that has no intent to bring Diesel in USA very interesting, he claim that the number of car in Europe running on Diesel are shrinking because the difference between the two fuel is not anymore a justification to buy Diesel. But anyway read the interview, and make your own judgment; http://www.leftlanenews.com/lutz-interview-part-2-no-diesels-volt-future.html.

blueguydotcom · August 2008

Lutz is nutz.

pat · August 2008

Okay, let's let go of this particular thread. We have a tendency to get in deep trouble here when we go too far from the actual topic.

altair4 · August 2008

Lutz' analysis of the pricing a diesel vehicle meeting the latest North American and Euro pollution specs doesn't seem to be borne out by the prices that VW is charging compared to the 2.0T gasoline engine Jetta. So, is VW losing money on every car they sell? His fuel efficiency differential of 20% seems to be off the mark, too, based on the VW experience.

FWIW, Lutz has always been down on diesels for the North American market.

BTW, I'd like to see the latest sales numbers on gasoline vs. diesel engines in Europe. Not just overall numbers, but also by car size category.

malmouza · August 2008

I posted this message just for informational purpose. I hope I did not offend any diesel owner with my comments. I just wanted to let everybody know that GM has no intention of bringing their Diesel cars from Europe, but they are investing big time in gasoline engine development. They just released pictures of the new Chevy Cruze; it is supposed to get 45 MPG, using technology like low rolling resistance tires, tweaking the VVT, and using direct injection that allow precise release of fuel in the combustion chamber. This will be a big competitor to Jetta diesel, Honda Civic, Hyundai Elantra, and Mazda3. In the next 2 years we are going to see a big competition between manufacturer trying to gain market share. And the best of all; the consumer is the one who is going to win in this process.

gagrice · August 2008

With GM it seems it is always two years in the future. Right today you can buy a VW Jetta Sportswagen TDI that will get 44 MPG out on the highway. No other car maker selling in the USA can come close in a 3300 lb vehicle. The Saturn Astra which shares the Cruze platform is much smaller, lighter and gets 32 MPG highway.

I will believe it when I see it with a 3300 lb gas station wagon getting 45 MPG. You can have the LRR tires. I would not own a vehicle with them. My safety is more important than saving a couple MPG with tires that are unsafe at any speed.

I agree that the sooner the other automakers get something to compete with the VW Jetta TDI it will be good for the consumers.

ruking1 · August 2008

Indeed the VW TDI Jetta sets the bar for the so called future "fuel" guzzlers albeit 44-56 mpg

Not many (in like category) currently come close. If one does the math, per mile driven the cost is higher than ever. Be that as it may, Europe already has the 55-70 mpg models.

olive4 · August 2008

Can anyone tell me the difference between a 2009 TDI and 2009 TDI Loyal edition? One dealer told me that the only difference is a sunroof, another told me it's a sunroof and premium sound with extra speakers, one told me it's a sunroof and bluetooth....so I'm not sure what the real story is.

bpeebles · August 2008

Might I suggest that instead of asking that question on the internet that you simply pick up a brochure from your friendly neighborhood VW dealership and read thru it. DONT trust what sales-folks say.

c280 · August 2008

"Can anyone tell me the difference between a 2009 TDI and 2009 TDI Loyal edition"

MSRP for the Loyal edition Sedan: MSRP for the TDI-Sedan
$22,440.00 manual $21,990.00 manual
$23,540.00 DSG $23,090.00 DSG

The Loyal edition includes sunroof and DSG as part of the package but for the TDI you have to pay $1,000.00 for sunroof and $1,100.00 for the DSG. The Loyal edition was to be the teaser car and for the loyal TDI fan club that would pay the dealer mark up and also to be the first set of cars allocated to the dealers. But it appears that VW released the TDIs earlier than expected so you ended paying more because of the DSG and sunroof. However, there were some early TDIs without sunroof and with manual. I don't believe the Loyal edition (demo) had bluetooth. I think that's an option you pay for. If you can get the Loyal edition at the MSRP above I would take it.

bpeebles · August 2008

I agree with malmouza on this one.

Although the term "biodiesel" is all the rage right now....there are serious issues with using it in a modern diesel engine. One of the biggest issues is the inconsistant mixture and the possibility of destroying your injectors.

If you wish to experiment with "biodiesel", get yourself a pre-2004 VW TDI (before the pumpe-duse engine).

Here are some of the facts I have discovered about BD (biodiesel);
*)It costs more in fuel to plow/harrow/seed/harvest/make/haul BD than what you get out of the process. (IT IS A NEGITAVE RETURN!!)
*) BD is a very good solvent and tends to clean gunk from your fuel system.
*)When BD burns, it leaves a sticky residue that plugs up fuel injectors.(due to its chemical makeup)
*)It is essentually a chemical-soup to make BD there are a lot of ways to make bad BD.

m6user · August 2008

I was at at Chicago area dealer today and they did not have any brochures. They weren't particularly friendly either. Had "Market Adjustment" add-on to the tune of an additional $2000.

I'm pretty sure I read in a review of the demo TDIs that have been available for test drives that they are mostly done up in the Loyal edition and the article stated it includes a sunroof, upgraded radio, front air dam lip and rear trunk spoiler. The transmission is completely seperate item and not associated with the Loyal pkg.

sebring95 · August 2008

What kind of model name is "Loyal edition"? Should only previous TDI owners be able to buy that one? Should they also get the joy of over-paying because of their loyalty? I think I'll pretend I'm not a previous owner and maybe I can pay invoice on a non-loyal edition? :P

jkinzel · August 2008

I agree 100% scamming me for more money because Im loyal. Gee, thanks, but dont do me any favors.

I gave up on VW and bought a Ford Taurus. I know, apples to brussel sprouts, but Im happy with it, it is comfortable and should get better mileage than most cars its size.

It gets better mileage than the 1993 Explorer it replaces by 6mpg and it only has <300 miles on it.

littlerhody · August 2008

I picked up my 2009 TDI yesterday. Paid MSRP without any upcharge. Car came with a sunroof (I think most of the early ones are coming through that way) and manual tranny. So far I can say that it was worth the wait for this car. I drove about 100 plus miles yesterday (mixed driving) and according to the computer I averaged over 40 mpg. The torque on this car in 3rd and 4th gear is amazing. I assume that is the turbo doing its job. Fit and trim is nice especially for this price range. Engine runs smooth and quiet. Sound system is fine. My only complaint is a lack of a garage door opener system. I had to dig up my old garage door clicker. Overall I think it is a good value. And my son is happy since he got the old Maxima with 165K on the odometer.

m6user · August 2008

Maybe you missed something in your zeal to bash.

The Loyal edition costs about $450 more than the standard edition. For this huge sum of money you get a SUNROOF, FRONT AIR DAM LIP, REAR SPOILER AND AN UGRADED RADIO.

Now, I don't know about you but it seems to me that is a decent deal and to my knowledge anyone can buy the car---not just previous owners. Why they call it that I'm not real sure. I think they were going to use it in some kind of marketing campaign and then realized they wouldn't have to with the price of gas/diesel skyrocketing.

ruking1 · August 2008

Indeed, the "Loyal" only comes currently in the "white" color, or whatever it is being called. Since white is on my list of color choices, I'd be a buyer. Given the prices of all those additional things, it is a good deal. Having said that, I could take or leave all of them, with the upgraded radio being a firm maybe. I have had 7 sunroofs over the years, and given the choice would have only gotten 1/7 of them.

olive4 · August 2008

Unfortunately, the dealers in my area don't have brochures that include the TDI and there is no documentation I can find there that has it. That's why I asked the people on the forum in case they knew more.

sebring95 · August 2008

Maybe you missed something in your zeal to bash.

Maybe you missed this-------------------> :P

They can still use it in a marketing plan. All those that are loyal to the human race can buy at sticker price....maybe more if your dealer is a scurmudgeon. Save $500 on a sunroof and radio for prior TDI owners sounds good though. Those Loyal to white cars can get a white car? I'm full of ideas!

supermurph · August 2008

How do you know the Loyal Edition only comes in white? I also saw another post that said that they stopped producing them during July. I just ordered a blue one on Monday that should arrive around Thanksgiving.

ruking1 · August 2008

The dealer showed me the "loyal options" on the software, when I went to test drive one.

m6user · August 2008

Sorry, I didn't know what that symbol was or what "pblt" means.

micosilver · August 2008

Loyal Edition was never available to oder, they were distributed by VW. They came in different colors, manual and DSG, but no one was able to order them

Mico

supermurph · September 2008

You can look at a copy of the VW ordering guide here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2199360&postcount=232

I was confused just as you are with that. I wouldn't worry about the Loyal Edition unless a dealer has one that you are interested in buying. There were only a small number of them and you can't order one. You will see an end of production date (EOP) on the form. However, this will help you see what the difference is from the standard TDI. A nice guy on another forum cleared this up for me. Good luck!

chittychittybb · September 2008

You are able to buy the loyal editions. Some dealers are also selling the demos now that regular package cars are coming in. As this reference says, http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q_how_to/a5/jettachecklist.htm , the loyals have already been delivered to customers as well. Loyal was just a name for the early cars which came with an option package that was a good deal.

bpeebles · September 2008

Lets be clear about this. It is not possible to actually "order" a Volkswagen like one would a Chevy or a Dodge. When I ordered my Dodge truck, it was specifically built to my specifications and arrived at dealership in 3 weeks. The window sticker said "This truck built for Bruce Peebles." You will NEVER get that with a Volkswagen.

Instead, you can work with a participating dealership and submit your "preferences" for specific features/options. If one of these happens to come out of a build-cycle, it can be earmarked to be routed to your dealership. It may take months before your "preferences" are matched up.

Another way is to work with your participating dealership to review the VWs which already reside on other dealership lots. A participating dealership can do a "swap" with that dealership to get that vehicle into your hands.

The reason I specify "participating" dealership is because some of them are apparently unwilling or unable to use their computer to locate a vehicle for you. I know this 1st hand because I had to go thru 3 different VW dealerships before I found one that would work to get me EXACTLY what I was looking for. Once I found a participating VW dealership... my new car was on their lot within 3 days. (they did a 'swap' with another dealership in Rhode Island)

ruking1 · September 2008

but @ 109,000 miles I have had the TDI in twice, 1. coolant sensor 2. thermostat. Both parts were app 20 per piece retail. Both required G12 (coolant) top up also.

gloden · September 2008

Loyal Editions come in a variety of colors. I own a 2009 tdi w DSG in Reflex Silver. Freds tdi page has a listing of all the available options.

icat · September 2008

Anyone know the approx dealership price?

morin2 · September 2008

I'm considering the new Jetta Sportwagon TDI for a combined commuter (drive 107 miles/day) and kayak hauler. My concern is the keys. When kayaking, you have to expect that everything will get wet (in saltwater too). Can I use a key without the engine start transponder just to get in the car & then leave a transponder key hidden somewhere inside? Can the metal portion of the key be separated from the electronics to be carried on the water? I won't buy a car that has the electronic key only. Thanks!

ruking1 · September 2008

While this is no guarantee for the MY 2009, I did get a "normal" key (aka valet, maintenance, spare ) with the MY 2003 TDI. I would ask the dealer, but I bet they probably would be guessing, just as I am.

morey000 · September 2008

interesting question, to which I don't know the answer. However, I do know that you can buy a small waterproof pouch for about $3 at many camping, fishing or surfing shops.

morin2 · September 2008

Thanks - I thought of that - except that 1. waterproof containers often fail at the worst moment and 2. containers could become separated from me or the boat. My practice is to keep a plain key (like a valet key) in a mesh pocket of my PFD & was hoping to be able to continue that practice. As ruking also guessed correctly, I have not asked a dealer - after countless auto dealers have been unable to provide actual information on the products they sell. I could ask them to "just show me the keys" and see what happens. I refuse to buy any vehicle that cannot be opened by a simple key.

My first VW was a 1969 Squareback & I've had a few others - including a wonderful made-in-PA '87 Golf and a '90 diesel that took many minutes to reach 60mph. VW has missed their older traditional market who loved the sturdy simplicity of their older products by insisting on the latest gimcracks and gewkaws like their new keys among other things.

gagrice · September 2008

I am with you. I do not like the modern keys or keyless crap. I like a regular old key that unlocks the door and used in the ignition. A separate fob to unlock the doors is fine.

VW Jetta TDI

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