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Comments
p.s. a salesman thought there would be 1,500 assigned to the Canadian market.
Pros: Great power, no torque steer(!), comfy seating position.
Cons: gears are way too close together, clutch is ultra sensitive, massive understeer, 6 speed tranny is vague, not very tight in corners.
Sum up: Fun car and without the navi it's 31k, a pretty good deal. But the fact the engine is always on the boil bothered me. At only 50 mph in 3rd gear the tach was well over 4k. Freeway drives this car is going to get outright lousy mileage. Idiot salesman said the gearing was "euro spec". Huh, I own a European car and strangely the gears are tight in 1-5 and really tall in 6th.
Give it propper gearing, tighten up the suspension and dial in more oversteer and this car would be a gand slam.
Saturday I took a 33k fully loaded Mazdapseed6 out for a test drive. Obviously, I'd avoid the navi system (I can't pay 2k for a device that's worthless), so in reality the car's 31k.
Visually, the Mazdaspeed6 is more aggressive than the standard Mazda6 but it's certainly nothing special. The rims are pretty dorky, the body cladding is not my bag either but I do like the hood scoop and ZHP-esque lip spoiler. In the end, the looks won't sell me or dissuade me.
As for the interior, the seats are decent but they're not nearly as supportive as my ZHP's. The steering wheel felt small. All 4 windows are auto up and auto down (small thing but I love this about my BMW). The car comes with Mazda's version of comfort access and like BMW the remote can trigger the windows down (I use this feature a good 60-70% of the time with my 330i). If you forget to put the windows up, you can close the door and just touch a little opaque spot on the handle, forcing the windows closed...cool but not a deal maker or breaker.
Anyway, the 6 speed tranny pretty sloppy. It's vague, notchy and reminds me of the unit in Infiniti's G35. In other words, it's awful. I'm not sure but Mazda may have put some kind of junk on the shifter - like fake plastic chrome. I recall it was hot to the touch.
Anyway, I fired up the 2.3 liter 4 cylinder image and...well, there's no fanfare. The engine makes no real noise. The exhaust is just as mute. Again, I reflect on how I love the little subtle grumble of my 330i ZHP.
I engage the clutch, try to find 1st and...darnit, 3rd. God this thing is not to my liking. And I complain about my BMW's shifter! Rolling forward I begin to let the clutch out. Boom. Holy frijoles this thing catches instantly. The clutch pickup feels far more honda than VW/Audi/BMW. for the rest of the drive I never quite got used to the clutch. Perhaps this would come in time.
Anyway, the clutch snaps and car's at 3k-3.5k-4k, 5k, 6k really fast. And smoothly. No rush. No excitement. But not as fulfilling as the Audi 2.0T. Weird. Lack of engine sound and the car's frantic gearing may play a roll in how blah the engine and the car's acceleration feels.
I can't say for certain but I think I had to hit 3rd to get to 60. I was in 4th by 80 and 6th way before 100. The car's burning mega-high RPM at 100 mph. Okay, so that 19/25 mpg sticker wasn't a joke. This car will get flat out horrid gas mileage. Does it require premium? Does it even matter when the stuff is either 2.80 or $3 a gallon? Regardless, I'd expect 16-17 mpg with this car (I average 22 mpg in my 330i with mixed driving but long trips net 31 mpg). This seems like a little thing until you do the math...I'd assume with premium I'd spend at least $500 more a year on gas (18 mpg/15000*$3). Compared to an A3 I predict a $600 difference - 2.5k in 4 years makes a difference.
Why do I assume such horrible gas mileage? The gearing. The darned car forces you into 6th really fast or you're running around with the little turbo 4 boiling at 4k+. At 50 mph I noticed in 3rd the Mazdaspeed's RPMs were over 4k rpm.
As the first corners approached i noticed the car felt floaty and understeered. What the heck had Mazda done? Were the tires overinflated? The car felt planted but it also just didn't want to turn. I admit I'm not a fan of AWD as it tends to make driving feel like a guessing game but this really threw me. I can't say with confidence the car handles better or worse than my 330i. I can only say the handling felt vegue and strange and unMazda-like. I need to drive it again - on a twistier road - to say definitively if this car doesn't do it for me in terms of handling.
The ride was compliant. Very compliant. And quiet. The lack of sound, the weird understeering and the soft ride certainly didn't call back memories of driving a WRX/Legacy GT. This is a more refined, subdued car. Unfortunately when pressed it still felt that way. Part of my ZHP's charm is the car's dual nature - beast one second, smooth, quiet freeway cruiser with a little burble from the exhaust to never let you forget the car wants to be shifted down to 3rd.
I figure given that this is a Mazda, by May/June, it's gonna sell for at least 2-3k below sticker. In fact, the dealer said Mazda will give buyers 2250 off the sticker if the person leases. One can buyout the lease at a $400 or so penalty. so really it's like a $1850 rebate. Weird, if you ask me. A brand new car and it's got a rebate? So, I figure as a Mazda the car will sell for under sticker soon.
So 29k for the Mazda. Of course, it's going to cost for maintenance and my gas expenses will be much higher. An A3 with sport, xenons, open sky and DSG is 30.5k or about 29k. But it gets great gas mileage and maintenance is free. Plus, honestly, the Mazda's gonna tank on resale (they all do), while the A3 will hold far better.
The e90 via ED is still in the back of my mind. It's more fun than either of those cars but sort of a let down compared to my e46.
Plus, the closest Subie to compare is the Spec B model, with 18" rims just like the Mazda, plus a tigther suspension.
I hope the car mags can compare them with the right tranny.
-juice
I anxiously await a test drive in the Speed6, but it sounds like a car with a confused purpose. Is it sleeper sports car? Or a near-lux highway cruiser? Maybe it's trying to be both at once.
I remember a few of the first reviews I read (pre-production, I think) that mentioned understeer. I believe most AWD cars have some understeer, but shouldn't it be minimal? Hm. Too bad there hasn't been more news about the Speed3 (although if it comes in FWD only, we can count on understeer).
ZHP?
Juice: your last post confused me.
Thanks again,
- Greg
-juice
Very Jekyll and Hyde but not in a way I appreciate.
BTW, ZHP = performance package on the 330i - different cams, different header, new ecu, stiffer suspension, different exhaust, short-shift 6 speed with a different differential. The car's got a whole different personality from a standard 330i with sport package.
Edmunds puts the MSP6 into the "sleeper" category:
"Grown-ups no longer need to be embarrassed by the wing on their Mitsubishi Evolution. Instead of wheels that scream "boy racer," Mazda is offering adults a less conspicuous way to express their need for speed with the new all-wheel-drive 2006 Mazdaspeed 6 sedan ... Unlike the all-wheel-drive Evo and Subaru WRX STi, the turbocharged Mazdaspeed 6 doesn't announce itself with large spoilers and aggressive hood scoops. Instead, this $28,000 sleeper sedan is "intentionally understated," says Shiro Yoshioka, vice president of research and development for Mazda's North American Operations. "It's an adult's car, not an extroverted toy with wings or scoops everywhere. We could have chosen to install a large hood scoop, but that wouldn't be as elegant or well-suited to the theme of the car."
Kudos to Mazda for this decision! There are ENOUGH teenagers in gussied-up Civics with airplane wings and fart cannons out there that aren't bright enough to recognize a MS6 from a regular 6. The MS6 allows me to put them all in their place, and drive my clients and co-workers in style and class as well.
I like that idea too (essentially taking a page from BMW). But the gearing means you're constantly shifting and the engine's always ready with 270+ ft-lbs of torque, thus making the car feel like anything but a sleeper.
The results shouild be well worth it though. I've heard 0-60 times in the low 5-second range. I have yet to see an actual instrumented road test yet...
The car requires 3 shifts to hit 60. I'd be blown away if it takes only 5.5 seconds.
The mileage penalty is far, far, far more than 1 mpg. I can't fathom how it will do better than 21-22 mpg on a freeway trip at 90-100 mph.
BTW, the embarassing thing is that mazda thinks so little of americans, even manual drivers, that they feel manual enthusiasts would not want to shift for power. Strange, even out of touch GM understands that manual drivers don't mind a cruising gear on a performance car (corvette).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=12fe8797-38b2-4f38-b661-d08490b76818
From the article, "This gets the MazdaSpeed 6 up to 100 km/h in 5.5 seconds." This estimates an 0-60 at 5.3-5.4 seconds. Now I know it's a Canadian-market car, but there are no significant differences (in performance) between the two, and I'm waiting to see from other sources first. Still, I don't see it having a problem getting a mid-high 5 sec. 0-60 time, shift or not.
Wasn't mazda predicting somewhere in the mid-6s? I seem to remember discussions about that quite some time ago.
Yeah, but for a couple reasons: The numbers were with the older final drive gearing, and Mazda not only is conservative with estimates, but they don't want to embarrass their flagship, the RX-8, with something faster.
IIRC, "old" technology and problematic?
John
The Haldex was improved recently, a year or two ago I believe. It now acts much quicker.
I'm not aware of any reliability issues with these. VW 4Motion is basically a Haldex, and Volvo has used it for a while, though they keep enhancing it.
One limitation is that there is no center differential so it is indeed a part-time system. It engages automatically, but I would basically consider it a part-time automatic 4WD system, not true full-time AWD.
I prefer AWD, but I'll admit the Haldex is quick and the difference has diminished. I drove several S60s at the Fire & Ice events Volvo hosted, and going from FWD to Haldex I'd notice a substantial improvement in handling. The weight is better distributed, there was less understeer, and grip was greatly improved compared to the FWD Volvos with traction control.
-juice
You must have been nice enough this year for Santa to do that lol.
Does MazdaSpeed have a short throw shifter that fixes the vague shifting that several have mentioned?
John
If anyone is in the Hartford area you can see the Speed6 at the Hartford auto show at the expo center tonight thru sunday afternoon.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/06mazdaspeed6.htm
Tested 0-100Km/h @ 5.5 seconds (0-96mph) and 80-120 Km/h @ 4.3 seconds (50-75mph). These times have been confimed by the Automobile Journalists Association of Canada (AJAC), so there is some validity here. Any concern with acceleration should be moot at this point.
John
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/06mazdaspeed6.htm
I suspect very wide (235mm if I am not mistaken) tires are here to blame/take credit ;-)
Krzys
PS Evo and STI have 225 and Legacy GT 215 if I am not mistaken.
"or the 245-mm width of those low-profile tires"
Who is right?
Krzys
PS Not me, as clearly nobody said 235 ;-)
PS2 In spec section they list tires as 215/45R18 :-)
You certainly didn't wear Rose colored glasses when you were looking at this car! :shades:
The A3 for me was a non starter due to horrible sport seats (never left the showroom). The regular seats are just OK. For what it's worth, I drove a ZHP and E90 (330i sport) and, frankly, the E90 is a better car in every category. But the difference is like going from version 1.1 to 1.5. No problems with my E90 so far (8000 miles). Heck, my G35 needed a new transmission (6 speed) at 12000 miles. So who knows. Plus, neither Audi nor Mazda are at the top of the reliability food chain.
Yes, but ... from a reliability perspective Consumer Reports does not recommend the BMW 3 Series, 6 Series or 7 Series. More shocking is that not one Mercedes model nmakes their list. On the other hand, the Audi4, the Mazda 3 and some versions of the Mazda 6 have the checkmark (i.e. passed the reliability test).
It's far more expressive, fun, harder edged and faster than the e90 330i with sport package. The difference between the two is readily apparent as you accelerate...the e90 has no personality (much like the mazdaspeed6). In corners the car stays flatter and is more point and shoot than either the mazdaspeed6/e90. On a bad road the car rides quite roughly...I love it. On a smooth road it feels like a race car. On the open road it'll swallow hundreds of miles at over 100 mph and still get over 30 mpg. I love it...
Save for the horridly bad engineering (typical of bmw), inept repair facilities, expensive out-of-warranty repairs and massive depreciation of their cars.
If mine had been reliable, I would have bought it at the end of the lease. The current e90's not as much fun and thus not worth my time.
What would you estimate the price of the BMW 330i with ZHP would sell for these days compared to the Mazdaspeed6? Wouldn't it be close to U$10K? According to Edmunds, the current BMW 330i + sport package (ZPP) works out to about U$39K. The ZHP package you have sounds pricier than the ZPP. Compare that to the $30K for the Mazdaspeed6.
p.s. regarding the 0 - 60 mph timing, the difference of 2/10ths of a second (5.7 or 5.9) has me intrigued, would that be closer to a blink or a cough? :surprise:
FWIW, a 330i euro delivery with leather, sport, comfort access, xenons, roof is 35k.
Run the numbers on much worse gas mileage and 5k oil changes and it's 2-3k difference between the Mazdaspeed touring and the e90.
Funny, when I do a comparo Edmunds shows me a well equipped 330i for nearly $37K and the Mazdaspeed at $30K. They both use premium fuel. The BMW does have better fuel ratings (20/30) compared to the speed (20/26) but that is not going to amount to thousands of savings for most people. The Mspeed 280 ft. lbs. torque is impressive compared to the Bimmer's 220; but the proof is in the drive and not on paper. What is clear to me is that Mazda is trying to provide an alternative; whether it satisfies is another question. My preference would be a car lighter than both of these.
I'm surprised that Subaru is not at the top of your list, since there cars tend to be a little edgy, if lacking in features. Of course, you would need after market suspension mods, plus patience to get it dialed in just right (non sti).
I liked the Mazda6 in 2003, but didn't care for the power options. Now it has power, but the styling is bla.
If you find a sedan that compares FAVORABLY with the ZHP, let me know. I always like sampling what else is out there.