Honda Civic Sedan 2006

alpha01 · July 2005

IMO, the MZ3 isnt that expensive for what you actually get- A poor man's BMW 3 series with leather and NAV for $23K at MSRP. Thats a killer deal, especially considering CR's strong reliability rating, the vehicle's resale appeal, and a very decent basic warranty. Or considered against the obese and confused new $27K 148 horse Jetta, for example.

It'll be interesting to see where this Civic comes in on price. I'm pretty much in the middle on this one- Honda has had some hits and misses lately, and I still cant figure where this one will land. (I'd count the new Ody as a big hit, the Ridgeline as a miss thus far, and the Element as a fallen star- had a great first year, but tanked). I REALLY HOPE that we dont get the same absurd dash as those Euro models. Something like that would totally make me cross the car off my shopping list.

~alpha

callmedrfill · July 2005

Is it gaining 2HP for '06? (For Joy!)

Considering the Scion tC gets 22/29 with 160HP and the 3s gets 25/32, I'd say the economy isn't so bad at Mazda.

I'd bet a 160HP Ex would get 30/36. And the base car 34/40.

If Honda wants "Class best" honors, it needs to smooth out it's ride and NVH, in relation to Mazda3. It appears Americans will sell some EPA for some Grace under Fire.

DrFill

backy · July 2005

Based on '05 pricing, the new Civic will compete directly against the Mazda3s, which starts about $17,000--that is, less than the Civic EX.

maxamillion1 · July 2005

Factor in what type of gas mileage the Civic and Corolla get compared to the Mazda3 and you'll see what I was talking about. Gas mileage on the Mazda3 i or s isn't bad per se, but its not class leading. And I am sure you'd be right about a 160 hp Civic getting around 30/36. And that'd still be a 5/4 better rating. Some of these buyers really pay attention to these EPA ratings.

I have seen several Accord/Camry owners go on about how the Altima only gets 23/29, while the Accords are in the mid 30s. Not much of a difference, but major to some folks. Espeically since Honda's are known for being "fuel misers" so I hear folks say.

But then again that might not be important to all.

I do however, agree with Alpha about the Mazda3 being the poor man's BMW. Seems like it took over where the previous generation Jetta left off. I LOVE the Mazda3. Styling, interior, everything! Its a beautiful little car. And it seems to be more successful than the bigger Mazda6. To me the Mazda3 seems more expensive feeling than the 6 does.

As far as HP, I don't know why I was thinking the Mazda3 i only had 140 hp. I wonder why folks over at another forum were making such a big deal about a 2 hp gain. And yet the "s" model stays the same (160) Seems like VVT was mentioned for the "I" and that gas mileage is supposed to improve for the "i" models as well.

And IMO, the new Jetta is overpriced. Beautiful interior though. I think nowadays VW is really pushing for the new Jetta to compete with cars like the Volvo S40, Acura TSX and to an extent the Mazda3 "s". Not sure how successful this well be because I priced out a fully loaded Jetta 2.0t for over $30K. That's expensive IMO. And it doesn't have style to back it up.

And Backy, you are right..the Mazda3 is not badly priced. I guess I must be used to seeing the fully loaded $23K models that my dealership has around here...mostly Hatchbacks in that price range too..and a few sedans.

But these cars include features like Xenons and TPMS that the Civic doesn't have yet.

I can only hope that Honda does what it must to stay competitive in this class. Right now I give that honor to Mazda...

One things for sure, even with the latest pics, I still think the 3 looks better than even the new Civic.

jchan2 · July 2005

I guess I'll reserve final judgement before deciding which one is better...

chidoro · August 2005

I am not sure a 3s is readily available as a stripped down model at the 17k point. Just because it can be made, doesn't mean there are any shipped.

A high 17k price w/ the EX will includes most everything save personal touches and nav. The 3s sails past that price point pretty quickly coming in at just under 19k. Technically, I think they will be cross-shopped but finacially, the 3s looks to be more expensive unless Honda gives the line a large bump.

I too am going to reserve judgement until I get a chance to see it in person and test drive the EX. I doubt I'll like the exterior as much as the 3, which, imo, is not just the best looking compact, but one of the best looking cars period. I also hope the Civic isn't too outlandish looking inside. Material quallity has always been good, especially since '03 when the gauges and seat fabric were improved a lot, so there's no sense in getting too wacky. If they want to look high tech for the hybrid ala the prius, that's fine, but the EX shouldn't go too far down that road.

bamacar · August 2005

The Civic EX Sedan starts at 18000 with the manual. It is almost 19 with the Auto and over 19 with the special edition package. On the present Civic EX the comparable 3 is probably the 3i with the ABS/Airbag package, Moonroof/CD changer, and the Power/Alloy wheel package. This takes the 3i to about 18100 which is about the same as the Civic EX. The 3s is a cut above any Civic in performance (other than the Si) even at around a MSRP of 19 and especially with the equipment on one with a MSRP in the 20's.

The 2006 Civic EX may be very comparable to the 3s though. Wonder how much the price will creep up.

maxamillion1 · August 2005

Prices will probably increase from $500 to maybe a $1000 more than comparable 05 Civics (I think $800 is probably where the increase will probably be)

But as I stated over in the Accord forum...We will find out all the official information for this new Civic Sept. 1 @ 12:00AM EST.

I am sure things will leak out for us before that date, but all things OFFICIAL will be stated during the above stated time.

Personally I can't wait to see what happens. I am current out of the market for a new car, but in a couple years when I graduate college, I'll be looking for another new car. I've got my fingers crossed for the new Civic, Mazda3 and upcoming Nissan Sentra (supposedly a baby Altima)

All I can say is this, the competition keeps getting better and better and its ONLY a good thing for us consumers.

blane · August 2005

My September Car & Driver and Motor Trend magazines arrived in my mailbox today. There was nothing new in either publication about the 2006 Civics. Oh well.

backy · August 2005

What did you expect? Honda knows these car mags go out a month before their publication date, and they don't want any leaks before the big announcement on Sept. 1. Maybe Honda leaked some info to the mags so they can have details in their October issues, due out on Sept. 1.

igorp1 · August 2005

Look at 2006 Civic photos (7) on foolowing site
http://gazeta.ru/2005/07/26/oa_165316.shtml">

igorp1 · August 2005

Look at 2006 Civic photos (7) on following site
http://gazeta.ru/2005/07/26/oa_165316.shtml">

maxamillion1 · August 2005

We will start to really get more information by the middle of this month. The stuff won't be official, but I know for a fact that dealers began their Ride and Drive sessions for this car August 15 in Southern California. The Accord's debut took place in the same area.

Also, if I remember correctly, some of the Accord's official pictures leaked out early as well. And more than likely, some folks will get their car magazines (Motortrend, Road and Track, etc.) early and somebody will end up posting pics of the car up before the Sept 1 debut. Sometimes I get my mags a week or two before the start of the month.

Similar stuff happened with the Accord when it was redesigned.

But official stuff won't be released until Honda reaches its Embargo date, which is Sept 1.

I'm good friends with some folks at a Honda dealership in my area, I'm going to stop in and see if I can get some information out of them...

user1235 · August 2005

No no no, you are confusing the issue of price comparisons. Like it was mentioned above, the Civic EX is in fact comparable to the Mazda 3i (not the 3S). The Civic EX sedan (manual w/o side airbags) invoice price is $16.5K. The Mazda 3i with power pkg+moonroof/cd+a/c (manual w/o side airbags) is only $16K, and it still has a bigger engine (2.0L vs 1.7L), 21 more hp, larger wheels (16" vs 15"), better stereo (6-cd changer vs single cd) and arguably much better looks and interior (more headroom as well).

So a 2005 mazda 3i (+options) still costs less then a Civic EX and gives you more. And as mentioned, CR gives it the highest reliability ratings, highest resale, and highest owner satisfaction. So the Mazda 3i is a MUCH BETTER DEAL then the civic EX right now based on invoice price (not including any incentives). BUT the Mazda 3s is even a BETTER DEAL then the 3i, becasue it only costs (invoice) $16.9K with the same equipment (moonroof and cd-changer w/manual transmission w/o side airbags), but you get a 160 hp engine.

Now, the new Civic EX will have ABS and side airbags but still it will not match the Mazda 3i engine's power (not to mention the 3s). A mazda 3i with the same options plus ABS/side airbags is $16750 (invoice price, manual transmission), which is exactly the same as the invoice price of current Civic EX sedan w/side airbags (but no ABS). So do you really think the new civic EX will have invoice price equal or lower than the current one ? NO !!! it must be higher, so it will be MORE EXPENSIVE then an equivalently optioned Mazda 3i !!!! And since it's a new model there will be no incentives in the first few months. So we end up with the conclusion that the new Civic EX sedan will be more expensive (by at least $500 in my opinion) than a Mazda 3i, but would still have less power, and will hardly match it in looks and handling.

In fact the new EX sedan will probably cost as much as a Mazda 3s sedan (with same equipment) which is simply a better car. On the coupe side it has to compete with Scion tC, which is again a much more powerful car (it costs $17500 w/manual transmission and ABS/side airbags).

So what is the conclusion ? Honda with its new 2006 Civic EX has not matched the performance of the leading compact sedans and coupe. And the pricing (which will be higher then current price and no incentives) will be at least as much as the competitors. So I believe smart consumers will pass on the new civic EX and turn to mazda/scion. The new civic is already a flop.

Only the SI is promising, as long as it's reasonably priced compared to the scion tC.

user1235 · August 2005

Dont try to dismiss my argument by saying the Civic LX is different, because it's just the same as EX with less standard equipment. A Mazda 3i can be optioned exactly like a Civic LX and will cost less then the civic. So it's the same story as the EX.

Also dont try to argue about better fuel economy, because that's really a very pathetic excuse to try to justify the horrible price/performance of the new civic. Unless this car is some kind of a supreme handler, great looker, amazing interior - I just can't see it offering anywhere near the value of the mazda 3 or scion tC.

maxamillion1 · August 2005

Civic EXs come with ABS standard. The EX has had this since at least the 2001 Version.

And the Civic (rather DX, LX, EX, Hybrid, SI) will be no flop. I'm willing to bet the Civic will still outsell the Mazda3 even if its not as pretty, not as fast, nor as sporty either.

Also, aren't they supposed to be upping the power of the EX up to 160? I read that over at Vtec.net.

Why wouldn't this new Civic be a flop? Well, because it this class of cars many folks simply do not care about power, handling, etc. etc. Especially if these cars end up appealing to younger people going off to college, people on budgets, etc. etc. Or as we have been seeing here lately, older folks. Some folks with blind loyalty might not even give the Mazda3 a glance simply because in their minds they will think the Honda or Toyota is better. Not that its right or wrong, but that's the simply truth of the matter. As long as Honda doesn't pull an 03 Accord on us, the Civic will be fine.

I'm willing to bet it will probably be a better seller than current Civic at that. As long as the car is built well, handles reasonably and has at least average reliability, it will be fine. Honda will sell them by the truckloads.

The Mazda3 is the class leader thus far, but its the Corolla and Civic that have the best sells. These two cars are constantly at the top of the Compact car sales segment. The Cobalt, in all its mediocrity, ranks high up there too.

The Corolla, with its much less sporty suspension, similar pricing and nice interior (but not as nice as the Mazda3's) still outsell the Mazda3 by a wide margin.

Who says the Civic, with its reputation, can't do the same thing? Might end up NOT being the class leader but a Flop? I think not.

:P

blueiedgod · August 2005

Based on '05 pricing, the new Civic will compete directly against the Mazda3s, which starts about $17,000--that is, less than the Civic EX.

Apples to apples, Mazda3 as you stated starts at $17K, Civic starts at $12K. Ex is not your stripper model.

backy · August 2005

I don't know of any '05 Civic that lists for $12k, and certainly the '06 Civic won't be in that price range. That's where the Fit will fit.

blueiedgod · August 2005

Civic DX starts at around $12K.

blueiedgod · August 2005

http://gazeta.ru/2005/07/26/oa_165316.shtml

As per article:

Start button will make it into production. The engine choices are 1.4L = 83 hp, 1.8L iVTEC = 140 hp and a 2.2L Turbo diesel = 140 hp. These are Euro specs and not Si.
Fuel efficiency: 6.1L/100 km, 6.4L/100 km and 5.1L/100 km.

The car will be smaller, externally than the current Civic.
Length: 4.25m, current 4.29 m
Height: 1.46m, current 1.5 m
Width: 1.72m, current 1.76
Wheelbase: 2.64m
Volume: 456L, current 379 L

European sales are to begin in January of 2006.

blueiedgod · August 2005

http://multimedia.honda-eu.com/civic06/index.html

backy · August 2005

MSRP for DX is $13,775. MSRP for Mazda3i, no options (but more equipment and tons more power than Civic DX) is $14,240 (not $17k). But that may be moot because I have yet to see a DX sedan (with no A/C) on a dealer's lot. Honda pushes the Civic VE as the low-end model. I have seen the stripped 3i but not many; almost all come with at least the power package, putting them closer in price/content to the Civic LX.

user1235 · August 2005

well maybe not a total flop but certainly a disappointing attempt which doesn't match the current best and is not cheaper either. The bottom line for the new (non Si) civics is this:

Sedan: Mazda 3i > Civic
Coupe: Scion tC > Civic

The Si has potential for me (need to buy a new car within next 6 months) if it's priced below 20K, otherwise I will be shopping for a mazda/scion.

chidoro · August 2005

That's a pretty bold statement for having not driven or even looked at the car in person yet. But, it's your money as well as your opinion

alany · August 2005

Thanks for the link to the Honda-eu.com site. The exterior of the car looks great, but the dash display is even more ghastly than earlier pics suggested. I love how the tagline on the website says "Welcome to the flight deck" when you click on the interior, as if the cockpit would be more appropriate for a jet liner or spacecraft.

maxamillion1 · August 2005

Agreeing there Chidoro.

Seems like the Mazda3 is probably the better choice for him, but the car will not be a flop by any means.

user1235 · August 2005

The car shown in the european video is the hatchback version which will NOT be offered in the US. Anyway, the US coupe looks better. As for the interior, it's futuristic high tech looking and rather nice, but I don't like the shifter mounted in the dash ? hopefully the US version will be a little different.

Despite what some honda fanboys are saying, this car is destined to be a flop, as any smart consumer which cross shops the new civic with mazda 3i will relaize he can get more of a car for less money. I don't mean civic will not sell at all, but it will continue to lose market share against the competition. So I expect some incentives not too long after it's released, which means that anyone buying the car during the first few months (when it might go for close to MSRP), will be hit hard once the price goes down to invoice and below (when the incentives hit). But of course there will always be people like that, that just got to have the car first no matter what the price. They will have their short lived happiness followed by a hard realization that someone made a killing at their expense. These people are the opposite of a smart consumer, and some of infest these forums, I just hope that they will not lure anyone into following them in their irresponsible over-spending.

claudius753 · August 2005

I believe that these "smart consumers" are already cross shopping the Mazda 3i with the current Honda Civic which is 5 years old. These smart consumers are keeping the Civic sales well ahead of the Mazda 3. June 2005 sales figures show the Mazda 3 at just under 8,000 units while the Civic has sold well over 24,000. And this is on an out going model that has just 2-3 months to go. Don't get me wrong, I like the Mazda and I am also considering that, but horsepower and displacement aren't all that matter to some people.

Anyway, on to the new Civic....

It looks to me that the 2006 Civic should be a good deal of an improvement over the previous generation. That 1.8liter engine with all of the technology it offers is pretty amazing. If you haven't done so, definitely check out the video on honda's website about the new engine. check it out here. It says it requires QT7 to view, which I don't know if that's out yet for Windows, it's fine for the Mac.

More power, less emissions, better economy. Then the IMA will be more efficient as well as more powerful, and will be able to run on the electric motor alone, like Toyota Synergy Drive. Honda does make some damn good engines and engine technologes, you gotta admit.

user1235 · August 2005

and the new model is supposed to reverse that trend. You got to admit that the current civic (as well as the previous one) just looks amazingly good, I love the way it looks, and that's a major reason why people are buying it despite the lower specs comapred to price vs the competition. That and the honda reliability advantage vs mazda/ford. And of course the HEFTY incentives that are out there right now for the outgoing civic, making it cheaper then the mazda 3i. AND THAT IS EXACTLY MY ARGUMENT (I WILL SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU): the new model will not have any incentives, and together with an increase in base price, it will COST A LOT MORE THEN THE CURRENT MODEL. KAPISH ? therefore, it will lose a lot of its competetiveness against the mazda 3i. Also the new civic sedan doesn't look as good as the outgoing model (check for yourself), although the coupe design is much improved and rivals the scion tC design. So the new model spells doom for honda because of the increased price. Good luck trying to sway consumers now that it will cost more then mazda 3i, yet still offer less power.

maxamillion1 · August 2005

Honda fan boys or not.. the car will still sell well, and will more than likely outsell the Mazda3... I'm routing for the next Sentra anyway... especially if it looks anything like my current Altima.

To prove my point of why the Civic will not be a flop. Look at the current Camry. It does everything well, but doesn't stand out much in the way of dynamics (SE models maybe), handling, sporty feel, etc. And compared to cars like the Hyundai Sonata, it looses in the price and standard equipment categories. But its still the best selling car in America. The Hyundai Sonata without a doubt is the better value, but I'm willing to bet the Sonata won't outsell the Camry in the near future.

But to get back on topic, look the many different small compact vehicles on the market today. There was a time when the only real important cars in this class were the Civic, Corolla, Cavalier and the Escort. That has changed significantly over the last decade.

That's quite obvious given that we now have a more competitive Cobalt, Mazda3, Corolla, Elantra, Spectra, new Sentra coming and lets not forget the Focus, and Scion tC. The current Focus, especially the later years of this design, have done all things well. Many considered the Focus the benchmark for this class until the Mazda3 hit the scene. It's come close to outselling the Civic and Corolla, but hasn't on a year to year basis in the U.S. The Mazda with its smaller dealer network and smaller manufacturing availability wouldn't be able to outsell it. On top of that Ford gives you more variety than Mazda does. You can get a Sedan, Hatchback (3 and 5 door), and wagon version of the Focus. All you could get from Honda was a sedan, coupe and hatchback. So how is Mazda, with only two configurations Sedan "i" and "s" and Hatchback "s," going to do what Ford even couldn't do, but with fewer model variations?

Sure Civic's market share will probably drop. That would make since seeing as we have so many different competitive compact cars out there today. But just because market share drops, doesn't mean sells will per se.

The Civic will still be a good seller, regardless of whether is better than the Mazda3 or not. The Mazda6 is regarded as a better car in many ways than the Camry, Altima and even at times the Accord, but all three of those sedans readily outsell it. Just because you are the BEST doesn't mean you'll sale the best.

As far as pricing...
Anybody who pays MSRP for this car is obviously in a hurry to buy. Some folks may, some folks won't. I sure there were folks who ended up paying MSRP for a Mazda3, Civic, or whatever, but the MAJORITY of us will not end up doing that. So that's a moot point. The market nowadays is more competitive than it has ever been before. I can guarantee you that the Civic won't sell for MSRP for very long because the current Accord didn't. And up until the recent Sonata, the Accord has ALWAYS been regarded as the Benchmark. I am willing to bet by Jan. you'll be able to get a good deal on the Civic Si as well as the regular Civic models. That's a good thing for everyone it seems. Competitive models bring out competitive pricing. If incentives are offered, so be it. That's good for us all. Everyone else, from Toyota to Hyundai is offering them. Does Mazda not have some type of incentive (Financing, College rebate, etc?)

What I find so interesting is the fact that the Civic isn't even here yet, we don't even have full specs on the car and you are already calling it a flop? Okay... :confuse:

Sure it lacks the style of the Mazda3, and probably won't handle as well, but so what, the Corolla handles worse than both, is older than the Mazda3 and still outsells it. The current Civic, in all its mediocrity, wasn't even a flop by any means. So imagine taking that mediocre (for Honda's standards) Civic and re designing it. Giving it more features (ABS, SABs, SACs, power windows, etc.) then giving it a better ride, improved fuel economy while giving it more power.

Flop, I think not. Good seller, that sounds better....

Also, you ignored a point I made earlier...
Is the Corolla, not outselling the Mazda3 even though the Mazda represents the better value? The current Cobalt with its lack of safety features and weak steering outsells the Mazda3. The Ford Focus, despite being a 2000(?) model year car that is long in the tooth (but still a good car) outsells the Mazda3

So what makes you think the Civic, which is usually the BEST seller in this class of cars, which will be all-new for 06, won't do the same thing?

Regardless of rather the Mazda3 is the better car (and the Mazda3 IS), the Civic will sale based on the following.
A) Brand loyalty.... there are some loyal Honda folks out there...

Brand Reputation... Honda's are known for quality (rather true or false)
C) Fuel Economy (it will be class leading, it usually is.)
D) Its a Honda.. can you say Resale Value?
E) Its all-new... some folks will simply trade because its a new car...
F) Its offering a major amount of standard safety features (SAB, SAC, ABS, DRLs, etc)
G) Folks will think its reliable because it has an "H" on the grille.

And again, the Corolla, Cobalt and Focus, though not as highly ranked as the Mazda3, still outsell it.

I rest my case.

:P

maxamillion1 · August 2005

That's because the current Civic was not very competitive in the first place. Espeically once the new Corolla rolled out. The current Civic lost the handling abilities of the previous model and IMO, the quality of interior materials and the design of the Civic's interior went downhill.

And as far as looks..the current Civic has NEVER been regarded as a "looker" As a matter of fact, many seem to think that Honda's styling has been going down since the release of the 2001 Civic. The previous generation, espeically for the sedan models, looked lower and sportier. You keep talking about how the new one doesn't look good, etc. etc. Have you seen actual pics or just the spy ones? Chances are once the tape comes off, it might look a bit better.

But then again styling is a very subjective area. The current Civic surely did not sell because of its "looks" though. That I am sure of.

And as far as price, I'm willing to bet the MSRP for the new Civic won't go up more than $800 for each model, but then again you'd be adding equipment to the car that few cars in this class will have standard. (ABS isn't standard on the 3, nor is SAB, SAC, though 06 Mazda3 "s" models will get ABS standard)

More expensive than a Mazda3, umm yes..but the current Corolla, Focus and Cobalt can be more expensive as well, so what is your point?

If Honda needs to offer incentives for this new model, they will because eventually it seems everyone will.

And to add to your comments, recently, Honda hasn't really beaten the Mazda3 in the reliability contest..aren't they about even. The Mazda might even have the edge. But to the average buyer, they will still see the Honda as more reliable (hint: blind loyalty)

Futhermore, sure the current Civic has incentives on it. Just about every car in this class does. The Corolla is selling well because many of them go to fleets. You RARELY see Civics at Fleet places. As a matter of fact, my local rental car agencies, I can even get a Mazda6 or Mazda3, can't find a Civic though. If Honda wanted sells to be up, they could simply sell cars off to fleets like Nissan, Toyota and Mazda is doing..but they rarely do this so that resale values remain high.

And as far as having "Good luck with swaying Customers" no one here has to do that (what's your point anyway???) that's the job of Honda's marketing team.

And I'm willing to bet, this new Civic, if given the proper interior, good handling, good ride, nice enough exterior looks and ample power, will be successful and still readily outsell the current Mazda3.

No one here has stated that the Mazda3 isn't a good car. (That would be inaccurate) but we all know the current Civic will still outsell the Mazda3. That would be like predicting the Nissan Titan, while better in many ways than the Ford F150, outselling it.

The Civic might not end up handling as well as the Mazda3 or looking as good, but it WILL outsell it.

And like I said, no one in here has to try and "sway customers" truth be told, Honda could probably not advertise this new Civic and it would still sell better than the current Mazda3.

chidoro · August 2005

You are wound up a little too tight. And be careful with your "fanboy" comments, a quick read through this thread is all it takes to see that is not the case.
Model design is subjective. People value a vehicle's attributes differently. You can shout it in caps on your posts but not everyone wants the same thing you do, it's really that simple. These people aren't stupid. They are not getting hoodwinked. They just have a different preference.

Kirstie_H · August 2005

We are sharing opinions here, and opinions are innately subjective. If you don't like someone's opinion of a vehicle, skip it - namecalling of any kind and personal comments aren't acceptable.

No reason to get in a fight over someone's like/dislike of a vehicle design!

user1235 · August 2005

with the fanboy comment, but when some people say they are "going to go do to the honda dealership and put down a deposit on the new civic so they will be among the first to get it", you know that means they are agreeing to pay MSRP on a car they know little about, except the fact that it's a honda civic. So their blind loyalty (or call it trust) causes them to make possibly unwise buying decisions, and in their blind enthusiasm they anounce their actions as if it's the greatest thing in the world, when in fact this behavior represents being a irresponsible consumer. I was just saying that I wouldn't put any weight on what "consumers" like that are saying. They are free to spend their money however they like, but they don't help responsible consumers make smart decisions about getting thet best product (in fact they might influence other consumers to follow their mistakes).

backy · August 2005

You don't want to offend anyone, yet you call people "irresponsible" just because they want to be one of the first to own the '06 Civic? There's lots of ways to buy cars. Just because someone doesn't buy a car the way you do doesn't make them irresponsible. There are a lot more irresponsible things a person could do than buy the latest version of a car that has one of the best track records for reliability, quality, safety, and resale value, and by all accounts will be one of the most fuel-efficient cars available.

maxamillion1 · August 2005

Its up to the folks who buy these cars to make their own decisions on pricing, features, competition and what's of value to them.

And futhermore, doesn't Scion sell cars at MSRP? The Scion might be cheaper than the Civic price wise though.

But like I have already stated, you won't see many folks paying MSRP for the new Civic. Today's market is not like it was back in the early 80s and 90s when Honda's Civic and Accord ruled supreme.

Today's market is far too crowded and far too competitive for that type of pricing to continue.

jscev · August 2005

You can still carefully and responsibly park a car and still look to see what the interior of a car looks like. I obviously am doing a good job or i wouldnt have been hired back after my 3rd yr. they have already fired 3 ppl since i have been there but im still there. but thats beside the point. I think Digital Speedometers are ugly. they dont looke good in any car and def. are not in style to whoever said that. I will stick with my 02 toyota celica unless it changes or there are options to not have the digi speedometer

jscev · August 2005

about the late post but i do not have a whole lot of time to get on and check on updates all that much. and all these pics of this civic are just the uropean model right? or will the US version look the same? I like the earlier concept model better then these pic i have been seeing lately.

user1235 · August 2005

there will be no incentives. Bottom line - the OTD price will go up by at least a $1000, and that is without including the initial period where dealers will charge close to MSRP, instead of close to invoice. For example, Civic EX coupe manual w/side airbags TMV (=invoice) = $16381, but carsdirect price = $15905 (price includes mfr incentives). A scion tC manual with side & curtain airbags costs TMV (=MSRP no haggle pricing) = $17365. So you can see that the civic is about $1500 cheaper then the tC. Now the new 2006 civic EX coupe (which will have side airbags standard) will be more expensive due to (a) higher base invoice price, (b) no incentives, (c) being sold by dealers well above invoice. Combine these factors and you'll see it will cost AS MUCH AS THE SCION tC !!!! but scion has 2.4L 160hp engine, dual moonroof, 17" wheels, knee airbags. That is not even comparing handling, looks, interior quality (since we don't know for sure yet) even though it's clear it couldn't match the scion on any of these categories.

blane · August 2005

user1235,

Re your post #553, Honda Civic shoppers would normally cross shop Toyota's Corolla, as they are in the same "class" of vehicle, with eqivalent levels of content, quality and reliability.

It would be quite unlikely that anyone but the most price-sensitive buyer would consider the bottom of the line Scion brand that Toyota created for their entry-level line, aimed at first-time buyers. The plan is for Scion owners to eventually migrate up the line, to the Toyota brand, for their next purchases.

I don't believe that your Honda vs. Scion scenario is realistic for the vast majority of potential buyers.

jchan2 · August 2005

Even though the Mazda3 is what some people would say a better car, not everybody likes the Mazda3.

The Corolla, Focus, and Cobalt, all outsell the 3, which many people on this board would say is the best small car.

And why is that?

It's because those cars (Corolla, Focus, Cobalt) appeal to the masses. The majority of buyers aren't looking for handling and a sporty ride, they just want something affordable, comfortable, safe, and reliable that gets them from Point A to Point B safely, cheaply, and comfortably.

The Civic outsells the 3, and the Civic is almost never sold into fleets. The 3, however, can be found in many fleets, including those of Enterprise and Budget Rent A Car.

And many people, when seeing the sticker price of a Mazda3s, think 'Geez, $22K for a compact car? I could get an Accord!'

And yes, $22K buys an Accord LX, or even a Hyundai Sonata with the V6.

People Buy Civics because:
1) RESALE VALUE
2) good crash test scores
3) reliable, durable, and nicely put together
4) because its got an H badge on the front

People are attracted by the brand name. I guarantee that if the Civic were sold under an unknown brand in the US (like Chery, Daewoo or Rover) it would get far fewer sales than it does currently with the Honda badge resting on the front.

I might be biased though, being the owner of a Honda Civic myself...

user1235 · August 2005

I felt like I have to debunk your misinformation. First, Scion is 100% Totyota, in fact these are japanese manufactured Toyota cars (even better than US made Toyotas). Second, the tC is a high quality extravagently equipped car (dual moonroof, ABS, knee airbags, pioneer stereo, 17" wheels, 4 disc brakes, steering wheel audio controls, high quality fabric and interior, 2.4L Camry engine), which is not only youth youth oriented. It appeals to would be lexus owners that don't quite have the money for a lexus IS. It also appeals to the tuner crowd, as well as college student. Nothing about that car is cheap.

And as for #555, stop with your $22K BS, a mazda 3i equipped comparably to a Civic sedan (either LX equipement or EX) would be CHEAPER, get it ? it's true the mazda offers expensive options such as leather, navigation, xenon, etc which could make it cost $22K, but so would a civic if you add these options from third party after-market.

#554, Scion and Civic coupe are indeed competeting models, except that even the top of the line civic EX falls short compared to the tC. But at least the civic is cheaper. Not so with the new civic, which will cost as much as a scion tC, yet still fall behind in performance and build quality (Toyota Hiroshima japan plant vs Honda midwest USA).

backy · August 2005

The other reason the Civic outsells the Mazda3 is because Mazda isn't trying to outsell the Civic. They know they have a niche car in the small-car field, one that is pricier than most, and that's fine with them. They'll keep selling the 3 to people who want a superior driving experience and superior style, and let Honda, Toyota, and others sell their econoboxes. What is intriguing about the new Civic is that Honda appears to be trying to move closer to Mazda territory by improving both the driving experience and style of the Civic.

blane · August 2005

user1235,

You are clearly enthralled with the Mazda3 and the Scion tC, and you have made that quite apparent on this board by 2006 Civic-bashing. However, you are not well informed about the genesis of the Scion brand or of Toyota's marketing strategy in creating it. You may, wish to read here for a bit more depth:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-05-01-scion_x.htm

http://www.forbes.com/2004/10/12/cz_sk_1012feat.html

I believe that we can agree that the Echo is Toyota's bottom-of-the-barrel entry level model in this country. The Forbes article above stated: "The first two Scion models, the xA and xB, are Japanese market derivatives of the Toyota Echo."

Honda does not market a model in that category in the United States.

You have extolled the virtues of the Mazda3 styling, versus the yet-to-be-seen styling of the ACTUAL 2006 Civics. Yes, we've all seen the taped up spy shots and I think that, by the little I've seen of it, the sedan looks quite good. I, for one, have never cared for the styling of the Mazda3. So, it's a question of your aesthetics versus my aesthetics. Some people love spinach, others don't. Personal preferences do not make you, or the others in this discussion right or wrong.

user1235 · August 2005

I quoted you cold hard specs, and cold hard facts about pricing. Yet people here continue to throw baseless statements like "mazda 3 costs $22K", or "scion is a bottom of the barrel brand" or "scion is only for college kids" or "civic does not compete with the scion or the mazda" and so forth. Get over you shallow USA today based information that scion is for kids, etc - calling these cars scions is a pure marketing decisions. The scion cars are toyotas that don't have anything to do with each other except the fact that someone thought they would sell more if called scion. tC is nothing to do with xA/xB and as I said offers staggering features for the price (which is not that cheap either).

Even putting aside subjective styling issue (and btw, I love the way current civic sedan looks) or comparisons of handling and interior to the yet unknown 2006 civic. The cold hard facts about performance, equipment, features and pricing from what is known so far shows that mazda and scion outperform the civic and cost about the same. Civic outsells them mostly based on brand loyalty, proven reliability and resale value as well as fuel economy. You make your own decision based on what's important to you, but I think it's a shame Honda could not offer some versions of the new civic which would surpass the mazdas and scions.

better luck next time

bamacar · August 2005

So far Scion has only been about value and image. Performance has not been in its lingo. The Xa and Xb have no peers as they are severely underpowered (okay maybe Daewoo is comparable). 0-60 times these days in the near or just over double digits are unheard of. I actually like them but in spite of their poor perfomance. The tC is an adequate performer but has poor fuel economy when compared even to the Camry and Accord 4 cylinder vehicles. If the Civic EX has 160 hp, then I believe the performance nod will probably go to the Civic over the tC. The Si will be in a league the tC will only be able to dream of when it comes to performance.

bamacar · August 2005

The Civic will be back at invoice within the first 6 months. There is just too much competition in the markeplace now. The only way it won't be down to invoice in 6 months is if it sells like a blockbuster hit. If the increase is kept down to a $750 increase, the EX will still undercut the tC with its $200 dollar 2006 increase by around $600.

If the Civic actually gets slightly better fuel economy (the new 1.8 is reportedly thriftier than the outgoing 1.7), it may also get more than the present 8 highway and 10 city better miles per gallon. 10-12 mpg would really hit the spot especially in this economy car category and with the gas prices as they are.

maxamillion1 · August 2005

You might have presented "cold hard facts", but folks have done the same thing for you...you know showing the facts.

Fact, we know so far that the Civic will get a new 1.8L engine that produces 140 hp. We also know that this new Civic will get better fuel economy.

Rumor: The Civic EX will have 160 hp...I'm starting not to believe it.

Fact, the Scion tC will most likely ONLY compete with the Honda civic Coupe (specifically the EX and Si models) so Honda really doesn't have to worry much since coupes sales aren't as high as sedan ones. And they will sell every coupe they make..trust me. They won't have a problem at all.

Fact: The Mazda3 is a better value than the current Civic sedan in most ways (except fuel economy) and its a great car. Everyone acknowledges that in here it seems.

What we do not know is if the Mazda3 i or s will perform better in 0-60 times or not. I'm willing to bet it will beat the "i" model and be comparable with the "s" one.

Example, you keep going on and on about how the Civic won't be as fast as the Mazda3 or Scion tC? How do you know this, based on horsepower???

Cold hard fact, I think not...
That could or could not be the case. Case in point. The current generation Accord is rated at 160hp but its faster than any other four cylinder in this class and is equal to or at times faster than the 175hp I4 found in the Altima.

Horsepower can be great..but its all in the gearing my friend...and Honda is good at that game...

Why? Because Honda underates power, has strong gearing and the car has a 5spd automatic. Look it up, the Altima and Accord are usually neck in neck in 0-60 times, yet the Altima has more power. 15 hp to be exact.

What makes you think Honda can't do the same thing with this Civic?

Also, we ALL KNOW that when comparable equipped the Mazda3 can be had for a lower price than the Civic. But like someone here said, some folks will end up ONLY seeing fully loaded Mazda3s on the lot and come away thinking that most of them cost that much.

At my local dealership, most of the Mazda3 models are "S" models with everything EXCEPT leather. From Xenons to TPMS, etc. Those cars can get expensive quickly, but when similarly equipped the Mazda3 is usually cheaper.

As a matter of fact, the Mazda3s is cheaper than the Focus ST when similarly equipped.

I guess its also a "Cold hard fact" that you keep saying the Civic is a "flop"

Right...

gtbio · August 2005

Wow! Kids...Kids. First off, let's look at the cheap fit and finish of the mazda 3 shall we. Open the glove box and it tumbles out of the box. You have a pleasant view of the dash board as the cabin is made so that the stereo is at eye level. No side air bags and the only thing that makes it look somewhat pleasing to kids is the big wheels on the 2.3L. Those bulbass fog lights look as cheap as the doors feel as you close them. So, for 22k or 19K....or 18K...it's a lot flash with no substance. Hmmm...kinda like user1235's comments....anyway you slice it....it's flash with no substance. Oh ya, let's talk to an engineering. The cylinder heads are machined to a higher micrometer thickness, yielding more friction. Long term the engine in the mazda 3 will "burn out" a lot faster than the Honda. Also, you should get your hands out of your pants and go feel the shifter and clutch on the Mazda 3......cause it's terrible. When you save up your pennies to buy a real car....go check out the RX-8. Different engineering team and different technology. For now the mazda 3 remains what it has been from the start....A misinformed kids car.

GT

maxamillion1 · August 2005

I don't know about that Backy...

Because in Canada, the Number 1 selling car is the Civic...guess who is the 2nd best seller..that's right the Mazda3.

So if The Mazda3 can be the 2nd best selling car in Canada, what makes you think Mazda wouldn't won't the same thing to happen in the U.S.

If enough demand was there for the Mazda3 it would be a better seller. Though sales are up this year compared to last.

I get your point on them being a "niche" company, but truth be told if Mazda could sell more, they would...that's proven by the fact that the Mazda3 is the Second best selling car in Canada.

As a matter of fact, during some months, the Mazda3 sells better than the Civic in Canada.

Honda Civic Sedan 2006

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