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This is not a silly game. It is a serious question for a lot of buyers
For now, I believe Toyota, Chrysler does not for now.
However, if you really want AWD, there are so so many options out there, why would you limit yourself to a minivan. The mpg is not much better than some of the mid size SUV's and they don't have off road or towing capabilities.
The Sienna offers AWD.
ALL of the current GM offerings (Chevy Uplander, Buick Terraza, Pontiac Montana, Saturn Relay, etc.) are also available with AWD.
Are they as 'good' as the Sienna? Dunno; reviewers seem to place the Ody/Sienna quite a bit higher than the GM offerings. However, just trying to point out that the Sienna is NOT the only game in town when it comes to AWD and minivans.
As far as I'm concerned, Toyota has the only AWD minivan worth serious consideration.
Keep in mind that more budget-conscious consumers may like the lower-cost of the Chevrolet Uplander, mainly due to its plentiful rebates usually offered. ($33,500 for Chevy before rebates, but with such Red Tag sales events being so common, I would imagine you can usually find this for under $27k.
I agree with you though, heywood, I wouldn't begin to consider a 9 year old van when better alternatives exist for similar money.
I can't disagree with you, but not everyone likes Toyota/Sienna. I know, I know....shocking.
I was simply trying to answer ctsang's question regarding minivans and the availability of AWD. What I don't know (in keeping with this separate little mini-subthread) is whether or not the AWD GM offerings use RFT's or standard tires?
I also have noticed that starting with the '06 models, the PAX tire system is available AS AN OPTION on some Nissan Quest models. I don't know if one can carry an optional spare tire if the van is fitted with the RFTs.
as a buyer "XM-ready" would potentially be a negotiating lever if we were close on a deal..."toss in the XM radio and it's a deal".
Don't kid yourself, no dealer ever "Throws" anything into a deal. You pay for everything. In the case of the Odyssey, the XM receiver costs in excess of $350 plus a complicated installation. The XM antenna gets glued to the inside of the windshield on the passenger side. The actual receiver is installed under the driver's seat. Extensive removal of trim and seat are required.
Go to Circuit City or Best Buy and buy a receiver for about $50 and have it installed. They will take it out when you sell or trade the vehicle.
I don't know how you make the distinction between a 'reading light' and a 'dome light' so I can't tell you what these are.
However, I know that in our Odyssey, these lights are fairly bright and I would NOT want to be driving at night with a passenger in either 2nd or 3rd row attempting to use their light to read by; it would be too bright and distracting to the driver. I don't know that any manufacturer offers what I would call 'reading lights' (ie. a light which shines a very small spot of light into the lap of the passenger).
Personally, I would rather have bigger, brighter lights for passenger entry/exit at night. If a passenger wants to read at night, there are countless book lights available on the market which would not be a distraction to the driver.
1. Odyssey styling, a "+".
2. Odyssey offers interior air filter, a "+".
3. Would consider the Odyssey EX-L, but not sure about the reliability of the VSA, after all, it is an extra feature that could cost big $ when needs repair. (I plan on driving it for many years to come)
4. Toyota powertrain reliability and reputation, a "+".
5. Interior quietness. I think Toyota is quieter.
6. Fuel economy and safety. I think they are about the same.
Can you share your experience on the two vehicles?
Traction/skid control and side curtain airbags was very high on our list. Standard on Ody; when we were looking in Jan. of last year, these were optional on the Sienna XLE. We wanted leather/sunroof/CD changer (all standard on the EX-L) but would have required one of the major option packages on the XLE (I believe it was Pkg#6 if memory serves).
On quietness/smoothness/interior quality we felt the Sienna had the edge. On handling and some features (+1 seat, in floor storage) we felt the Ody had the edge. To be honest, I felt straightline performance was a wash; any differences were nothing to get excited about.
VSA was not an issue for me because: a) it uses VTEC technology to control the valvetrain (which is how the cylinder deactivation works) and Honda has a pretty good reputation with their VTEC technology, and b) the only new stuff associated with the VSA were the active engine mounts and the ANC used to eliminate (reduce?) the effects of 3-cylinder operation. I figured that any problems we would have with these systems would show up in the first few months of ownership. After a year of ownership, so far so good.
In the end, we felt the two vans to be very very close. There were features on both vans that we liked which were only available on one or the other. Neither offered EVERYTHING (drat!). If they had been priced similarly, we would have ended up with the Sienna.
However, availability of Sienna's with pkg#6 was somewhat limited and (at least in our neck of the woods), we weren't able to get the local dealers to deal very aggressively. If I remember right, the best deal we got was $31.5k +TTL on the Sienna. We were able to negotiate $28.6k +TTL on the Odyssey EX-L quickly, on the color we wanted (Ocean Mist) for a vehicle in stock. No trade-in involved in either deal.
We liked the Sienna, but not enough to overlook a $3k delta. I hope this helps.
VSA is vehicle stability assist which is standard even on the low-end trim (LX).
VCM is variable cylinder management, the technology which deactivates cylinders, has the active engine mounts and uses ANC (Automatic Noise Cancellation) technology through the radio speakers.
Got to love all these acronymns huh?
a word (as NATO, radar, or snafu) formed from the initial letter or letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term; also : an abbreviation (as FBI) formed from initial letters : INITIALISM
Maybe FYI is an acronym. Either way, thanks for looking out for me.
I've been following this discussion for some time, trying to get a feel for the differences between the Sienna and Odyssey. We're now ready to buy since we sold our old car. Both minivans sound like they have certain advantages over the other, but the most important decision point for me is safety, with my wife and two young children in it. Can anyone help me understand the differences between a Sienna with AWD and an Odyssey EXL which does not have AWD, in terms of safety. We live in NH and see lots of snow and ice. Is AWD necessarily superior? How much of a factor is tire quality? Are there other traction features that are more important? Would ground clearance come into play in a snowy climate?
I would really appreciate any opinions or experiences anyone cares to share. Thanks.
Before I give up, does anyone know if it is possible to add the smaller center 8th seat in the Odyssey Touring. I know a seat will fit but the touring doesnt have the belt guide coming down from the roof at the center seats. Is it possible to get one added so I can have 8 seats that are all safe. Wouldnt it make more sense to have lowers models come with 7 seats but if we are willing to pay more we can have 8 seats? :mad:
Musta been low on coffee......
Well, I'm in south Texas so take all of this with a massive grain of salt .........
First, I don't know that the Sienna AWD necessarily has more ground clearance that the standard Sienna FWD.
Second, AWD will certainly help in snow/ice conditions to GET GOING, but......I don't think you'll see any benefit in steering response/braking.
Third, a good set of snow tires will go a long way towards helping with traction (whether AWD or FWD). Personally, I feel that a FWD setup with good snow tires on all 4 corners would be better than AWD with standard 4seasons tires.
Fourth, if I projected a fair amount of snow/ice use, I would make sure that my vehicle had VSA/Traction Control. It is standard on the Ody and on the Sienna with AWD and XLE Ltd. I think you still must add it as an optional package on the Sienna FWD.
Thanks for the input, even with a grain of salt (which actually DOES help with snow and ice!).
This is the type of info that I was hoping for. I've heard the tires on the AWD Toyota are not great tires. It's reassuring to hear, that at least in your opinion, that I would be better off with good tires and front wheel drive.
It's interesting to know what the real benefit of AWD is. Sometimes it seems like AWD is a magical system that prevents a car from ever losing traction. It sounds like the benefit is really with getting going. This is important, but less so than steering response, braking, etc.
I don't really understand what VSA/Traction Control does, but I do understand that it is important.
So thanks for taking the time to give your opinion. Hopefully I'll hear from others too.
We recently purchased a 2006 Odyssey EX-L and love it. We bought it to replace a 4x4 Suburban. I live in Eastern Washington with snow and ice and hills and realized that I was driving the Suburban in 2 wheel drive probably 99.9% of the time. Also realize that in 2 wheel drive, this is a rear wheel drive vehicle which is not quite as good as a front wheel drive vehicle. AWD (or 4x4) is good for getting going primairly on hills under poor traction conditions. It is also useful to go down hills under poor traction conditions using engine braking. For this limited benefit with AWD (vs. 4x4) you have all of the wheels driving 100% of the time. I feel that AWD is one of the biggest frauds perpetrated on the American consumer. At least give us the option of turning the AWD off and saving a little gas.
Honda's AWD system is not engaged unless slippage is detected. As soon as AWD is not needed anymore, it returns back to FWD only. Just something to consider; not all AWD cars are "FULL-TIME AWD", just a "supplemental" system, of sorts.
thegrad
Like another poster said, Traction Control in essense works similar to ABS braking: when it detects wheelspin, it applies the brakes to the spinning wheels. Sometimes, wheelspin is needed (ie. trying to get going out of the snow) so (in most cases) the Traction Control can be turned off by a switch on the dash.
VSA (vehicle stability assist in Honda-speak), VSC (vehicle stability control in Toyota-speak) and other similar systems are all part of what the industry refers to as "ESC" - Electronic Stability Control.
ESC uses sensors to detect the steering wheel angle and inertial sensors in the vehicle to detect yaw (change in actual vehicle direction). It can compare the two to determine when the vehicle is not following the path intended by the driver at the steering wheel.
For example, if the steering wheel is turned a fair amount yet the yaw sensors determine the vehicle is still mostly going straight, it knows the vehicle is beginning to UNDERSTEER. If the steering wheel is turned just a little bit and the vehicle is REALLY starting to rotate, it knows the vehicle is beginning to OVERSTEER. It can detect very very small amounts of understeer and oversteer very quickly.
The system can then apply the brakes to individual wheels to help the vehicle actually follow the path intended by the steering wheel angle. In other words, it will help to prevent loss of steering control.
Check this article from Car and Driver to see how important these types of systems can be:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9036
Note that all current generation Ody's have VSA. The Sienna XLE Ltd. and all Sienna AWD models also have VSC.
My hesitation is because I'm all about Green Technology and I would kick myself from here to Sunday if I buy a Honda or Toyota only to find that they will be offering a Hybrid ion the not-too-distant-future.
Granted, I don't want to be one of those beta-testing for the first year model either.
Does anyone have any knowledge or insider info as to if/when either Honda or Toyota will be coming out with a Hybrid?
Thanks for the explanation and the link. Interesting article. I wonder how complex the software is that drives these features (abs, est, etc.) and whether it has a significant failure rate.
I have seen cars involved in pretty fast head-on collisions in which the air bags did not deploy. In that case, a failure is obvious if it occurs. It would be hard to know if a skid or accident occurred because the traction control or abs failed. I assume some sort of check is done but I would imagine it is not foolproof. That's why I like to push my cars a little, just to make sure things are working.
But I don't think folks should necessarily RELY on these types of systems to save their bacon if they get in over their heads; these are simply aids. Nothing can beat driver training/basic competance.
That being said, I don't think the average driver should intentionally push their minivan to the point of checking their ESC system. While they may not be as top heavy as your typical SUV, neither will they react like a Miata. :surprise:
Ahh...I used to have a miata. Man was that fun, but it just doesn't hold baby seats like a minivan.">
We've test driven both - I can't really quantify the handling difference - the Honda felt slightly sportier to me and the Toyota felt more quietly comfortable, but I don't really prefer one over the other. The price quotes I'm getting are similar enough to make it pretty much a wash in that respect.
We currently have a 2004 Sienna XLE Limited w/RES which we still love but I'm ready for a new vehicle and def. want the NAV. On the 2004 version, you couldn't get both the NAV and a cd changer so we picked the package with the cd changer.
I really like some of the new features available only on the Sienna, i.e. Bluetooth, the power folding mirrors and the integrated turn signals in the mirrors.
However, I also like some of the Honda features, like the lazy susan storage (my daughter always has tons of her junk in the car, which drives me crazy), and the remote that has a storage spot (another sore issue, i.e. I can't find the remote!!) But the Touring comes with those run flat PAX tires, which have their own forum for griping about.
At one point, I actually did decide I wanted the Sienna, but then I looked at the colors and there's not one I really like. We have the arctic frost pearl now, which shows all the dirt, just looks like plain white to most people, and has the light tan interior I don't like. The only color in the current model I could possibly live with that comes with the stone interior is the silver, but I can't get excited about it. By contrast, Honda has two colors I love and one with the dark gray interior that I especially want. But it seems particularly stupid to make a $36k+ vehicle choice based only on the color. Argh - maybe venting about this difficult choice will help! :confuse:
Can't really say what will happen next but it may come down to who will give me the best deal.
Just ask yourself what you value the most. Would you prefer to be comfortable during long/short trips...? Or would you like a better 3rd row seating?
If you still can't decide, price is a good way to make the deal.
We felt the Sienna instrument cluster is THE most attractive on any minivan and slightly preferred the Sienna LE cloth interior to the Ody EX cloth interior. The Ody felt like it might have slightly more leg room in 3rd row. (The GC SXT interior felt cheap in comparison to the Sienna LE and Ody EX ). Each dealership had excellent, non-pushy salesmen but the Ody dealership required a $ 500 NON refundable deposit just to get on the waiting list. When the Toyota dealer had the EXACT Sienna we would have ordered and also gave us a decent price quote, we bought the Sienna.
Some decisions are very difficult. Best wishes in yours and please let us know what you buy.
From the get go I contacted about 12 toyota dealers. My wife is on her 4th Toyota and so the XLE was first choice, however,
1. The Toyota sales people were obnoxious. They weren't helpful, they weren't frank. I could see that they were only interested in their commissions.
2. I contacted about 12 Honda dealers. All of them provided bottom line prices. All were willing to deal.
3. The brakes on the XLE were too responsive. People in the back could feel the effects.(Even though CR states that the Honda has overall better braking distance).
4. The interior layout was better in the Honda. More conducive for a family.
5. The gear stick in the XLE was too low, too loose, one could easily displace it by a simple hand movement.
6. The visibility in the Honda is better.
7. It's cheaper even with after market add ons like rear view camera.
8. The toyota has a power tail gate which I wish the honda had, however the tailgate is light enough to compensate.
9. The mid seat folding mechanism as well as the rear seat was easier in the honda.
10. The honda retains value better than the sienna.
11. The Honda has a little more power, better responsiveness. Plus better fuel efficiency on the highway.
12. Honda is made in the good old South.
Any ways, I bought the Honda with cash with in a week. Whilst researching the Toyota over a period of a month I couldn't commit.
Toyota's option packages are too confusing and have unnecessary items that add to expense. Honda comes with everything included, simple and easy.
Hope this helps, Happy Shopping !!
Oops, just remembered,
Was shopping for both new and used. There were a ton of 05 Sienna's on the market compared to the Odyssey. There was also a greater gulf between the trade in value and dealer retail price for the Sienna. It seemed as though used Siennas were deliberately over priced to facilitate negotiations on the price.
This posed the question :-
What did people get rid of their Siennas so soon?
You can't go wrong with either choice. It's just a matter of personal tastes (softer & comfy or firmer & sporty), although neither is so extreme to one side or the other as to put too many off.
>What did people get rid of their Siennas so soon?
Alamo and Hertz in some regions have Siennas in their stables. I choose Siennas over DGC anytime I have a choice. Never seen an Ody rental though!
I always thought it was a pretty good fit instead of the big crown vics, prob get better gas mileage too.
That's great if the Odyssey is a van that will do everything you want it to do. If not, it doesn't mean much.
Simple question: Have you ever been in an accident because you couldn't go? How about because you couldn't stop in time?
AWD helps you go, that's it. Winter tires help you go, stop and handle better.
-murray
Yup.
AWD and other safety systems only manage the existing grip, they do not increase grip. Winter tires do however.