Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

1291292294296297853

Comments

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    How similar is the AMC 360 V-8 versus the 360 V-8 in your New Yorkers? I remember my Dad thinking of getting a 1976 Jeep Cherokee wagon with the 360 when I was a kid.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    They're totally different engines. The Mopar 360 is from the 273/318/340 "LA" series smallblock family, while the AMC unit is from the 304/390/401 family. They just happened to have the same displacement.

    I think my uncle's old truck is still around. He sold it to a friend of his down in the mountains in Virginia, who wanted to use it for hunting trips. I don't think we ever took any pics of it specifically, but it's in the background of this picture:
    image

    A buddy of mine took this pic of my DeSoto in late 1990, not long after I got it.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,802
    I'm having a hard time getting my mind wrapped around 1988 Celica = "fun" but I'll keep trying.

    How bout now?
    ;)

    I know, I know, not really fair. Wrong year and all. Just thought it was interesting.

    But, suspension is the easy part. And at ~3200 lbs and AWD with a turbo 4, I would think hitting WRX levels shouldn't be tough. But I'm just making an uneducated guess.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I dunno. I'd guess that a stock Celica All-Trac is about an 8 second car? Not particularly fast by modern standards.

    Relative to OTHER Celicas, that All Trac would be "fun". Certainly more fun than a Tercel 4WD or a Honda 4WD or a Subaru SVX from the same era.

    As for that 521 HP All-Trac, you know what they say---if you have the time and the money, we'll build you a 1000 HP Yugo. I wonder how they got the AWD system to hang in there. Maybe the idea is to not do anything too violent in it.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,161
    "I'd guess that a stock Celica All-Trac is about an 8 second car?"

    Yeah, I don't remember a lot of 'buzz' around it when it came out, as far as it being some early WRX - type car.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I actually do remember some of buzz about it. I still have my '89 R&T Sports & GT guide at home. I'll look at the article about it again. I think the 0-60 was in the 7's (7.7 maybe) and they raved about the handling.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,161
    You're right - I have a spreadsheet with 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, it has three tests for the all-trac ('88, '89, '90) and they're all 7.5-7.7 sec 0-60, 15.6-15.7 1/4 mile. Just must not have stuck in my mind...I was in Anchorage at the time, would have thought a high-performance AWD would have made more of an impression on me:confuse:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Might be worth fixing up if it's not too rusty. Morris Travellers can be sorta kinda valuable. I had a Morris Minor. The mileage claim is absurd. This is after all just a BMC engine as one might find in an Austin Healey Sprite (less power however). Perhaps 30 mpg on a good day? 35 downhill with a wind coasting in neutral in the vacuum of space? Oh, wait, there is no wind in space----okay, SOLAR wind.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,161
    She just mislabled the units - she gets 50 miles per bale for the horse needed to tow that thing :sick:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    correct me if I'm wrong, but I cannot think of one automobile gasoline engine, new or old, installed in a normal 4 passenger car, that can get 50 mpg in normal highway use.

    Quite a claim lady!
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    1993 Honda Civic VX hatchback EPA est: 48/55
    (Yes, I know that the 4-passenger part could be a bit cramped)

    link title
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,802
    and don't forget, that's a stock all-trac. This is a turbo car, after all.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah but could it REALLY?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,161
    No, those numbers were for the turbo. No way a non-tubo AWD '89 Celica would do 7.5 sec 0-60.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I am almost sure the AWD was only available as a turbo.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    When you figure that Civic VX probably has no a/c and no power steering to sap any power from the engine, and most likely is geared for economy, I guess 55 mpg is possible if you're not too rough on it and the terrain isn't too hilly.

    But now, put four people on board and that ain't gonna happen! With three passengers my size on board, instead of a car that weighs 2094 lb + the driver, suddenly you end up with a car that's more like 2700 lb + the driver
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,802
    what I meant was a turbo car is easily modded for more power. So while mid-7s is stock, that can be remedied for little $$.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,161
    That's very true - just better know what's being done, not many parts floating around for those! Here's a good discussion:
    Celica All-Track Turbo
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sometimes people have to realize that a car is "rare" because nobody bought it in the first place.

    Given that you can buy a nice used EVO for $20K, one wonders why someone would put all this time and money into this car.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,161
    "one wonders why someone would put all this time and money into this car. "

    That's what I wondered when I came across a Subaru Brat fan web site...

    edit: to quote the web site: "Any BRAT is a fine truck. A truck that stands alone as a unique and technically superior marvel of engineering. A truck that is still years ahead of the most modern offerings of other manufacturers."
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I wonder that a lot. For example:

    Why spend $10K putting an Integra engine and components on a Civic, when you can just buy an Integra for less?

    On eBay I saw a 240SX with a TT 300ZX engine in it. Any reason why you wouldn't prefer a stock TT 300ZX for less money? By the time you switch everything over and beef up the old 240 to handle the power, it probably weighs as much and you've ruined any good the original engineers put into the car.

    RX-7 with a Chevy V8 (even 3rd gen cars). Blasphemy. You've killed all that is good about the RX-7, and you end up with a decent brawn over agility type car - why not just buy a Vette in first place?

    I could go on...
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    I wonder that a lot. For example:
    Why spend $10K putting an Integra engine and components on a Civic, when you can just buy an Integra for less?


    I think that it because the Civic body/chassis is lighter, and the Integra engine is stolen. :blush:
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    The stolen part makes sense, but they share a chassis. The Integra was heavier because it had a bigger engine, bigger brakes, and so on.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I think that it because the Civic body/chassis is lighter, and the Integra engine is stolen

    LOL good one, probably true in many cases.

    It's funny how the 90s cars I grew up with are becoming project cars nowadays.

    In the early 90s I'd see so much American iron, beat up with huge bondo patches on it, like Novas Chevelles, Malibus etc... I was always wondering what the cars of my generation would look like in 10-15 years. And now you see a lot of unfinished import project cars from the 90s, Integras, Civics, and Mitsu Eclipses being by far the most common, with unpainted moster body kits, cracked front fiberglass airdams from hiiting the curbs, mismatched wheels, mismatched spoilers etc...

    I guess that's my generation of hobbyists who gave up on their projects.

    Ever wonder what project cars in 20 years will look like? I can see there being aftermarket kits for Navi raplacements, i Drive fix-it programs, etc.....

    We're moving away from the mechanical car and into a world of electronics. You will need a computer programmer to resotre and fix most of today's cars in 20 years. :cry:

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,161
    "We're moving away from the mechanical car and into a world of electronics. You will need a computer programmer to resotre and fix most of today's cars in 20 years."

    Or (if we're lucky) there will be some $50 gizmo that plugs into the OBDII port and bypasses all that stuff :shades:
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Any reason why you wouldn't prefer a stock TT 300ZX for less money?

    Weight. A stock twin-turbo Z clocks in at around 3600 pounds, while a stock 240SX coupe is more like 2700. Even with the brake upgrades and tranny swap (the 240 manual won't fit the VG engine), you're still well under 3000 pounds. Plus a 240 is a lot easier to find than a TT Z.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I like the Benz van in an odd way. Really unique looking, and it would be one heck of a camper. Bit steep on the price though,

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Audi 5000S -- he'd be lucky to get $750 for it. Nobody but NOBODY wants these (for good reason).

    L6 is optimistically priced.

    1994 Jaguar V-12 is about market correct. Shoot, cheap enough for a classy ride! You can't get a banged up Corolla for that money!

    So, just buy it, and drive it with a smile until it stops one day, then remove the license plates and tip-toe away. What's not to like? :P
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Last night on Overhaulin', they restored a vintage VW 21-window van. Not tricked up at all - very subtle red and cream paint job.

    I wonder what they could do with that MB van.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    VW 21 window vans are worth some good money these days--that makes it a worthwhihle project.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,161
    "So, just buy it, and drive it with a smile until it stops one day, then remove the license plates and tip-toe away. "

    Come on, the copper, steel and aluminum gotta be worth, what, $500?

    Seriousely, what's a salvage yard pay for something like this? Metal prices are way up.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    My $.02 worth- I took a look at that '88 Toyota Celica All-Trac from a few posts back, and I agree that it's priced at double book value. But it sure looks as if it was given the right amount of care and maintenance.

    I also would like to comment that I always found a 1988 Celica to be more technologically advanced than a 1988 Volvo 240. I believe 240s were still using the exact same body sheetmetal as the first 140s from 1968-70. I myself would never buy an old clapped-out 140, and for good reason.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    All true but you could sell a pristine Volvo 240 for 2X its book value a whole lot faster than a Celica All Trac for 2X its value. For one thing I'd imagine that driveline parts for the Celica would be close to unobtanium at this point, whereas the Volvo 240 enjoys an active aftermarket parts pool.

    It would be like paying a premium price for a Sabaru SVX or a Tercel 4WD wagon or a Porsche 912E. These are "weird" cars, very interesting in their own way, but "rare" does not always equal "valuable", and you don't want to get in TOO deep on a "curiosity car".
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Worst M3 ever...

    Highlights - poorly repaired crash damage, check engine light on, odometer read 11k (he thinks the old one was replaced at around 60 something K, not sure how that adds up to 88K), entire lower half of engine coated in a thick layer of oil and grime. Firm on price, because... you guessed it - that is what he owes.

    I made a 140 mile round trip to look at it.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Wow, waste of time for you. Now we know why the photos are taken from a distance.

    I take it it's a rebuild, and a poor one at that, hence the replaced odo, and the other problems with it.

    I bet you he bought new tires to hide alignement and uneven wear issues that old tires would typically show.

    So he financed it, now he's buried in it with problems that he can't afford to fix. :lemon:

    Is that red 80s 3 series still available that you posted earlier? Are you planning to look at it?

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I've emailed the guy about the old red 325. He never replied, but the thing is still on Autotrader a couple of weeks later. I think I will try again. It is around 50 miles away from me. I think I'll insist that he meets me half way due to the M3 debacle.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Did you know as soon as you saw it that it was a roach or did it take a few minutes to sink in?
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I've somehow developed a sixth sense on these cars. Walking up on a car, I can tell if I am at least interested before I get close enough to touch the bumper. I wanted to turn and run from this car. However, even this junker was a lot of fun to drive.

    This reminds me of a story in "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell. The short version is that experienced art people knew a statue was a fake from 10 feet away even though it had been authenticated through various scientific methods. The touchy-feely people were right and the scientists were wrong. It was a fake and somebody lost millions on the purchase.

    I wish my car senses were that developed. I be Shifty can do this with almost any car.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    My FIL has come for another visit. One of his Porsche buddies has some health problems and an old 911 is no longer the best choice for him.

    The car in question is an '86, metallic blue with gold BBS wheels. The owner does most of the work on it himself, but had the engine out and at the Porsche shop my FIL hangs around about 5,000 miles ago. They went through it pretty carefully and fixed oil leaks and such as necessary. It has since developed one very small oil leak. The car is a driver with a few dings and scratches, but overall solid paint. Similar on the interior - no rips, no tears, most everything works, but not ready for anything more than the Walmart parking lot concours. AC works well and is cold...for about 20 minutes. Leave it off for an hour and it is ready for another solid 20 minutes. My FIL has ridden in it many times, and says it is a really nice, solid driver.

    I am expecting some pictures later today. I apparently qualify for the close friend sales price through my FIL.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I can't claim to spot everything wrong with a car visually when I first see it (there are just too many cars and too many models to know which one has the right tail light lenses---you'd have to concentrate on just one or two cars your whole life to be that good) but I can usually size a car up with one quick walk-around, a peek in the interior, ,and lifting the engine lid.

    On the walk-around, I'm looking for ripples in the paint, signs of neglect, uneven "posture" of the car (is it level?), condition of tires. The interior gives me a world in information. If the driver sits in a pig pen, then he's driving a pig.

    Lifting the engine lid tells me immediately the level of maintenance----a) fastidious, B) reactive only, or c)about ZERO.

    If I am further motivated, I"ll kneel down (groan) and check underneath.

    Usually all this takes about 3 minutes tops and then I "know".

    I've bought cars in 30 seconds and rejected them in 15. Now and then I don't even get out of the car--LOL!

    On a Porsche, I always LIFT the car and I always DRIVE it. Given that the engine on a 1986 Porsche is worth almost as much as the entire car, you don't want to mess around here. Many oil leaks are engine-out operations, which in turn suggest clutch work, etc. while you are in there, so an oil leak can nick you a couple thou.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I'll have my FIL take the Porsche back over to the shop before I buy it. What's a fair price?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ah, I'd have to walk around it to know for sure :P

    A 1986 Carrera Coupe in pretty good shape? Maybe $14,000 if everything checks out great? Deduct accordingly for bad paint, interior defects, etc. The AC is an issue. I don't know if you need AC where you live, but generally this system doesn't work all that well and certainly gets in the mechanic's way all the time, costing you money during service intervals.

    too bad it's not a 1987--the clutch is a lot smoother.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    my office-mate, the one who recently bought a '62 Galaxie on eBay, has his 1965 Volvo wagon listed.

    This is actually his second time listing it. First time the high bidder decided to disappear.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,655
    Shame about the rust spots, they really detract from the look and will have a big impact on price.

    The Amazon cars always amused me for how high the door handles were placed.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,802
    And what is your officemate's reserve?

    Why does he talk about himself in the 3rd person? ("Seller bought this car in October '07")
    Unless he isn't the seller??? Very confusing.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    Hmmm, I didn't even notice the part about the 3rd person references. Maybe he thinks it sounds more professional? I know here at work, when we do our monthly reports and other paper-pushing activities, they tell us to always use third person. So maybe it's just ingrained in him? Anyway, he is the seller. Funny, but when he brought it to work the one time and I sat in it, I didn't remember the rust being that bad.

    I think he set the reserve at $2K? The first time it went around, I think it got bid up to $2950.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    $2900? Really? Wow, he hit a home run on that one---which unfortunately wasn't real.

    If I were him I'd take $2,000 in a red hot minute and kiss the buyer (or shake his hand, depending).

    Looks like 'yer typical funky east coast Volvo 122.

    About the only plus I see here is the overdrive transmission. It probably runs lumpy and ornery at idle because of the Weber, which is dumping way too much fuel into the engine and carbonizing the plugs until you get rolling down the highway. (that's my guess anyway).

    Actually, any bid over $1,000 I'd let the car go.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.