Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

1408409411413414854

Comments

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,806
    Tedious rather than complex, right?

    Exactly.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    Congratulations - sounds like you survived quite a trial by fire! I've not done a fwd clutch, just the one on my Mustang (several times :blush: ), actually it was the synchros I'd bust, but same basic work. I can well imagine the alignment headaches you had to deal with...
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    "Endless amount of mechanical work done ..."

    That says everything you need to know. You'll never be done with this car. It'll be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. When you get to the end, you'll start all over on the other side.


    I think the owner just gave up and wanted to sell while the car is still running. The extra top would be another incentive for an unsuspecting Saab buyer:

    "Ooh, look, a nice Saab convertible with extra parts for only $1500- didn't you always wanted a European convertible?"

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Now you know why there's an extra top included. Next time you pass a 900 turbo convertible, look just above the rear quarter windows on either side, and you'll see a hole or something about to be a hole.

    One thing that's a bear on these cars is that the front of the engine faces the firewall, so changing belts, alternator, etc. is really tough.

    On the other hand, doing a clutch is a breeze, since the mainshaft of the transmision can be slide out toward the front of the car---you don't have to remove the transmission to lift the clutch plate out. The clutch slave clyinder, however, is inside the bell housing, so if that fails, you got a problem, as the pressure plate is firmly applied to the disk. I got mine out with a 6-foot fulcrum bar.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,922
    Great - it sounds like clutches on FWD are quite laborious compared to those on RWD vehicles. I am planning to replace the one in my Escort this summer, given its tendency to slip quite a bit when I am not driving in granny mode. :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    Sounds like - do you have a Hanes or Chiltons for your Escort? It should give you a pretty good idea what's involved.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,806
    edited April 2010
    Wait... you can repair an Escort? I thought you were just supposed to crumple it up, toss it aside, and buy a new one. :P

    By the by, the cost for the MR2 through Hagerty... $86/yr. And I did check the box "Yes" where it asked if I would race/autocross it.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    if anything happens, they will send your check back. ;)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,922
    edited April 2010
    I do. I am just hoping I do not have to pull the engine. Otherwise, I will need to build a cherry picker of some sort, and, of course, it will certainly rain the day I decide to do the work (even if the cloud is only the size of my property! :P ).

    Q - Yeah, well, I have never been much of a conformist! :D
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    What is the year/engine size/transmission?

    I'll look it up for you and tell you what might be involved.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,922
    It's a '98 LX with the 2.0L SOHC. I am not sure of the transmission model... its the manual? :blush:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    NO engine removal--but yes you take out the transaxle. You're going to need a tool to hold the flywheel while you undo the pressure plate and also a clutch aligning tool (*highly* recommended) which is very cheap to buy. This pilot tool allow you to align the clutch disk perfectly so that when you stab it with the transmission main shaft it just plops right in there.

    Book says 6.3 hours if you are a pro, + 15 minutes more more for AC, and another 15 for the flywheel if you have to remove it, and 15 more for the pilot bushing if you're going to replace that.

    Soooooo---looks like a fair bit of work for the DIYer---maybe not a one 8 hour day kind of job.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,922
    Okay, thanks for the info/tips! I helped a friend install a new flathead-6 in his M37 a few years ago, and he used one of those alignment tools on that job. It made it much easier than other experiences I have had, but mating the two pieces together was still a real bear of a job.

    Sounds like this may be a job to begin tackling on a Saturday morning so as to give plenty of time to get it up and running before work on Monday! Of course, those books are so generous; I can't imagine it taking more than three hours. :D
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    link title

    certainly unusual, looks like it's in decent shape, and price thus seems reasonable.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    even if that sucker is a frankenstein, it's pretty cool.
    i have this fantasy, which will remain unrealized, about delivering my current high school senior to college in a 60's or 70's wagon, just too far away.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,922
    I find it likable. The rear end is all kinds of funky, but that is other drivers' problems! The price certainly seems reasonable and the car looks to be relatively unmolested aside from the stereo install.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,828
    edited April 2010
    Saab

    The owner is the brother-in-law of a friend of mine.
    Remarkable. -Mathias
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Need a password to access that.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,828
    Hmph.
    Worked for me.
    Here's the text, glommed from "Saabs United:"
    I got an email from a guy named Jerry through the week. He was seeking some more information about a car that owns and is looking to sell.

    I don't normally do 'for sale' stuff here, but this seemed to be an interesting one and even if you're not interested in it as a prospective purchase, you might be able to help out with some information.

    I don't know much about it, so I'll just post what I received, including some background thoughts he tracked down from Chip Lamb, a legend in the vintage Saab community.

    ------

    Hi Steven

    I own a 1970 Saab Rally. 1 of 150 imported into the U.S.A. It is the original orange color. It is in showroom condition. It has been garaged and has 96k miles.

    The badging on fenders and spoiler I added. The rims are from a sonnet as the originals were steel rims. I am looking for a bit more than 12,000 but this gives me a base to determine off of. When I was visiting Trollhatten in the mid 80's Johann Traumer offered me $8,000 for this car as Saab did not keep one for thier prototype museum, but I was not ready to sell at that time.

    Background info received from Chip Lamb:

    What's really interesting is that yours might be the only 1970 model in orange and possibly the car used for promotions. All the other ones I know about (2 other survivors) were 1971 models. Apart from no undercoating and seam-welded joints in the unitbody they were just regular 96es - nothing else. Most of these cars were used as company cars up in CT where they rusted quite quickly due to no undercoating...

    The badging on your front fenders is incorrect - the "SAAB" is from a 1973 95/96 or 73-79 99; "Rallye Sport" from a 1970s Renault if memory serves. You should have a continuation of the spears.

    If you're interested, or if you know some more information about this car/model, the feel free to shoot me an email and I'll forward it on to Jerry.

    As mentioned, I don't normally do 'for sale' stuff but this one seems to be a rather rare example. Of course, this isn't an SU endorsement, however, and you should do your own homework on the car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2010
    The asking price seems shocking for a Saab 96... I mean, how far can you go with "I have the only orange 1970 Saab?"

    If it were a Model 93 GT or something, that would be different.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    In the end, I feel like it may have been easier to pull the engine and trans at once and take them apart out of the car, but we didn't do it that way. It was the reassembly that proved difficult. Trying to muscle the darned thing back in place, while trying to delicately align the shaft, and all while "twisting" it in place past the various mounts (would you believe it has 3 trans mounts and 2 engine mounts!).

    Back when I first started college, one of of friends had a 57(?) Chevy. It needed a new transmission, automatic if I remember correctly. We, we swapped out the old one and put the new one in laying on our backs under the car in the alley in back of his dad's house. IIRC, we use a hydraulic jack and some wood to help lift the tranny in place until we could get it bolted up. It did run after we were done, at least long enough (a year or two) until he was able to save enough money to buy a VW Beetle.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    edited April 2010
    ....award for most overpriced (BIN price) heap goes to:

    link title

    While I really like these cars in general, they're far from rare (115500-ish Caprices, not counting wagons, were built for '68 model year), so let's say half were coupes, and they've survived far more than sedans. This one, while fairly well-equipped, isn't loaded to the point that it's unusual (tilt, buckets, 396, hidden headlights and rally wheels, were all fairly common on Caprice coupes). Cosmetically, it needs everything (and I'm wondering how that trunk looks, what with the no rear window and all). The Very Nicest One On Earth of these might sell for $20k (far more factory loaded and pristine), usually more like $17k (the best wagon version I've ever seen sold for $15k a couple months ago on eBay). As Shiftright says (apologies for paraphrasing), you ain't gettin' there from here for all the work this thing needs.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Would you keep track of it? I'm going to estimate that it'll bid to around $2500. Maybe if the bidders are all drunk and inject meth into the base of their skulls---$3500.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,806
    Ouch. The "book" is telling you almost an hour longer than my MR2. That's not good.

    If you buy a clutch kit, if you can find one, it comes with the disc, pressure plate, throwout bearing, and that alignment tool. I found mine on ebay for $99 plus $20 shipping. It was OEM brand (Exedy).

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,922
    edited April 2010
    Ah, well. I am no stranger to tedious automotive projects, so bring it on! All I have to do is take a look at the gnarly scar on my arm from last year's replacement of the ball joints on that Escort and I feel much better. :shades:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,922
    Somewhat unbelievably, an advertisement for a nice old MB popped up recently on the local Craigslist:

    1967 250 SE

    I saw this car in person a few years back in a parking lot and it looked to be in very decent condition at the time. While rust is not usually an issue here, it still amazes me that this car has lived here so long and fared relatively well....
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    edited April 2010
    Price is quite fair, if it is roadworthy. It's not worth a fortune more than that, but certainly no harm done if it all checks out well enough. However it's not a car that likes to live outside...so it will need care.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Nice old MB to have for Sunday drives. Price seems ok assuming it needs no major work,

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I agree, price is definitely fair, IFF it doesn't need a fortune in repairs. It'll never be a super-expensive car, but certainly pretty, and yes, 'classy', for sure (it even has factory electric windows, how nice).
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,922
    IFF it doesn't need a fortune in repairs

    Yeah, and no way of telling at this point aside from being able to see that it is in good shape cosmetically. The seller certainly is not loquacious, but at least he can spell! :D
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    This is somewhat of a transitional model in the US. I certainly wouldn't pay much for it. Could be a real money pit. It doesn't have the collectability of the Fintails, or the desirability of the later 280SE, and is heavy and slow. Would be about my last choice for a postwar Benz. There's nowhere here to go but down.
  • garv214garv214 Member Posts: 162
    Don't hold back now Shifty, we want to know what you really think... ;)
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    So the fuel injection doesn't give it any hope? I kinda thought the carbureted gassers would have been a step down.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Yeah, I was going to say, a 250S is a step down. It is indeed a transitional model, I think the 280SE was out the next year.

    If it runs, drives, stops, steers, and isn't rusty, $2500 isn't bad, and it could probably be had for 20 Benjamins.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Fintails? Collectible? I never thought I'd see that :shades:

    Of course, a lot of boring and low value cars are "collectible"...but that word isn't used for many old MB sedans.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2010
    Well I'm not saying that Fintails are way up there, but a W 108 250SE sedan isn't even on anybody's radar. This was a 3-year only model and was soon replaced with the much better and more modern 250 (W114). Aside from a 0-60 time of 13 seconds, (and that's pushing hard) the car was a gas hog at about 13-14 mpg. If this car needs any serious repair, it is essentially worthless IMO. Of all the Mercedes in all the world, this one would be on my list of "5 MBs never to buy".

    Any of the old 250s 280s from the 60s and 70s are dirt dirt cheap. You pretty much have your pick in the $2000 to $3000 range.

    So buy a 68-72 220 (the best) 250 or 280 and be happy, is my advice.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    what he really thinks? what do you think we paying him for? oops.
    pro bono is a wonderful thing. :blush:
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    For a small fee I'll highly recommend this car. Of course, I'll have to change my username to Mr_Faust. :P
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I have a friend that was offered a free one - a 1974 240D.

    The car is apparently original, in great shap and very well cared for. Well it was anyway until the owner died about four years ago. Since then, it has just sat in the garage.

    I know these are slow and boring, but we are pondering if it is worth the trouble of getting it back into driving shape. It is an interesting piece of history. Of course, it is probably no more exciting to drive than just sitting behind the wheel in the driveway.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Are they really that bad on gas? My 220SE will do around 17 in town, 22 on the highway...not stellar, but acceptable, and to spec. I think my car is at least marginally faster, too. Was that W108 somehow dumbed down?

    A W114 is so boring looking...I think what draws people to the 108s is their classic looks...not weird like a fintail, not boring like later cars.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    For free? If it is not rotten and has no massive deferred maintenance, why not. Old diesels are like tractors, it shouldn't be too intensive to get it back in running condition - assuming that it had no problems when it was originally retired. The biggest issues with it will be dangerous for highway merging acceleration, huge bumpers, and probably a beige on brown or similar color scheme.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah I'm with The Fin on the 240D---it is definitely worth getting it running as long as you can live with the re-incarnated life form that you brought back from the grave. Or you could just get it running, have it detailed and flip it for a profit to the cooking-oil freaks. These are quaint, neat cars and I like 'em for what they are.

    Probably the most objectionable feature of this car, aside from the ....ahem....leisurely acceleration which could trap you in a right hand merge lane forever or force you to take the shoulder on a long hill climb....the worst thing would be the vibration from the engine wearing you down as you drive.

    250SE -- yeah, they are gas hogs. You remember maybe that I used to work for MBNA in Montvale and had to deal with customer relations; also if you check published road testing you'll see this is about the right MPG in the "real world". Naturally, if you're like me, you can squeeze better MPG out of a car than the average bear, by using only mid-throttle acceleration and anticipating red lights and traffic slow downs.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    What is a 240D in decent driver condition worth?
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    IFF=learned in math class, 8th grade:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    edited April 2010
    I am surprised that small displacement difference (from my 220SE) would kill mileage like that.

    Regarding value, a 240D in very clean cosmetic condition (no dents, no rust, good shiny paint, excellent tex interior) and without mechanical needs should be worth a few grand, but it'll be tough to go mugh higher unless the car is really exceptional.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It would probably be an ideal car for driving around on city streets.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ....how much more weight that 250SE is carrying around than your Fintail, though. I'm thinking the power-to-weight ratio isn't any better, either.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    ....how much more weight that 250SE is carrying around than your Fintail, though. I'm thinking the power-to-weight ratio isn't any better, either.

    They might have also played around with gearing, as well. Sometimes it doesn't take much of a change to impact acceleration. For instance, Mopar changed the standard axle ratio in the 225 slant six Darts and Valiants from a 2.94:1 in 1967 to a 2.76:1 in 1968, and 0-60, as recorded by Consumer Reports, went from 13 seconds to 14.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    "It would probably be an ideal car for driving around on city streets. "

    A 240D? Man, I would not have fun in traffic, flooring it just to keep up. I'm just not much of a fan of these. I pulled onto the freeway, passed a 240D that was working its way up to the speed limit. 3 miles later it passed me, finally got itself up to 70 or so....
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    My folks owned a '72 MB 220D for a few years. Gawd, it was painful waiting for it to accelerate. Stiffest throttle spring I've ever encountered. And, no cruse, either. We took it from SoCal to Sacramento once (along I-5) and my ankle hurt after an hour behind the wheel.

    However, it tracked straight as an arrow on the highway.

    For Christmas one year, I secured personalized plates for it as a gift to my folks:

    REAL SLO
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