Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail · January 2011

Wow, that hurts...brakes and rotors for my AMG car would be less.

texases · January 2011

Good description of what it really takes to drive a car over 500k miles

explorerx4 · January 2011

Shifty, we need you here.
I think the owner could have bought a couple of new ones, for the price of continuation.

qbrozen · January 2011

so his 1000-mile old engine is leaking. Has this guy ever heard of a warranty?

lemmer · January 2011

If an air cooled 911 isn't leaking oil from somewhere, it probably doesn't have any oil in it. Maybe not dripping, but a bare minimum of residue here and there.

qbrozen · January 2011

Yeah, I've read that ... but a front crank seal? Ugh!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2011

I guess he pushed it to 500K for the same reason people climb mountains. There really is no point to it.

omarman · January 2011

1. Engine rebuilt at 496,197mi (current mileage is 521k)
2. Engine reseal and bottom end bearings replaced at 520,561mi
3. Front crank seal leaks. I have an entire engine seal kit that I'll give to the new owner

Not trying to be too too nitpicky, but who rebuilt the engine at 496k miles? Seller states that the engine was "Converted to 3.8L by Andial and auxiliary oil cooler installed at 400,000mi." No mention of who did the engine work after that.

And a $10k repaint is pretty extravagant too. Spend that much to paint a miled up car worth $16k and insured for ??? Just curious, what is the most anyone here would spend to repaint your pride-and-joy, high-miles, daily driver?

fintail · January 2011

Had this project car on the road today...first time driven in 4 weeks, started on the first turn of the key as always.

Had an older guy approach me, and say he had some spare parts for my car that he'd give me. Turns out they were from a 200D - he thought all fintails were the same.

I talked to a friend today who said he saw a "car just like yours" in a movie. He meant the 280SE Cabrio in "The Hangover". Funny.

explorerx4 · January 2011

It wasn't this guy was it?

He was pretty good with a soccer ball, as I remember.

fintail · January 2011

Not sure who that is, but the car looks my color, and those are the kind of tires I want when I replace the aging rubber on the car now. Cool.

texases · January 2011

Google 'Pele Mercedes' and read all about it!

fintail · January 2011

I was going to guess that with the soccer hint, but I didn't remember what he looks like...cool. I found that the pic is from 1966, the car would have been fairly new then if not new. I also found another vintage pic of him with an MB...he had good taste in cars.

lemmer · February 2011

Do you per chance have a naked Asian guy in your trunk?

jrosasmc · February 2011

How would these fare as projects:

http://austin.craigslist.org/cto/2194461710.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270698414552+&view- item=

That Benz wagon looks promising.

fintail · February 2011

That 123 is insanely nice - bids are insanely high, but they do have a legitimate cult around them, so I can believe it.

Car does seem to have some orange peel paint surfaces on the A-pillars and just below the front door beltline, could be an illusion but it caught by eye. Otherwise...wow.

Several years ago an MB specialist I patronized when I lived elsewhere had an 85 like that, black on palomino, spotless. He put it up for sale for $7500 and it sold in an instant.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

The '64 Alfa might be a good buy--one would have to see it in real life but presuming it is solid and mostly original, the few mods done to it can be easily corrected. The only way for these early Spiders is up, up and UP.

Benz TD Wagon --- looks so much nicer than the usual beat=up, worn-out. high mileage rats you see for sale. Can't say if the price is justified, since it is so unusual.

explorerx4 · February 2011

SVX

ab348 · February 2011

I used to see a few of these around locally. Probably haven't seen one in close to 10 years though. "Rare" may well be true.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

Parts are unobtanium and I know 2 Subaru specialist garages and they refuse to work on them. I toyed with the idea of buying one a few years back and I got such flak from these guys that I decided not to. Without a good parts source and a good tech support, I was hesitant to have an SVX as my "first car".

explorerx4 · February 2011

If you have a change of heart, there is a least one east coast unobtanium parts car available for less than 6 grand. :shades:

qbrozen · February 2011

so what else do you do but browse vehicles?

ya know, all the snow these days has me thinking.

Roughest 47k miles a vehicle has ever seen.

This guy has a habit of leaving the mileage off his cars.

Hey, kids, look! Its the most efficient powertrain ever made! No power lost from crank to wheels!

steine13 · February 2011

you and me both, brother...

i like the troop carrier... you could paint it pink and make it into a 'troupe' carrier, right?

i'd like mine armored, though...

the jag looks nice. i'm guessing the mileage is really low.

cheers -m

andre1969 · February 2011

I always hated the term "brake" horsepower, because it does imply that the reading is taken at the wheels or brakes. But really, it's just another word for net hp.

I wonder how much hp the average car "loses" between the flywheel and the pavement? I remember reading that my 2000 Intrepid was one of the worst offenders. 200 hp from a tiny 2.7 that sounded good on paper, but only 150 made it to the wheels. Part of the problem was the transmission. Early versions of that tranny were weak, so I think they redesigned it to, for lack of a better word, "dump" some of that hp along the way in order to save itself.

steine13 · February 2011

Early versions of that tranny were weak, so I think they redesigned it to, for lack of a better word, "dump" some of that hp along the way in order to save itself.

Hmmm.. that brings up an obvious point I never thought much about... where does the energy go? Unlike torque and force, energy is strictly conserved... as is power in a steady-state situation. So the answer has to be "heat" which is really not a good way to make a transmission last... 50 hp is a LOT, that's roughly 30 kW... that's enough power to heat TWO goodsized houses, maybe three or four, in cold weather... how do you cool that away? I'd say you can't, and you don't have to because it's not a steady-state situation; at sustained high speed, the torque converter would be locked and the losses would have to be much less.

Do you remember how that number was measured?

Cheers -Mathias

andre1969 · February 2011

Do you remember how that number was measured?

Nah, and in fact, it could just be hearsay. I remember someone in one of my Mopar clubs mentioning that stock, the 2.7 only put out about 150 hp at the wheels, but there was aftermarket support for it, and it could be boosted to 250 hp or so, at the wheels.

What about just making the transmission slip, or not fully engage somehow?

One little trick I found with my Intrepid, to get it to go faster, is if you held the revs to around 4900 rpm, which is about where peak torque was, it would take off faster and hold the gears longer than if you simply floored it, where it would go to around 6,000 rpm and then upshift.

steine13 · February 2011

What about just making the transmission slip, or not fully engage somehow?

That's what I'm trying to say: Now you're dumping the better part of 30 kW of heat into your transmission and it'll die. That can't be helpful...

OTOH, that may be what's going on during hard acceleration when the torque converter is not bridged by the mechanical clutch... that's gonna be hard on the transmission, but it won't last more than 20 seconds, max... after that you're at 100+ mph and in full lockup no matter what... and can take your time cooling the fluid back down.

Aren't their some automotive engineers on this site who would know this stuff?
Inquiring minds want to know!

Cheers -m

qbrozen · February 2011

rule of thumb is 15% in an automatic and 10% manual.

So that 260hp Altima would be about 220 at the wheels.

Can't say with 100% certainty, but I think its attributed to many things. Frictional losses, heat losses, ummm... whatever you call it when things flex under pressure. So in an auto, the torque converter is like 5% by itself.

steine13 · February 2011

Can't say with 100% certainty, but I think its attributed to many things. Frictional losses, heat losses, ummm... whatever you call it when things flex under pressure. So in an auto, the torque converter is like 5% by itself.

I'm surprised it's that high in a manual... those aren't cooled except by fins in the bottom. And they're typically maintenance free to 200k or so...

Frictional losses = heat losses. One nice thing about physics, it's reliable... friction always makes heat... it's gotta make something, so other than heat, what is there? Noise doesn't take a lot of energy... it all becomes heat in short order. That's why most if not all automatics have a transmission cooler, and if they don't it's a good idea to add one.

CHeers -Mathias

fintail · February 2011

11 year old Jag with unknown miles and suffering an electrical system issue.
Yeah, not the best idea.

To be fair, Nissan seller doesn't say the power is at the wheels, does he?

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

Well the Jaguar alternator, installed at a Jaguar shop would probably run you $800, presuming that was the problem in the first place.

The car shows 98,000 miles one year ago, so figure it's about 110K right now.

Private party retail is about $4500, mileage is a 'neutral' with no deduct, minus $800 for alternator, minus 10% negotiation on retail, that leaves us with a fair offer on the car of about $3200.

You might as well just go buy a clean, good-running Lincoln LS, which is essentially the same car underneath.

fintail · February 2011

I bet it has other issues - I can't see why a seller wouldn't fix it otherwise. I just can't trust those things.

The latest "Top Gear" magazine I have has an update on the new XJ in their test fleet. Several electrical glitches.

srs_49 · February 2011

Though not exactly what you were asking about, this chart from the governments fueleconomy web site shows where the losses are in a typical vehicle:

Energy Losses in a Car

texases · February 2011

Someone explain to me how many Harley engines end up in cars:

steine13 · February 2011

Well it's a little complicated by putting in the thermodynamic losses of the engine + idle times... if you take simply the losses in the drive line -- 5.6 percent -- and divide by the engine (input - losses) = output = 37.6 percent -- you find a figure that makes sense: 15 percent of the power coming out of the engine is eaten up by gears, bearings, torque converters, and the like.

Cheers -Mathias

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

I'm not sure why they even end up in motorcycles, but that's a different topic.

hoosiergrandad · February 2011

I had a 2000 Intrepid ES with the 3.2 motor.......I also think an inordinate amount of power disappeared on the way to the wheels.......might have been that the longitudinally mounted engine wasn't such a great idea in terms of efficient power transfer.

qbrozen · February 2011

To be fair, Nissan seller doesn't say the power is at the wheels, does he?

eh. Ya know, you're right. He says "pushing 250hp to the wheels" not AT the wheels.

qbrozen · February 2011

You might as well just go buy a clean, good-running Lincoln LS, which is essentially the same car underneath.

Same platform, but that's about where it ends. I had an LS-V8 for a little while. Nice enough car, but horrible mileage and ultimately boring.

Not that this would be any better. I did test drive the S-type before buying the Lincoln. I liked the Jag a big better but what did it for me at that time was the little fact that replacing 1 of those electronically controlled shocks on the Jag was something like $1,000 vs about $100 on the LS.

stickguy · February 2011

a few years back the Infiniti dealer near me had a used LS V6 - 5 speed stick on the lot. Was even my favorite dark blue. I think this was before I had my Accord though, but not sure what I had at the time.

never did go look at it though, even though I think it was at a pretty low price for the time.

I did drive a v8 AT (obviously) when they first came out, but it wasn't very long and I honestly don't remember it much.

andre1969 · February 2011

One of my coworkers, a die-hard Lincoln fan, bought an LS with the V-6 when they first came out. 2000 I think it was? Memory's getting fuzzy now. Anyway, now he's a die-hard Acura fan, and that LS had a lot to do with it.

I forget what exactly went wrong with it, but I believe it ate a transmission almost immediately, then something else went bad, and then transmission #2 was about to go. It was bad enough that the dealer took it back and gave him a really good deal on an '01 LS with a V-8. He never had any trouble with that one, but traded it at around 50,000 miles for an Acura TL. And ever since then, he would always trade roughly every 50,000 miles. He has a current-gen TL right now, a 2009 I believe, that he's leasing. I hate to imagine what his monthly payment is, with the kind of miles he puts on! 50,000 miles usually comes up within two years.

toomanyfumes · February 2011

The LS had a lot of issues when it first came out. Sway bar links, tranny issues, coils, window regulators, etc. By 2003, when the second gen came out, they resolved many of the problems. I have had my 2005 LS for three years, it's been a good car other than replacing the ignition coils.

isellhondas · February 2011

This one just showed up on Craigslist and it's in my backyard.

Looks interesting and even tempting BUT, I know the pitfalls.

Anyone know anything about these?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/2210612431.html

Someone please talk me down!

stickguy · February 2011

well craig, you probably will have the only one in town!

if you like it, a cheap diversion, and you can always bail after you get tired of tinkering with it in the garage. Cheaper than getting a girl friend, or going to the casinos!

Just don't give it to a shop for a full restore.

what would you want to do with it? Put around on the weekends as is? A DIY restore keeping it original? Or go nuts, and turn it into a street rod? Now that could be a fun project to keep you busy until you are 75!

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

It's a pedestrian car to be sure, and I have no idea how long it would take to track down parts for it. If it already had a nice body and interior, I'd say put a Toyota engine and trans in it, but as it is, it seems like the road to nowhere.

isellhondas · February 2011

Yeah, I know. I guess I'm just attracted to oddball cars and THAT is about as oddball as they come.

With those Girling mechanical brakes I don't know that I would want to put a modern engine in it.

Hardly a freeway flyer when it was new.

isellhondas · February 2011

I think I would try to get it running and maybe clean it up a bit as a survivor.

I sure as hell wouldn't take it on the freeway but it would be fun to take it to the local car shows int he summer maybe drive it around the lake once in awhile.

But I know I'm dreaming. A basket case engine that "probably" needs a rebuild? Gee, do ya think so?

Or I could spend 100,000 or more making it into a cool resto rod with a 350 engine, maybe a blower etc?

But if I did that, I wouldn't be able to crank start it anymore!

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

what's the engine--isn't it a little flathead?

fintail · February 2011

I like it. Not many "sit up and beg" Prefects in NA that haven't been chopped up into dragsters. Looks complete, parts won't be hard to find, but it also looks like it needs everything redone. Could be fun.

isellhondas · February 2011

I tried to figure out how to email him but I couldn't get it to work.

Maybe we could go look at it together since it's right here in Issaquah?

Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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