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I wonder if some dealers are pocketing the credit and still charging the customer for new wheels? Of course if the old wheels are gouged or scraped (or perhaps very dirty) a dealer might say they have no "core" value. This could be true, or not.
If a dealer quotes $600 or $700 apiece, and you have good wheels, call them on it. Ask them why they are not passing the credit along to you, as is intended. $200 should be the max. Make noise. Or call another dealer. You can drive pretty far to save $1600 on a set of tires.
Even when the transaction is done properly, these tires ain't cheap.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
But another way to look at it is this: TPMS can alert a driver to a slow leak well before it can damage the tire, thereby preventing many blowouts and roadside tire changes --That's why TPMS has been made mandatory by the US government. Lamp comes on, driver finds a gas station, has a look-see, adds air or has the tire patched as necessary, and goes about his business.
With that in mind, are run-flats worth the extra hassle? Is a 2007 Honda EX, now with TPMS, a more compelling choice than it was last year?
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
We just need some one with a Touring model to do a "TEST" drive of a new EX and switch out the wheels to see if its a straight swap.
People who get extra good or extra poor service are the ones who comment, naturally. But, for a prospective buyer, these are misleading.
Any suggestions as to trying to find out what mileage :confuse: joe Bagodonuts is getting from these tires? :confuse:
Based on my experience with the EnTire/TRW system, the sensors should be the same. It is the receivers inside the van, and the software in the ECU that would be different.
A quick way to check would be to call a Honda parts department and ask if the in-wheel TPMS sensor assembly part numbers for a 2006 Touring and a 2007 EX are the same...
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Best Regards,
Shipo
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Only partially true. As I understand it, TireRack now sells rims that can accept the TPMS sensors. Assuming that's true, then they don't need the ridiculous PAX rims.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The PAX tire may go 40K, or may be shot at 10K.
Should there be a puncture, the tire can be repaired, again an a substantial cost over conventional tires.
Does this about sum up where we are at?
One other note on replacement tires: Not only must the outside diameter be the same, but the load rating -that number just after the tire size- must be equal to or greater than the original tire. The Odyssey EX's 235/65R16 load rating is 103. Very important. NOTE: P235/65R16 is NOT the same size, as it has a lower 101 load rating. Watch that P! Many tire stores screw this part up.
If you go with the EX size (no P), you're covered, but if you go for larger diameter wheels, and lower profile tires, watch to make sure that load rating is at least 103! Of all automobiles, minivans run right at the limit of their load rating, owing to the vehicle's large size/weight and relatively small tires.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Hmmm, kind of funny as I see it just the opposite. We are a two van family with one of the vans nearing 130,000 miles and due for replacement in the foreseeable future (the replacement isn't a requirement, its just that the older one is getting a little long in the tooth). If it comes to pass that the Oddy gets nod this time around it would most likely be the Touring model. That said, I would absolutely dump the PAX system in favor of conventional wheels (with the TMPS sensors installed) and tires as I see the unconventional PAX system as being "really weak."
FWIW, the newer of our two vans has conventional tires and a TPMS system and as Mrs. Shipo has a tendency of finding nails (once this year), screws (three times this year) and curbs (once this year damaging the sidewall of both right side tires) with fair regularity, the TPMS on her van has proven itself to be quite valuable.
Due to the above incidents I've needed to buy three new tires with a total cost of just over $400. Were it that she was driving a van with the PAX system those same three tires would come to $1,800 (if you believe our local Honda dealers' claim of $600 per wheel/tire assembly). Even if I could find a place to do the deed for $200 per wheel, that's still $600 or half again as much as what I've spent on three new Goodyear Assurance TripleTred tire replacements.
Yup, I’m very convinced that the PAX system is extremely weak.
BTW, your statement about a new wheel and tire set costing $1,500 is a bit high. I can get a set of AT Italia S5 wheels shod with Michelin Energy LX4 tires shipped to my house for $1,114.86 (including mounting, balancing, taxes and shipping charges) from TireRack.com.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Obviously, you may put more miles on your cars than I do and may take longer trips than I do and I can understand where the need for a run-flat may not be your cup of tea. In my situation the PAX system works just fine and if my wife has a flat she knows to check the tire and then drive to the dealer for replacement.
I'm happy that you understand the value of the Touring model as it really is a bargain and it drives like a dream...PAX and all. I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Touring model all over again.
My only point here, quite frankly, is to praise the Touring model for what it is and believe that people should take a good look at this model regardless of how they feel about the PAX system. This is one beautiful ride for the dough.
That is all! enjoy the ride
Krzys
Were it that she had RFTs of any type (PAX or otherwise) on her van there is little doubt that we would have had to replace both tires anyway as the cuts in the sidewall were down to the belting material. Would she have been able to continue to drive after the incident? Yes. That said, she made it to her office which was another 20 miles beyond where she caught the curb just as the TPMS system was registering a low tire.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regular run-flat: Since no support ring exists, I'd have to say "it depends" on how big the slice is. I don't think they'd do as well with a "2-inch hole" in them, as used in the above PAX demo. It is hard to generalize here.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
1. What's the approximate cost of just the PAX tire at a Honda Dealer?
2. What's the approximate cost of just the PAX tire at a Michelin store?
3. What's the approximate cost of the entire PAX tire/wheel assembly at a Honda Dealer and Michelin store?
4. What is the replacement policy by a Honda dealer, and a Michelin store if the tire is non-repairable?
Thank you!!
Thanks.
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I've just joined the fray on this list, so here's my story and what I know:
My 05 Touring has only 17,000 miles, and the treads have about 5/32 left. While they're probably okay for dry road driving, I'm in the mountains of CO and it's ski season. A few days ago my wife had to park the van at the bottom of a hill because she couldn't drive up on the snowpack.
I've been looking for the "best solution" to get snow tires and possibly rid myself of this whole PAX debacle. I thought the "new rims and standard tires" route (possibly from TireRack.com as suggested several times) might be a contender. To that end I e-mailed their retail Sales Mgr with my story and got this in reply:
-------------------------------------------------
On 11/16/06, Bruce xxxxx, wrote:
Hi Tim,
Only your dealer can sell you replacement PAX parts. They can get PAX Winter tires too. Despite what the thread says [Tim's note: this thread] we've recently found out that these PAX equipped vehicles should only use the wheels and tires that are designed specifically for them because that is what the suspension systems were set up for.
My recommendation would be to contact your Honda Dealer for the correct PAX products to get you through the Winter safely.
Hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Bruce xxxxx | Retail Sales Manager
The Tire Rack
[contact info removed]
-------------------------------------------------
Prior to receiving his response, I'd spoken with two Honda dealers and two Discount Tire stores identified on the Michelin web site as authorized PAX System Dealers. The Honda dealer in town and one of the Discount Tire stores told me point blank that there were no PAX snow tires. The dealer quoted me $330/wheel for regular PAX tires, either wheel-swap or just the tires. I don't like or trust this dealer, so I won't be going there. The first Discount Tire knew absolutely nothing (new guy) except that their PAX machine was broken and they weren't in any rush to have it fixed. The second Discount Tire store only offered the regular tires @ $188/ea, but install kicked the bill up to $1,200.
The 2nd Honda dealer is about 90 miles away, and is where I bought the van. Initially their service manager also said there were no snow tires, but by my second call he'd collaborated with his parts manager and found that the Michelin X-Ice has a PAX compatible version. They quoted me $870 for the set of 4, plus $120 install.
Of course, that'll mean doing the twice-per-year tire swap at $100-$200 a whack.
I'm still wondering if the 07 EX/LX TPMS-equipped tires might be an acceptable swap for the 05 PAX? I don't like the idea that I can't just go to one of the local tire dealers. Or, what if I have a flat in the middle of the Mojave on a Friday night on my way to DisneyLand and there are no Honda dealers open until Monday? That's just nuts.
Tim
Thinking about this further; while I do have some concerns about RTFs in general, none of those concerns are a "Show Stopper" per-se. That said, unless a vehicle is equipped with a jack and a spare tire, RFTs are a non-starter for me. Fortunately the Odyssey can be made to clear that hurdle with the addition of a jack and spare tire from lesser Odysseys.
The problem here is that the PAX/TPMS system that comes as standard issue on the Odyssey Touring adds in another wrinkle, namely that of the non-standard tire size. Said non-standard size requires special equipment for mounting and is usually accompanied by a fairly long lead time (compared to conventional tires) when a replacement is required. With the above in mind, I’m going to have to cross the Odyssey Touring off my list of potential replacement vans as there simply is no way I would drive a vehicle with such a potential exposure
Best Regards,
Shipo
Smart move by Toyota.
Maybe...just maybe, if more manufacturers continue to engage the Michelin PAX system there would be more plentiful opportunities for repair and replacement out there. One can only hope.
I wouldn't bet on it. More and more this PAX experiment seems to be resembling the Michelin TRX debacle of the late 1970s and early 1980s. No thanks, count me out.
What I'm still trying to figure out is "Why?"
I kind of have the "Why?" thing figured out as to why RFTs were created in the first place, reasons that don't apply to me, but I can see how some folks might like them.
The big "Why?" in my mind is why change the wheel and mounting hardware? Do PAX tires perform better that standard RFTS? Do PAX tires ride better, last longer, cost less? Do they do anything demonstrably better than conventional RTFs? If so, enough to try and reinvent the wheel? I rather doubt it.
Best Regards,
Shipo
That same dealer told me that, even as we speak, Honda is testing Tourings with non-PAX wheels for stability and handling performance.
Tim
PAX is based on a different principle with its inner support ring and, at least on the Odyssey, ride pretty close to the same as conventional rubber.
Unsprung weight is still unsprung weight and the laws of physics are very clear on this issue, the lighter the wheel and tire assembly, the better the ride and handling will be. Suspension life will increase as well due to the fact that said suspension will have far less work to do when being driven over any given road at any given speed. Some BMW dealers are squawking the same line of drivel as Honda right now, even to the extent of suggesting that the warranty on a new 3-Series will be voided out if non RFT tires are used. Not buying that either. The fact is that every 3-Series owner I've talked with here and elsewhere who has replaced their heavy RFTs with GFTs (Gets Flat Tires) has experienced significant improvements in ride, handling and lower lap times on the track as well.
Regarding a claimed superiority in ride and handling of the PAX system over conventional RFTs, yes, I might buy that a little, however, given the extra weight of the PAX system over conventional RFTs, my bet is that they are nearer than not in the harshness department.
The reality for me is that as inconvenient as a flat tire might could well be, I'll gladly change a tire here and there so that I can have GFTs on all of my cars.
Best Regards,
Shipo
They show the Size:235-710R460A 104T Energy LX4.
Is this the PAX? there is no mention of RunFlat on this tire, or is this a regular tire with the right sizing?
There is also a winter tire listed X-Ice with same measurments.