I need to cut across 3 lanes of traffic... I punch it, and the car goes... I see another car coming up faster than I thought, so I let off the accelerator (stay in my lane).... car slows down to let me over, so I punch it again.... nothing .... nothing... nothing... Other car speeds up, thinking I'm not going to get over... THEN my car accelerates.
I never left my lane until I built up some speed, but I can see how this car would be accident prone.
It would be interesting to see rates of accidents statistics year over year for this model, that's all I'm saying.
I won't post much anymore because it's like telling a friend that you are experiencing excrutiating back pain, only to be told by the "friend" that he doesn't notice anything wrong with my back and that the pain must be my imagination; (similar to a test drive with a Toyota rep). A very frustrating experience. In all honesty, there are a couple of posters on this forum I wish would go away since they offer no constructive opinions, do not own an affected car and continue to insult those of us who are enduring a miserable driving experience. I do appreciate however, my disatisfaction being validated by the Lexus and Avalon forums as well as many in this forum, not to mention many auto mags, newspaper articles and even an admittance by Toyota that a one second hesitation is "normal". If this is a normal chartacteristic of a 5 speed DBW configuration, then why are there no other manufacture "Engine Hesitation" forums? I will tell you why. The other manufacturers have worked out the bugs in the confuguration before the cars were offered to the public. Now, it would cost Toyota BILLIONS of dollars to remedy. Better to sweep this one under the rug until the next model comes out. Spin, Spin Spin.
All: I look forward to the time that someone with a "problem" car gets with someone with the online diagnostic monitor. Hard data is what is required ! I have postponed an Avalon purchase as a result of this forum. Surprizingly I am now looking at a Hyundai. . .
that in some sense Toyota may be technically ahead of the competition. I would be concerned about the purchase of any FWD or front torque biased AWD in these times of "transition".
The RAV4, at the very bottom of the SUV food chain, now has rear biased AWD/4WD. I suspect that very soon all manufacturers will be looking for some way to alleviate or reduce the effects of engine compression braking on the front wheels.
Personally I would have chosen some "indicator" to let the driver know that "best" or better MPG can be obtained by upshifting but not actually upshift until the driver somehow acknowledges or some set time period has expired.
Our 88 911 has a light in the instrument panel which illuminates to indicate that an upshift is a "good" idea. But the driver can chose to ignore the indication and often does.
I won't post much anymore because it's like telling a friend that you are experiencing excrutiating back pain, only to be told by the "friend" that he doesn't notice anything wrong with my back and that the pain must be my imagination; (similar to a test drive with a Toyota rep). A very frustrating experience. In all honesty, there are a couple of posters on this forum I wish would go away since they offer no constructive opinions, do not own an affected car and continue to insult those of us who are enduring a miserable driving experience.
I wish you wouldn't let that be your reason for not posting here. I would hazard a guess that most of us here sympathize with you and benefit from your experience, especially what you went through with arbitration and hopefully from what you are going through with the lemon lawyers. I hope you won't let the periodic negativity chase you away.
I replaced a Lexus GS400 this summer with a 2005 Avalon. Both models do not respond well to having their accelerators 'punched' - but both have more than adequate acceleration for any planned manouevre. A gentle touch with progessive pressure produces good results in both these 5-speed automatics, V-8 and V-6 alike. Drive-by-wire designs may respond more satisfyingly for those of us who learned with direct linkage if we adjust our approach - recognizing that we are achieving well over 20 mpg for our trouble... compared with my 428 Mercury that yielded 12-15.
if it were only so simple. i can plan manouvers in advance if for example, i know my brake pedal is going to go to the floor possibly, because my master cylinder is bad, or i have air in the lines and it hasn't been fixed yet.
the problem is when you are not consciously planning manuvers, and you do so without thinking about all of them: your brain depending upon lots of learning acquired over many years of driving and other causal events.
'... you do so without thinking about all of them: your brain depending upon lots of learning acquired over many years of driving...'
Relying on old habits in 21st Century traffic while operating computer-laden vehicles may not work well. I guess the question is whether we adapt, or cling to patterns that served us well in the past.
One thing you should be aware of. The majority of the posts in this forum are made by people who have never actually driven one of the cars with the hesitation problem being discussed. For some reason however they have decided to take the posts of the people who do have a problem, and expand on them to the point of sometimes implying that it is a design flaw/safety issue that affects all similar vehicles, which it does not. There are many of us whose cars drive just fine.
There are however a few people here who describe a more serious problem with their vehicles that can not be completely attributed to the DBW system or a designed in delay. I say that because my car, and several others I know of which have the exact same drivetrain and DBW system, run just fine. So the problem affecting the cars with a more serious delay may or may not be directly connected to the DBW design.
You may wonder why the other posters, who have never actually experienced the specific hesitation discussed here, are so quick to tell you how bad it is. Draw your own conclusions.
'The majority of the posts in this forum are made by people who have never actually driven one of the cars with the hesitation problem being discussed.'
When I got my GS400 - the first DBW I had experienced - it became apparent that any tendency to 'floor it' just wouldn't be desirable or effective. Those 300 horses with five gaits would stumble if not treated with respect. I am inclined to believe - given the disparate views of people about the same transmission design - that much of it has to do with driver practice. There are many posts that indicate pretty clearly that the vehicle should do what they want it to, and they don't feel that any change in approach should be necessary. This is despite the fact that the vehicle is able to perform in ways and possesses power and efficiency that are quite different from the past. It may be that drivers who don't see the problem are those who tend to be gentler, and that their cars also would respond less effectively with a harsher foot on the accelerator.
From what I have read, it is a problem that appears to be unique to Toyota/Lexus models with 5 spd auto trannys and DBW. It doesn't seem to be occuring in other 21st century vehicles...
The problem is not limited to "flooring it" situations. You can read the TSB to get a better description, but driving on and off the accelerator such as in rush hour traffic is another instance when the hesitation occurs. For you, the other attributes outweigh the negatives of the hesitation problem and I am sure there are others who agree. But there are others who find the negatives associated with the hesitation problem outweigh what otherwise would be perfect or near perfect autos. To each his own.
Happy Thanksgiving if you are in the US. Those turkey tryptophans (sp?) are hitting me now, so, later.
the is no hidden agenda. i never claimed i drove a toyota, but i've owned one, an excellent reliable low-maintenance drive that lasted me 180K before i sold it. and it was working excellently when i did sell it, i just needed more room for a growing family.
what i'm trying to communicate, and i'm not being successful or convincing to you, is that a company can introduce a new technological artifact, and users can adapt to operation that collides with prior learning, but there is a cost - and the cost is greatest during periods where your brain is loaded for some reason, and actions are taking place at unconscious levels.
this is the way we as humans work. good designs support humans and the way they work. some artifacts are acceptable, and others are not. this behavior goes beyond simple "customer acceptance" and adaptation to same.
you'd see my point if you were more conscious of all the cause and effect experiences you have during the day. surely you take note when you attempt to effect some change in the environment, and yet the expected response happens late, or not at all. in those situations, your brain takes time reconciling the event. what would be the resulting actions you would take? would you repeat your input actions? would you apply more force or frequency in your actions? would you hesitate to take an action?
i'm suggesting that this particular artifact is a safety issue, and this is supported by many of the anecdotes posted. you don't believe that it is, but then, you don't have a car with a hesitation issue do you? do i have to have a vehicle with the problem to make this claim? and if you don't have this problem, does that make it appropriate to conclude it isn't a safety problem for others. that's what it ultimately comes down to right? maybe you need hard numbers on the people involved in accidents as a result of this particular artifact. do people have to be in an accident for it to be a safety issue?
it is interesting, this problem isn't being posted, as scoti1 has reminded us, in other manufacturer P+S forums. and you yourself confirm, the artifact isn't being experienced uniformly by all toyota owners of DBW designs.
one would expect if those with a hesitation problem were to bring their vehicles to their dealership (some have evidently done so multiple times), it would get fixed. you would expect and demand as much i'm quite positive, and i would too, even if i didn't own said vehicle.
As Billran advises, there are some things you should bear in mind. True, there are several individuals who post regularly here and don't drive one of these so-called affected vehicles. (I've often wondered why they don't get routinely criticized for having no business being here in the same manner as do we who do drive one but haven't experienced the problem???) At the same time there have also been those here who tell of significant delay under certain conditions, and evidently are looking for advice as to how to solve the issue. In the vast majority of cases, however, there is reference to experiences and concerns such as a "different feeling"; or an "erratic shift pattern". I believe it's fair to say this is where most concerns about this issue reside. Your comments about 21st century DBW technology and the driving public's unfamiliarity with it, certainly hold merit when examining cause and effect re this issue. Example: ABS braking systems. Over the past few years, we've seen many more vehicles coming into the market with this technology as standard equipment. In the initial phases of this developing trend, there were huge numbers of complaints re the "different feeling", of "no reduced braking distances" associated with ABS systems. People weren't familiar with how these systems were intended to work, be used, or what they were intended to do, and until they began to understand that they require getting used to, there was much controversy. There still is in some instances. I don't doubt that some who post here experience the more severe characteristics of this issue. However I do believe that the vast majority of concerns being experienced are in the "it's different" category. I also believe that type of characteristic is, as the manufacturer says, "the way it's supposed to work." I do not believe this more common characteristic being experienced is any kind of safety or driveability problem as implied by some individuals. I also believe this same characteristic is not difficult to adapt to as you have suggested in your post, any more or less than the "different" characteristics of ABS braking systems are. Understanding what it is, how it works, and adjusting to it is the right answer to those experiences. Furthermore, I strongly disagree with statements being made that similar concerns do not exist for other makes/models with DBW. There are many reports at Edmunds and elswhere where similar concerns are being expressed for a variety of other manufacturers using the same technology. This "different" characteristic is not exclusive to Toyota, and any suggestion otherwise is at best, misleading, and at worst, a lie. Lastly, you should be aware there have been some overly dramatic and embellished criticisms re this issue which I believe are detrimental to the credibility of those with genuine concerns. As Billran has said, use you own good judgement when participating in this discussion. Thank you for your common sense approach to the situation here.
When my 1992 LS400 tended to "hesitate" due to Trac having just previously and briefly activated, resulting in dethrottling the engine, I "adapted" by diligently remembering to turn Trac off immediately after I turned the ignition to "start".
Problem solved.
So I wonder....
There is some suspicion on my part that this engine/throttle is the result of the VSC/trac system. Especially so with those experiencing the symptom upon or on entering a tight or fast turn or combination of the two. I could readily see that an anti-rollover algorithm might restrict engine torque in this circumstance...
So.
First, EXTREME CAUTION IS ADVISED.
As a trial, only as a trial, pull the ABS pumpmotor fuse.
That should disable all VSC, Trac, BA, ABS, BTD, etc, functionality etc. so BEWARE.
These are highly important SAFETY functions so do not leave them disabled.
Remember that ABS is designed to prevent the wheels, especially the front, from coming to a full stop before the vehicle stops moving. To me it is quite conceivable that the Trac firmware has evolved to the point that it is serving that same purpose by alleviating engine compression braking, upshifting, on occasions when it appears that the roadbed might be slippery enough for that need.
That would certainly add enough randomness to the event.
This "different" characteristic is not exclusive to Toyota, and any suggestion otherwise is at best, misleading, and at worst, a lie.
I agree with you Pilot. And while I can understand an interest in this topic from anyone who drives a car, I am still baffled. Why would people who have never personally experienced the hesitation being discussed here consistently be the ones to 'lead the charge"?
When new posters enter they are almost always immediately responded to by the people who have no personal experience with these vehicles, yet they always post about how bad the hesitation is and how it is a safety issue. Why? I am not questioning the interest, but the desire to post about how badly the cars perform without any personal experience with the vehicles, good or bad. What exactly is the motivation there? It just doesn't make sense.
It would be like me going to the Ford Taurus forum (I have no experience with that vehicle), picking up on some of the complaints there, and then jumping on board and agreeing what a huge problem it is. Then greeting every new poster who has a similar problem and telling them about how it is a design and safety issue that no other cars have. Even if I had no personal experience to back it up. Why would I do that? A grudge against Ford? Just Like to stir the pot? I don't understand.
I think if a person doesn't own the car and/or has never experienced the problem (like me for instance) then yes, if they were to adamantly beat the drum that this was a serious defect and that Toyota is shamefully risking lives---yes, that would be a rather untenable and extreme position for anyone to take and they could legitimately be called to task for it. They should probably bow out of the forum.
If these non-owners were saying the problem doesn't exist at all, and is imaginary, that also doesn't seem like a very tenable or helpful position to take and they should bow out of this forum.
But if they (non-owners) are merely speculating on possible solutions/causes for real owners, that seems helpful, even if they don't own the car.
I believe you have covered all the possibilities. And I agree with you and understand the interest in this topic by anyone, even if they have never personally experienced the hesitation, as well as the desire to suggest possible causes/solutions. No argument there.
I also believe however that the first scenario you mentioned "if they were to adamantly beat the drum that this was a serious defect and that Toyota is shamefully risking lives" occurs in here as well. And I believe the fact that this is untrue is often compounded by the fact that it is sometimes recited by people who have never personally experienced the specific hesitation being discussed. For reasons that I have yet to comprehend.
Rather than rehash the past however, perhaps your guidance will make for a more rational forum in the future.
'There is some suspicion on my part that this engine/throttle is the result of the VSC/trac system. Especially so with those experiencing the symptom upon or on entering a tight or fast turn or combination of the two. I could readily see that an anti-rollover algorithm might restrict engine torque in this circumstance...'
My Canadian XLS has these options, yet I do not experience the severe hesitation problem recounted by some posters. (There can be hesitation if driver action is heavy and sudden on the pedal, but I find that this is largely predictable and avoidable.) In any case, your suggestion poses the possibility that non-optioned vehicles could have uniformly different responses from those with the added controls - something that it should be possible to compare without the potentially hazardous disabling process. Perhaps Consumers Union would do so...
'The hesitation problems have been reported by owners of Lexus ES330 models made between 2002 and 2004 the Toyota Camry and Highlander and other Toyota and upscale Lexus brand models equipped with the same five-speed automatics .
'A search of NHTSA records and interviews with Consumer Reports magazine also show owners of other car makes are suffering from the same hesitation problem, including BMW's 3 Series, Ford Explorers and Escapes, and Dodge Durango 4x4.
'David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center in Connecticut, said the magazine's testers have encountered the same problems in the Audi A6 2.7T, the Audi Allroad, the Mazda6 equipped with the V-6 engine, and the Volkswagen Jetta 1.8T.
Spokespersons for those companies could not be reached for comment.
'What makes the issue perplexing is that no two models of a given car brand may have the same problem. Some owners of the makes involved say they've noticed nothing, while others will say the problem is chronic. '
I frequently experience hesitation with my 2003 Corolla LE automatic since I purchased it new. It happens around the speed of 40 and 65 mph, and lasts about half an second. It feels like the car is being dragged by something during the hesitation.
Also, yesterday after driving the car with cruise control on 68 mph (with less than 3000 rpm) for a few miles, suddenly I heard the engine roaring with the RPM needle soaring above 4000 before I turned off the cruise control with horror. The symptom recurred a couple of minutes later after I turned on the cruise control again. The problem didn't come back the third time with cruise control on.
Wrong. If you read the posts of those affected by the hesitation, the most common complaint is in traffic or slow speeds where stop and go conditions very clearly confuse the drivetrain which in turn results in very annoying hesitation, searching for gears and the resulting jerkiness when the car finally decides to go. Forget about "stomping" on it. Personally, that's the least of my concerns.
Check out the home page on Edmunds. It discusses the 07 Camry and the "new 5-speed automatic transmission". Gee, why would they come out with a new transmission?
They may be saying the "new 5 speed automatic transmission" is going to be standard for the 2007 4 cylinder engine. I think it's currently only available as an option for the 4 cyl. engined Camry. I could be wrong, but that inference about the current 5 speed being redesigned doesn't quite wash. If it is, it may only be as a result of the "redesigned engine" also talked about in the article. In any event, it's sheer speculation to even suggest that it will be redesigned because of this hesitation issue. Statements to that effect tend to derail this discussion. I certainly hope that wasn't the intention.
gws, Thanks for the link. The article was originally posted in the Pittsburgh Post early this year. It does mention other makes, but I am not seeing owner complaints on message boards, including this forum. I would say that maybe we just expect more from Toyota, but one of the others mentioned in the article is a BMW, and if I put down the big bucks for a beamer, I would be griping even louder.
Another quote from the article:
"What makes the issue perplexing is that no two models of a given car brand may have the same problem. Some owners of the makes involved say they've noticed nothing, while others will say the problem is chronic. "
that article's comment w.r.t. other makes does support pilot130's assertion that it is an inherent artifact of the designs of DBW, their transmissions, and control architectures and strategies. yet not all makes and models with DBW implementations are yielding these complaints.
why not?
like you scoti1, i just don't see people raising the issue in other manufacturer P+S forums.
why might this be so?
i understand the argument posed by billran, that some of this is customer acceptance, yet for others it may be more significant and that something else may be contributing.
billran and pilot130 don't have hesitation in their vehicles. i for one, from the get-go have wondered why that is so. if it were all explainable by customer acceptance, that would be one thing. if it's driving style induced or mis-characterization by a computer program, that's another. if it's a part non-uniformity or communications/interrupt implementation, something completely different. there are a range of possibilities. who's to know with certainty? we know for example, people use the hesitation term in a few different contexts and senarios. one person's problem is not necessarily everyone's.
we can agree that toyota sells many more vehicles than the specific manufacturers cited in that article, and i believe, unlike other manufacturers, probably has been more technologically advanced and rolled this architecture out to more of their models than the others have. in many ways, we expect toyota to be pushing the envelope with respect to new methods to improve fuel economy, functionality and safety. ***i personally do***. this may account for the reports we see in the toyota model P+S forums vs. other forums.
i'd buy that line of reasoning completely.
i suspect i'm the one being labeled as the "drum beater" or one of them. if so - i accept it and consider myself duely labeled. some people are certain i have some hidden motivation to site a particular manufacturer (toyota in this case) and stir things up for some unstated purpose(s). this is simply rediculous.
my point has always been, no matter the manufacturer that introduces this artifact, if there is hesitation, it will impact safety. anyone needing a 3rd party to tell you that hesitation does or doesn't impact safety hasn't really thought about the problem, and really considered the anecdotes being reported.
some people are critical about the drivability and control of their vehicles, and for other's these attributes are less important than other factors. for me and others, any hesitation is more than an customer acceptance issue. however, i accept the fact that others do not believe this is true.
ultimately, it is everyone's responsibility to trust their own sense of judgement, and their seat of the pants experience before making a vehicle purchase.
unfortunately, the message i have for the readers of this forum is wrapped in the context of a discussion predominated by the anecdotes of owners of vehicles from one particular manufacturer - thus - there must be linkage of the message and the manufacturer which is intentional and purposeful.
to be criticized for being vigilant on the indroduction of complex systems and their resulting artifacts, some with important human factors consequences which we should all be more aware of and sensitive to... well, i accept that the message and the messanger should be open to this criticism, and i believe it's ultimately for the greater good.
but please, to believe or assert i have something against one particular manufacturer... that is simply untrue.
Scoti, you quoted a piece of that article: "What makes the issue perplexing is that no two models of a given car brand may have the same problem. Some owners of the makes involved say they've noticed nothing, while others will say the problem is chronic." We've certainly seen many examples of that phenomenon in these discussions. To my way of thinking, randomness such as described in the quote can just as easily be said to point to variations in driving technique, as opposed to mechanical issues, could it not? I would be interested in your thoughts on that.
For User777: Your sentiments resonated about you being dubbed as focussed exclusively on one manufacturer. I can assure you and other's expressed concerns about where my loyalties are. I feel the same as you. I have frequently been labelled as a "defender" or "shill" for Toyota by some, and it gets a little tiresome after a while. I understand how you might feel about "sensing" comments of that nature directed at you. In my case it happens right out in the open, there's been no "sensing" about those sentiments. I hold no allegiance to any one manufacturer, and do not participate in this or any other discussion for reasons of allegiance. I am no more or less partial to Toyota than any other make. Period.
by virtue of the predominant postings w.r.t. problems experienced with models from one manufacturer, you do seem to suffer the same linkage between this manufacturer, your particular position, and some hidden motivation.
that's true. i see it.
there's at least one or two subtle differences though, the first being, people like you and billran, you both happen to own one of the subject vehicles, and yet you don't have the problem. i think that fact causes people with the problem to question your motives and the sincerity with which you believe the reports of those posters.
the other subtle difference is that in defending your position, you do tend to downplay or otherwise question the reports provided by others with the problem, by the wording and tone of your posts. perhaps this is a consequence of you being a mediator. i think no one questions in the slightest the reports of you, billran and others that you have no problem, although i remember someone forwarded the notion that EVERYONE had a problem, but only some noticed it. perhaps they meant, their was a potential for everyone to have the problem. we didn't investigate that avenue much.
ok - so the tone and wording of my posts, comming on the heals of yours or billran's for example, it seems like we are engaged in a tete-a-tete, or point / counter-point. our host and others no doubt wish us and others to move beyond that, because it is doing none of the posters with the problem any good.
i agree, and i think i've indicated as much in prior posts, driving technique may play a role, a consequence no doubt of the classification system implemented by the toyota design.
however, if the hesitation were very slight to non-existent, we most suredly wouldn't have people reporting it as anything more than an acceptance issue, and some posters have indicated, if they could just turn this classification / learning system off - to have their transmission and ECU/TCM perform MORE like (we don't know to what degree) those that barely or don't notice any problem, i'm sure they would jump at that.
i think though, that we're dealing with something more than driving style and system classification of the driver. why for example, as the article states could a (lexus?) dealer representative drive several vehicles of the same model on his lot, presumably using the same style, and experience the hesitation in some, but not in others?
let's face it, the reasons for the range of reports should be investigated and understood.
It may be that the larger number of Toyota vehicles sold accounts for the proliferation of expressions of concern about hesitation. But a Googling of the topic makes clear that complaints are not uncommon. Here are just several...
Volkswagen owners have been reporting accelerator problems with their VW Touaregs. The complaints allege a throttle hesitation leading to a 1 - 3 second delayed acceleration. The problem occurs when the Touareg is slowing to a near stop at speeds of 10 mph or less. When the driver attempts to accelerate, the engine revs before the transmission engages and sends the car lurching forward. The consequences of this happening when pulling out into a busy intersection or trying to avoid another vehicle has the potential to be disastrous, leading some consumers to call it a "death lag". The problem affects the 2004 - 2005 VW Touareg with drive by wire/adaptive transmissions.
Note: I've herd a lot of complaints about hesitation on 3.5's. Mostly on all models. Drive by wire is in general newly introduced to the public. Alot of manufactures are having this complaint. Some manufactures have come out with a back up cable system to override the drive by wire, so when there's a hesitation the cable takes over your throttle control and gives you a more consistent throttle.
Today while driving my 2005 TSX, I was taking a left with on some on coming traffic , but I had time to make it. As soon as I hit the gas, nothing... then a less than a second later the engine responded. It scared the crap out of me! But I made it. Now the old fashion cable linkage would have reacted right away. This is isn't the first time I have expericence this delay... Has anyone else experienced this before in their TSX's? I would think this a major safety concern.
Thank you. You are indeed correct that hesitation complaints are found for many many vehicles. And I appreciate you taking the time to post a few of the links.
I would have to wonder if on those forums there are people who have never actually driven and personally experienced the hesitation, yet are responsible for the majority of the posts about the seriousness of the issue. As is the case here.
In any case I personally think it is a case of people seeing what they want to see.
Perhaps you're right in your analysis of why some feel like they do because of my comments. I won't dispute your rationale, except to say there's no excuse nor need for rude and mindless name calling because of it. You're correct in that it serves no purpose and helps no one.
Maybe a poor example, but my 2001 Porsche C4 is DBW and I have absolutely no complaints nor have anyone else I have talked to with DBW when coupled to a manual transmission.
So I really don't think the problem lies in the area of DBW design, but modification of that design to "protect" the drive train, automatic transaxles.
If the 'defect' doesn't manifest itself in 100% of the vehicles, or close to that, then you know you have variables affecting the issue rather than any one cause. If you all had dfective cars within a certain age or VIN # sequence, you could explain the low complaint rate that way, but since it seems to show itself over a number of years and models, the "bad batch" theory isn't going to work.
Wrong. Beginning with the 2005 model, the 5 -speed DBW is the only automatic transmission for the 4 cylinder Camry. Pilot, once again, if the current drivetrain configuration is so great, then why are they changing it in 2007?
wwest- you are absolutely correct as usual. I find it amusing that some posters are drawing us back into a debate as to whether this is a legitimate and substantiated "problem", but I guess it keeps things interesting.
gws, the toureg information one can obtain from following the links to get to a competitive forum (with a little effort) is very very similar to the information being reported by the posters here with toyota DBW systems. it will be helful for toureg owners comming here to follow that link to the toureg forums.
do you think it possible that the ECU/TCM DBW components for the toyotas and these VWs touregs with DBW might come from the same manufacturer with the same form of adaptive learning technology and programming to "save the transmission"?
unfortunately, i couldn't get the nissan link you provided to work. possibly the site server was down.
if i google the acura and hesitation (because the link you provided seemed to be an isolated report), i find a few additional reports from RL and TL models, but did not find them in much frequency.
notably, when the reports of posters mentioned safety, there was no debate on the issue.
I agree, a 5 speed DBW auto is currently available as an option for the 4 cyl Camry. I said that in my post. It is an option here in Canada. But that doesn't really matter much anyway. The link referred to 07 Camrys in Japan. The quote referred to in that link stated a "New 5 speed auto will be available along with a redesigned 4 cyl. engine." Nothing in link said anything about "why" there's a change in the tranny. In your post, you inferred that the change had something to do with the hesitation issue. In my post, I suggested there could be any number of reasons for the change. Truth be told, no one knows "why" they're making a change Any comment other than "We don't know" is pure speculation. That was my point. No hidden agenda. It's simply the truth of the matter. Next you offhandedly state it "looks like we're being drawn back into the old theory about no issue at all." (paraphrasing from your post #2293) I suggest to you that making wildly speculative inferences and offhanded "digs" thru others are much more effective techniques to derail this or any discussion. I say again: "I certainly hope that wasn't the intention." :confuse:
I gather you don't think much of it. I just felt the schematics illustrating how DBW works might be interesting for some of us lesser lights in the tekkie department! So much for trying to be helpful
Well, it's "interesting", all right. A charitable word, that. Unfortunately, these posts tend to give off much more heat than light.
I'm sure there's many reasons why people blindly defend Toyota and other manufacturers on this issue, without ever having experienced the problem themselves. You can be sure that there are more than a few posters in this (and other) forums who make their money doing business with automotive companies. Woe be unto those that try to get in the path of another's cashflow!
Those of us on the other end of the equation, who give our money to automotive manufacturers for their vehicles (i.e., their income), are known as Customers. And so, to defend the manufacturer, an old game is played. The old game of "blame the victim" becomes a case of "blame the Customer". It's happened to me, and to almost everyone I know, at some time or another. It's a pretty sorry response to a problem, in my opinion. Especially when the manufacturer has already acknowledged the problem.
Great link. Good reading for us all. Ease up, critics, that was good info.
But I understand wwest's response as well - the issue at hand didn't develop until DBW was implemented. These "fast electronics" will never be faster than a throttle cable. It can only ever hope to be be "as fast".
Now my hopes are pinned on Toyota's new platform, to be launched next month. It'll be used first on the '06 RAV4, and then for the new Camry. Not only a new platform, but likely new electronic controls for engine and trans as well. Should be only two more weeks or so until I can get a test drive. The VSC is said to be "improved".
From www.pressroom.toyota.com
"Like all SUVs in the Toyota lineup, RAV4 comes standard with the Star Safety System. The standard system includes vehicle stability control (VSC), Traction Control (TRAC), anti-lock brake system (ABS) with Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD) and Brake Assist (BA). The new RAV4 adds to the Star Safety System with the addition of all-new enhancements to VSC. This new system goes beyond conventional traction and stability controls that simply react to challenging conditions."
We can only speculate what more it will do, if it can do more than "simply react".
I think it's fair to say no one here is "blindly defending" Toyota or any other automaker. Remarks to that effect are unfair. My own reasons for participating here have nothing to do with allegiance to any automaker. Furthermore I don't presume to believe or suggest anyone here is being compensated by any car company, either Toyota or the Competition. When critics come on board here, each of us has two choices: we can either "deck 'em", or "outclass 'em". My advice would be to choose the latter. It's better for everyone.
Not only am I a bit disappointed in my 2006 Toyota Solara with its hesitation problems (see my previous post: 2102), but this message board was extremely disappointing. I am tired of the back-and-forth rhetoric that goes on here as to whether or not this is an actual problem -- it is, and I, the customer, would like a fix for it!
To the poster who asked if it continues with the 2006s -- it does, and Toyota still thinks it's my fault because of the way I drive. When I took it in for the first oil change, they did not have a fix for it...yet. Even they seem to think one is inevitable. How's that for it NOT being a problem?
So my question at this point is: has anyone heard of a fix for Toyota's newest hesitation problem? I'm taking it in for an oil change this week and will ask again about it. I'll probably get the same answer about it being the way I drive and having to "retrain the tranny", which is done... HOW??? :confuse:
Anyone who hasn't ever experienced the problem, is "blind" the the experience. Anyone in that category, who submits posts that deny the seriousness of the problem, is "flying blind". Hence, the "blindly defending" quote. Not unfair at all.
Comments that refer to tactics like "deck 'em" are not very classy - and those that actually practice that tactic are too numerous already.
I never suggested that anyone is being directly compensated by anyone for writing posts. It is a fact that there are people posting here that derive some (if not all)of their income from selling goods and services to automakers, and others that sell automaker's vehicles.
At least Pilot 130 has openly stated, in post 546, that he and others in his family do make money by dealing with automakers. He is to commended for his openness in this regard.
"At least Pilot 130 has openly stated, in post 546, that he and others in his family do make money by dealing with automakers. He is to commended for his openness in this regard."
Absolutely correct. Family business is Radix Controls (http://www.RadixControls.com). Toyota isn't a customer---yet!! Workin' on it though!! Also have others, such as Kraft Foods, Cadbury Chocolates, John Deere, Integram Seating, Seagram(Diageo), Kawasaki, and a host of other non automotive clients. it's a highly diversified business. Our Specialities involve Specialized software development and integration, Robotics, Vision systems, and such. So much for the commercial. BUT---what does who we do business with have anything to do with this discussion anyway?? AND--why was it even mentioned?? I'll wager many posters here and in other topics are directly or indirectly involved with automotive manufacturing, automotive service, aftermarket, etc. It's the largest industry segment in North America.
Semantics, is thy name ekotrklvr?? Your refenced post 546 was my answer to one of your posts--Number 543. I suggest you go back and read that one.
The information at the link that pilot provided is an absolutely excellent tutorial. And believe me, an electronically implemented pedal/throttle link can be substantially "quicker" and with lower maintenance costs.
A few cases in point.
My 2000 GS300 wanted to surge, seriously, at initial throttle "tip-in". Turned out the cable from the gas pedal to the throttle had excessive backlash which I adjusted out. While that didn't fully solve my problem it did make it much easier to have a "feel" for when the throttle was actually opening.
Almost every spring, it seems like, I must re-adjust the extra long throttle cable on my (rear engined) 78 911 Targa.
So, DBW, implemented strictly to replace the mechanical connection, is a stellar idea. But then modifying that damn good idea to "prevent damage to the drive train" (or "damage to the airframe" in the case of Airbus.) raises a lot more issues than simply implementing DBW.
But keep in mind that for the manufacturers this is also a matter of economics. Even my 1992 LS400, equipped with Trac, must have a way to electronically dethrottle the engine. That is also true of almost all modern day FWD vehicles with fairly high torque/HP engines and VSC and/or Trac implemented. As a matter of fact I'm not sure you can find, these days, a high torque/HP FWD vehicle without some form of traction control.
My 1992 LS400 has a stepper motor servo just downstream of the throttle valve I control directly with the gas pedal that dethrottles the engine if Trac activates.
So today with DBW the VSC/Trac, anti-rollover firmware, or whatever, can "tell" the DBW firmware not to follow the footfeed. No more duplication of "effort".
Comments
I need to cut across 3 lanes of traffic...
I punch it, and the car goes...
I see another car coming up faster than I thought, so I let off the accelerator (stay in my lane)....
car slows down to let me over, so I punch it again....
nothing .... nothing... nothing...
Other car speeds up, thinking I'm not going to get over...
THEN my car accelerates.
I never left my lane until I built up some speed, but I can see how this car would be accident prone.
It would be interesting to see rates of accidents statistics year over year for this model, that's all I'm saying.
The RAV4, at the very bottom of the SUV food chain, now has rear biased AWD/4WD. I suspect that very soon all manufacturers will be looking for some way to alleviate or reduce the effects of engine compression braking on the front wheels.
Personally I would have chosen some "indicator" to let the driver know that "best" or better MPG can be obtained by upshifting but not actually upshift until the driver somehow acknowledges or some set time period has expired.
Our 88 911 has a light in the instrument panel which illuminates to indicate that an upshift is a "good" idea. But the driver can chose to ignore the indication and often does.
I wish you wouldn't let that be your reason for not posting here. I would hazard a guess that most of us here sympathize with you and benefit from your experience, especially what you went through with arbitration and hopefully from what you are going through with the lemon lawyers. I hope you won't let the periodic negativity chase you away.
I replaced a Lexus GS400 this summer with a 2005 Avalon. Both models do not respond well to having their accelerators 'punched' - but both have more than adequate acceleration for any planned manouevre. A gentle touch with progessive pressure produces good results in both these 5-speed automatics, V-8 and V-6 alike. Drive-by-wire designs may respond more satisfyingly for those of us who learned with direct linkage if we adjust our approach - recognizing that we are achieving well over 20 mpg for our trouble... compared with my 428 Mercury that yielded 12-15.
the problem is when you are not consciously planning manuvers, and you do so without thinking about all of them: your brain depending upon lots of learning acquired over many years of driving and other causal events.
Relying on old habits in 21st Century traffic while operating computer-laden vehicles may not work well. I guess the question is whether we adapt, or cling to patterns that served us well in the past.
One thing you should be aware of. The majority of the posts in this forum are made by people who have never actually driven one of the cars with the hesitation problem being discussed. For some reason however they have decided to take the posts of the people who do have a problem, and expand on them to the point of sometimes implying that it is a design flaw/safety issue that affects all similar vehicles, which it does not. There are many of us whose cars drive just fine.
There are however a few people here who describe a more serious problem with their vehicles that can not be completely attributed to the DBW system or a designed in delay. I say that because my car, and several others I know of which have the exact same drivetrain and DBW system, run just fine. So the problem affecting the cars with a more serious delay may or may not be directly connected to the DBW design.
You may wonder why the other posters, who have never actually experienced the specific hesitation discussed here, are so quick to tell you how bad it is. Draw your own conclusions.
When I got my GS400 - the first DBW I had experienced - it became apparent that any tendency to 'floor it' just wouldn't be desirable or effective. Those 300 horses with five gaits would stumble if not treated with respect. I am inclined to believe - given the disparate views of people about the same transmission design - that much of it has to do with driver practice. There are many posts that indicate pretty clearly that the vehicle should do what they want it to, and they don't feel that any change in approach should be necessary. This is despite the fact that the vehicle is able to perform in ways and possesses power and efficiency that are quite different from the past. It may be that drivers who don't see the problem are those who tend to be gentler, and that their cars also would respond less effectively with a harsher foot on the accelerator.
Happy Thanksgiving if you are in the US. Those turkey tryptophans (sp?) are hitting me now, so, later.
what i'm trying to communicate, and i'm not being successful or convincing to you, is that a company can introduce a new technological artifact, and users can adapt to operation that collides with prior learning, but there is a cost - and the cost is greatest during periods where your brain is loaded for some reason, and actions are taking place at unconscious levels.
this is the way we as humans work. good designs support humans and the way they work. some artifacts are acceptable, and others are not. this behavior goes beyond simple "customer acceptance" and adaptation to same.
you'd see my point if you were more conscious of all the cause and effect experiences you have during the day. surely you take note when you attempt to effect some change in the environment, and yet the expected response happens late, or not at all. in those situations, your brain takes time reconciling the event. what would be the resulting actions you would take? would you repeat your input actions? would you apply more force or frequency in your actions? would you hesitate to take an action?
i'm suggesting that this particular artifact is a safety issue, and this is supported by many of the anecdotes posted. you don't believe that it is, but then, you don't have a car with a hesitation issue do you? do i have to have a vehicle with the problem to make this claim? and if you don't have this problem, does that make it appropriate to conclude it isn't a safety problem for others. that's what it ultimately comes down to right? maybe you need hard numbers on the people involved in accidents as a result of this particular artifact. do people have to be in an accident for it to be a safety issue?
it is interesting, this problem isn't being posted, as scoti1 has reminded us, in other manufacturer P+S forums. and you yourself confirm, the artifact isn't being experienced uniformly by all toyota owners of DBW designs.
one would expect if those with a hesitation problem were to bring their vehicles to their dealership (some have evidently done so multiple times), it would get fixed. you would expect and demand as much i'm quite positive, and i would too, even if i didn't own said vehicle.
True, there are several individuals who post regularly here and don't drive one of these so-called affected vehicles. (I've often wondered why they don't get routinely criticized for having no business being here in the same manner as do we who do drive one but haven't experienced the problem???)
At the same time there have also been those here who tell of significant delay under certain conditions, and evidently are looking for advice as to how to solve the issue.
In the vast majority of cases, however, there is reference to experiences and concerns such as a "different feeling"; or an "erratic shift pattern".
I believe it's fair to say this is where most concerns about this issue reside.
Your comments about 21st century DBW technology and the driving public's unfamiliarity with it, certainly hold merit when examining cause and effect re this issue.
Example: ABS braking systems.
Over the past few years, we've seen many more vehicles coming into the market with this technology as standard equipment.
In the initial phases of this developing trend, there were huge numbers of complaints re the "different feeling", of "no reduced braking distances" associated with ABS systems.
People weren't familiar with how these systems were intended to work, be used, or what they were intended to do, and until they began to understand that they require getting used to, there was much controversy. There still is in some instances.
I don't doubt that some who post here experience the more severe characteristics of this issue.
However I do believe that the vast majority of concerns being experienced are in the "it's different" category.
I also believe that type of characteristic is, as the manufacturer says, "the way it's supposed to work."
I do not believe this more common characteristic being experienced is any kind of safety or driveability problem as implied by some individuals.
I also believe this same characteristic is not difficult to adapt to as you have suggested in your post, any more or less than the "different" characteristics of ABS braking systems are.
Understanding what it is, how it works, and adjusting to it is the right answer to those experiences.
Furthermore, I strongly disagree with statements being made that similar concerns do not exist for other makes/models with DBW.
There are many reports at Edmunds and elswhere where similar concerns are being expressed for a variety of other manufacturers using the same technology.
This "different" characteristic is not exclusive to Toyota, and any suggestion otherwise is at best, misleading, and at worst, a lie.
Lastly, you should be aware there have been some overly dramatic and embellished criticisms re this issue which I believe are detrimental to the credibility of those with genuine concerns.
As Billran has said, use you own good judgement when participating in this discussion.
Thank you for your common sense approach to the situation here.
Problem solved.
So I wonder....
There is some suspicion on my part that this engine/throttle is the result of the VSC/trac system. Especially so with those experiencing the symptom upon or on entering a tight or fast turn or combination of the two. I could readily see that an anti-rollover algorithm might restrict engine torque in this circumstance...
So.
First, EXTREME CAUTION IS ADVISED.
As a trial, only as a trial, pull the ABS pumpmotor fuse.
That should disable all VSC, Trac, BA, ABS, BTD, etc, functionality etc. so BEWARE.
These are highly important SAFETY functions so do not leave them disabled.
Remember that ABS is designed to prevent the wheels, especially the front, from coming to a full stop before the vehicle stops moving. To me it is quite conceivable that the Trac firmware has evolved to the point that it is serving that same purpose by alleviating engine compression braking, upshifting, on occasions when it appears that the roadbed might be slippery enough for that need.
That would certainly add enough randomness to the event.
I agree with you Pilot. And while I can understand an interest in this topic from anyone who drives a car, I am still baffled. Why would people who have never personally experienced the hesitation being discussed here consistently be the ones to 'lead the charge"?
When new posters enter they are almost always immediately responded to by the people who have no personal experience with these vehicles, yet they always post about how bad the hesitation is and how it is a safety issue. Why? I am not questioning the interest, but the desire to post about how badly the cars perform without any personal experience with the vehicles, good or bad. What exactly is the motivation there? It just doesn't make sense.
It would be like me going to the Ford Taurus forum (I have no experience with that vehicle), picking up on some of the complaints there, and then jumping on board and agreeing what a huge problem it is. Then greeting every new poster who has a similar problem and telling them about how it is a design and safety issue that no other cars have. Even if I had no personal experience to back it up. Why would I do that? A grudge against Ford? Just Like to stir the pot? I don't understand.
If these non-owners were saying the problem doesn't exist at all, and is imaginary, that also doesn't seem like a very tenable or helpful position to take and they should bow out of this forum.
But if they (non-owners) are merely speculating on possible solutions/causes for real owners, that seems helpful, even if they don't own the car.
I believe you have covered all the possibilities. And I agree with you and understand the interest in this topic by anyone, even if they have never personally experienced the hesitation, as well as the desire to suggest possible causes/solutions. No argument there.
I also believe however that the first scenario you mentioned "if they were to adamantly beat the drum that this was a serious defect and that Toyota is shamefully risking lives" occurs in here as well. And I believe the fact that this is untrue is often compounded by the fact that it is sometimes recited by people who have never personally experienced the specific hesitation being discussed. For reasons that I have yet to comprehend.
Rather than rehash the past however, perhaps your guidance will make for a more rational forum in the future.
thanks
My Canadian XLS has these options, yet I do not experience the severe hesitation problem recounted by some posters. (There can be hesitation if driver action is heavy and sudden on the pedal, but I find that this is largely predictable and avoidable.)
In any case, your suggestion poses the possibility that non-optioned vehicles could have uniformly different responses from those with the added controls - something that it should be possible to compare without the potentially hazardous disabling process. Perhaps Consumers Union would do so...
The reports of problems are not limited to Toyota, as shown by this excerpt from the American International Automobile Dealers website..
http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=32627
'The hesitation problems have been reported by owners of Lexus ES330 models made between 2002 and 2004 the Toyota Camry and Highlander and other Toyota and upscale Lexus brand models equipped with the same five-speed automatics .
'A search of NHTSA records and interviews with Consumer Reports magazine also show owners of other car makes are suffering from the same hesitation problem, including BMW's 3 Series, Ford Explorers and Escapes, and Dodge Durango 4x4.
'David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center in Connecticut, said the magazine's testers have encountered the same problems in the Audi A6 2.7T, the Audi Allroad, the Mazda6 equipped with the V-6 engine, and the Volkswagen Jetta 1.8T.
Spokespersons for those companies could not be reached for comment.
'What makes the issue perplexing is that no two models of a given car brand may have the same problem. Some owners of the makes involved say they've noticed nothing, while others will say the problem is chronic. '
For reference to Infiniti G35 and Chevrolet,see also...
http://forums.autoweek.com/thread.jspa?forumID=16&threadID=22729&messageID=528443
And if my ABS goes out, I should change my approach in how I brake?
Or if my reverse dies, I should change my approach in how I park?
Maybe if I had paid $500 for a beater, but not on a brand new $20K auto, thank you very much.
This is despite the fact that the vehicle is able to perform in ways and possesses power and efficiency that are quite different from the past.
Minus the hesitation, it's not very different from my 1999 V6 Camry.
Also, yesterday after driving the car with cruise control on 68 mph (with less than 3000 rpm) for a few miles, suddenly I heard the engine roaring with the RPM needle soaring above 4000 before I turned off the cruise control with horror. The symptom recurred a couple of minutes later after I turned on the cruise control again. The problem didn't come back the third time with cruise control on.
Any thoughts?
I think it's currently only available as an option for the 4 cyl. engined Camry.
I could be wrong, but that inference about the current 5 speed being redesigned doesn't quite wash.
If it is, it may only be as a result of the "redesigned engine" also talked about in the article.
In any event, it's sheer speculation to even suggest that it will be redesigned because of this hesitation issue.
Statements to that effect tend to derail this discussion.
I certainly hope that wasn't the intention.
Another quote from the article:
"What makes the issue perplexing is that no two models of a given car brand may have the same problem. Some owners of the makes involved say they've noticed nothing, while others will say the problem is chronic. "
why not?
like you scoti1, i just don't see people raising the issue in other manufacturer P+S forums.
why might this be so?
i understand the argument posed by billran, that some of this is customer acceptance, yet for others it may be more significant and that something else may be contributing.
billran and pilot130 don't have hesitation in their vehicles. i for one, from the get-go have wondered why that is so. if it were all explainable by customer acceptance, that would be one thing. if it's driving style induced or mis-characterization by a computer program, that's another. if it's a part non-uniformity or communications/interrupt implementation, something completely different. there are a range of possibilities. who's to know with certainty? we know for example, people use the hesitation term in a few different contexts and senarios. one person's problem is not necessarily everyone's.
we can agree that toyota sells many more vehicles than the specific manufacturers cited in that article, and i believe, unlike other manufacturers, probably has been more technologically advanced and rolled this architecture out to more of their models than the others have. in many ways, we expect toyota to be pushing the envelope with respect to new methods to improve fuel economy, functionality and safety. ***i personally do***. this may account for the reports we see in the toyota model P+S forums vs. other forums.
i'd buy that line of reasoning completely.
i suspect i'm the one being labeled as the "drum beater" or one of them. if so - i accept it and consider myself duely labeled. some people are certain i have some hidden motivation to site a particular manufacturer (toyota in this case) and stir things up for some unstated purpose(s). this is simply rediculous.
my point has always been, no matter the manufacturer that introduces this artifact, if there is hesitation, it will impact safety. anyone needing a 3rd party to tell you that hesitation does or doesn't impact safety hasn't really thought about the problem, and really considered the anecdotes being reported.
some people are critical about the drivability and control of their vehicles, and for other's these attributes are less important than other factors. for me and others, any hesitation is more than an customer acceptance issue. however, i accept the fact that others do not believe this is true.
ultimately, it is everyone's responsibility to trust their own sense of judgement, and their seat of the pants experience before making a vehicle purchase.
unfortunately, the message i have for the readers of this forum is wrapped in the context of a discussion predominated by the anecdotes of owners of vehicles from one particular manufacturer - thus - there must be linkage of the message and the manufacturer which is intentional and purposeful.
to be criticized for being vigilant on the indroduction of complex systems and their resulting artifacts, some with important human factors consequences which we should all be more aware of and sensitive to... well, i accept that the message and the messanger should be open to this criticism, and i believe it's ultimately for the greater good.
but please, to believe or assert i have something against one particular manufacturer... that is simply untrue.
We've certainly seen many examples of that phenomenon in these discussions.
To my way of thinking, randomness such as described in the quote can just as easily be said to point to variations in driving technique, as opposed to mechanical issues, could it not?
I would be interested in your thoughts on that.
For User777: Your sentiments resonated about you being dubbed as focussed exclusively on one manufacturer.
I can assure you and other's expressed concerns about where my loyalties are. I feel the same as you.
I have frequently been labelled as a "defender" or "shill" for Toyota by some, and it gets a little tiresome after a while.
I understand how you might feel about "sensing" comments of that nature directed at you.
In my case it happens right out in the open, there's been no "sensing" about those sentiments.
I hold no allegiance to any one manufacturer, and do not participate in this or any other discussion for reasons of allegiance.
I am no more or less partial to Toyota than any other make. Period.
that's true. i see it.
there's at least one or two subtle differences though, the first being, people like you and billran, you both happen to own one of the subject vehicles, and yet you don't have the problem. i think that fact causes people with the problem to question your motives and the sincerity with which you believe the reports of those posters.
the other subtle difference is that in defending your position, you do tend to downplay or otherwise question the reports provided by others with the problem, by the wording and tone of your posts. perhaps this is a consequence of you being a mediator. i think no one questions in the slightest the reports of you, billran and others that you have no problem, although i remember someone forwarded the notion that EVERYONE had a problem, but only some noticed it. perhaps they meant, their was a potential for everyone to have the problem. we didn't investigate that avenue much.
ok - so the tone and wording of my posts, comming on the heals of yours or billran's for example, it seems like we are engaged in a tete-a-tete, or point / counter-point. our host and others no doubt wish us and others to move beyond that, because it is doing none of the posters with the problem any good.
i agree, and i think i've indicated as much in prior posts, driving technique may play a role, a consequence no doubt of the classification system implemented by the toyota design.
however, if the hesitation were very slight to non-existent, we most suredly wouldn't have people reporting it as anything more than an acceptance issue, and some posters have indicated, if they could just turn this classification / learning system off - to have their transmission and ECU/TCM perform MORE like (we don't know to what degree) those that barely or don't notice any problem, i'm sure they would jump at that.
i think though, that we're dealing with something more than driving style and system classification of the driver. why for example, as the article states could a (lexus?) dealer representative drive several vehicles of the same model on his lot, presumably using the same style, and experience the hesitation in some, but not in others?
let's face it, the reasons for the range of reports should be investigated and understood.
From... http://www.volkswagenlemonlaw.com/touareg-hesitation.htm
Volkswagen owners have been reporting accelerator problems with their VW Touaregs. The complaints allege a throttle hesitation leading to a 1 - 3 second delayed acceleration. The problem occurs when the Touareg is slowing to a near stop at speeds of 10 mph or less. When the driver attempts to accelerate, the engine revs before the transmission engages and sends the car lurching forward. The consequences of this happening when pulling out into a busy intersection or trying to avoid another vehicle has the potential to be disastrous, leading some consumers to call it a "death lag". The problem affects the 2004 - 2005 VW Touareg with drive by wire/adaptive transmissions.
From... http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?t=19525
Note: I've herd a lot of complaints about hesitation on 3.5's. Mostly on all models. Drive by wire is in general newly introduced to the public. Alot of manufactures are having this complaint. Some manufactures have come out with a back up cable system to override the drive by wire, so when there's a hesitation the cable takes over your throttle control and gives you a more consistent throttle.
From... http://www.acuraworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=979276#post979276
Today while driving my 2005 TSX, I was taking a left with on some on coming traffic , but I had time to make it. As soon as I hit the gas, nothing... then a less than a second later the engine responded. It scared the crap out of me! But I made it. Now the old fashion cable linkage would have reacted right away. This is isn't the first time I have expericence this delay... Has anyone else experienced this before in their TSX's? I would think this a major safety concern.
Thank you. You are indeed correct that hesitation complaints are found for many many vehicles. And I appreciate you taking the time to post a few of the links.
I would have to wonder if on those forums there are people who have never actually driven and personally experienced the hesitation, yet are responsible for the majority of the posts about the seriousness of the issue. As is the case here.
In any case I personally think it is a case of people seeing what they want to see.
You're correct in that it serves no purpose and helps no one.
So I really don't think the problem lies in the area of DBW design, but modification of that design to "protect" the drive train, automatic transaxles.
do you think it possible that the ECU/TCM DBW components for the toyotas and these VWs touregs with DBW might come from the same manufacturer with the same form of adaptive learning technology and programming to "save the transmission"?
unfortunately, i couldn't get the nissan link you provided to work. possibly the site server was down.
if i google the acura and hesitation (because the link you provided seemed to be an isolated report), i find a few additional reports from RL and TL models, but did not find them in much frequency.
notably, when the reports of posters mentioned safety, there was no debate on the issue.
I said that in my post. It is an option here in Canada.
But that doesn't really matter much anyway. The link referred to 07 Camrys in Japan.
The quote referred to in that link stated a "New 5 speed auto will be available along with a redesigned 4 cyl. engine."
Nothing in link said anything about "why" there's a change in the tranny.
In your post, you inferred that the change had something to do with the hesitation issue.
In my post, I suggested there could be any number of reasons for the change.
Truth be told, no one knows "why" they're making a change
Any comment other than "We don't know" is pure speculation.
That was my point.
No hidden agenda. It's simply the truth of the matter.
Next you offhandedly state it "looks like we're being drawn back into the old theory about no issue at all." (paraphrasing from your post #2293)
I suggest to you that making wildly speculative inferences and offhanded "digs" thru others are much more effective techniques to derail this or any discussion.
I say again: "I certainly hope that wasn't the intention." :confuse:
http://www.picotech.com/auto/applications/electronic_throttle_control.html
"* Eliminating the mechanical element of a throttle cable and substituting it with fast responding electronics,...."
Good, even GREAT theory!
I just felt the schematics illustrating how DBW works might be interesting for some of us lesser lights in the tekkie department!
So much for trying to be helpful
I'm sure there's many reasons why people blindly defend Toyota and other manufacturers on this issue, without ever having experienced the problem themselves. You can be sure that there are more than a few posters in this (and other) forums who make their money doing business with automotive companies. Woe be unto those that try to get in the path of another's cashflow!
Those of us on the other end of the equation, who give our money to automotive manufacturers for their vehicles (i.e., their income), are known as Customers. And so, to defend the manufacturer, an old game is played. The old game of "blame the victim" becomes a case of "blame the Customer". It's happened to me, and to almost everyone I know, at some time or another. It's a pretty sorry response to a problem, in my opinion. Especially when the manufacturer has already acknowledged the problem.
But I understand wwest's response as well - the issue at hand didn't develop until DBW was implemented. These "fast electronics" will never be faster than a throttle cable. It can only ever hope to be be "as fast".
Now my hopes are pinned on Toyota's new platform, to be launched next month. It'll be used first on the '06 RAV4, and then for the new Camry. Not only a new platform, but likely new electronic controls for engine and trans as well. Should be only two more weeks or so until I can get a test drive. The VSC is said to be "improved".
From www.pressroom.toyota.com
"Like all SUVs in the Toyota lineup, RAV4 comes standard with the Star Safety System. The standard system includes vehicle stability control (VSC), Traction Control (TRAC), anti-lock brake system (ABS) with Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD) and Brake Assist (BA). The new RAV4 adds to the Star Safety System with the addition of all-new enhancements to VSC. This new system goes beyond conventional traction and stability controls that simply react to challenging conditions."
We can only speculate what more it will do, if it can do more than "simply react".
Remarks to that effect are unfair.
My own reasons for participating here have nothing to do with allegiance to any automaker.
Furthermore I don't presume to believe or suggest anyone here is being compensated by any car company, either Toyota or the Competition.
When critics come on board here, each of us has two choices: we can either "deck 'em", or "outclass 'em".
My advice would be to choose the latter.
It's better for everyone.
To Wwest: Is this link of any interest??
http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html
http://wardsautoelectronics.com/chassis_suspension/x_by_wire/xbywire_power_marks/
To the poster who asked if it continues with the 2006s -- it does, and Toyota still thinks it's my fault because of the way I drive. When I took it in for the first oil change, they did not have a fix for it...yet. Even they seem to think one is inevitable. How's that for it NOT being a problem?
So my question at this point is: has anyone heard of a fix for Toyota's newest hesitation problem? I'm taking it in for an oil change this week and will ask again about it. I'll probably get the same answer about it being the way I drive and having to "retrain the tranny", which is done... HOW??? :confuse:
Comments that refer to tactics like "deck 'em" are not very classy - and those that actually practice that tactic are too numerous already.
I never suggested that anyone is being directly compensated by anyone for writing posts. It is a fact that there are people posting here that derive some (if not all)of their income from selling goods and services to automakers, and others that sell automaker's vehicles.
At least Pilot 130 has openly stated, in post 546, that he and others in his family do make money by dealing with automakers. He is to commended for his openness in this regard.
Absolutely correct. Family business is Radix Controls (http://www.RadixControls.com).
Toyota isn't a customer---yet!! Workin' on it though!!
Also have others, such as Kraft Foods, Cadbury Chocolates, John Deere, Integram Seating, Seagram(Diageo), Kawasaki, and a host of other non automotive clients. it's a highly diversified business.
Our Specialities involve Specialized software development and integration, Robotics, Vision systems, and such.
So much for the commercial.
BUT---what does who we do business with have anything to do with this discussion anyway??
AND--why was it even mentioned??
I'll wager many posters here and in other topics are directly or indirectly involved with automotive manufacturing, automotive service, aftermarket, etc. It's the largest industry segment in North America.
Semantics, is thy name ekotrklvr??
Your refenced post 546 was my answer to one of your posts--Number 543. I suggest you go back and read that one.
A few cases in point.
My 2000 GS300 wanted to surge, seriously, at initial throttle "tip-in". Turned out the cable from the gas pedal to the throttle had excessive backlash which I adjusted out. While that didn't fully solve my problem it did make it much easier to have a "feel" for when the throttle was actually opening.
Almost every spring, it seems like, I must re-adjust the extra long throttle cable on my (rear engined) 78 911 Targa.
So, DBW, implemented strictly to replace the mechanical connection, is a stellar idea. But then modifying that damn good idea to "prevent damage to the drive train" (or "damage to the airframe" in the case of Airbus.) raises a lot more issues than simply implementing DBW.
But keep in mind that for the manufacturers this is also a matter of economics. Even my 1992 LS400, equipped with Trac, must have a way to electronically dethrottle the engine. That is also true of almost all modern day FWD vehicles with fairly high torque/HP engines and VSC and/or Trac implemented. As a matter of fact I'm not sure you can find, these days, a high torque/HP FWD vehicle without some form of traction control.
My 1992 LS400 has a stepper motor servo just downstream of the throttle valve I control directly with the gas pedal that dethrottles the engine if Trac activates.
So today with DBW the VSC/Trac, anti-rollover firmware, or whatever, can "tell" the DBW firmware not to follow the footfeed. No more duplication of "effort".