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Comments
"The point is that it looks like more corporate welfare to me." "The tax payers subsidizing the automakers. "
Now that the worm is turned and it is diesel cars offered the incentives, has your opinion changed? Now that the diesels are getting the tax credits, all of a sudden the EPA numbers are super duper important to you?
The Jetta tested 29/40 on the EPA test. VW got the same result, and therefore was forced to hire an outside service to run a "real world" test.
That the EPA test is biased against diesels is completely your invention. The test includes hwy speeds of up to 80 miles per hour which appear to be a diesel strength. The test also includes air conditioning, which you have ALWAYS SAID does NOT affect miles per gallon in a diesel car.
The Prius testing at 60 MPG was not erroneous. The car achieved it. The EPA did not and has not ever violated federal law by lying about any car tests. You have evidence that shows otherwise?
I don't have any pro guvmint propaganda to post. Just because I trust the EPA to follow federal law does not mean I am pro-guvmint.
The EPA did not and has not ever violated federal law by lying about any car tests.
That is because they make the laws and change them to fit the situation.
The EPA just "caretakes" that law in regard to mileage testing.
The law:
Federal law requires auto manufacturers to determine the fuel economy of new vehicles offered for sale in the U.S. This information is provided on a fuel economy label affixed to each new vehicle’s window. The labels may vary somewhat in appearance, but they all provide the same information.
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Who holds the records for MPG? VW TDI. Maybe we should sponsor a cross country matchup between a Prius and Jetta TDI. The ML320 CDI already beat the RX400h in just such a matchup. You like a Prius buy one. Just don't come around here spreading your anti diesel drivel. You have not posted one positive thing about diesel cars since you came onto this site. Don't expect to be welcomed with open arms by people that have more experience with diesel cars than yourself. This is not a diesel vs hybrid thread. Those all got shut down because people came in making rude remarks about the intelligence of others. Very similar to many comments you have made. I would suggest you learn civility that is a requirement here at Edmund's.
As far as MPG, we have an HBO-documented Prius getting 109.1 mpg on one tankful of gas. It was 1,397 miles on 12.8 gallons. Hypermilers in Japan have even surpassed that.
Granted, it was not a cross-country run, but that type of driving is not where a hybrid will shine, and it IS the type of driving (low rpm at high speeds) where a TDI WILL shine.
So if you want to say it properly so that new people seeing this won't be confused:
VW TDI has the "Highway" record and the Prius has the "City" record.
P.S. Just for the sake of dreaming - I wonder if the Golf TDI Hybrid that they have talked about will ever really hit the road. A car like that could conceivably get a TRUE 70 MPG in the US.
And, I will tell you again since it seams that you do not read behind the words, that people write; I drove diesel before you’re born, I did repair on old and new diesel engine, I like its torque, I do not like its performance 0 to 60 mph, I like the efficiency of the engine, I do not like the maintenance associate with long term ownership. So be happy, and calm down.
You are an old dude. I guess I owe you an apology. Anyone 85 and still able to post is alright by me.
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"We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel. !!! ??
The heart of the Fiesta ECOnetic is Ford’s 1.6-liter four-cylinder TDCi turbodiesel engine, which is rated in the U.K. at the equivalent of U.S. 51 mpg in the city, 74 mpg on the highway and 64 mpg on the combined European driving cycle. The 89-hp engine also emits an ultra-low 98g/km of CO2.
If you think diesels are slow, noisy, and smelly, or that they're only for trucks, trains, and ships, think again. Or better yet, wake up and join the 21st century.
Volkswagen's 2009 Jetta TDI, available now, is the first clean-diesel vehicle to be offered in all 50 states. To underscore that, VW introduced it to the automotive press in Santa Monica, Calif., with a drive route that included the Pacific Coast Highway, some of SoCal's finest canyon roads, and even a little freeway driving.
As Norbert Krause, director of VW's Environmental Engineering Office, put it so aptly in his part of the morning presentation, "this is not your grandfather's diesel." I got into one of the few stick shift examples in the morning, and twisted the key. No clatter, no smoke, very little noise. A little diesel sound from outside, but luxury car quiet from inside the cabin. An auspicious beginning.
Jetta TDI review 2
We've said it before: There is no automotive silver bullet that saves money, reduces environmental impact, and gets us off foreign oil all in one shot. At least not at the moment, given the current state of technology, infrastructure, government statutes, and business case realities. But Volkswagen has chambered a round that moves the game forward by a fair amount. VW has sold diesels on and off in the U.S. market since 1977. All were good, most were slow, and they suffered from the old maladies that have been associated with diesels for decades.
Forget all that.
The Jetta TDI Clean Diesel sedan and wagon are here, featuring cutting-edge technology, substantially better mileage than a gasoline engine, and affordable pricing. The company estimates that about 25% of Jetta sedan sales will be TDIs, perhaps a bit more for the SportWagen. And...drum roll...it will be offered in all 50 states and meet the same emissions requirements as do gasoline-fueled cars. Everyone wants to know the numbers, so here they are.
Driving Euro diesels from Audi, BMW, Chrysler, and Mini
More than half the cars sold in Europe are high-mpg diesels. So given the opportunity to sample four models directly from the Continent, we hoped to find out if modern European diesels are good enough to entice American drivers.
Small-displacement engines with big torque and fuel economy numbers have long been considered forbidden fruit to the U.S. market. With the revised, ultra-low-sulfur fuel recently adopted in the States, we are seeing a slow influx of European diesel models reach our shores. Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen have lead this wave of new diesels, and several other automakers have announced plans to bring more here.
So, what do we have to look forward to? We got a taste last week by attending the annual International Motor Press Association (IMPA) track days at Pocono Raceway, where we piloted several imported diesel models provided by Bosch. We sampled four European-market diesel models: 2009 Audi A4 3.0 TDI Quattro, 2007 BMW 123d hatchback, 2007 Chrysler 300D, and 2008 Mini Cooper D. (Bosch supplies some of the fuel injection and emissions control equipment for these cars that allow them to meet stringent air quality standards in Europe. They say the cars could also be made 50-state compliant in the U.S.)
In our review of the Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec diesel last year, we raved that its modern diesel engine was not only clean, but also felt as smooth and powerful as a gasoline engine.
In driving the four European cars at IMPA, it is clear that modern diesels are much smoother and quieter than those engines Americans may remember from the 1980s. But not all are as refined as gas engines, or as that E320.
I was very impressed with the Audi A4 3.0 TDI. This A4 has 236 hp and a whopping 369 lb-ft of torque, giving it impressive acceleration. The car was also quiet, relaxed, and refined in driving on the street. It’s rated at a combined 36 mpg on the European fuel economy test cycle. And several of us came away from a lap around the road course wearing wide smiles.
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Why should we accept a claim without providing data?
This data is available in detailed spreadsheets:
59,827 miles on my 2001 Prius averaged 45.4 MPG
104,584 miles on my 2004 Prius averaged 48.0 MPG
.
There is such thing as a "cross-country mileage record" and these folks are on pace to shatter it. They also have the OLD record, which is 51.8 MPG. At last report they were around 59.42 on their trip so far.
TDI on pace to shatter current world record.
****
Here in L.A., though - just over a hundred miles away, Diesel is all over the place.
http://www.losangelesgasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D
Low is $3.69, high is $4.79. The stations are the ones that are gouging from the looks of it. I'm leaving that one specific station in Calabasas out, since they are way outside the norm across the board.(60 cents higher than anything within 50 miles!)
Gas is $3.49 to $4.09. Diesel has a much wider range, despite there only being a true 20 cent difference in price(note the 20 cent difference as well in San Diego). The rest is... gouging by the retailers. Not the oil companies.
Averaging 844 miles per tank
Day Sixteen
INSTANT UPDATE: 7,366 miles driven to date / Costing US$ 512.96
It's the last weekend of the summer and this morning we could feel the change in the air as we headed out of Wichita Kansas. Once more we were graced with the presence of an amazing sunrise.
On the road we had a chat with Sam Memmolo for 'Sam's Garage', live radio segment.
We stopped at Petticoat Junction for some 'Cowboy Coffee', then continued towards Shell Lenexa Kansas, our next refuelling location.
Greeted by a very helpful young man Winston Edmiston, we proceeded to follow all the Guinness World Record procedures. On filling the tank with Shell Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel we were both ecstatic with the result of 60.80 US MPG. Yeay!!!
So they are at 60.80 MPG as of Day Sixteen. As Borat would say, "NNNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICCCEEE!"
TOKYO (Reuters) - Nissan Motor Co on Thursday became the first domestic automaker to launch a diesel car in Japan in six years, blazing the trail for rivals looking to revive the fuel-saving engine to cut greenhouse gas emissions.
The X-Trail 20GT sport utility vehicle, powered by an engine lead-developed by partner Renault SA, is also the world's first "clean" diesel car to meet Japan's new emissions standards to kick in from October 2009, said to be the strictest in the world.
Diesel cars make up more than half of the European market, but a powerful smear campaign by Tokyo's popular governor in the late 1990s deriding them as smelly, noisy and polluting has all but erased the fuel-efficient cars from Japanese roads.
Nissan was the standout among major automakers in U.S. auto sales data released on Wednesday, surprising investors with a 13.6 percent increase in August sales.
The only other diesel car available in Japan now is Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz E320 CDI sedan, launched in late 2006. While the company says reception has exceeded its expectations, a sticker price of over 8 million yen ($73,510) has kept sales volumes here at a paltry 100 units a month.
Volkswagen AG, Japan's top-selling foreign brand, is also preparing to offer a diesel car in Japan next year.
Other domestic automakers, including Honda Motor Co, Mitsubishi Motors Corp and Subaru-maker Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd, will be joining Nissan in the segment over the next few years. But conspicuously absent from that list is market leader Toyota Motor Corp, without which proliferation may be difficult.
Toyota, which has 45 percent of the local car market, offers a range of diesel cars to compete in Europe but has preferred to promote hybrid technology, pulling the plug on the last remaining diesel car in Japan, the Land Cruiser Prado, in July 2007.
The Japanese government is also keen on diesel cars and is considering offering consumer incentives from next April, for models that meet the new, tighter emissions standards.
With the stricter regulations in place, diesel cars would be almost as clean as comparable gasoline vehicles, with the added benefit of cheaper fuel.
http://www.enn.com/business/article/38092
Japan 2009 matches Euro VI (2014), but is not as strict as California (Tier2Bin5). Anyone designing for EuroIV will be able to sell in Japan, but not in the 50 States (without additional investment).
OEM's get on the road to susses and start offering all your small and mid sized Suvs and pick ups with a 2.5 L diesel at 200 HP and 30 + MPG and watch sales take off.
Why can't you get it ? We want good MPG with utility leave the RV'ers and contractors with with 7 to 14 MPG and let the rest of us try to survive the Wall street and oil debacle.
I say good for them. I wish all 50 states adopted CARB standards. It would make for cleaner air for everyone instead of just the lucky few.
Tier2Bin5 'better' than EuroVI? No, just different. Bin5 is more stringent on NOx, less stringent on PM. The differences are enough to keep most of the clean diesels out of the US. See graph in post 6717. I grew up in the Appalachians in the 70s when cars were operating in the biggest box in that graph, and NOx / acid rain was destroying lakes and trees where I lived. The differences between bin5 and EuroVI are insignificant compared to what we had back then. The US should adopt Euro emissions at the same time Europe does so we can benefit from the 40% reduced fuel consumption that diesels offer.
Connecticut, D.C., Delaware, Maine, Maryland, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Texas.
Suffice to say the rules and regulations keep the the passenger diesel population low.
Tier2Bin5 'better' than EuroVI? No, just different. Bin5 is more stringent on NOx, less stringent on PM. The differences are enough to keep most of the clean diesels out of the US. See graph in post 6717. I grew up in the Appalachians in the 70s when cars were operating in the biggest box in that graph, and NOx / acid rain was destroying lakes and trees where I lived. The differences between bin5 and EuroVI are insignificant compared to what we had back then. The US should adopt Euro emissions at the same time Europe does so we can benefit from the 40% reduced fuel consumption that diesels offer.
Good accurate data here.
However from a business model perspective it doesn't make much sense to invest in new clean diesel technology at this time today.
40% is about the maximum fuel economy benefit that can be expected by driving a diesel over a gasser. However...
..there is a 5-15% premium in the cost of production and sales price of the vehicle;
..there is a 5-15% loss of efficiency due to the emissions controls as you noted;
..there is a 10-20% premium to pay for the fuel.
In the best case scenario that 40% fuel economy benefit is reduced to 20% but in the worst case there is a 10% penalty for buying, driving, fueling a diesel over a gasser. It appears to be at best breakeven at this time. Improving the existing gasser technology seems the less expensive/less risky route for the automakers in NA.
So why are we even making noise about less fuel consumption and less foreign oil dependency when most folks subscribe to the attitude you have outlined? :lemon:
I'd be the first to day that 38-42 mpg on a Honda Civic gasser is probably better than 80-98% of the vehicle fleet . But at the same time 48-52 mpg on a TDI ain't bad for a "fuel guzzler"
You will probably agree: the key is we are not REALLY serious about less fuel consumption and less foreign oil dependency! :lemon:
Now that you brought up hybrids that IS a route that vehicle makers can take in NA to both save fuel, reduce dependency on foreign oil and make a profit. The new Honda Insight @$18000-$19000 will be a smashing success in this regard IMO. The Gen 3 Prius will gain 50% more sales annually than the Gen 2. The midsized auto segment is about to explode with offerings from GM, Ford and Hyundai along with the Toyotas and Nissans now being offered
Profits can be made here...and fuel saved.
What goes into the price of Gasoline vs the price of Diesel
.............................Gas............. Diesel
Taxes.................... 11% ............ 11%
Dist & Marketing.... 10% ............ 14%
Refining................... 6% ............ 11%
Crude Oil............... 73% ............ 64%
Minimizing costs is one important perspective for the buyer (but not the only perspective, as ruking points out). I'll agree with the 5-15% initial cost premium, while noting that the resale value / lease rate resulting from higher resale / longevity of the vehicle more than offset the initial cost. My current diesel powered vehicle is at 240,000 miles and still has considerable resale value. If I had the gasser equivalent, I'd have sold the first one at zero value and 200,000 miles, and be on my second one by now... The worst thing manufacturers of diesels could to would be to diminish the proven durability of the engine. Also in this category, the EPA is rewarding efficient lean-burn technology with a tax credit, which applies to 50-state compliant vehicles, first 60,000 of each model sold from now through CY2010. This helps offset the purchase price. Almost completely for the VW Jetta.
Regarding emission controls, I think that 0-5% is a more realistic penalty. Urea/scr does add to initial cost, but the advantage is it does not affect efficiency. NOx converters are hands-off for the customer, but use fuel as a catalyzer.
There is no doubt now a 5-20% premium for the fuel, which bothers me to no end, having enjoyed lower than RUG prices for so many years. I can't say if this trend will change because I don't believe all of the explanations of why the price is what it is. I believe enough of the explanations to think that diesel will now sit somewhat higher than gasoline.
So, I think 'typical' case, is that the initial investment premium is recovered, and operating costs are 15-20% reduced. When I see the industries that survive by moving product and people from point A to point B switch from diesel (or diesel hybrid) to anything else, I'll know that the cost of ownership of the diesel is no longer superior.
Other non-financial benefits of diesels are a reduction in volume of fuel used of 35-40% (energy independence), a less volatile fuel (better well-to-tank emissions, no evap hardware required), a better bio-fuel alternative (biodiesel vs. diesel is superior to ethanol vs. gas), and a fuel that can be synthesized from many sources (algae, fungi, wood gassification, garbage gassification, etc.)
Personally, I'm looking ahead to diesel-hydraulic series hybrids. If we go nuclear and beef up and put redundancy in our electrical grid, then I'll get excited about electric vehicles as well.
Diesel is only 24 cents per gallon more expensive than regular unleaded gas !!!!
( Did the Anti-Diesel Lobby get demolished by Ike? )
GM, Ford and Toyota have made it clear in this regard.
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If you calling GM, Ford and Toyota the 'anti-diesel, pro-hybrid' crowd the rest of the world would be mightily surprised since these are likely three of the largest diesel manufacturers in the world.
Now on this continent, I might agree. But it's only because of what their marketing says about sales and profits and what the local market will purchase, nothing more or less. They've determinied that the local market here will not buy diesel vehicles except as a niche product. Not in large volumes. These three are large volume producers.