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Comments
This is MONSTER, almost beyond MONSTER !
As a comparison, the 200 mph Corvette has 472 # ft of torque !!??? 505 hp vs 493 hp is almost trivial to contrast.
In light of your next post, the contrast can almost be seen as elitist. Sort of like celebrating the new powerful Ferrari's, while applauding the constriction of Toyota,Honda Corolla's Civics etc etc.
by Mike Magrath, Vehicle Testing Assistant 10/08/2008
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Most likely they are not "preaching". (to folks like me)
..."Among them are a leather-wrapped steering wheel, iPod-friendly aux input, an in-dash six-disc CD changer and a 10-speaker audio system. That TDI designation also means the Jetta in question is equipped with a turbocharged 2.0-liter 16-valve DOHC inline-4 fueled by ultralow-sulfur diesel.
Making 140 horsepower is one thing. Making 263 pound-feet of torque at only 1,750 rpm is something else. And mixing these figures into a sedan body weighing 3,364 pounds and cranking out an EPA rating of 29 mpg city/40 mpg highway is something fantastic."...
I personally can do without the options quoted in the first sentence. I would not want to pay for them, when given the choice. Indeed the car has gotten 414 #'s heavier.
Given their MPG, they might have skipped over how I manage to get 44-62 mpg.
..."Current Odometer: 1,427
Best Fuel Economy: 34.7 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 26.7 mpg
Average Fuel Economy (over the life of the vehicle): 31.3 mpg"... :lemon: :shades:
Not too sure - the Edmunds long-term 2004 Prius has a tank of 44 MPG on this trip:
Prius results
Can't seem to find their "Prius cumulative MPG" figure anywhere - still looking.
My take in driving BOTH cars is it the VW Jetta TDI takes the "flogging" far better, and is categorically more fun to drive than the Prius. As a consequence one would tend to flog the TDI more frequently and longer :lemon:
But then again the tests are usually geared to the so called "average driver, etc etc.
I'd say judging a Prius getting 32 MPG on a race track is sort of choosing the "wrong reality" wouldn't you?
Anyone racing Priuses these days? Nascar? F1? Indy car? Naw, didn't think so.
You were incorrect when you said the Prius being driven like the Jetta would get nowhere near 45 MPG. You were wrong - it got 44 MPG.
Show me a long-term Prius on ANYONE'S website getting 32 MPG "long term."
I'm sure the Jetta TDI will come up from the current 31.7 MPG in the "long term" but I just wanted to point that out in light of Gary whining so much about the "low" EPA test results. This result AGAIN just indicates that there was no "silliness" at the EPA in regard to cheating the TDI.
Looks like Edmunds in 1400 miles of "real world driving" hasn't even hit the low EPA numbers yet. That's all I was pointing out.
You remember that LAST WEEK I pointed out the new world record the Jetta TDI just set?
That's because with ME, you don't get "just one side of the story" but the WHOLE TRUFE !!!
No, I think your juxapositions of contexts, are incorrect. While you would be tempted to say the Prius WAS driven like the Jetta and vice versa, NOTHING in the methodology /ies suggests that either was driven with that in mind. Indeed, my original post stated it was a SWAG. AND the reason for the SWAG was the lack of definition of the methodology.
A bunch of Edmunds editors driving like normal drivers.
While it does sometimes seem it takes you awhile to understand what I am saying, you do say it, even as you say, somebody else is wrong,: you do not agree, when you in fact do agree.
So be that as it may, being as how the majority of "test drivers" aka "normal" drivers who drive 99% gassers, it gets back to the original point, that they are driving it precisely WRONG.
Again while I think you know this, (I have for a very long time) ANY Prius driver will tell you you have to drive the Prius differently to maximize fuel economy. So it goes for the TDI. Indeed, Civic drivers will tell you the same about Civics. So if a reasonable goal would be to get the best possible mpg under so called similar circumstances (plain Jane commute for example) it will pay to operate each under its own optimum parameters.
So for example on www.tdi.com, folks who have driven diesels before and coincidently folks who have never driven diesels before are reporting UP to 50 mpg from the 2009 Jetta TDI. I fully swag I can get 50 mpg with no problems. The exciting thing is that for me that would be 90 hp/155 # ft of torque to 140 hp/236# ft of torque!!!! 56% more hp/52% greater # ft of torque!!! I would definitely like those apples! :shades:
..."driving them to their strength, i.e. low-down torque/forget the redline change-ups also helps considerably."...
You bring up another good point, that is probably hidden in plain sight and that is when you drive a diesel @ the stated RPM, where full torque is on line/available, (what ever one wishes to call it) the better the fuel mileage (you just vary the speed and or gears to keep it @ 1750 rpms). (The Edmunds.com article posted lists full torque 236 # ft (sic- my correction) @ 1750 rpms ( they list a deslexic 263 (typo) # ft of torque) .
On the 2003 VW TDI if I did 1750 rpms on say a long highway drive, I swag I would be posting EASILY 65 mpg. Of course the speed would be app 53 mph!!!
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This diesel car burns up oily fuel a drop at a time, making the Jetta one of the best and most efficient vehicles available in America
Just slightly kidding, but the newspaper you posted that from is decidedly "anti-hybrid" and of course has a genuine marketing requirement to favor American cars and thus also anything competing against the rival Japanese brands.
The Jetta TDI is indeed a great car from all indications. But it's nothing revolutionary.
Get me a diesel hybrid that seats five and gets 70 miles per gallon and you will certainly get far more people's attention.
Or make a Volt which uses diesel generator instead of a gas version.
This I learned in high school physics and have been applying it ever since (40 years in powertrain design).
If you want to convince youself, recall that you can get 500 lb-ft of torque from a 5 HP Briggs lawnmower engine by gearing it appropriately. Now would you really want that engine to power your next LeMans entry???
All that aside, diesels will struggle in this country due to price of diesel fuel and the expense of the new emissions systems. The math just isn't there.
For highway driving the torque at low RPMs makes for a much better experience. I have had both. I will take the diesel engine any day over the gasser. I will never buy another new gas engine vehicle. You may like to hear the scream of a gas 4 banger trying to pull a long uphill grade. I don't.
Diesel is near gas price in San Diego today. Went by a station that was only 10 cent difference. Diesel close to me is down to $3.19 per gallon. Gas dropped to $3.09 yesterday.
So I take it you are addicted to cheap coffee, when you go out?
Further you power train guys have not gotten it right (in 30-40 years) when it comes to 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, etc # ft of torque. The only real good so called "automatic" transmission diesel is on the MB 320/350 !! Current "best" diesel transmissions are 5/6/7 speed manuals.
As for your 5 hp Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine, lets just say your grass is getting HIGH.
As for the math on the diesels, we just disagree on what math benefits whom. I have already mentioned more than once the passenger diesel fleet has gone from less than 3% to 2% (drop of app 33.3%) In addition, the cost per mile driven on like model diesels vs gassers is on the side of diesels. Perhaps that is the real reason why more oems do not want to make like modeled diesels in the US market. The good/bad news is one has: VW.
So again if you missed the past post, 49/50 mpg vs 29/30 mpg on 03 model VW Jetta's. :shades: The premium for the diesel engine(over the 1.8T) @ that time was app $246.
So @ current corner store prices: RUG $3.69/30 mpg=.123 cents per mile driven , D2 $3.59/50mpg =.0718 cents per miles driven. Your math indicates that "BETTER" than:= .123 cents is cheaper than .0718 cents per mile driven!!!? Might be an small indicator why we are going through the current economic problems.
Sure, if I am government or a vendor, They want YOU to pay MORE ( .123 cents) per mile driven rather than LESS ( .0718) per mile driven. or 71% MORE!!! We already know that 98% of the passenger fleet already do, albeit with (GREATER) pain and suffering. :lemon:
As a consumer... well... do what math is of comfort to YOU.
Just slightly kidding, but the newspaper you posted that from is decidedly "anti-hybrid" and of course has a genuine marketing requirement to favor American cars and thus also anything competing against the rival Japanese brands.
Having just researched your claim by reading reviews by Scott B. I found no substantiation to your claim. Reviews of the TC, Fit and Avalon show no hate toward Japanese cars.
But I've been reading articles from that paper since 2004 and I know there is an anti-Japanese bias and I understand why it is there - they are "DETROIT", DUH. I even wrote them a letter to the editor once about it.
Nothing I said in my post meant anything in regard to the Jetta article in particular other than that he did "diss" the hybrids a little bit in the article.
I was just pointing out "you gotta judge the source" before putting stock in SOME of the statements in the review.
Overall, it was a solid review of a fine automobile.
"...a genuine marketing requirement to favor American cars and thus also anything competing against the rival Japanese brands."
Therefore the promoting of the Jetta TDI is a direct hit against hybrids in the minds of the DetNews.
And it's not "logic" it's just research and following the obvious.
Direct comparisons can be difficult but not impossible. Here in Europe we get the VW Tuareg, (SUV similar to Mercedes ML class), in a variety of engine options from 2.5TDi through 3.6 Gasser to 5.0 TDi. Nearest comparisons are :
3.6 Auto Gasser = 276bhp/266lbft/8.7secs to 62mph/20.5mpg
3.0 Auto TDi = 222bhp/369lbft/9.9secs/25.9mpg
MPG figures are EU "Combined" cycle in all cases.
Pardon me if I opt to sacrifice the 0-62 time in favour of 25% better economy and a more relaxed drive. Just for illustrative purposes, the figures for the big diesel Tuareg are :
5.0 Auto V10 TDi : 345bhp/627lbft/6.7secs/22.4mpg
Why would anyone even consider the 3.6 Gasser ? Great performand AND better economy from the big TDi. They don't do a big Gasser version for the reason that no-one would buy one, (they leave that area to Porsche with the Cayenne).
Just my two-cents,(Euro, of course), worth.
Indeed I have read an article highlighting a Corvette Z06 test engineer, whose sole job (or so the article said) was to make sure test mule Z06's meet or exceed the current du jour ZERO to 60/62 ratings! (@ the articles' penning 0-60= 4 seconds) This must be a GEAR HEADS' dream fantasy job!! The real upshot is the vehicle is built to spec for 100 each 0-60 mph full launches. Anything after that and predictably; things deteriorate to break down, with thre resultant HUGE repair costs. The bad news is almost all the other cars keep the number of full launches better than a state secret.
Of course if one is a drag racer it merely serves as a start off point for what massive modifications one wants/ needs to do to keep the stealth, yet be able to race on the streets. Clearly this is dangerous and is currently against the law. My take is only a minority of folks actually do this. Indeed when you get it on the legal DRAG strip, all is revealed and it is in effect handicapped (like in golf)
Why is pro Detroit, pro german? To boot the Jetta's are made in so called 3rd world countries!? (03 is made in Mexico) Your basic premise ( hafl serious half kidding anti Japanese oem shot) was flawed or not demonstrated. Your attempts at explaining your flawed position are illogical at best. Just say opps and chalk one up in the opps column and move on. GEEZ guy!?
I take it you like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic!
You'd give Captain Ahab a run for his rum.
Fully agree about the 0-60 dash times. Dynosaurial, (is that even a word ?), and utterly pointless in the real on-road world. Just gives childish bragging-rights down the pub and I know folks who get excited about a 0.2 sec difference. Top Gear do tend to foster this boyish foolishness.
I would much rather see 40-70mph or 50-80 or whatever as a more realistic, and representative, measure of real worth. Autocar do an annual 0-100-0mph series of tests and, whilst very entertaining and a good guide to ultimate stopping ability, they do not relate to the way that "Joe Public" ever drives, (well, not the survivors anyway).
As for the way such figures are achieved, by whom and mechanical survivability, it's not something the manufacturers like to talk about. Indeed, I have seen on other Fora about reported drivetrain failures, (and Warranty problems), on Nissan GT-R's whose owners have, (allegedly), switched off all the control functions, engaged "Launch Control" once too often and, (again, allegedly), ended up with very expensive repairs. But that, as they say, is a whole different boiling water container of scaley aquatic gill-breathers.
Gotta go - time for tea.
My "analysis" is neither illogical nor circular.
DetNews favors American cars and ALSO favors anything competing against the rival Japanese brands, and CERTAINLY would favor something challenging the hybrids for mileage supremacy.
What's so hard to comprehend about that fact?
I am eagerly anticipating the arrival of my new X5 diesel from BMW. I could care less who rates it. If I like it I will buy it. If not I am stuck with this gas hog Toyota.
Look, I've said my piece on this and made my point. If you missed it, you missed it. Sorry about that.
It is not difficult to comprehend your point. You do not like diesels. In a attempt to discredit Scott Burgess and support your anti-diesel, pro-hybrid agenda you falsely labeled Scott Burgess as anti-Japanese.
Clean Diesel
Good PR.
Wrong. I have posted MANY MANY articles and stories on clean diesel vehicles. And I defended the Jetta TDI against a resident hybrid-lover recently and I posted the stories and the blog of the couple who set the "cross-country" Jetta TDI world record. To say that about me is mis-characterizing me completely.
The correct wording would be "larsb does not like DIRTY diesels but he does indeed like CLEAN diesels."
moparbad says, "falsely labeled Scott Burgess as anti-Japanese."
Wrong again. You are on a roll, but the wrong kind.
I correctly pointed out the DetNews newspaper has a pro-American bias which is true and that leads to the fact that they also have an anti-Japanese bias which they cannot outwardly admit.
But they make their money selling newspapers to Detroit-based AMERICAN CAR LOVERS so what else could they do?
RUG: 3.69 per gal
PUG: 3.99
D2: 3.59
Time to take a car vacation, I hear that Lost Wages is offering 50% and better off for rooms. This is way interesting as this is so called PEAK season.
The places I usually fill in Las Vegas are indicating 3.47 to 3.53 per gal of D2.
Sure wish I had a Japanese diesel , aka 2010 Nissan Maxima cDi.
Easy mistake. We're rather mixed up here in UKland. We buy our fuel in Litres but quote economy in MPG, (with L/100km alongside but no-ne talks about L/100km). Engine power outputs may be quoted in either BHP or PS depending upon manufacturer, or kw if you're really unlucky. Torque is either lbft or Nm on same basis. Tyre sizes are metric, (mm), for width and imperial for wheel diameter, e,g, 225/45/17, (the middle number is aspect ratio, of course). Vehicle weights and dimensions are always metric. Road distances are in miles but local councils may use metres for local short distance signs, e.g. xxxx in 300m. Speed limits are always in MPH but our speedometers are usually marked in MPH and km/h.............but not always.
The word "Quaint" comes to mind. :confuse:
Positve review of VW Jetta, Honda Fit, Toyota Avalon, Scion TC, and BMW M3 demonstrate that you have completely mis-characterized Scott Burgess.
Perhaps you have even mis-characterized yourself.
Source of Diesel Info.
The newspaper is the issue, not the author.
His own comment doesn't even support that: "Look folks, here's a car that can get real world mileage in the 40s."
My 2004 Prius (at 106,058 miles) has a lifetime average... real world mileage ...of 48.0 MPG. And the new upcoming model will improve that.
How can it not be competition?
While it might not sound like it, this is VERY good news for diesel. ! Even more so in light of the stock prices of Ford ,GM, Chyrsler and sales hits to Toyota/Honda (market/niche leaders) etc.
In the worst case they can switch to all (gasser) to gasser/diesel combinations to of course 100% diesel. .
These plants are VERY expensive to start up and to maintain. So I would swag VW expects to do a LOT of volume (aka per year app 200,000 units to UP)
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Change your Urea OR ELSE !!!
Mercedes expects to refill the urea tank in its diesel vehicles when customers return to the dealership every 10,000 miles for regularly scheduled maintenance. If customers fail to do so and the tank isn't refilled, the driver could be stranded.
Mercedes warns the driver with an instrument panel light if the tank falls below one gallon of fluid. If the urea level gets "critically low," a counter will appear on the dashboard saying 20 restarts remain.
"It will count down, and if you ignore all those warnings, then it won't start," said Dan Barile, a Mercedes-Benz USA spokesman.