I hope my previous post...wasn't seen by anyone as a conspiracy theory, but rather a reality check.
Nope, not unless you posted it from the obscured side of a grassy knoll.
IMO (notice that doesn't include "humble"), the informed consumer uses more than a single resource to determine the best price and shopping strategy that works best, personally, for him or her. If you rely on one point of data, whether it be TMV or a ludicrous/realistic/ADM price posted in the pricing discussions, you're really limiting your strategy and locking into a one-price-fits-all mentality. If it were that simple, everyone would pay the same price in the same place at the same time of day... the One True Price™, and we know that that's not the case.
If you've got a few minutes of time when your employer isn't looking over your shoulder (don't want anyone to get sacked), you might peruse our explanation on how TMV is calculated: More About TMV.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
We check TMV on a regular basis....most of the number we check have been 'do-able'. I can only recall one vehicle where the numbers were way off base. I looked at every possible angle and couldnt find a way to sell the vehicle without losing $1200-1500. TMV was just plain wrong and fictitious for this vehicle. We even had consumers who shopped the numbers all over and got laughed out of every showroom in the region....other than that one vehicle I havent had any big problems with TMV.
Im starting to wonder about edmunds as well. Today I looked at two cars. Both I offered $500 over Edmunds and the dealerships were like blow off, my offers were way to low.
I'm not really an advocate of an Edmunds conspiracy that intentionally shows a high TMV. It's just that since it seems to favor the dealer, it's being questioned. I know that the TMV is an average but it's not close enough. There is something wrong that should be fixed. Circumstantial evidence does convict !!
Edmunds has spoiled all of us with accurate information, now we want everything. If we didn't think highly of Edmunds, we would be spending our time somewhere else.
Maybe somebody in your house can look into this.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
While I'm impressed with both the volume AND variety of conspiracy theories,
What theories? Its a know fact that aliens that crashed in Roswell are now running car dealerships funneling profits to Elvis who is secretly in charge of the luminati who are trying to control the world through fluoridation in our water supply. Now Edmunds jacks up the TMV so the aliens can make more profit to fund things like black helicopters.
:P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In the fall of 2002 I began shopping for a new car. I settled on a new Audi A4 Avant 3.0. TMV for the car I bought was always MSRP. When I emailed the salesman with whom I took my test drives and asked for a price, he came back with about $1500 under sticker for a factory order cash deal. There is only one Audi franchise in my immediate vicinity with the next closest being more than 80 miles away. Since no one in his right mind pays over sticker for an Audi, I cannot accept the assertion that TMV is an average. Unlike others here my negotiating skills are not the stuff of legend. So,Edmunds, TMV, advertising, grain of salt all go together for me.
Since no one in his right mind pays over sticker for an Audi, I cannot accept the assertion that TMV is an average.
I think you'd be surprised. For one, some buyers aren't very clever, and will pay sticker, and possibly even an ADM-based price, for a wide variety of reasons.
For another, there are a lot of buyers who really don't know what they paid. That's often because they made their purchase based upon a monthly payment, rather than on a price, so they have little if any idea of what the car actually cost. For them, car prices vary between $350-400 per month, not based upon the price, and those buyers are very likely to have paid top dollar and then some for their cars.
Im starting to wonder about edmunds as well. Today I looked at two cars. Both I offered $500 over Edmunds and the dealerships were like blow off, my offers were way to low.
What was the car? I would submit that TMV falls down on very popular cars, where dealers can be adding a lot of markup to the price and still get away with it.
Sure, the raw data comes in, but if there's a low, there has to be a high, and popular cars, especially in a less-competitive market, are going to skew your average.
We check TMV on a regular basis....most of the number we check have been 'do-able'.... and ....other than that one vehicle I havent had any big problems with TMV.
Since you're in the biz and you don't have a problem with the TMV I think that you are helping me to make my point.
Any time that a dealer is willing to give a buyer a published price by some independent third party it must be good for him and not the best that the buyer can do.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Of COURSE it's not the best you can do!! Average is a "C." Unless you're talking about mathematics, it's not even the best I can do.
And ccompson has a point... this includes all of the deals in which negative equity was rolled into the cost of the new vehicle. But it also includes some great deals by exceptionally good (or lucky) bargainers.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Yeah that would put TOOO much information in the consumers hands. I think that there are still hidden incentives on new cars that we as consumers NEVER see or even hear about.
I had some access to after auction prices because a friend had a dealer license about 2 years ago (should have bought a car then, not now, lol). It is sick what dealerships pay at those auctions for cars, we are talking low low prices way below what Edmunds lists as asking prices for cars.
The problem is that dealerships have been so used to people who have little to no access to information that they have become accustom to charging ridiculous prices and making huge profits. So if someone comes in and offers a do-able price (that being edmunds) the dealership has to decide at that point if they are willing to do the deal or keep the car on the lot and screw someone down the road.
And customers are funny...they will wave these in my face and in their other hand, they are waving another printout showing the highest possible trade in value for their old car they could find on the internet!
Isn't that essentially what dealerships do? They want to give customers rock bottom for their cars then want to charge the absolute highest price they can on the car they are selling???
If you've got a few minutes of time when your employer isn't looking over your shoulder (don't want anyone to get sacked), you might peruse our explanation on how TMV is calculated
I don't have much doubt that Edmunds attempts to calculate TMV accurately, but can anyone tell us how you obtain the sales data? Is it from state filings, dealership reporting, Polk, all of the above, or something else?
To: kirstie and others who have responded to post #2027 (you know, the one that started this whole discussion/debate)
I think we have gone in circles at least two times already on this subject. We all know that the TMV is an average price and as kirstie said, this is a letter grade of "C". Most of us don't want to be average, I know I don't. In fact, average didn't even get you into the field I was in which is probably the case for most of you also. Isn't that why we have an issue with the TMV ?
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH !!
Thanks,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I think that if the goal is to uncover that Magic Price that everyone will accept, you won't find it. One point I've tried to make throughout this thread is that the price you get is based in large part on you.
Each dealer has a range of prices that are acceptable, but (a) not all dealers will be in the same place, (b) the dealer's bottom price might change from day to day, or even sales manager to sales manager, and (c) your handling of the negotiation will help to determine where exactly you end up. A negotiation guide can give you tips and tactics for finding the lower range of these prices, but it won't be published by anyone, it simply wouldn't be possible.
jmonroe, this won't be the first time we've gone in circles, and as long as it's not getting ugly, we'll let folks continue asking questions.
socala4, I can't answer that question completely accurately, though I *believe* we get data from dealerships. You can use the "help" link at the left and submit a question, which will go directly to the desk of someone on the TMV team.
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I can't answer that question completely accurately...
After all these years Edmunds has been a automotive web site, if the question hasn't been answered by now...I'd expect Mr. Edmund doesn't want us to know the answer.
Which raises the question, "WHY NOT?"
kirstie, instead of getting one of the members to chase down an answer, it would probably be better if you were to ask someone from the TMV team.
Because it is proprietary information. If everyone had it, it wouldn't be a marketing advantage for Edmunds. I think Kirstie provided a link to the Edmunds explanation of TMV some posts back, but if I'm wrong, you can get there by going to the Edmunds home page. It's right at the top.
Kirstie's suggestion to send in a question through the Help system is exactly the way to ask about anything you want to know that is not covered at the What is TMV? link. For the explanation, you'll see another link within the initial popup.
I think that Jipster is asking a general question from the 30,000 foot level about the types of sources you typically use to get the raw sales data, not trying to disrupt the business.
For example, JD Power gets its info by surveying car buyers, who they locate by getting data from Polk and the automakers, while Consumer Reports surveys subcribers to its magazine. That gives us a general sense of the methodology, but not enough information to take business away from them.
So I'd be curious to know whether Edmunds surveys buyers, dealers, public records or whomever. I wouldn't think that this aspect would be proprietary, but if it is, let us know.
If this question has already been sufficiently answered please feel free to point me to the thread. Otherwise, I would appreciate feedback on the following from those who know.
We will be buying a new car in the next year or so. I appreciate research and info like Edmunds' True Cost to Own. With that in mind, in relation to ownership cost and depreciation, etc., what time of year is the best time to buy new?
I know at the end of the model year you can get better discounts, but at that point hasn't the car already depreciated more than it would have been if you'd bought it say, 10 months earlier? At what dollar amount does the discount make up for the added depreciation?
Maybe a better question. It's October and you can buy a new 2006 at a discounted price or a new 2007. Which do you buy, all other things being equal? Once bought, won't the 2006 have depreciated more? Again, at what dollar amount does the discount make up for the added depreciation?
As much as I'd like to admit we know as much as our members think we do....it ain't necessarily so.
If it concerns the community or the message boards, the hosts are the experts and will answer your questions in an email or within the discussion if appropriate. If it's a question for the editors, an email to the Help Desk is the best way to contact them. If it's a question concerning TMV, email the Help Desk. Emails sent via Help are allocated to the proper department and the quickest, easiest way to get an answer.
This is one of those questions best answered by "it depends."
If a car has had a radical change of some sort, especially in body design and safety features (like adding side curtain airbags), maybe in horsepower if it's significant, etc., it's usually worth it to buy the newer model.
If the cars are essentially the same other than maybe a little tweaking here and there, maybe a different color in the line-up, then buying the older one can be a very good buy. Takes a little sleuthing to figure out, and you still have to be prepared to negotiate even lower.
Take into consideration your driving habits too - if you usually put fewer miles than average on your car (less than 15,000 a year), then the older car could be a great deal. If you put a lot of miles on, then maybe the newer one might be better.
In April, I bought a new 2005 Nissan 350Z, for $6500 less than list price, which was maybe $4500 or so less than last year's selling price, before the '06's were out. Asking price had been about $5500 less than list; I negotiated a further $1,000 off. In percentages, this was better than 15% less than MSRP. It was about $2,500 less than invoice.
Before signing the check, I checked both kbb and Edmund's TMV, and found the figures for typical first year's depreciation, avg. selling prices, invoice price, etc. The dealer's price was already acknowledging about one year's depreciation; my goal was to hit 1 year and 3/4. I didn't quite make that but I did come close. I felt that was a very good deal.
You want to shoot for at least 10% less than typical *selling* price (which is usually significantly less than MSRP - it might be close to invoice). If you can do that or better, then you're good.
Course it could come down to which car is fitted out closest to what you want, and in the color you want. That's the answer only you can give as to what you value most.
FIND OUT WHAT THEY SAY AND POST IT HERE FOR THOSE SEVERAL THOUSAND MEMBERS!!!
Shew. Now I have a sore throat. Sorry for yelling. :P
Seriously, two hosts and the Community Manager have told you how to ask the question you want answered. That's the thing to do and if you would just do it, you'd use up a lot less energy than continuing to argue this here.
Let us know what you find out. It will be interesting for ALL of us to read.
My original post asked that an Edmunds team member ask the question, as I would imagine they would be more likely to be given a straight answer...and not the runaround. Also, as strickly a matter of customer service, one doesn't ask their customers to do something that you(hosts) could more easily do... on such an important area of concern by so many members.
I would also think that the SEVERAL THOUSAND MEMBERS would prefer to hear the answer from a representative from Edmunds...and not someone with the username of Jipster. :P
A nice program about former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on the History Channel. When asked a tough question...his stragegy was , "Not answer the question the way it was asked...but rather the way you wish it had been asked".
It wasn't an "attitude" and I'm sorry you took it that way. I was kidding with you because we keep giving you the way to ask your question and I also was trying to get you to understand.
We monitor several hundred discussions daily, with several hundred posts, with erm... I'm not good at math... but you can kind of figure up how many questions are contained within those posts, and this doesn't count questions by e-mail. Those would be about Edmunds, InsideLine, the Blogs, CarSpace, car purchasing, vehicle maintenance, etc. Hosts can't possibly provide the answer to every member's question.
As three hosts have now mentioned, we don't know the answer. We're not more likely to get an answer than you are, and if we did get a "secret" answer, we wouldn't be permitted to share it anyway.
This particular line of discussion really HAS now run its course... we're no longer talking about TMV as it relates to purchasing strategies, so let's either relate it again, or move along to other tips & advice.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
O.k...thanks for clarifying pat. Perhaps I'm a bit sleep deprieved. :sick:
Edmunds sources, and "How many licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?", will probably remain two of lifes greatest mysteries. :P
If $20,500(say $500 over invoice) is TMV on a 2006 Toyota Camry, which if graded would be a "C". Any ideas out there as to where a grade "B" or "A" would fall? Maybe, invoice a "B" and $500 and above an "A". Many many factors would enter into the equation obviously.
As three hosts have now mentioned, we don't know the answer.
Thanks and fair enough, I had just assumed that The Powers That Be would have told you guys. I'll drop the TMV folks a line, and pass on the answer here, if everyone's interested (and yes, Jip, I know that you're interested!)
jipster: since you are so intent on getting the answer....how about doing what the HOST requests and ASK the source that they requested you to Ask before all this back and forth BANTER keps on going forever!!!
Any time that a dealer is willing to give a buyer a published price by some independent third party it must be good for him and not the best that the buyer can do.
yeah thats it....edmunds prices are thousands to high. thanks to TMV I got a new airplane and boat this year.
Actually, I don't like edmunds TMV prices but the fact that they are usually do-able doesn't mean they benefit me as a dealer in some grand fashion.
TMV gives somebody who doenst want to do 6 days worth of homework/haggling a simple way to come up with a fair price. I don't know if its the lowest possible or not...either do you.
TMV gives somebody who doenst want to do 6 days worth of homework/haggling a simple way to come up with a fair price. I don't know if its the lowest possible or not...either do you.
Assuming that TMV is accurate, then a buyer who possesses the attributes (negotiation and research skills) needed to obtain a below-average price should be able to pay less, by definition. TMV is the "C" student price -- the average.
For all those that do not know, I work at an Audi store.
We are the number one CPO store in the South. We price our vehicles on average,lower than any of our competition. The way we price our vehicles based on many factors, but 9 times out of ten, they are priced between Edmunds Dealer Retail and Certfied Pre-owned retail. We do not use Edmunds as a determining factor in our pricing but we use it as a Point of Reference. Edmunds is the most accurate, in OUR market, for trade-in amounts on most makes and models, and for Our New vehicles. (all though because some people are giving away A3s right now that number is a little low for us) But NONE of these online guides are 100% accurate. Like I have said many times before, the market determines prices and trade amounts.
I think that from the dealer perspective, it the trade-in amount its too high, then Edmunds is wrong. From a customers perspective, if the trade-in is too low Edmunds is wrong. We show customers auction data, when we are thousands off on trade amount to show where we are coming from. The customer has the right to see that information, so they do not waste their time going all over looking for a number that is impossible to get to.
Some people are perfectly happy being C students. I heard about a guy, he lives in a big white house if I remember right, that isn't ashamed about his C's.
Man, if I got a "C" in any math course, I'd consider it to be my greatest lifelong academic achievement
I don't actually mind paying a "C" price for a vehicle if the transaction can be made quick & painless, no tricks or games, good financing... my NUMBER 1 goal is to be in and out within 1.5 hours with the car I want titled in my name.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I don't actually mind paying a "C" price for a vehicle if the transaction can be made quick & painless, no tricks or games, good financing... my NUMBER 1 goal is to be in and out within 1.5 hours with the car I want titled in my name.
That's a pretty high price to pay, though. And that assumes that negotiation is slow and painful, which it isn't if you manage it properly.
I didn't time it, but the negotiation component of my car purchase didn't take long at all. If you have saved an extra $1,000-3,000 with a good negotiation, I'll bet that this is far more than most of our employers would pay us for that amount of time.
And those are post-tax savings, which means you can increase those amounts by about 50% to calculate how much you'd have to earn in order to spend all of that extra money. Most people would have to earn a few thousand dollars per hour or more before negotiation would begin to cost more than it saves.
Well, I doubt that anyone doing a modest amount of research on Edmunds and goes in at invoice less all incentives is going to save an additional $1,000-$3,000. I mean, dealers will probably sell a car and only make a couple of hundred, but they are not going to lose money, no matter how smoothly you negotiate, are they?
Well, I doubt that anyone doing a modest amount of research on Edmunds and goes in at invoice less all incentives is going to save an additional $1,000-$3,000.
I'm comparing a near-invoice price (above or below) with the TMV, which is often something closer to MSRP. In the case of my car, if memory serves correctly, I would have paid about $1,400 more than I did had I paid the TMV price.
jipster:since you are so intent on getting the answer...
Maybe, you need to go back and read my posts on why I didn't email the "help desk". Actually, kirstie(host) wrote that she "believed" it to be dealerships that were the source of TMV in one of her first posts of the current "banter" thread. But, now the hosts position is they don't know...ask somebody else.
You also may have wanted to read Socala4's post, which was posted 7 hours before your post, that he would email the help desk on the matter.
They(Edmunds) could get their TMV data from satan himself... I could care less. But,it's coming from somewhere!
But NONE of these online guides are 100% accurate. Like I have said many times before, the market determines prices and trade amounts.
Kelley is not accruate, it states is a SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICE. It also states in fine print below the numbers that it does not give out numbers for Dealer retail for cars in fair to good condition. So really the numbers it spits out for dealers are very misleading to consumers as I think 5% of cars can truely be classified as excellent condition.
Edmunds at least gives you the average of what others are paying, and with any statistical data there is a spread on each side. Those numbers would show the selling prices of cars WITH the marketing conditions in play.
Lets face it for most of the cars for sale today on the used car market or new car market there are a gazillon of the same cars all over. There are always low mileage cars.
Auctions are not exactly what I would call "fair market value" for trade ins. As a customer I would want the most for my trade, period. As a dealerhips you run around wanting bozo's to come in and lie down paying your over inflated asking prices.
So why is it unreasonable for customers to act like dealerships? Wanting the highest trade in value and the lowest price on the car in question?
Dealerships want to pay the lowest amount for a trade and want the highest possible amount for the car in question.
I have read and read many of your posts, and I still can't find your tips on how to play the game correctly. I see lots and lots of posts referring to reading the threads and that there is a great deal of advice.. over and over again.
I must be missing your methods and wondered if you could just put them in order for buying a used car???
The way we price our vehicles based on many factors, but 9 times out of ten, they are priced between Edmunds Dealer Retail and Certfied Pre-owned retail.
I'm not in the biz and I can do that by throwing darts, blindfolded.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Man, if I got a "C" in any math course, I'd consider it to be my greatest lifelong academic achievement
I've been away from the computer for a few hours (I really do have a life) and socala4 answered your post #2108 for me. I could not have said it better myself, thanks socala4.
I'm sure you'll agree, even students who routinely got a "C" in math should be able to comprehend his post.
Speed kills,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Scoobs, if you want to read posts from any particular person here, I'd type the handle of the person in question into the search feature, and you will find everything posted by them here.
There are several posters here who have provided good insights, and I check out what each of them had to say. There are some other points in the "Buying Tips" thread, too.
Comments
Nope, not unless you posted it from the obscured side of a grassy knoll.
IMO (notice that doesn't include "humble"), the informed consumer uses more than a single resource to determine the best price and shopping strategy that works best, personally, for him or her. If you rely on one point of data, whether it be TMV or a ludicrous/realistic/ADM price posted in the pricing discussions, you're really limiting your strategy and locking into a one-price-fits-all mentality. If it were that simple, everyone would pay the same price in the same place at the same time of day... the One True Price™, and we know that that's not the case.
If you've got a few minutes of time when your employer isn't looking over your shoulder (don't want anyone to get sacked), you might peruse our explanation on how TMV is calculated: More About TMV.
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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Im starting to wonder about edmunds as well. Today I looked at two cars. Both I offered $500 over Edmunds and the dealerships were like blow off, my offers were way to low.
Edmunds has spoiled all of us with accurate information, now we want everything. If we didn't think highly of Edmunds, we would be spending our time somewhere else.
Maybe somebody in your house can look into this.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
What theories? Its a know fact that aliens that crashed in Roswell are now running car dealerships funneling profits to Elvis who is secretly in charge of the luminati who are trying to control the world through fluoridation in our water supply. Now Edmunds jacks up the TMV so the aliens can make more profit to fund things like black helicopters.
:P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think you'd be surprised. For one, some buyers aren't very clever, and will pay sticker, and possibly even an ADM-based price, for a wide variety of reasons.
For another, there are a lot of buyers who really don't know what they paid. That's often because they made their purchase based upon a monthly payment, rather than on a price, so they have little if any idea of what the car actually cost. For them, car prices vary between $350-400 per month, not based upon the price, and those buyers are very likely to have paid top dollar and then some for their cars.
What was the car? I would submit that TMV falls down on very popular cars, where dealers can be adding a lot of markup to the price and still get away with it.
Sure, the raw data comes in, but if there's a low, there has to be a high, and popular cars, especially in a less-competitive market, are going to skew your average.
Since you're in the biz and you don't have a problem with the TMV I think that you are helping me to make my point.
Any time that a dealer is willing to give a buyer a published price by some independent third party it must be good for him and not the best that the buyer can do.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Is it possible that TMV could be inflated by those who roll over negative equity into a new purchase?
And ccompson has a point... this includes all of the deals in which negative equity was rolled into the cost of the new vehicle. But it also includes some great deals by exceptionally good (or lucky) bargainers.
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I had some access to after auction prices because a friend had a dealer license about 2 years ago (should have bought a car then, not now, lol). It is sick what dealerships pay at those auctions for cars, we are talking low low prices way below what Edmunds lists as asking prices for cars.
The problem is that dealerships have been so used to people who have little to no access to information that they have become accustom to charging ridiculous prices and making huge profits. So if someone comes in and offers a do-able price (that being edmunds) the dealership has to decide at that point if they are willing to do the deal or keep the car on the lot and screw someone down the road.
Isn't that essentially what dealerships do? They want to give customers rock bottom for their cars then want to charge the absolute highest price they can on the car they are selling???
I don't have much doubt that Edmunds attempts to calculate TMV accurately, but can anyone tell us how you obtain the sales data? Is it from state filings, dealership reporting, Polk, all of the above, or something else?
I think we have gone in circles at least two times already on this subject. We all know that the TMV is an average price and as kirstie said, this is a letter grade of "C". Most of us don't want to be average, I know I don't. In fact, average didn't even get you into the field I was in which is probably the case for most of you also. Isn't that why we have an issue with the TMV ?
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH !!
Thanks,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I think that if the goal is to uncover that Magic Price that everyone will accept, you won't find it. One point I've tried to make throughout this thread is that the price you get is based in large part on you.
Each dealer has a range of prices that are acceptable, but (a) not all dealers will be in the same place, (b) the dealer's bottom price might change from day to day, or even sales manager to sales manager, and (c) your handling of the negotiation will help to determine where exactly you end up. A negotiation guide can give you tips and tactics for finding the lower range of these prices, but it won't be published by anyone, it simply wouldn't be possible.
socala4, I can't answer that question completely accurately, though I *believe* we get data from dealerships. You can use the "help" link at the left and submit a question, which will go directly to the desk of someone on the TMV team.
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After all these years Edmunds has been a automotive web site, if the question hasn't been answered by now...I'd expect Mr. Edmund doesn't want us to know the answer.
Which raises the question, "WHY NOT?"
kirstie, instead of getting one of the members to chase down an answer, it would probably be better if you were to ask someone from the TMV team.
Kirstie's suggestion to send in a question through the Help system is exactly the way to ask about anything you want to know that is not covered at the What is TMV? link. For the explanation, you'll see another link within the initial popup.
For example, JD Power gets its info by surveying car buyers, who they locate by getting data from Polk and the automakers, while Consumer Reports surveys subcribers to its magazine. That gives us a general sense of the methodology, but not enough information to take business away from them.
So I'd be curious to know whether Edmunds surveys buyers, dealers, public records or whomever. I wouldn't think that this aspect would be proprietary, but if it is, let us know.
We will be buying a new car in the next year or so. I appreciate research and info like Edmunds' True Cost to Own. With that in mind, in relation to ownership cost and depreciation, etc., what time of year is the best time to buy new?
I know at the end of the model year you can get better discounts, but at that point hasn't the car already depreciated more than it would have been if you'd bought it say, 10 months earlier? At what dollar amount does the discount make up for the added depreciation?
Maybe a better question. It's October and you can buy a new 2006 at a discounted price or a new 2007. Which do you buy, all other things being equal? Once bought, won't the 2006 have depreciated more? Again, at what dollar amount does the discount make up for the added depreciation?
Thanks.
If it concerns the community or the message boards, the hosts are the experts and will answer your questions in an email or within the discussion if appropriate. If it's a question for the editors, an email to the Help Desk is the best way to contact them. If it's a question concerning TMV, email the Help Desk. Emails sent via Help are allocated to the proper department and the quickest, easiest way to get an answer.
If a car has had a radical change of some sort, especially in body design and safety features (like adding side curtain airbags), maybe in horsepower if it's significant, etc., it's usually worth it to buy the newer model.
If the cars are essentially the same other than maybe a little tweaking here and there, maybe a different color in the line-up, then buying the older one can be a very good buy. Takes a little sleuthing to figure out, and you still have to be prepared to negotiate even lower.
Take into consideration your driving habits too - if you usually put fewer miles than average on your car (less than 15,000 a year), then the older car could be a great deal. If you put a lot of miles on, then maybe the newer one might be better.
In April, I bought a new 2005 Nissan 350Z, for $6500 less than list price, which was maybe $4500 or so less than last year's selling price, before the '06's were out. Asking price had been about $5500 less than list; I negotiated a further $1,000 off. In percentages, this was better than 15% less than MSRP. It was about $2,500 less than invoice.
Before signing the check, I checked both kbb and Edmund's TMV, and found the figures for typical first year's depreciation, avg. selling prices, invoice price, etc. The dealer's price was already acknowledging about one year's depreciation; my goal was to hit 1 year and 3/4. I didn't quite make that but I did come close. I felt that was a very good deal.
You want to shoot for at least 10% less than typical *selling* price (which is usually significantly less than MSRP - it might be close to invoice). If you can do that or better, then you're good.
Course it could come down to which car is fitted out closest to what you want, and in the color you want. That's the answer only you can give as to what you value most.
The key to the answer is: How long will you keep the car? The break-even point is four to five years.
You'll save money buying the 2006 model late in the year, but will lose some / all / more of your savings when you trade in the older model.
Buy the 2007 if you will trade in two or three years. You'll get a lot more for the newer trade.
Buy the 2006 if you will keep the car at least five years. The current savings will be more than you'll lose with the older trade.
what time of year is the best time to buy new?
The later you wait to buy the 2006, the better. But you'll be choosing from a diminishing supply.
The best time to buy the 2007 is after Christmas when traffic through dealer showrooms is slow. The dealer is trying to cover his overhead.
Well, that's fine...but there are probably several thousand members who would be interested in the answer. Does the Help Desk people get overtime pay?
Shew. Now I have a sore throat. Sorry for yelling. :P
Seriously, two hosts and the Community Manager have told you how to ask the question you want answered. That's the thing to do and if you would just do it, you'd use up a lot less energy than continuing to argue this here.
Let us know what you find out. It will be interesting for ALL of us to read.
My original post asked that an Edmunds team member ask the question, as I would imagine they would be more likely to be given a straight answer...and not the runaround. Also, as strickly a matter of customer service, one doesn't ask their customers to do something that you(hosts) could more easily do... on such an important area of concern by so many members.
I would also think that the SEVERAL THOUSAND MEMBERS would prefer to hear the answer from a representative from Edmunds...and not someone with the username of Jipster. :P
A nice program about former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on the History Channel. When asked a tough question...his stragegy was , "Not answer the question the way it was asked...but rather the way you wish it had been asked".
This from our Community Manager says it better than I have: KarenS, "Purchasing Strategies - Questions & Success Stories" #2093, 21 Jun 2006 1:46 pm. If you don't like that you should call up her profile and shoot her an email.
We do need to give it a rest here, however.
Thanks!
As three hosts have now mentioned, we don't know the answer. We're not more likely to get an answer than you are, and if we did get a "secret" answer, we wouldn't be permitted to share it anyway.
This particular line of discussion really HAS now run its course... we're no longer talking about TMV as it relates to purchasing strategies, so let's either relate it again, or move along to other tips & advice.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Edmunds sources, and "How many licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?", will probably remain two of lifes greatest mysteries. :P
If $20,500(say $500 over invoice) is TMV on a 2006 Toyota Camry, which if graded would be a "C". Any ideas out there as to where a grade "B" or "A" would fall? Maybe, invoice a "B" and $500 and above an "A". Many many factors would enter into the equation obviously.
Thanks and fair enough, I had just assumed that The Powers That Be would have told you guys. I'll drop the TMV folks a line, and pass on the answer here, if everyone's interested (and yes, Jip, I know that you're interested!)
yeah thats it....edmunds prices are thousands to high. thanks to TMV I got a new airplane and boat this year.
Actually, I don't like edmunds TMV prices but the fact that they are usually do-able doesn't mean they benefit me as a dealer in some grand fashion.
TMV gives somebody who doenst want to do 6 days worth of homework/haggling a simple way to come up with a fair price. I don't know if its the lowest possible or not...either do you.
Assuming that TMV is accurate, then a buyer who possesses the attributes (negotiation and research skills) needed to obtain a below-average price should be able to pay less, by definition. TMV is the "C" student price -- the average.
We are the number one CPO store in the South. We price our vehicles on average,lower than any of our competition. The way we price our vehicles based on many factors, but 9 times out of ten, they are priced between Edmunds Dealer Retail and Certfied Pre-owned retail. We do not use Edmunds as a determining factor in our pricing but we use it as a Point of Reference. Edmunds is the most accurate, in OUR market, for trade-in amounts on most makes and models, and for Our New vehicles. (all though because some people are giving away A3s right now that number is a little low for us) But NONE of these online guides are 100% accurate. Like I have said many times before, the market determines prices and trade amounts.
I think that from the dealer perspective, it the trade-in amount its too high, then Edmunds is wrong. From a customers perspective, if the trade-in is too low Edmunds is wrong. We show customers auction data, when we are thousands off on trade amount to show where we are coming from. The customer has the right to see that information, so they do not waste their time going all over looking for a number that is impossible to get to.
I don't actually mind paying a "C" price for a vehicle if the transaction can be made quick & painless, no tricks or games, good financing... my NUMBER 1 goal is to be in and out within 1.5 hours with the car I want titled in my name.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
That's a pretty high price to pay, though. And that assumes that negotiation is slow and painful, which it isn't if you manage it properly.
I didn't time it, but the negotiation component of my car purchase didn't take long at all. If you have saved an extra $1,000-3,000 with a good negotiation, I'll bet that this is far more than most of our employers would pay us for that amount of time.
And those are post-tax savings, which means you can increase those amounts by about 50% to calculate how much you'd have to earn in order to spend all of that extra money. Most people would have to earn a few thousand dollars per hour or more before negotiation would begin to cost more than it saves.
I'm comparing a near-invoice price (above or below) with the TMV, which is often something closer to MSRP. In the case of my car, if memory serves correctly, I would have paid about $1,400 more than I did had I paid the TMV price.
Maybe, you need to go back and read my posts on why I didn't email the "help desk". Actually, kirstie(host) wrote that she "believed" it to be dealerships that were the source of TMV in one of her first posts of the current "banter" thread. But, now the hosts position is they don't know...ask somebody else.
You also may have wanted to read Socala4's post, which was posted 7 hours before your post, that he would email the help desk on the matter.
They(Edmunds) could get their TMV data from satan himself... I could care less. But,it's coming from somewhere!
Kelley is not accruate, it states is a SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICE. It also states in fine print below the numbers that it does not give out numbers for Dealer retail for cars in fair to good condition. So really the numbers it spits out for dealers are very misleading to consumers as I think 5% of cars can truely be classified as excellent condition.
Edmunds at least gives you the average of what others are paying, and with any statistical data there is a spread on each side. Those numbers would show the selling prices of cars WITH the marketing conditions in play.
Lets face it for most of the cars for sale today on the used car market or new car market there are a gazillon of the same cars all over. There are always low mileage cars.
Auctions are not exactly what I would call "fair market value" for trade ins. As a customer I would want the most for my trade, period. As a dealerhips you run around wanting bozo's to come in and lie down paying your over inflated asking prices.
So why is it unreasonable for customers to act like dealerships? Wanting the highest trade in value and the lowest price on the car in question?
Dealerships want to pay the lowest amount for a trade and want the highest possible amount for the car in question.
I have read and read many of your posts, and I still can't find your tips on how to play the game correctly. I see lots and lots of posts referring to reading the threads and that there is a great deal of advice.. over and over again.
I must be missing your methods and wondered if you could just put them in order for buying a used car???
I'm not in the biz and I can do that by throwing darts, blindfolded.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Not so loud you're letting the secret get out.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I've been away from the computer for a few hours (I really do have a life) and socala4 answered your post #2108 for me. I could not have said it better myself, thanks socala4.
I'm sure you'll agree, even students who routinely got a "C" in math should be able to comprehend his post.
Speed kills,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
There are several posters here who have provided good insights, and I check out what each of them had to say. There are some other points in the "Buying Tips" thread, too.
I think you missed my point.
Have you ever maintained Used Car Inventory?