1. It's a NEON! Far from a "hot" car in fact, quite the opposite.
2. It's yellow
Those are items which could make it a "hot" car in a "college town".
I'd drive to the nearest non-college town and buy it for a grand less.
Another thing to consider (weathermike) , paying Edmunds TMV (dealer retail) would be a big mistake. I think you should try for at least Edmunds private party value.. or slighty below that. Remember TMV is just the average price Neons are selling for, which means you should be able to do much better than TMV.
When I referenced 'reasonably priced', I was talking generically about the price range around 5K....nothing to do with your particular vehicle, only that it is in a particular dollar range.
If I was looking for a set of wheels for a student at some college somewhere, where it was going to be parked a lot in questionable parking areas, getting dings and dents, loaned out to other students, doesn't cost a lot to insure, and after 4 years gets thrown away and replaced be a real car.......what price range would you target?
2-3K would be junk cars 10+K would be too expensive of a car to have sitting around in that environment 5-8K has a chance of being a decent car that doesn't break the bank.
You're right in that I probably should find another car. But I'm really lost as to what I'm supposed to do. So I know for next time, how do I show I'm an "informed buyer" without doing what I did? I mean I went in there, let him make the first offer, gave him a price lower than I wanted to pay, and one by one as the situation dictated, laid out all the facts. Isn't that what a savvy buyer does?
I thought I made a strong case and did everything right-- we just couldn't agree. That happens.
How could I "try" for private party value? Am I supposed to get a car stickered at five grand for $3350? Even before my experience, I would have figured they would laugh me out of the building if I tried that. To get to $3350 you'd have to start even lower... which would be darn near a 50% discount off the sticker.
Let me shed some insight into this particular dealer. I went through the online listings for each of the vehicles stickered close to the sticker of the Neon. There were seven in total. It was a mix of small cars, SUVs, and a truck. The SUVs and truck were all reasonably priced. The sticker was within 50 bucks of what Edmunds said I should pay, meaning that I could easily beat the suggested price with little negotiating. But the cars were an average of being overpriced by about a thousand dollars. All with the exception of one have been sitting there since May or June.
I think you are going to have to wait more than 'a few days' for your next conversation about this car.
With your current interest level, and previous bargining, I don't think the guy is going to come down to your price if you show up again soon.
If you are willing to wait a month, and this thing is still there, and the weather in your area is getting colder, you will have a better shot at getting it for $4,200.....
The SUVs and truck were all reasonably priced. The sticker was within 50 bucks of what Edmunds said I should pay,
Of course, they can't get rid of the trucks and SUVs with people freaking out about gas prices. If you're looking in that price range and your commute is light, I'd say buy one of those. The reason all the cars are marked up $1K or more is because people will pay for that "because of the gas savings". There was a comment about buying a new moped for $1500. Many people have done that, too "for the gas savings" - but if you work out the mileage to save the outlay on the purchase, it doesn't make sense. Not many folks bother to do that.
So I know for next time, how do I show I'm an "informed buyer" without doing what I did? I mean I went in there, let him make the first offer, gave him a price lower than I wanted to pay, and one by one as the situation dictated, laid out all the facts. Isn't that what a savvy buyer does?
Everyone has their own method. Here's mine - cue reminiscence of bobst here. You go in, find your car (you've already done your pricing homework), YOU (the customer) make the offer, they accept it or you leave. Why waste time letting them make an offer, etc. You already know what they want for the car, that's why there's a sticker on it. If the dealer makes the first offer, the sticker price will be it. Then you are going to waste your next two hours (and the salesperson's next two hours) trying to chip away at the price. After two hours, you'll both be frustrated, but the dealer has the much greater advantage (you're in their store, after all). Many customers get worn out and pay just to get it over with.
The bottom line is this: if you like that car so much, buy it for $4700 and drive it like you stole it! :P But seriously, if this is an '02 Neon that they bought from auction with over $100K miles on it, I'd stay away. There's a reason the original dealer (the one who took it in trade) didn't keep it. Good luck either way!
You did allright. The part of "NADA/KBB/guide/how do you sell things you can't finance" was the part of somewhat unnecessary discussion about how to conduct the business I was referring to - but again, the fact you didn't get suckered into buying a product you were not comfortable with and stood your ground, says well. Maybe you were right, maybe not, at this point it's more about you didn't let your own conviction and guard down. But remember - don't make it personal.
BTW, 12K/yr is not "low mileage", but I would say it's below usual. Consider number of people commuting 15-20 miles/day: 52weeks*5days*2*(15 to 20 miles) = 7,800 to 10,400 miles just for commuting. Add personal business and you get anywhere from 13K to 15K per year. I would expect luxury car of newer model years are expected to have mileage in 12K or less per year (those "cheap" leases), but non-lux older vintage would be expected higher (regular workhorse after two or three owners).
So I know for next time, how do I show I'm an "informed buyer" without doing what I did? I mean I went in there, let him make the first offer, gave him a price lower than I wanted to pay, and one by one as the situation dictated, laid out all the facts. Isn't that what a savvy buyer does?
I would agree with the letting them make the first offer, and giving a price lower than you wanted to pay. But, I think once you get to the point of explaining why the car should be priced lower, you're just wasting your time. You only wanted to pay $4,200 for the Neon. So, I would have said "That's what I think the car is worth and is all I'm willing to pay, if something comes up in the next day or two where you can sell it for that, give me a call"... then walk out.
i>I thought I made a strong case and did everything right-- we just couldn't agree. That happens
I've always said a buyer should use whatever negotiation method they are most comfortable with. But, as you said, sometimes an agreement can't be made... certainly has happened to me on more than one occasion.
Otherwise, I would move on. Lots of cheap Neons out there!
I'd go a bit further and say that there all kinds of cheap cars out there- and most of them are better drives then a Neon. Even one with a "sporty" rear spoiler.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
You did fine Mike. You did your research and knew what you were willing to pay for the car beforehand. You couldn't come to an agreement with the dealer and walked away. It happens, and there are lots of other cars out there. Don't worry about it too much, but do learn from the experience.
Everyone has their advice on what you could have done differently. All of that is ok, but realize it is all coming from different perspectives. Everyone has their own way of handling this kind of thing.
There is lots here that we don't know. We don't know everything that was said during your time with the salesman. You may have said something or done something that gave the salesman the impression that you were hot for the car. If that is the case, it is no big surprise he stuck to his guns on price. The salesman could have been a little put off by the education you gave him on how the car should have been priced. Might have ticked him off just enough for him to dig in and hold a hard line. These kind of things happen. It is just hard to tell if they happened here.
My advice, always be willing to walk away. Never fall in love with a car before you buy it, or at least if you do, don't show it. Personally I would make my first offer much closer to my target price, and be open to one bump to my target price. My offer is presented as what I am willing to pay, and I may share one reason why, but never multiple reasons why and most especially never any reason that disparages the dealer (such as it is too bad for them they paid too much for the car).
BTW - when researching value of a used car, post the details of the car here in the Real World Trade in Values thread. Knowing what similar cars are going for at auction is a good piece of info, and most likely more up to date than the pricing guides.
How could I "try" for private party value? Am I supposed to get a car stickered at five grand for $3350? Even before my experience, I would have figured they would laugh me out of the building if I tried that. To get to $3350 you'd have to start even lower... which would be darn near a 50% discount off the sticker
(Yoda speaking) " either do or do not do... there is no try." :surprise:
I'll take you back four and a half years, to a time when this young jipersnapper was just a novice on Edmunds. I was in the market for a Buick Regal.
The dealership had stickered a 1999 Buick Regal for $8,999 and put it on "sale" for $7,999. A very nice car, excellent condition, only 54k miles. After negotiating on the price a bit, I was able to get a price of $6,500, which was a bit under private party value. So, it can be done... is done all the time as a matter of fact. Pushing for dealer trade-in wouldn't be out of the question either. Used cars is where dealerships make all their money.
Edmunds has pricing for "Dealer Trade-In", "Private Party Sale", and "Dealer Retail". Dealerships buy at wholesale prices that are less than Edmunds "Dealer Trade -In". So if your dealership gave $3,000 Edmunds trade-in for a 2002 Neon, they would pay around $2,500 at auction. Say Edmunds Private Party price would be $4,500, and Dealer Retail would be around $6,000.
So, look at what a dealership pays for a car... and then what it tries to sell it for. You're looking at a 30%-40% mark-up... and on lower priced cars even 50%. I think it better to look at what a dealership pays for a car, then go from there, as opposed to what price they are listing a car at.
Wow, I was reading this post on "Stories" and when I went to reply it had disappeared. For a second I thought I was have those agent orange flashbacks. :sick:
Any way, your experience sounds like one I had a few years ago at a Chrysler store. The car was priced thousands higher than NADA retail, the salesman frequently repeated that he had 30 years in the business and he claimed that all the books were bogus because his used cars were going up in value not down.
After all the dancing was over he offered dealer retail, I offered dealer wholesale and we met in the middle. I probably paid too much.
BTW, if you're in the market for a car with 100K miles for $4200 I can sell you the Chrysler I bought at that store. Just don't look up the TMV on it.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Just to be clear, Jip - the markup you are referring to is not exactly profit. Even Friendly Joe at the Corner has some costs associated with keeping the car on his lot. Even Joe will recondition the car, at least the exterior and interior and he has some utilities to pay for. So I would grant Joe some of that markup as his actual cost - of course the trick is Joe needs to pick up this car at the right price so after he sold it to me, he makes money. If he bought it for too much - his loss, just like mine when I bought that house in 2005 I'm OK, living there, paying everything on time and more, not going anywhere anytime soon, but Geez - it does suck to learn that in next five years or more I'm going to get less than I paid - only goo side is my real estate taxes went down significanlty. (just as I always said, the house you live in is a lifestyle choice first, expense and liability second and if you lucky may turn into money saver/investment third - but in that order).
After all the dancing was over he offered dealer retail, I offered dealer wholesale and we met in the middle....
...which is around Edmunds Private Party sell price. You offered dealer wholesale, and am assuming you weren't "laughed out of the building", as you ended up with the car. So, I think looking for a price between dealer trade-in value and private party would be a good strategy to save some money. You don't ask you don't get.
Just to be clear, Jip - the markup you are referring to is not exactly profit
Right. For a car in this price range I may start around $500 over what I think the wholesale price of the vehicle would be. That should take care of profit and whatever reconditioning is done.. , which usually is not a whole lot on a $4,000 vehicle.
Okay, you guys have given me a lot of good pointers, but I still have some questions.
How do I know what the wholesale value of the car ought to be, or what the dealer probably paid? And even if I know these things, what good will they do me in negotiations? For example, if I had a good idea of what the dealer probably paid and I went in there and used that figure, then the salesman would have used his "we paid $5200" line. How do I counter something like that? I have no proof of what they paid. He could just say "your guess is wrong."
I did a lot of research on cars, and I thought the Neon was about the best value I could get. I'm sure that will make you guys laugh, but that it does shows that it shouldn't cost much money to buy. I want a fairly recent car (so the bank would agree to finance) that handles well and is at least fairly good on gas (i.e. economy class). With my budget, I really don't want to pay much more than this. You guys say there are lots of cars just as good out there: what are they? Thanks.
With my budget, I really don't want to pay much more than this. You guys say there are lots of cars just as good out there: what are they? Thanks.
How about a used Corolla, Civic, Cavalier, Cobalt, Echo, Prizm, Metro, Elantra, Accent, Spectra, etc., etc.
For my money, I'd look for a used Elantra - you're likely to find one with lower mileage for a lower price. Have a mechanic check it out (on a lift - pay him or her for their time - it's worth it). The Elantra has a good history for reliability now, but still has a low resale value, so it can be had cheap. Some of these other cars (particularly Civic and Corolla) are great cars, but kind of pricey. Good luck!
How do I know what the wholesale value of the car ought to be, or what the dealer probably paid?
Personally I wouldn't say anything about what they may or may not have paid for the car. I would simply concentrate on what you will pay for the car. What they paid is meaningless to you and the selling price of the car. There is no law that they have to make so much profit, or any for that matter.
Just research what the price to you should be and make offers based on that and what the car is worth to you. If they ask how you got it just say thats what your willing to pay. Don't fall into the trap of paying them their cost and a profit.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You need to come to grips with the fact that no matter whether you make what you feel is a fair and reasonable offer or not, the dealership for whatever reason may choose not to sell it to you because they think they can get more for it.
On a couple occasions with car purchases, I have researched and made fair offers to dealers, and after negotiations they get to the point that they say they absolutely can not sell it at that price. I walked out and went to another dealer, who easily ended up beating the first dealers minimum deal price....by substantial margins.
I don't worry about it anymore, just move on to a different dealership, and a different vehicle if need be.
You mentioned you are 21 and looking 16 - it may be to your detriment. Some bad habits are hard to break and a lot of salepeople may just get that tunnel vision of a shark stalking a baby seal. Perhaps bringing along an older friend (or a parent) may help - not actually tell you what to do (or negotiate) but to keep shark instincts in check, if you know what I mean. I know it sounds awful and by no means I'm suggesting you can't do it on your own, but sometimes quick and simple fixes are best, even if require to swallow some pride. You can quickly establish that it's actually your money, but the other person is in "advisor" capacity, even if all they need to do is stand, say nothing and look "grownup" for you.
For example, if I had a good idea of what the dealer probably paid and I went in there and used that figure, then the salesman would have used his "we paid $5200" line. How do I counter something like that? I have no proof of what they paid. He could just say "your guess is wrong."
You are not concerned with what this particular dealer paid for this particular car. Frankly you may never know what this dealer paid for the car. He could tell you anything. So don't think in terms of refuting what he is telling you. That is just an argument that most likely will go nowhere quick. Stick with what you know and what you are willing to do.
I agree with snakeweasel. It is not your concern if the dealer makes any profit, but it is also understood that if the dealer is making no profit then he is less likely to do the deal.
The guides like Edmunds TMV or KBB might get you in the ballpark, but they also might only get in the parking lot of the ballpark. Current auction prices on similar cars get you in the batter's box. None of this is about trying to figure out what the dealer paid for the car, but rather about trying to figure out what he is likely to get for the car. Auction prices are $W to $X, your max price is $Z, you offer $Y. Your offer is essentially a guaranteed amount for the dealer. Auctions or the next customer remain a gamble for the dealer. The dealer must decide, take the guaranteed amount or take the gamble. He may counter. You go back with $Z and tell him it is your highest and best offer. He is back to deciding. If he takes the offer, deal is done. If he decides to take the gamble, you thank him for his time, wish him well and walk away. No arguments, no trying to convince him he paid too much for the car, no trying to convince him your offer is the best he is likely to get (it also remains that he actually might get more from the next customer or at auction). It is just what each of you are willing to do. That might match, it might not. If it doesn't, move on.
The rest of your post leaves the impression with me that you were/are indeed hot for this particular car. As I said earlier, if the salesman got a whiff of this, it does not surprise me that he stuck to his guns on price. Young student, pretty limited budget, needs a cheap car, hot for this car is the kicker that convinces the salesman to not budge much. Did/do you have any other car under consideration?
Okay, you guys have given me a lot of good pointers, but I still have some questions.
I know I’m late to this party and like you said ‘ you’ve gotten lots of advice’ from some knowledgeable folks on these Edmunds boards.
So, take the advice and buy what you want. You don’t have to explain how you got your numbers. They’re only going to be shot down by the salesman anyway. If that car can’t be bought (for whatever reason) at the price you must pay to stay within your budget you have to fall in love with another car. It’s that simple. Stop beating yourself up over this. It ain’t (as one of our posters has said before you got here) “rocket surgery”, you’re just buying a car.
I’m sure at your age it won’t be your last one and some day, by watching your budget now, you’ll be in a position a little later to buy exactly what you want and not be worried about a couple extra bucks.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
This is what I'm trying to figure out, folks. Where do I find out these auction prices?
I had some other cars in mind (obviously this is the one I wanted first or I wouldn't have negotiated), and I showed him the folder of papers on them I had. I don't feel I expressed any excitement about the car. I was careful to avoid that.
Post details of any used car in there and your location, and a dealer will tell you what similar cars are going for at auction. The post message screen has an outline of the info you need to provide.
Okay, so you say if auction prices are in a range from W to X, I should offer Y and counter (if needed) with Z. Pardon my algebra, but where should the values Y and Z be with respect to W and X? Should Y and Z both be more? Less? Both in the middle? Etc.
Pardon my algebra, but where should the values Y and Z be with respect to W and X? Should Y and Z both be more? Less? Both in the middle? Etc.
I sure hope 'matt' can help you with this, cause I wasn't no good with Algebra either. However, you might still be in luck because one of our hosts is. Heck, I'm sure he can set up an equation that even a novice can follow.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Pardon my algebra, but where should the values Y and Z be with respect to W and X?
The values of Y and Z has little to do with the values of W and X. Remember what they paid for the car has little to do with what they can sell the car for. What they can sell the car for is based on the market. If they paid 10 grand for a car and the market states that they can only sell it for 8K then they lose money. Hopefully they can sell more for profits and stay in business but there is no law that says that they have to make a profit.
Just find a fair price for the car and stick with it and never mind what they paid for it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Used cars (or as the dealers like to say..."pre-owned, or pre-loved") cars are a whole different animal.
New cars are relatively easy to put a number on in comparison. It's easy to find invoice, holdback, incentives, etc. All a buyer has to do is figure out how motivated the store is to make a deal on new stock.
Used cars are more difficult (if not impossible) to find true dealer cost on. Is it a trade-in? Did the dealer over-allow on the trade to make a deal on the new car? How much reconditioning did the dealer have to do? Was it a simple wash and wax? Or something more in-depth? New brakes? Did they have to reupholster the seats to compensate for a cigarette burn hole? Replace a cracked windshield? Body work? Can it be certified?
Fact is, we don't know those variables. You can make some assumptions about the relative worth of a used car. Look here at Edmunds. Look at Black Book, Blue Book, Manheim. But, even those resources won't tell much about how much a dealer has in a used car.
I've seen some crazy prices on used cars.....thousands more than what I personally think it's worth. But, who knows? Somebody, somewhere may put a higher value on that used car over what I'd pay.
One thing I know for certain. Whenever I trade-in a car, I make certain that it looks the best I can make it look. Clean interior. A fresh "spritz" of Fabreeze in the interior (to mask the smell of that one french fry that dropped between the seats 2 years ago). Washed and waxed. All service records sitting on the seat in a folder.
I always make it a point to tell the Used Car SM that they can put it on the lot, as is, with little or no effort on reconditioning. While I will never get retail value on a trade. I will get more $$$ for it in the condition it's in, than I would if I drove it on the dealer's lot looking like "pigpen" was the primary driver.
Remember what they paid for the car has little to do with what they can sell the car for.
Your examples are the exception rather than the rule. Sure dealerships will try to get as much as they can, but the trick for the buyer is to find the lowest price they are willing to sell at. That's why finding out what a dealership paid for a car would be extremely beneficial.
What they can sell the car for is based on the market
The "market" is an average. i.e The same car could be sold for $1,000 over market, or $1,000 under market value... depending on how well educated and informed the buyer is. So, your "find a fair price for the car" strategy could end up meaning you paid $1,000 to $2,000 more than what you could have gotten the car for. It may be a "fair" price, but why pay more if you don't have to?
What has "fair" got to do with anything anyhow snakey? Either a dealer will sell you the car or he won't. You go up to a salesman and kick him in the nads, then run off with the keys to a new Lexus... that's not "fair". You say I'll give you $600 under dealer cost for that new Lexus and the dealership agrees, well the dealership won't care for zero profit, but he signed the papers too... it's certainly "fair".
I still don't think it should matter what a dealer may have paid for a used car that he is selling. It's either a good value for the buyer in his mind, or it's not.
I know we get some shoppers who just agonize over the fact that they don't know and can't find out what we have invested in a used car they are looking at. Sometimes, that are so brazen that they will actually ask!
Cleaning up your trade in makes a lot of sense but you won't believe the pig stys that people will trade in and expect top dollar for. I have taken in trades that were so filthy and smelled so bad inside I didn't even want to park them afterwards.
And, a lot of times the trade-ins that people honestly think are ion great shape are not as free of trouble as they think they are.
A recent example as a 2000 Toyota Sienna that I took in a couple of weeks ago. It was very clean inside and out with about 90,000 miles on it.
" Have you replaced the timing belt?" "Ah...don't think so."
" It's going to need a set of tires soon".." It will? they look pretty good to me".
Well, the tires weren't "bad" but they only had about 3/32's of tread remaining and we won't sell them like that.
We did the timing belt job including a new water pump and the other belts, we discovered a leaking power steering rack and a bad wheel bearing. It also needed nrw brakes and we replaced the tires. There were a few other things as well that ran the recon bill up to nearly 2500.00.
In the mind of the customer, the Sienna was in great condition and, for the most part, it was. This is pretty typical.
A recent example as a 2000 Toyota Sienna that I took in a couple of weeks ago. It was very clean inside and out with about 90,000 miles on it.
Well, that van was 9 years old. It's expected it would need a lot of reconditioning to sell on a dealers lot.
I mean come on, as an example, say you're looking at a 3 year old Lexus on a dealers lot, before negotiating the salesman asks you if you want to know how much they paid for it... what are you going to say, no, it doesn't matter?
I'm thinking mostly of cars for sale that range from 1 to 4, maybe 5 years old. I would think typically these cars would require much less reconditioning.
Remember it is about at least attempting to figure out what a dealer may get for the car. It is not about figuring out what a dealer has in the car. As others have pointed out, it is just way to hard to figure that out.
Think of it alphabetically, lowest to highest.
W to X = the range similar cars are currently going for at auction. To the dealer this should represent their low that they reasonably could get out of the car. Z = the highest you are willing to pay for the car. This may indeed be what the sticker says, but my guess is it won't. Y = somewhere between.
I would suggest that both Y and Z are higher than W to X. Your offer should be more attractive to the dealer than the lowest they may reasonably expect.
I survived algebra ok. I spent one week in a calculus class. When the professor started talking about imaginary numbers, I dropped the class. Real numbers give me enough of a headache. :sick:
Someone else may just walk in, look at that yellow Neon, thinks it's fairly priced and buy it on the spot!
Happens every day
Yep.
and that variable is the most difficult to figure out. For all any of us know, that may be the more common experience of the dealer we've been talking about. Maybe yellow Neons really are a hot item in that town.
It is not about figuring out what a dealer has in the car. As others have pointed out, it is just way to hard to figure that out
Maybe, I'm just shopping at more reputable dealerships. The times I've looked at pre-owned, the dealership will always volunteer any reconditioning done. i.e "it's got new brake pads, two new front tires, and a new battery". I doubt they will mention if they have to pull out a couple big dents., But, telling a potential buyer all of the recently installed new parts on a nice looking car, would certainly help it sell faster. Now, you pull out a list as long as your whiskers, on what was replaced, then you've got the customer thinking the vehicle is a piece of junk.
So, you've got an auction price and the items that were reconditioned. Throw in a couple % points and you've narrowed the price down pretty close.
Yes, a dealer will probably share info that hopefully makes the car more attractive, and it may represent costs to the dealer. The dealer will also probably use this info to justify his price on the car.
I am just doubtful that a dealer will volunteer that exact amount they have in the car. They might, but I am more interested in what the market is saying about the car when determining what I am willing to pay for the car.
As the saying goes..."one man's ceiling is another man's floor".
I know what I consider "nice" in a used car. In general, I want one with no major mechanical needs, like the timing belt, or tires, or water/fuel pumps...no smoke coming out of the tailpipe, no slipping auto transmissions, no squealling brakes or mushy brake peddles, good tire tread, all equipment works. Most of those things are easy enough to see. Others, you have to put it on the rack to get a good idea.
Still....a quick peak underneath and under the hood, you can tell if oil is seeping out of the valve cover gasket (no matter how much shiny stuff the dealer details the engine bay with. You can see of there's oil splattered all over the underside. You can pull the dip stick to see of the oil is burnt, or the auto transmission fluid is brown instead of red. Do the belts look old and frayed? Or are they tight and in good condition. What color (and smell) is the radiator fluid?
But, if you drive enough cars, you can tell what their needs may be.
Cosmetics are little different. I don't expect a 5-6-7 year old car to be perfect cosmetically. But, overspray around the door jams, or in the trunk is a sure fire way to tell if there's been body work. Do the body panels line up? A quick knuckle knock all over the body will tell you if there's bondo where metal should be. Look to see if there are parts of the paint to tell if there's a different sheen from one part of the car to another. Do the shades match up from one body panel to the next?
15 minutes of acting like Columbo will tell you a world of information about a used car.
the trick for the buyer is to find the lowest price they are willing to sell at
I have a slight problem with this statement. If you walk into a car dealership with the intention of "beating" the dealer you could end up walking away from a great deal just because he won't budge on his reasonable price. Perhaps it could have been better phrased, "a car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it."
If you go in knowing roughly how much you should pay for a car (knowing what car you want, and taking into consideration condition, miles, carfax reports, market, etc) then it should just be a matter of whether the dealer will be willing to part with the car for that price. If you're being reasonable with your expectations, this should be a 30 minute process max.
The long drawn out negotiations are the ones where the buyer has no idea what car they want or how much they should pay for it, and the dealer has had the car for a while and is already bottomed out on price. For example, if a dealer buys a car for $12k and it's only worth $10k, are you going to pay $14k? No, of course not. But think of it on the flip side for a second. If the dealer manages to steal one somehow for $5k and the car's worth $15k do you really think he's going to sell it to you for $6k? No way, you'll pay close to market value.
This is why I say, forget about dealer profits, forget about hammering him down to his "best price", just go in knowing a rough figure, a max number that you'll pay, and if it works, it works. If not, don't sit there trying to talk him into it for 3 hours. It won't work and you'll just leave thinking he was trying to cheat you, when in reality you have no idea what the situation was. There's no reason to get hostile unless you are actually treated unfairly... simply refusing to move on price is not treating you unfairly.
"...And, a lot of times the trade-ins that people honestly think are in great shape are not as free of trouble as people think they are..."
Gee Isell, when did you go all soft and squishy on me? You know that the average trade-in owner knows EXACTLY what is wrong with his car. That's why he's trying to dump it off on you. He figures you will fix it up and pawn it off on some other sucker before it blows up. How many times has a poster said something like "The tranny was starting to slip so I brought it over to Carmax"?
If dealers did half the things that private owners do when trying to get rid of their klunker, they'd be in jail.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
One dark and rainy night years ago, I had a nice middle aged couple that were trading in a Mazda MPV minivan. It was immaculate inside and out and it ran very well. But is was a Mazda minivan and these really don't sell well either new or as used cars.
We made an offer and they were not happy with it. Out came the file folder waith stacks of internet printouts. Of course, they rated their car to be in excellent condition! They went on and on about how well they had maintained it etc,
It was a cold night but the A/C didn't seem to be getting very cold. They informed me that they were suer it "just needed a charge" Yeah, right.
In order to make the deal, we paid more than we wanted for the Mazda but we did the deal.
The next morning, one of our lot attendants went to move the MAzda and it wouldn't go into gear! After ideling in drive for five minutes or so, it finally warmed up and the transmission started working, This is called Morning Sickness and it isn't good!
So we ran it over to the Mazda dealer to have them take a look at it,
They inputted the car's VIN numbner into their system and laughed. " I thought that car looked familiar!"
Then the printed a copy of a work order they ahd done the week before...
" Customer stated transmission won't engage w\hen car is cold"
Problem determined - Needs rebuilt transmission - 3500.00!
" Customer states A/C blowing hot"
Problem determined - Needs compressor and a receiver/ dryer - 1300.00
If dealers did half the things that private owners do when trying to get rid of their klunker, they'd be in jail.
So true. People think that car dealers are cheats and liars so they assume it's ok to cheat and lie to us. Nowadays with the federal laws protecting the customer, it's all but impossible to cheat or lie to a customer anymore, but there's nothing protecting the dealers from getting screwed over.
Your examples are the exception rather than the rule.
How can that be? I didn't give any examples.
Sure dealerships will try to get as much as they can, but the trick for the buyer is to find the lowest price they are willing to sell at.
No the trick is for the buyer to get it at a reasonable price. What if the sellers lowest price is unreasonable? If thats the case the car will sit on the lot until the dealership wises up and lowers the price.
My whole point is that it matters little what the dealer paid for the car. What matters is what the fair market price is.
The "market" is an average. i.e The same car could be sold for $1,000 over market, or $1,000 under market value... depending on how well educated and informed the buyer is.
True the market is an average and you should do your research and find out what it is and shoot for that or maybe even less.
What has "fair" got to do with anything anyhow snakey?
You seem to be misinterrepting the term "fair". In this case it is what the market deems a price would or should be.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you go in knowing roughly how much you should pay for a car (knowing what car you want, and taking into consideration condition, miles, carfax reports, market, etc)
Exactly... all are pieces of the puzzle in trying to determine what to pay for a pre-owned car, and getting a good price. To me, another big piece of the puzzle would be the knowing what the dealership paid for a car. I haven't been advocating buying solely on that one big piece, but all the variables some of you have mentioned, as well that big piece.
If the dealer manages to steal one somehow for $5k and the car's worth $15k do you really think he's going to sell it to you for $6k?
Like I told snakey, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. The vast majority of the time you will not have a case like you described. So, you gotta go with what you believe the norm to be. If it doesn't work out, you move on to the next guy.
I like to find a range of prices when I am buying pre-ownd. I'll start with the lowest price I think a dealership will accept, and then work up to the most I am willing to pay, which would still be a good deal.
If dealers did half the things that private owners do when trying to get rid of their klunker, they'd be in jail.
Since when have you become one with the darkside? I'm moving your "reprogramming" session up to next Tuesday.... $50 fee for cancellation without 24 hour notice.
I can't say I've personally dealt with a dealership who has tried to rip me off. I've had a few of them play "tricks"on me. Some dealerships, and customers, are pretty good at walking that line between fraud and creative marketing.
tidester wrote per gg's comment : "15 minutes of acting like Columbo will tell you a world of information about a used car. "
"I don't know! If you look at the condition of Columbo's 1959 Peugeot 403 Cabriolet convertible he would be the last person I'd call in for advice."
Agreed on Columbo's slovenliness. As well as the condition of his classic car. But one doesn't call in Columbo for advice, one calls in Columbo for negotiation. Not a grinder per se but one whose behavior and demeanor are annoying enough that any salesman would gladly take a minor commission or cost just to be able to flee the lot.
tidester : This 2003 Neon has 89,000 miles and is priced at $4,300.
Columbo : There is a mark here on the carpet, and a cloth beside it. Geez that’s odd.
tidester : What’s odd about it?
Columbo : Well it looks as if that someone has knocked a red soda over or something similar, and it looks like the victim was cleaning it up just before he died.
Moi : OMG, someone died in this vehicle ?
tidester : How do you know he was cleaning it up just before he died? He may have been doing it earlier.
Columbo : But if he’d been doing it earlier he’d have finished scrubbing the carpet and taken the cloth with him.
tidester : So he had just been scrubbing the carpet. What does that prove?
Columbo : May be nothing, but it certainly makes the possibility of deliberate suicide less likely. I mean why bother to clean up the mess at all if you are about to kill yourself?
Moi : Omg someone committed suicide in this car? I'm leaving.
tidester : $ 3,250 ? And as your friend noted, he didn't commit suicide he was just killed in the car. Wait! $2,950?
Comments
2. It's yellow
Those are items which could make it a "hot" car in a "college town".
I'd drive to the nearest non-college town and buy it for a grand less.
Another thing to consider (weathermike) , paying Edmunds TMV (dealer retail) would be a big mistake. I think you should try for at least Edmunds private party value.. or slighty below that. Remember TMV is just the average price Neons are selling for, which means you should be able to do much better than TMV.
If I was looking for a set of wheels for a student at some college somewhere, where it was going to be parked a lot in questionable parking areas, getting dings and dents, loaned out to other students, doesn't cost a lot to insure, and after 4 years gets thrown away and replaced be a real car.......what price range would you target?
2-3K would be junk cars
10+K would be too expensive of a car to have sitting around in that environment
5-8K has a chance of being a decent car that doesn't break the bank.
I thought I made a strong case and did everything right-- we just couldn't agree. That happens.
Let me shed some insight into this particular dealer. I went through the online listings for each of the vehicles stickered close to the sticker of the Neon. There were seven in total. It was a mix of small cars, SUVs, and a truck. The SUVs and truck were all reasonably priced. The sticker was within 50 bucks of what Edmunds said I should pay, meaning that I could easily beat the suggested price with little negotiating. But the cars were an average of being overpriced by about a thousand dollars. All with the exception of one have been sitting there since May or June.
With your current interest level, and previous bargining, I don't think the guy is going to come down to your price if you show up again soon.
If you are willing to wait a month, and this thing is still there, and the weather in your area is getting colder, you will have a better shot at getting it for $4,200.....
Just my opinion.
Of course, they can't get rid of the trucks and SUVs with people freaking out about gas prices. If you're looking in that price range and your commute is light, I'd say buy one of those. The reason all the cars are marked up $1K or more is because people will pay for that "because of the gas savings". There was a comment about buying a new moped for $1500. Many people have done that, too "for the gas savings" - but if you work out the mileage to save the outlay on the purchase, it doesn't make sense. Not many folks bother to do that.
So I know for next time, how do I show I'm an "informed buyer" without doing what I did? I mean I went in there, let him make the first offer, gave him a price lower than I wanted to pay, and one by one as the situation dictated, laid out all the facts. Isn't that what a savvy buyer does?
Everyone has their own method. Here's mine - cue reminiscence of bobst here. You go in, find your car (you've already done your pricing homework), YOU (the customer) make the offer, they accept it or you leave. Why waste time letting them make an offer, etc. You already know what they want for the car, that's why there's a sticker on it. If the dealer makes the first offer, the sticker price will be it. Then you are going to waste your next two hours (and the salesperson's next two hours) trying to chip away at the price. After two hours, you'll both be frustrated, but the dealer has the much greater advantage (you're in their store, after all). Many customers get worn out and pay just to get it over with.
The bottom line is this: if you like that car so much, buy it for $4700 and drive it like you stole it! :P But seriously, if this is an '02 Neon that they bought from auction with over $100K miles on it, I'd stay away. There's a reason the original dealer (the one who took it in trade) didn't keep it. Good luck either way!
BTW, 12K/yr is not "low mileage", but I would say it's below usual. Consider number of people commuting 15-20 miles/day: 52weeks*5days*2*(15 to 20 miles) = 7,800 to 10,400 miles just for commuting. Add personal business and you get anywhere from 13K to 15K per year. I would expect luxury car of newer model years are expected to have mileage in 12K or less per year (those "cheap" leases), but non-lux older vintage would be expected higher (regular workhorse after two or three owners).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I would agree with the letting them make the first offer, and giving a price lower than you wanted to pay. But, I think once you get to the point of explaining why the car should be priced lower, you're just wasting your time. You only wanted to pay $4,200 for the Neon. So, I would have said "That's what I think the car is worth and is all I'm willing to pay, if something comes up in the next day or two where you can sell it for that, give me a call"... then walk out.
i>I thought I made a strong case and did everything right-- we just couldn't agree. That happens
I've always said a buyer should use whatever negotiation method they are most comfortable with. But, as you said, sometimes an agreement can't be made... certainly has happened to me on more than one occasion.
I'd go a bit further and say that there all kinds of cheap cars out there- and most of them are better drives then a Neon.
Even one with a "sporty" rear spoiler.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Everyone has their advice on what you could have done differently. All of that is ok, but realize it is all coming from different perspectives. Everyone has their own way of handling this kind of thing.
There is lots here that we don't know. We don't know everything that was said during your time with the salesman. You may have said something or done something that gave the salesman the impression that you were hot for the car. If that is the case, it is no big surprise he stuck to his guns on price. The salesman could have been a little put off by the education you gave him on how the car should have been priced. Might have ticked him off just enough for him to dig in and hold a hard line. These kind of things happen. It is just hard to tell if they happened here.
My advice, always be willing to walk away. Never fall in love with a car before you buy it, or at least if you do, don't show it. Personally I would make my first offer much closer to my target price, and be open to one bump to my target price. My offer is presented as what I am willing to pay, and I may share one reason why, but never multiple reasons why and most especially never any reason that disparages the dealer (such as it is too bad for them they paid too much for the car).
BTW - when researching value of a used car, post the details of the car here in the Real World Trade in Values thread. Knowing what similar cars are going for at auction is a good piece of info, and most likely more up to date than the pricing guides.
(Yoda speaking) " either do or do not do... there is no try." :surprise:
I'll take you back four and a half years, to a time when this young jipersnapper was just a novice on Edmunds. I was in the market for a Buick Regal.
The dealership had stickered a 1999 Buick Regal for $8,999 and put it on "sale" for $7,999. A very nice car, excellent condition, only 54k miles. After negotiating on the price a bit, I was able to get a price of $6,500, which was a bit under private party value. So, it can be done... is done all the time as a matter of fact. Pushing for dealer trade-in wouldn't be out of the question either. Used cars is where dealerships make all their money.
Edmunds has pricing for "Dealer Trade-In", "Private Party Sale", and "Dealer Retail". Dealerships buy at wholesale prices that are less than Edmunds "Dealer Trade -In". So if your dealership gave $3,000 Edmunds trade-in for a 2002 Neon, they would pay around $2,500 at auction. Say Edmunds Private Party price would be $4,500, and Dealer Retail would be around $6,000.
So, look at what a dealership pays for a car... and then what it tries to sell it for. You're looking at a 30%-40% mark-up... and on lower priced cars even 50%. I think it better to look at what a dealership pays for a car, then go from there, as opposed to what price they are listing a car at.
Any way, your experience sounds like one I had a few years ago at a Chrysler store. The car was priced thousands higher than NADA retail, the salesman frequently repeated that he had 30 years in the business and he claimed that all the books were bogus because his used cars were going up in value not down.
After all the dancing was over he offered dealer retail, I offered dealer wholesale and we met in the middle. I probably paid too much.
BTW, if you're in the market for a car with 100K miles for $4200 I can sell you the Chrysler I bought at that store. Just don't look up the TMV on it.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2018 430i Gran Coupe
...which is around Edmunds Private Party sell price. You offered dealer wholesale, and am assuming you weren't "laughed out of the building", as you ended up with the car. So, I think looking for a price between dealer trade-in value and private party would be a good strategy to save some money. You don't ask you don't get.
Right. For a car in this price range I may start around $500 over what I think the wholesale price of the vehicle would be. That should take care of profit and whatever reconditioning is done.. , which usually is not a whole lot on a $4,000 vehicle.
How do I know what the wholesale value of the car ought to be, or what the dealer probably paid? And even if I know these things, what good will they do me in negotiations? For example, if I had a good idea of what the dealer probably paid and I went in there and used that figure, then the salesman would have used his "we paid $5200" line. How do I counter something like that? I have no proof of what they paid. He could just say "your guess is wrong."
I did a lot of research on cars, and I thought the Neon was about the best value I could get. I'm sure that will make you guys laugh, but that it does shows that it shouldn't cost much money to buy. I want a fairly recent car (so the bank would agree to finance) that handles well and is at least fairly good on gas (i.e. economy class). With my budget, I really don't want to pay much more than this. You guys say there are lots of cars just as good out there: what are they? Thanks.
How about a used Corolla, Civic, Cavalier, Cobalt, Echo, Prizm, Metro, Elantra, Accent, Spectra, etc., etc.
For my money, I'd look for a used Elantra - you're likely to find one with lower mileage for a lower price. Have a mechanic check it out (on a lift - pay him or her for their time - it's worth it). The Elantra has a good history for reliability now, but still has a low resale value, so it can be had cheap. Some of these other cars (particularly Civic and Corolla) are great cars, but kind of pricey. Good luck!
Personally I wouldn't say anything about what they may or may not have paid for the car. I would simply concentrate on what you will pay for the car. What they paid is meaningless to you and the selling price of the car. There is no law that they have to make so much profit, or any for that matter.
Just research what the price to you should be and make offers based on that and what the car is worth to you. If they ask how you got it just say thats what your willing to pay. Don't fall into the trap of paying them their cost and a profit.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
On a couple occasions with car purchases, I have researched and made fair offers to dealers, and after negotiations they get to the point that they say they absolutely can not sell it at that price. I walked out and went to another dealer, who easily ended up beating the first dealers minimum deal price....by substantial margins.
I don't worry about it anymore, just move on to a different dealership, and a different vehicle if need be.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
You are not concerned with what this particular dealer paid for this particular car. Frankly you may never know what this dealer paid for the car. He could tell you anything. So don't think in terms of refuting what he is telling you. That is just an argument that most likely will go nowhere quick. Stick with what you know and what you are willing to do.
I agree with snakeweasel. It is not your concern if the dealer makes any profit, but it is also understood that if the dealer is making no profit then he is less likely to do the deal.
The guides like Edmunds TMV or KBB might get you in the ballpark, but they also might only get in the parking lot of the ballpark. Current auction prices on similar cars get you in the batter's box. None of this is about trying to figure out what the dealer paid for the car, but rather about trying to figure out what he is likely to get for the car. Auction prices are $W to $X, your max price is $Z, you offer $Y. Your offer is essentially a guaranteed amount for the dealer. Auctions or the next customer remain a gamble for the dealer. The dealer must decide, take the guaranteed amount or take the gamble. He may counter. You go back with $Z and tell him it is your highest and best offer. He is back to deciding. If he takes the offer, deal is done. If he decides to take the gamble, you thank him for his time, wish him well and walk away. No arguments, no trying to convince him he paid too much for the car, no trying to convince him your offer is the best he is likely to get (it also remains that he actually might get more from the next customer or at auction). It is just what each of you are willing to do. That might match, it might not. If it doesn't, move on.
The rest of your post leaves the impression with me that you were/are indeed hot for this particular car. As I said earlier, if the salesman got a whiff of this, it does not surprise me that he stuck to his guns on price. Young student, pretty limited budget, needs a cheap car, hot for this car is the kicker that convinces the salesman to not budge much. Did/do you have any other car under consideration?
BTW - was this a BHPH lot?
I know I’m late to this party and like you said ‘ you’ve gotten lots of advice’ from some knowledgeable folks on these Edmunds boards.
So, take the advice and buy what you want. You don’t have to explain how you got your numbers. They’re only going to be shot down by the salesman anyway. If that car can’t be bought (for whatever reason) at the price you must pay to stay within your budget you have to fall in love with another car. It’s that simple. Stop beating yourself up over this. It ain’t (as one of our posters has said before you got here) “rocket surgery”, you’re just buying a car.
I’m sure at your age it won’t be your last one and some day, by watching your budget now, you’ll be in a position a little later to buy exactly what you want and not be worried about a couple extra bucks.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I had some other cars in mind (obviously this is the one I wanted first or I wouldn't have negotiated), and I showed him the folder of papers on them I had. I don't feel I expressed any excitement about the car. I was careful to avoid that.
And yes, I had an older person with me, thanks.
Real World Trade-in Values
Post details of any used car in there and your location, and a dealer will tell you what similar cars are going for at auction. The post message screen has an outline of the info you need to provide.
I sure hope 'matt' can help you with this, cause I wasn't no good with Algebra either. However, you might still be in luck because one of our hosts is. Heck, I'm sure he can set up an equation that even a novice can follow.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The values of Y and Z has little to do with the values of W and X. Remember what they paid for the car has little to do with what they can sell the car for. What they can sell the car for is based on the market. If they paid 10 grand for a car and the market states that they can only sell it for 8K then they lose money. Hopefully they can sell more for profits and stay in business but there is no law that says that they have to make a profit.
Just find a fair price for the car and stick with it and never mind what they paid for it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Happens every day.
New cars are relatively easy to put a number on in comparison. It's easy to find invoice, holdback, incentives, etc. All a buyer has to do is figure out how motivated the store is to make a deal on new stock.
Used cars are more difficult (if not impossible) to find true dealer cost on. Is it a trade-in? Did the dealer over-allow on the trade to make a deal on the new car? How much reconditioning did the dealer have to do? Was it a simple wash and wax? Or something more in-depth? New brakes? Did they have to reupholster the seats to compensate for a cigarette burn hole? Replace a cracked windshield? Body work? Can it be certified?
Fact is, we don't know those variables. You can make some assumptions about the relative worth of a used car. Look here at Edmunds. Look at Black Book, Blue Book, Manheim. But, even those resources won't tell much about how much a dealer has in a used car.
I've seen some crazy prices on used cars.....thousands more than what I personally think it's worth. But, who knows? Somebody, somewhere may put a higher value on that used car over what I'd pay.
One thing I know for certain. Whenever I trade-in a car, I make certain that it looks the best I can make it look. Clean interior. A fresh "spritz" of Fabreeze in the interior (to mask the smell of that one french fry that dropped between the seats 2 years ago). Washed and waxed. All service records sitting on the seat in a folder.
I always make it a point to tell the Used Car SM that they can put it on the lot, as is, with little or no effort on reconditioning. While I will never get retail value on a trade. I will get more $$$ for it in the condition it's in, than I would if I drove it on the dealer's lot looking like "pigpen" was the primary driver.
Your examples are the exception rather than the rule. Sure dealerships will try to get as much as they can, but the trick for the buyer is to find the lowest price they are willing to sell at. That's why finding out what a dealership paid for a car would be extremely beneficial.
What they can sell the car for is based on the market
The "market" is an average. i.e The same car could be sold for $1,000 over market, or $1,000 under market value... depending on how well educated and informed the buyer is.
So, your "find a fair price for the car" strategy could end up meaning you paid $1,000 to $2,000 more than what you could have gotten the car for. It may be a "fair" price, but why pay more if you don't have to?
What has "fair" got to do with anything anyhow snakey? Either a dealer will sell you the car or he won't. You go up to a salesman and kick him in the nads, then run off with the keys to a new Lexus... that's not "fair". You say I'll give you $600 under dealer cost for that new Lexus and the dealership agrees, well the dealership won't care for zero profit, but he signed the papers too... it's certainly "fair".
I know we get some shoppers who just agonize over the fact that they don't know and can't find out what we have invested in a used car they are looking at. Sometimes, that are so brazen that they will actually ask!
Cleaning up your trade in makes a lot of sense but you won't believe the pig stys that people will trade in and expect top dollar for. I have taken in trades that were so filthy and smelled so bad inside I didn't even want to park them afterwards.
And, a lot of times the trade-ins that people honestly think are ion great shape are not as free of trouble as they think they are.
A recent example as a 2000 Toyota Sienna that I took in a couple of weeks ago. It was very clean inside and out with about 90,000 miles on it.
" Have you replaced the timing belt?" "Ah...don't think so."
" It's going to need a set of tires soon".." It will? they look pretty good to me".
Well, the tires weren't "bad" but they only had about 3/32's of tread remaining and we won't sell them like that.
We did the timing belt job including a new water pump and the other belts, we discovered a leaking power steering rack and a bad wheel bearing. It also needed nrw brakes and we replaced the tires. There were a few other things as well that ran the recon bill up to nearly 2500.00.
In the mind of the customer, the Sienna was in great condition and, for the most part, it was. This is pretty typical.
Well, that van was 9 years old. It's expected it would need a lot of reconditioning to sell on a dealers lot.
I mean come on, as an example, say you're looking at a 3 year old Lexus on a dealers lot, before negotiating the salesman asks you if you want to know how much they paid for it... what are you going to say, no, it doesn't matter?
I'm thinking mostly of cars for sale that range from 1 to 4, maybe 5 years old. I would think typically these cars would require much less reconditioning.
Remember it is about at least attempting to figure out what a dealer may get for the car. It is not about figuring out what a dealer has in the car. As others have pointed out, it is just way to hard to figure that out.
Think of it alphabetically, lowest to highest.
W to X = the range similar cars are currently going for at auction. To the dealer this should represent their low that they reasonably could get out of the car.
Z = the highest you are willing to pay for the car. This may indeed be what the sticker says, but my guess is it won't.
Y = somewhere between.
I would suggest that both Y and Z are higher than W to X. Your offer should be more attractive to the dealer than the lowest they may reasonably expect.
I survived algebra ok. I spent one week in a calculus class. When the professor started talking about imaginary numbers, I dropped the class. Real numbers give me enough of a headache. :sick:
Happens every day
Yep.
and that variable is the most difficult to figure out. For all any of us know, that may be the more common experience of the dealer we've been talking about. Maybe yellow Neons really are a hot item in that town.
Maybe, I'm just shopping at more reputable dealerships. The times I've looked at pre-owned, the dealership will always volunteer any reconditioning done. i.e "it's got new brake pads, two new front tires, and a new battery". I doubt they will mention if they have to pull out a couple big dents., But, telling a potential buyer all of the recently installed new parts on a nice looking car, would certainly help it sell faster. Now, you pull out a list as long as your whiskers, on what was replaced, then you've got the customer thinking the vehicle is a piece of junk.
So, you've got an auction price and the items that were reconditioned. Throw in a couple % points and you've narrowed the price down pretty close.
I am just doubtful that a dealer will volunteer that exact amount they have in the car. They might, but I am more interested in what the market is saying about the car when determining what I am willing to pay for the car.
I know what I consider "nice" in a used car. In general, I want one with no major mechanical needs, like the timing belt, or tires, or water/fuel pumps...no smoke coming out of the tailpipe, no slipping auto transmissions, no squealling brakes or mushy brake peddles, good tire tread, all equipment works. Most of those things are easy enough to see. Others, you have to put it on the rack to get a good idea.
Still....a quick peak underneath and under the hood, you can tell if oil is seeping out of the valve cover gasket (no matter how much shiny stuff the dealer details the engine bay with. You can see of there's oil splattered all over the underside. You can pull the dip stick to see of the oil is burnt, or the auto transmission fluid is brown instead of red. Do the belts look old and frayed? Or are they tight and in good condition. What color (and smell) is the radiator fluid?
But, if you drive enough cars, you can tell what their needs may be.
Cosmetics are little different. I don't expect a 5-6-7 year old car to be perfect cosmetically. But, overspray around the door jams, or in the trunk is a sure fire way to tell if there's been body work. Do the body panels line up? A quick knuckle knock all over the body will tell you if there's bondo where metal should be. Look to see if there are parts of the paint to tell if there's a different sheen from one part of the car to another. Do the shades match up from one body panel to the next?
15 minutes of acting like Columbo will tell you a world of information about a used car.
I don't know! If you look at the condition of Columbo's 1959 Peugeot 403 Cabriolet convertible he would be the last person I'd call in for advice.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
I have a slight problem with this statement. If you walk into a car dealership with the intention of "beating" the dealer you could end up walking away from a great deal just because he won't budge on his reasonable price. Perhaps it could have been better phrased, "a car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it."
If you go in knowing roughly how much you should pay for a car (knowing what car you want, and taking into consideration condition, miles, carfax reports, market, etc) then it should just be a matter of whether the dealer will be willing to part with the car for that price. If you're being reasonable with your expectations, this should be a 30 minute process max.
The long drawn out negotiations are the ones where the buyer has no idea what car they want or how much they should pay for it, and the dealer has had the car for a while and is already bottomed out on price. For example, if a dealer buys a car for $12k and it's only worth $10k, are you going to pay $14k? No, of course not. But think of it on the flip side for a second. If the dealer manages to steal one somehow for $5k and the car's worth $15k do you really think he's going to sell it to you for $6k? No way, you'll pay close to market value.
This is why I say, forget about dealer profits, forget about hammering him down to his "best price", just go in knowing a rough figure, a max number that you'll pay, and if it works, it works. If not, don't sit there trying to talk him into it for 3 hours. It won't work and you'll just leave thinking he was trying to cheat you, when in reality you have no idea what the situation was. There's no reason to get hostile unless you are actually treated unfairly... simply refusing to move on price is not treating you unfairly.
Gee Isell, when did you go all soft and squishy on me? You know that the average trade-in owner knows EXACTLY what is wrong with his car. That's why he's trying to dump it off on you. He figures you will fix it up and pawn it off on some other sucker before it blows up. How many times has a poster said something like "The tranny was starting to slip so I brought it over to Carmax"?
If dealers did half the things that private owners do when trying to get rid of their klunker, they'd be in jail.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Here's a story I've told here before.
One dark and rainy night years ago, I had a nice middle aged couple that were trading in a Mazda MPV minivan. It was immaculate inside and out and it ran very well. But is was a Mazda minivan and these really don't sell well either new or as used cars.
We made an offer and they were not happy with it. Out came the file folder waith stacks of internet printouts. Of course, they rated their car to be in excellent condition! They went on and on about how well they had maintained it etc,
It was a cold night but the A/C didn't seem to be getting very cold. They informed me that they were suer it "just needed a charge" Yeah, right.
In order to make the deal, we paid more than we wanted for the Mazda but we did the deal.
The next morning, one of our lot attendants went to move the MAzda and it wouldn't go into gear! After ideling in drive for five minutes or so, it finally warmed up and the transmission started working, This is called Morning Sickness and it isn't good!
So we ran it over to the Mazda dealer to have them take a look at it,
They inputted the car's VIN numbner into their system and laughed. " I thought that car looked familiar!"
Then the printed a copy of a work order they ahd done the week before...
" Customer stated transmission won't engage w\hen car is cold"
Problem determined - Needs rebuilt transmission - 3500.00!
" Customer states A/C blowing hot"
Problem determined - Needs compressor and a receiver/ dryer - 1300.00
Nice, huh?
So true. People think that car dealers are cheats and liars so they assume it's ok to cheat and lie to us. Nowadays with the federal laws protecting the customer, it's all but impossible to cheat or lie to a customer anymore, but there's nothing protecting the dealers from getting screwed over.
How can that be? I didn't give any examples.
Sure dealerships will try to get as much as they can, but the trick for the buyer is to find the lowest price they are willing to sell at.
No the trick is for the buyer to get it at a reasonable price. What if the sellers lowest price is unreasonable? If thats the case the car will sit on the lot until the dealership wises up and lowers the price.
My whole point is that it matters little what the dealer paid for the car. What matters is what the fair market price is.
The "market" is an average. i.e The same car could be sold for $1,000 over market, or $1,000 under market value... depending on how well educated and informed the buyer is.
True the market is an average and you should do your research and find out what it is and shoot for that or maybe even less.
What has "fair" got to do with anything anyhow snakey?
You seem to be misinterrepting the term "fair". In this case it is what the market deems a price would or should be.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Exactly... all are pieces of the puzzle in trying to determine what to pay for a pre-owned car, and getting a good price. To me, another big piece of the puzzle would be the knowing what the dealership paid for a car. I haven't been advocating buying solely on that one big piece, but all the variables some of you have mentioned, as well that big piece.
If the dealer manages to steal one somehow for $5k and the car's worth $15k do you really think he's going to sell it to you for $6k?
Like I told snakey, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. The vast majority of the time you will not have a case like you described. So, you gotta go with what you believe the norm to be. If it doesn't work out, you move on to the next guy.
I like to find a range of prices when I am buying pre-ownd. I'll start with the lowest price I think a dealership will accept, and then work up to the most I am willing to pay, which would still be a good deal.
Since when have you become one with the darkside? I'm moving your "reprogramming" session up to next Tuesday.... $50 fee for cancellation without 24 hour notice.
I can't say I've personally dealt with a dealership who has tried to rip me off. I've had a few of them play "tricks"on me. Some dealerships, and customers, are pretty good at walking that line between fraud and creative marketing.
"15 minutes of acting like Columbo will tell you a world of information about a used car. "
"I don't know! If you look at the condition of Columbo's 1959 Peugeot 403 Cabriolet convertible he would be the last person I'd call in for advice."
Agreed on Columbo's slovenliness. As well as the condition of his classic car. But one doesn't call in Columbo for advice, one calls in Columbo for negotiation. Not a grinder per se but one whose behavior and demeanor are annoying enough that any salesman would gladly take a minor commission or cost just to be able to flee the lot.
tidester : This 2003 Neon has 89,000 miles and is priced at $4,300.
Columbo : There is a mark here on the carpet, and a cloth beside it. Geez that’s odd.
tidester : What’s odd about it?
Columbo : Well it looks as if that someone has knocked a red soda over or something similar, and it looks like the victim was cleaning it up just before he died.
Moi : OMG, someone died in this vehicle ?
tidester : How do you know he was cleaning it up just before he died? He may have been doing it earlier.
Columbo : But if he’d been doing it earlier he’d have finished scrubbing the carpet and taken the cloth with him.
tidester : So he had just been scrubbing the carpet. What does that prove?
Columbo : May be nothing, but it certainly makes the possibility of deliberate suicide less likely. I mean why bother to clean up the mess at all if you are about to kill yourself?
Moi : Omg someone committed suicide in this car? I'm leaving.
tidester : $ 3,250 ? And as your friend noted, he didn't commit suicide he was just killed in the car. Wait! $2,950?