Nissan releases a brand new car in 2008 called the Rouge? What transmission choices does it come with? Just took a look and this new vehicle will come with a CVT only. Is this a trend for Nissan? And if it is for Nissan wouldn't it be with the approval of Renault?
I've been looking around for about a month now trying to decide if I'm ready for a new car. I have an '06 Mazda3 5-door with manual transmission that I bought back in 12/05. I love the car, but I always get the 2-year-itch.
The cars that I've been looking at are the '07 Honda Accord, '07 Mazda6 and '08 Ford Fusion. They're all available with manual transmission (on paper at least) but they're almost non-existent on dealer lots. I expected the Mazda6 manual to be a fairly easy find, but the Accord is the only one I've found in any signficant numbers. The only manual Fusions I've found are base S models with no options....not what I'm looking for! UGH!
What really ticks me off is the way the dealers look at me when I insist that I want a manual. Then again, a lot of people are surprised when they ride in my car for the first time and realize I have a manual. I'm 32 and apparently only a handful of people younger than me can even drive a manual transmission.
Great at deterring car thieves and carjackings, though.
I wouldn't look at Nissan for much guidance as to what the market wants.
They took the Nissan Maxima from being the premier Japanese sport/luxury sedan from the 1990's and bloated it up, replaced the manual transmission with a rubber band CVT, and what do they have to show for it? The Maxima's sales in 2007 are running about 80% below 1997. And if you think the Altima somehow filled that void, name 5 successful professionals who could very easily afford a 5 series or E-class that bought an Altima instead. That represented the friends and associates that recommended the Maxima to me in 1995. The plasticky, low budget Altima would barely get a second look from an aspiring paralegal, let alone a single look from a senior attorney or law firm partner.
And in spite of trying to sell the 350Z as the re-birth of the original Datsun 240Z, Nissan managed to bloat it up to weighing 400 lbs more than that 1995 Maxima of mine. If it wasn't for the Infiniti G series, Nissan would be completely off the radar screen of serious enthusiasts. And possibly heading towards bankruptcy.
Nissan is coming off their worst financial performance in nearly two decades for fiscal year 2006, and heading towards a possibly worse year in 2007. With respect to the bloated CVT Maxima, they snatched defeat our of the jaws of victory and pissed away decades of brand equity practically overnight. If you want to use them as an example of anything, turn their missteps into a Harvard Business School case study on market ineptitude.
I may not be able to predict the future of the manual transmission, but I can assure you no market savvy business professional wakes up in the morning wanting his compnay to be more like Nissan.
As i believe the ongoing Chevy cobalt is an Opel model and the ISUZU Bighorn= Opel Monterey , Isuzu Rodeo= Opel Frontera (does anybody know how it turned to Honda Passport)
About the manuals right at this moment i don't see any kinda shiftig mechanism that is better than stick , but the MitSubishi is coming up with the clutchless tranny in the EVO does anybody know how it works
As i believe the ongoing Chevy cobalt is an Opel model and the ISUZU Bighorn= Opel Monterey , Isuzu Rodeo= Opel Frontera (does anybody know how it turned to Honda Passport)
IIRC the Cobalt does ride on an Opel platform, can't recall if it's an Astra or Vectra but I think it'd be a stretch to call it a rebadged Opel.
I think you have the Isuzu-Opel thing backwards, the Monterey, Frontera etc are Isuzus rebadged for the Euro market. They turned the Rodeo into a Honda simply by changing the badges.
I'm wondering about the mindset between the different sides of the ocean. An automotive writer I had written to compliment told me only a couple weeks ago that if I were looking to drive in a lot of traffic to avoid getting a manual shift car, that it wasn't worth wearing my leg out! But I'm fairly confident that Europe has very large, urban cities and therefore heavy traffic, as well. London, England is a city of 12 million people, larger than Houston, Texas. Yet, the manual shift is the norm for all but the very rich. Why don't THEY mind driving a manual shift in traffic? Surely they have gridlock, as well. What can the difference be?
Is it that in the American (or North American) culture we have come to expect to not have to work very hard to get anywhere?
Ugh... Every one that I've driven is terrible. I have a Class B CDL (licensed for everything but tractor-trailers), and given a choice, I'll take a manual truck every time.
I think most commercial drivers feel the same way, which is why all those manual trucks are still out there.
In Europe and England specifically there are incentives to drive a manual. They even have a different license for manual and Automatics. Fuel has always been at a premium there and so maximum fuel mileage has been a desire for a very long time. With small engines and small cars manuals have been a logical choice for a long time. Now however CVT have started to show up even in England so who knows what will happen even there. But as one poster said earlier when they come to the US for vacation with our fuel prices they most often opt for a bigger vehicle and a automatic. Why not, it is a great deal. Yes Americans on a whole equate ease of use with new and improved. Take any item we buy and make it easier to use and more than likely it will sell. You are partially correct I believe about North American culture. But it is more like no one wants to have to work to get to work. I think most believe commuting is not productive labor so it should be as painless as possible. It is like a hand cranked Ice Cream churn or an electric one. Both will make Ice Cream and the hand cranked one might seem more satisfying but in the end you still have ice cream and you can watch football or play games while the electric one is working. It has been a long time since I have seen a hand cranked ice cream churn.
Habitat, I am not using Nissan as a example of business prowess but simply showing what their market research must be telling them about American customer preferences. I was also responding to someone saying it was more likely that the CVT would replace the traditional automatic rather than a manual and Nissan has simply decided to drop the manual in at least three vehicles over the last few years. I also noticed the Nissan Rogue has a hands free cell phone option on the wheel so it shows what their research people must feel about the chances of cell phones in cars being banned in the near future.
Also of note are the cautionary warnings for towing with the Murano with the CVT. Dealers are cautioning over 1500lbs even though the vehicle is rated for like 3500. Apparently those little rubber bands heat up if they have to slip too much.
You would think they could adjust tension on the fly, it being a CVT and all, and since for high horsepower or towing applications with a manual, they just get a clutch with more clamping force.
Yes, I realize most of the time they don't use the clutch, but they are shifting a lot more than in a car, and they have to match revs due to no synchros. Yet, they are on the cell phone, and also steering these monsters with only inches to spare in many cases. I just found it interesting that people were blaming the cell phone (and other things) for the manual's decreasing popularity, while truckers seem to be on it all the time!
Yes, I know what you mean. It would be just as easy to blame Starbucks or fast food. I think it is simple ease of use. Second nature or not just describe a few miles of traffic in a manual step by step and it is easy to see how much simpler life is with an automatic. People don't care how complicated their machines need to be as long as their effort level decreases. Look at the TV remote, was it that hard to turn a dial? No but it is a lot easier to use a remote. I think people in America simply like things that are easy to use and learn and manuals don't fit that description.
There's quite a few "churns" if you know where to look: eBay, for example. Homemade ice cream doesn't taste better because of the cranking mechanism, but because homemade ice cream doesn't have corn syrup, xanthan gum, and carrageenan, and as was the case with my grandmother's, used unpasteurized milk straight from the cow. And it didn't hurt that if you were the cranker, you got first taste!
But, I think I understood what you were trying to say! Maybe the new green movement will help people to see what kind of price has been paid for the "leisure ethic".
Also, saying "no one wants to have to work to get to work" is just about synonymous to "we have come to expect to not have to work very hard to get anywhere", isn't it?
I think we've reached the same conclusion with different words. Good discussion, thanks!
well yes we may have to pay. However the green movement may not be the salvation of the manual. In the US the green movement may be the enemy to manuals. Because manual drivers tend to over shift (shift late) rather than under shift (shift early) manuals aren't considered as green as small automatics. It is the old nut behind the wheel argument. Automatics can be programed to test cleaner and so be rated cleaner on the green vehicle guide. Just read many of the posts in this forum and you will easily see the average manual driver is more interested in driving for fun that they are of driving for economy.
But yes we see the results even if we came from different directions.
I drove an older Ford F700 Uhaul in the mid-80's when I Moved from NY to Philly. That was a stick, and was no problem.
I would be curious to drive a newer model with a manual that was in good shape, without a shot clutch!
I did some more looking today at the Ryder place (I had some time to kill) and the trucks that were assigned to companies (paineted up and everything) were all sticks, other than 1 AT International. I guess they just have ATs for the daily rental crowd.
I also peeked into the cab of a tractor unit. That one had a 16 speed, with a very interesting pattern diagram on the dash! Looked to be about the same cab as the straight frame trucks, just with the fancy shifter.
Probably explains the jump from 26,000 gvwr to 65,000!
Habitat, I am not using Nissan as a example of business prowess but simply showing what their market research must be telling them about American customer preferences. I was also responding to someone saying it was more likely that the CVT would replace the traditional automatic rather than a manual and Nissan has simply decided to drop the manual in at least three vehicles over the last few years.
Well, their market research is obviously WRONG, at least with respect to the Maxima. Dropping a manual transmission wasn't their only misstep there - the car also ballooned up in weight and size, further eviscerating it of any sportiness.
Which supports another point I've made in the past. Many people here cite that only 30-20-10% of BMW 3-series, 5-series, Acura TL's former Nissan Maximas, etc, etc are sold with a manual transmission. And that must mean that it really doesn't have much of a futre.
But look, the 3-series is the class leader among enthusiasts which has a huge halo effect among even the 3 pedal challenged. When Acura redesigned the TL in 2004 and added a 6-speed manual option, only about 10% of buyers went for the 6-speed, but total model sales went up by a factor of 200%+. Nissan drops the manual transmission that only accounted for 5-10% of Maxima sales, and total sales have dropped 80%.
The point is that serious enthusiasts prefer manuals and what serious enthusiasts prefer as cars helps sell them to the rest of the general public. That general public might be willing to buy the car with a one speed CVT, but if the enthusiasts aren't, they will never enjoy a potential halo effect. Exceptionally good alternatives, like Ferrari's $10,000+ F1 option, can be acceptable to some/many enthusiasts. But BMW's SMG has failed, and VW/Audi's DSG is questionable (hard to separate the DSG from Audi's obesity problem). Porsche's Tiptronic tries hard, but still no serious enthusiast buys one (and resla values of 911 Turbos show it to have a NEGATIVE value) A rubber band CVT - doesn't have a prayer in the "sport" world.
Can you sell generic Camrys or Buick like Avalons without offering a manual transmission option? Absolutely. But for any cars that intend to include "sport" in their name, description or sales brochures, a short throw 6-speed manual with a clutch pedal is still the KING. And if Nissan were ever stupid enough to conclude that, since only 20% of "G" sales are manual transmissions that they can stick a rubber band in that car instead, you really will see them in a race with GM to bankruptcy court.
i've read that 20 years ago the percentage of new cars in USA with manual trans was about 10%. And today it's 10%? That does not not consistent with manual transmission cars becoming unavailable in USA. However I think the Boa-z has constricted on a reason that manual trans cars may become unavailable: emissions/EPA/CARB.
I have sold a ton of TLs used and the six speed equipped ones go so fast it makes your head spin.
Every automatic one we have ever gotten sits on the lot for a month or more. Every six speed TL lasts two weeks or less. Profit margin on the Six speeds is always higher as well.
Having a lot of experience in this area, I agree that, while manuals are a small percentage of the overall market, it is a viable niche.
People who want one will pay for it, and it is often easier to sell one, since there are often people out looking for a stick, so when one pops up, it gets snagged.
I have never really had a problem selling one either. Probably get less calls, but you get peple that are serious about buying.
You have convinced me of the viability of manuals in the niche market. However if you read many posts from other forums it becomes clear that enthusiasts are a niche themselves and pieces of that niche would convert if performance were included in the mix. Many straight line enthusiasts would drop the dog leg for a sequencial shifter if for no other reason than it is faster. Enthusiast means different things to different people.
However Toyota has seen fit to move towards the Automatic non sporting vehicle and I don't see them headed towards Bankruptcy court. And from reading some of the financial forecasts for BMW I am not sure they are in great shape for the long term future. One European forecast was talking about BMW suffering from the Boiling Frog syndrome. Not that it had anything to do with manuals.
In the US I believe the problem will come from the EPA and CARB. They want the manufacturer to be responsible for all the emissions their cars produce and manuals have a non programmable link called the driver. In that case the sporting enthusiasts may be the manuals own worst enemy.
Still as we are getting more and more black boxes in our vehicles maybe they will solve the shifting problem caused by slight over reving between shifts and downshifting. Sports cars may always have manuals with a dog leg but the sport sedan and sport wagon are fast becoming just words much as they did when they put the word sport on a SUV.
Nissan's sales are "G" sales to get a better idea if 20% of their sales of same could go manual trannied, eh? They may feel like they can stick a rubber band for tranny in for the other 80% of "G-car" sales because that percentage(total "G" car sales) of their overall sales is probably not large overall, and they do such a volume of "everyday" cars in which people want automatics that they will do just fine producing them that way.
All the while while this "shift" continues away from stick shift sales.
London, England is a city of 12 million people, larger than Houston, Texas. Yet, the manual shift is the norm for all but the very rich. Why don't THEY mind driving a manual shift in traffic? Surely they have gridlock, as well. What can the difference be?
Maybe they do mind, but feel they have to stay with a manual for financial reasons.
You know, if the smallest emgine available on my mazda6 was what it is over there and if I felt I had to go with the most efficient engine, due to $6 per gallon gas, I surely would have taken a manual.
I read your post twice and in the words of the Geico caveman, all I can say is "what???" :confuse:
Try rewriting your post after your morning cup of java and articulating your point, whatever it was, in English.
Mine was that Nissan has gone from being applauded for their financial turnaround several years ago to now being in precarious financial shape and losing some significant brand loyalty (Maxima) in the past few years.
so what? Nissan's Maxima was and just never does seem to make up my cup of tea. My comments on the auto tranny vs. manual tranny vs. CVT are simply that Nissan will cater to the masses on that issue and let manual tranny fans drift in the wind. They're not gonna take any bold 6-speed steps of any kind especially for a hideous rig like the Maxima.
Time to throw in the towel on that rig and concentrate on real Nissan cars. The gene pool that can drive a stick is sadly vanishing right before our steering wheels and I'll bet Nissan realizes that.
However if you read many posts from other forums it becomes clear that enthusiasts are a niche themselves and pieces of that niche would convert if performance were included in the mix. Many straight line enthusiasts would drop the dog leg for a sequencial shifter if for no other reason than it is faster.
I can agree that enthusiasts themselves are a "niche". But the car models they prefer to drive end up being bought by a lot of others that may not be hard core enthusiasts, but still like a sporting drive. And what the enthusiasts prefer tend to get the most free press and publicity - whether in road tests in auto magazines to reviews on MSNBC and the Wall Street Journal.
As for "straight line" enthusiasts, you are going to have a much tougher time convincing me that the manual transmission gives up anything to these absurd "launch control" slushbox or SMG automatics. If you have ever actually driven a high performance automatic and manual back to back, name one that is actually quicker in auto form in the real world. Even the world class Ferrari SMG gives up a few tenths in straight line performance to the "dog leg" manual. And a few more around Nurburgring. My old 60 horsepower Datsun B210 GX can beat a 911 Turbo to 60 mph if you add the 10-12 seconds of "launch assist" prep you have to go through to spool up the turbos before that 3.4 second 0-60 run. I'll take the 3.7 seconds in the 6-speed that is instantaneously available whenever I want it.
Lastly, you know how I feel about the EPA and the supid [non-permissible content removed] politics around the whole "green" issue. If, in their infinite stupidity, they can claim a manual transmission in my 26+ mph highway 911S and 30+mpg highway TL 6-speed add to global warming, while the average soccer mom drives a 6,000 lb Suburban at 13 mpg to the grocery store to pick up a gallon of milk, heaven help us all. On the other hand, if the EPA outlawed the automatic transmission, you'd surely save the world by putting all of those dog leg challenged drivers on the sidelines. Or, just make SUV's pay the same gas guzzler tax that every passenger car of similar ineeficiency pays. Lots of ways to save the world, my friend, but manual transmissions are a stupid/silly distraction in that battle.
Well that cup of Java made you clearer, but not particularly insightful, IMO. Read slowly. Nissan had its worst financial performance in two decades in 2006. Do you think that's a good thing? Do you think it's a good thing that their former flagship, the Maxima, a model that in the 1990's recieved numerous accolades (mulitple Car of the Year Awards and 8-10 time winner of Wards Best Engines) is now a complete sales flop?
If the 4th generation Maxima, wasn't your cup of tea, that's fine. But it did outsell the BMW 3-series from 1995 to 1999 and that was the car it was generally pitted against in the road tests and press reviews. In 1995, Car and Driver proclaimed it the best of both worlds: fun to drive as a 3 series with the room of a 5 series. What, pray tell, are you comparing Nissan's current line-up of "real cars" to? Kias? No thanks.
has been a mess for many years now. But when Ghosn took control, he "Toyota-fied" the company in an attempt to boost sales volume and profitability. That's the real culprit for the demise of the Maxima, which is now just another boring large sedan. Having only a CVT available, and those IDIOTIC TV ads where they actually play up the "shiftless acceleration" as a selling point, is ridiculous. This generation will be the last Maxima, I bet.
Yet I will concede one to boaz: Altima sales are way up for the new model, even though the only available automatic now is that crappy CVT. Maybe they are selling more 6-speeds, and THAT is responsible for the sales upswing?! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
that's just it...one sales pitch for CVT's are that they "shift" or "switch" or "skip" or whatever you might want to say or think so fast that you can't even hear the torque catch. I mean, "blip" and that car simply grabs that gusto at the wheels and picks up and moves.
I am interested in a Kia again, a Cee'd introduced to Europe and sold as a 1.6L diesel. 5-speed transmission and Peter Schreyer(formerly of Audi, he designed the TT amongst several others)body design. Beat out a Fiat and a Toyota Auris in a German mag's early comparo.
Nissan suffers from what Subaru suffers from....etch-a-sketch body designing. They're hideous. Even my '99 Kia Sephia had more subtle brainpower bodydesign goodness going on than any year of Nissan Maxima's. But they're different sizes of cars, I know that. Think about what I said though. The Turbo Legacy 4-door starts looking better, I'll give them that much. Lazy body design skills don't work with this padre.
While niche vehicles for enthusiasts may or may not be the manuals salvation it is going to take an effort by north American consumers to keep them in the mainstream. And there is the problem in my opinion. People don't have to do anything for their cars to become more automated. But consumers will have to do something to stop the slide away from manuals in our everyday vehicles. Parents will have to teach their children to drive manuals because on a whole our government doesn't through our schools.
People simply see driving as another chore that has to be done and the easier the better. The manufacturers as a whole are only selling a product and if the consumer doesn't want to think about what they are driving that are not in the business to disagree with them. If the consumer decides it is a good idea to drink coffee while driving you get cup holders. It is just hard to imagine the American consumer doing anything that will advance the cause of the manual in the commuter car in the future. Slowly but surely we seem to be giving over control of out cars to the computer. After 2010 the computer will be in charge of our skid control. They are already working on a cruise control that will automatically slow down if you get too close to the vehicle in front of you. And why are they doing this, so the consumer won't have to do anything. In North America that is just the way the consumer likes it.
Unfortunately, I believe that your view of the American consumer is accurate. He/she seeks to optimize slothfulness and accommodate ever increasing body mass while exerting a minimum of effort. The manual transmission is but one control he will avoid if given the opportunity. There is even an ongoing design competition to develop ROBOT cars that require no driver intervention (or presence for that matter). Imagine we may one day be able to send our camera equipped robot vehicle off on a drive through the countryside while we park our fat asses on the couch and view the country roads on our enormous LCD TV while guzzling beer, needing only to use the remote control (as little as possible, of course, lest we dare burn a calorie)
Imagine we may one day be able to send our camera equipped robot vehicle off on a drive through the countryside while we park our fat asses on the couch and view the country roads on our enormous LCD TV...
Are you implying that taking my manual transmission vehicle off on a drive through the countryside with my fat [non-permissible content removed] in the driver's seat and viewing the country roads through your windows is significantly different from sitting on the couch or taking the drive in an automatic (in terms of physical exertion)?
It is just too easy to fall into the trap of letting technology do things for you. The remote control was only one example. Many of the government buildings and some of the private ones in our area have installed motion detectors in all of their rest rooms so people won't have to remember to turn on the lights. We are told it is to save energy but it truth it is because people simply won't turn the lights off themselves. The sinks dispense water with an electric eye and even the towels are dispensed automatically. Why does this work? It works because the people don't have to do anything. Memos to turn out lights require the people to remember to turn off the lights and they won't. So it has been discovered it is easier to do things for the consumer.
There are times I will admit it is just too easy to let our machines do the work for us no matter how little that work might seem. I bought a PDA Cell Phone to replace my PDA that I have had for three or four years. When I got the PDA I simply tossed out every day planner I ever had and put all my appointments in the PDA. The slight difference between the day planner and the PDA is that once I have entered the information I don't need to think about it any more because the device will remind me of the appointment. with the phone it reminds me of the appointment. It reminds me of Birthdays, anaversuries, and keeps track of all my phone numbers. It even updates my computer with the information. And with speed dial I don't even have to remember my most often called phone numbers. It wasn't always that way but I just sort of slipped into it because I don't have to do anything to use the device anymore. I am not saying this happens to everyone but it is easy to see the mindset that allows it to happen.
Here we disagree. I also have a PDA-phone but not because it is a labor saver. Rather, it allows me access to more information more often and is much less cumbersome than carrying (and interconnecting) multiple devices. If anything, I perform more tasks because of it than I might otherwise, just as a manual transmission allows me to do things than I would not (or could not) do in an automatic vehicle (to pay due homage to the topic )
After 2010 the computer will be in charge of our skid control. They are already working on a cruise control that will automatically slow down if you get too close to the vehicle in front of you. And why are they doing this, so the consumer won't have to do anything. In North America that is just the way the consumer likes it.
I even heard that somebody is coming up with a "navigation system" to make maps obsolete! :surprise: :surprise:
Seriously, I know we've had this conversation before, and I do get your point (without completely agreeing with it), but I have to repeat my question - where have you been over the past decade???
BMW and Mercedes has stability control systems in many of their models at least 7-10 years ago. That's certainly not something new. "Adaptive cruise control" has been out for at least 3-4 years. And, by the way, skid control in BMW's, Mercedes and Audis hasn't changed the transmission preference in Europe during that time.
As for parents teaching their kids how to drive a stick, I don't think that's anything new either. I'm afraid to admit it, but I went through driver's education in way back in 1973 - and it was all automatics back then. My first new car was in 1978, and it took a friendly Mazda dealer about 10 minutes to teach me enough to get by on a manual. Too bad for him that I then bought a Datsun.
What I will agree with you on is that more people may see driving as a "chore" today, thanks to more urbanization and congestion, and just plain apathy. When I got my first car, it was "fun" to drive a manual, even if it went from 0-60 in about a half hour (the automatic would have taken a full hour). Back then, I also spent a lot of my leisure time "rowing" a canoe in Lake Erie. Now, unfortunately, it seems that a lot of young people are techno gadgeted to death and are so lazy and apathetic that they can't even write an e-mail in real words, full sentences and with proper grammer. So it's little wonder that they don't drive a stick where you actually have to do something with your left foot. Knock on wood, that doesn't describe my kids, and I intend to do my best to keep it that way.
P.S. Parents aren't much better. More families went to Disney World on vacation last year than all of our National Parks. Talk about lazy fat asses!! :sick:
I only mentioned the skid control or correction because after 2010 it will be mandated on all new cars. Once it is mandated and implemented they will be no off switch even on sports cars.
It is the very idea daysaler was talking about. The consumer had to learn proper brake modulating techniques and so they came out with ABS so the driver didn't have to do anything but step on the pedal. Skid or stability control will automatically slow you down in a corner. In fact many of the sports cars already produced will not allow you to heal and toe through a corner because the touch of the break pedal will cut power to the engine.
What I was trying to point out was that to please the average consumer you simply have to make a vehicle that gets them from point A to point B without much imput from them. That and a cup holder with a drive through Starbucks.
But I agree there is something we can do for ourselves. My wife and I plan of trying to visit some of our national parks starting this spring. We plan on spending about three months a year just driving around this country of ours. We have never been to Yellowstone or Mount Rushmore. That is something we plan on correcting.
Once it is mandated and implemented they will be no off switch even on sports cars.
That's not my understanding. I believe a 'defeat" button is still allowed, so long as it has an automatic override in the event of severe loss of directional control.
Skid or stability control will automatically slow you down in a corner. In fact many of the sports cars already produced will not allow you to heal and toe through a corner because the touch of the break pedal will cut power to the engine.
Again, that's not my understanding and that's certainly not the case with respect to Porsche, one of the pioneers in stability control systems. You can defeat the system with a dash mounted switch which will allow you to do just about anything a sane person (or slightly insane one) would want. If the car severely loses directional tracking (i.e. spin), the system will override the defeat and kick back in.
Fact is, I've now put just under 17,000 miles on my 2005 911S and have never once felt that ABS or stability control restricted my driving enjoyment. The couple of times it has kicked in, I deserved it (a little to enthusiastic of a turn on rain slicked roads, etc.). But, I wouldn't trade any of those miles for a Tiptronic automatic transmission.
Maybe not but neither system was designed with you in mind. They designed them despite your driving abilities and despite our needs they will be adding Stability control. Did you ask for stability control? Do you think everyone needs it? Because it is the governments idea to make our vehicles smarter than we are, in their opinion. For years I refused to get ABS unless I absolutely had to. I don't like the feel nor the sound it makes when working correctly. Yet today both my vehicles have ABS as a Standard feature, with no switch mind you. No one cared if I knew how to modulate my brakes.
It isn't the idea that ABS may or may not be a good thing. It is that slowly but surely they are standard on more and more cars so you don't have the choice of getting them or not. Now after years of driving cars without ABS what will my natural training tell me to do when I have to smash on the brakes in an emergency?
That is of course off subject but still designing a vehicle so the driver has as little input as possible seems to be a national trend and it seems to be supported by the government and the Greenies.
I guess we are just at the opposite ends of the spectrum on the issue of ABS as a safety feature vs. a manual transmission as a preference.
I bought my 1995 Maxima SE 5-speed manual with exactly one option on the car - ABS brakes. That was the only option I could afford at the time ($995 in 1995) - no sunroof, no leather, no Bose stereo, no power seats or any other luxury extras. Less than six months after I bought the Maxima, on a cold rainy night on the DC Beltway, a tractor trailer in the right lane lost control and started sliding into my center lane. I was able to avoid an accident by slamming my brakes, holding a perfectly straight line, downshifting and accelerating past on the right side. The whole scene was a blur, but the car to my left also slammed his brakes, went into a skid/spin and hit the truck. The passenger was killed, the driver critically injured. I was called in to testify at the vehicluar manslaughter trial of the truck driver and, from the testimony of other witnesses, it was pretty clear that ABS saved my life.
If you claim that you could have modulated your brakes ten times a second on a rain slick road and maintained directional control as effectively as an ABS system, then frankly, I think you are in a serious state of fantasy.
Stability control systems vary greatly. Lexus' system in the IS350 was resoundly criticized for being an overly intrusive electronic nanny. The system in my Acura TL is O.K.. The one in my 911 is perfect, given that it has 3 settings: normal, sport and off. And, by the way, the GT3, with its incredible track capabilities, has both ABS and the exact same PSM (Porsche Stability Management) systems as found in my everyday 911. So clearly, Porsche engineers and professional drivers are not so paranoid as you that their abilities are somehow being compromised. What's the message there?
P.S. That same GT3? Not available with a Tiptronic. For good reason.
“The pool of drivers available for the medium-duty segment simply don't learn how to shift gears growing up anymore,” he explains. Consequently, transmissions must be easier to use, more robust and provide better fuel economy."
I agree we see things differently. It is simply you see no problem with the government or the manufacturers automating the way I learned to drive. Front wheel planted in the direction I would like to go rear wheels hanging out in a slight drift accomplished with one foot on the brake and gas at the same time. Yet they would never do that with your preference and manual transmission because you personally would be effected? If the years of training on proper braking isn't necessary for me I must wonder how much more necessary shifting for myself is when a computer can do it quicker? You were talking feel and preference and that option wasn't given to those of us that aren't big fans of computerized cornering. even if the engineers tell us it is better for us. Car and driver hated it in the Subaru by the way.
I can see your point if the engineers feel they can provide a system that is better at cornering and stopping than me. That is exactly what they are trying to do with a DSG and shifting. Does it feel better? Not to you but but they are telling us it shifts faster than a human can.
By the way, when we didn't have ABS we didn't need to pulse our brakes ten times a second, we only applied enough pressure to stop the car and if it started to slide we backed off ever so slightly, it was a feel thing, much like some feel the clutch. But then the rational was, people were too lazy to learn proper braking techniques. Same rational I guess for stability control.
Enthusiasts may or may not go down fighting over a dog leg verses a computerized clutch. Maybe all they have to do is say, it is safer to keep both hands on the wheel or the engineers determined professional drivers performed better without a dog leg.
The real issue is I don't see many professional drivers even in Porsches on the street. So it still comes back to niche vehicles and a determined few that are searching for tradition. The real threat to manuals is that people simply don't care enough and aren't interested in learning how to drive manuals in the US. Nippon, daysailer, stickguy, and you may keep the faith but it is simply too easy to jump ship. Sports cars are a niche within a niche. Sporty cars can be made to seem sporty by adding paddle shifters because 90 percent of the population wouldn't know what their transmission was nor would they look.
You define sports car as one with a manual. Most of the population and some of the manufacturers disagree. You have to make an effort to keep driving what you love, most of society doesn't have to do anything, the engineers and the manufacturers do it all for them.
Thanks for the site. Up until two years ago I managed a fleet of Trucks for a large warehouse. We had twelve trucks when I took over operation in 1989. All but three of those trucks were manuals when I started. After looking at my yearly down time and repair bills I decided that half of my drivers simply couldn't properly drive a manual. I switched the whole fleet except of one 10 ton diesel to Automatics. Down time was cut by 60 percent in the first year. The person that was hired after I left has no intention of going back to manuals and the maintainance people would kill him if he did. I freely admit the fault doesn't fall on the transmission, it falls on so few drivers than can drive manuals.
Yeah, Lilengineerboy posted a link from FleetOwner earlier today in another discussion and I killed an hour browsing around and skimming articles on oil analysis.
And I guess it's cheaper to dumb it down rather than try to train drivers.
Front wheel planted in the direction I would like to go rear wheels hanging out in a slight drift accomplished with one foot on the brake and gas at the same time.
You can do that in any of the cars I considered when I bought my TL - the 330i, G35, 545i, etc. And you sure as heck can do it in a 911. All of which have stability control standard, but it's not so intrusive as to prevent a little fun. Maybe you just aren't shopping the right cars?
But if you are so accomplished a driver as to be able to safely drift around corners and modulate brakes on slick surfaces to stop as quickly as ABS, doesn't it seem just a bit pitiful that you are suggesting a slushbox with paddle shifters is "sporty"? That's like getting your game down to a 3 handicap and then playing off the ladies tees.
Oh, and since you seem convinced that the $20k+ SMG transmissions in Formula One cars are the same thing you get in your average sport sedan, I'm sure you also know that they all have ABS brakes as well? Guess you have a leg up on Schumacher in braking skill? :surprise:
I understand your points, but to me, whether we are talking about automatic transmissions, stability control, the American language, or whatever, it is just another example of our society drifting (or free-falling) to the lowest common denominator. I will not acquiesce!
Trail braking was one of the funnest parts of throwing the Contour around Buttonwillow. And that is a FWD car. I had goofy "racing" metal pedal covers that made it much easier for me to heel and toe, drop it into second, a dab on the brakes to get the front end loaded, stay on them a little too long as I turn in and feel the back rotate just enough and I'm back on the gas. Ahh, just thinking about it made my morning.
As I indicated in an earlier post I never expected you to I only stated that you have to work harder the find what you want and that goes to my observation that we are a society that prefers our machines to do the work for us. New and improved simply translates to the product doesn't require the consumer to do anything. There are magic words that are used to take away driver input like safety, enviromentaly friendly, comfort and ease of use. The add people can add "so easy to use anyone can do it. And that sells.
But that still leaves the unanswered the question. Suppose your favorite company drops the manual what do you do? The example might be would a person give up motorcycles because they can't get a Gold wing with a kick start? I wonder how many of the less than 10 percent now driving manuals would give up driving if they couldn't get a new car with a stick? But I know most would make the compromise. Even Habitat has a vehicle with a Automatic in his fleet.
I wonder how many of the less than 10 percent now driving manuals would give up driving if they couldn't get a new car with a stick? But I know most would make the compromise.
Oh I don't think I am going to suddenly start walking the 20 miles to work, but I think it would change my purchasing habits. I was willing to pay a slight premium over a "base acceptable vehicle" in order to get something with a manual. We purchased our Subaru wagon (over the much cheaper Taurus wagon) because of the availability of a manual. The same with the Accord. If there is no manual available, and there is already so little to differentiate vehicles in the market, why would I spend more? I think as long as there are fossil fuels, there will be a manual transmission vehicle around - although a "classic" or collector car might not be so practical for everyday. That might mean I commute in a Yaris or Yuris or whatever its called and then drive something I actually enjoy on the weekends and evenings.
That I can understand. I am just not sure the average consumer cares and at some point it seems logical that cars like the mid sized Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Chevy, Ford, Chrysler will not bother to offer a manual. It is just easier to go to a lot and drive what they have and like I have said before, Americans love easy.
I too, I'm sorry to say, also have an automatic in my fleet - my wife went to the dark side when she developed a problem with he knee and I avoid driving "her" car as much as possible.
If my "favorite" company eliminates a MT option, I will have a new favorite! I am a recent, first-time Subaru owner, in part, for that reason. I suffer enough miles in automatic rental cars to keep me painfully aware of their inadequacies.
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The cars that I've been looking at are the '07 Honda Accord, '07 Mazda6 and '08 Ford Fusion. They're all available with manual transmission (on paper at least) but they're almost non-existent on dealer lots. I expected the Mazda6 manual to be a fairly easy find, but the Accord is the only one I've found in any signficant numbers. The only manual Fusions I've found are base S models with no options....not what I'm looking for! UGH!
What really ticks me off is the way the dealers look at me when I insist that I want a manual. Then again, a lot of people are surprised when they ride in my car for the first time and realize I have a manual. I'm 32 and apparently only a handful of people younger than me can even drive a manual transmission.
Great at deterring car thieves and carjackings, though.
They took the Nissan Maxima from being the premier Japanese sport/luxury sedan from the 1990's and bloated it up, replaced the manual transmission with a rubber band CVT, and what do they have to show for it? The Maxima's sales in 2007 are running about 80% below 1997. And if you think the Altima somehow filled that void, name 5 successful professionals who could very easily afford a 5 series or E-class that bought an Altima instead. That represented the friends and associates that recommended the Maxima to me in 1995. The plasticky, low budget Altima would barely get a second look from an aspiring paralegal, let alone a single look from a senior attorney or law firm partner.
And in spite of trying to sell the 350Z as the re-birth of the original Datsun 240Z, Nissan managed to bloat it up to weighing 400 lbs more than that 1995 Maxima of mine. If it wasn't for the Infiniti G series, Nissan would be completely off the radar screen of serious enthusiasts. And possibly heading towards bankruptcy.
Nissan is coming off their worst financial performance in nearly two decades for fiscal year 2006, and heading towards a possibly worse year in 2007. With respect to the bloated CVT Maxima, they snatched defeat our of the jaws of victory and pissed away decades of brand equity practically overnight. If you want to use them as an example of anything, turn their missteps into a Harvard Business School case study on market ineptitude.
I may not be able to predict the future of the manual transmission, but I can assure you no market savvy business professional wakes up in the morning wanting his compnay to be more like Nissan.
About the manuals right at this moment i don't see any kinda shiftig mechanism that is better than stick , but the MitSubishi is coming up with the clutchless tranny in the EVO does anybody know how it works
IIRC the Cobalt does ride on an Opel platform, can't recall if it's an Astra or Vectra but I think it'd be a stretch to call it a rebadged Opel.
I think you have the Isuzu-Opel thing backwards, the Monterey, Frontera etc are Isuzus rebadged for the Euro market. They turned the Rodeo into a Honda simply by changing the badges.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Is it that in the American (or North American) culture we have come to expect to not have to work very hard to get anywhere?
I think most commercial drivers feel the same way, which is why all those manual trucks are still out there.
regards,
kyfdx
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Habitat, I am not using Nissan as a example of business prowess but simply showing what their market research must be telling them about American customer preferences. I was also responding to someone saying it was more likely that the CVT would replace the traditional automatic rather than a manual and Nissan has simply decided to drop the manual in at least three vehicles over the last few years. I also noticed the Nissan Rogue has a hands free cell phone option on the wheel so it shows what their research people must feel about the chances of cell phones in cars being banned in the near future.
You would think they could adjust tension on the fly, it being a CVT and all, and since for high horsepower or towing applications with a manual, they just get a clutch with more clamping force.
But, I think I understood what you were trying to say! Maybe the new green movement will help people to see what kind of price has been paid for the "leisure ethic".
Also, saying "no one wants to have to work to get to work" is just about synonymous to "we have come to expect to not have to work very hard to get anywhere", isn't it?
I think we've reached the same conclusion with different words. Good discussion, thanks!
But yes we see the results even if we came from different directions.
I would be curious to drive a newer model with a manual that was in good shape, without a shot clutch!
I did some more looking today at the Ryder place (I had some time to kill) and the trucks that were assigned to companies (paineted up and everything) were all sticks, other than 1 AT International. I guess they just have ATs for the daily rental crowd.
I also peeked into the cab of a tractor unit. That one had a 16 speed, with a very interesting pattern diagram on the dash! Looked to be about the same cab as the straight frame trucks, just with the fancy shifter.
Probably explains the jump from 26,000 gvwr to 65,000!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Well, their market research is obviously WRONG, at least with respect to the Maxima. Dropping a manual transmission wasn't their only misstep there - the car also ballooned up in weight and size, further eviscerating it of any sportiness.
Which supports another point I've made in the past. Many people here cite that only 30-20-10% of BMW 3-series, 5-series, Acura TL's former Nissan Maximas, etc, etc are sold with a manual transmission. And that must mean that it really doesn't have much of a futre.
But look, the 3-series is the class leader among enthusiasts which has a huge halo effect among even the 3 pedal challenged. When Acura redesigned the TL in 2004 and added a 6-speed manual option, only about 10% of buyers went for the 6-speed, but total model sales went up by a factor of 200%+. Nissan drops the manual transmission that only accounted for 5-10% of Maxima sales, and total sales have dropped 80%.
The point is that serious enthusiasts prefer manuals and what serious enthusiasts prefer as cars helps sell them to the rest of the general public. That general public might be willing to buy the car with a one speed CVT, but if the enthusiasts aren't, they will never enjoy a potential halo effect. Exceptionally good alternatives, like Ferrari's $10,000+ F1 option, can be acceptable to some/many enthusiasts. But BMW's SMG has failed, and VW/Audi's DSG is questionable (hard to separate the DSG from Audi's obesity problem). Porsche's Tiptronic tries hard, but still no serious enthusiast buys one (and resla values of 911 Turbos show it to have a NEGATIVE value) A rubber band CVT - doesn't have a prayer in the "sport" world.
Can you sell generic Camrys or Buick like Avalons without offering a manual transmission option? Absolutely. But for any cars that intend to include "sport" in their name, description or sales brochures, a short throw 6-speed manual with a clutch pedal is still the KING. And if Nissan were ever stupid enough to conclude that, since only 20% of "G" sales are manual transmissions that they can stick a rubber band in that car instead, you really will see them in a race with GM to bankruptcy court.
However I think the Boa-z has constricted on a reason that manual trans cars may become unavailable: emissions/EPA/CARB.
Every automatic one we have ever gotten sits on the lot for a month or more. Every six speed TL lasts two weeks or less. Profit margin on the Six speeds is always higher as well.
People who want one will pay for it, and it is often easier to sell one, since there are often people out looking for a stick, so when one pops up, it gets snagged.
I have never really had a problem selling one either. Probably get less calls, but you get peple that are serious about buying.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
However Toyota has seen fit to move towards the Automatic non sporting vehicle and I don't see them headed towards Bankruptcy court. And from reading some of the financial forecasts for BMW I am not sure they are in great shape for the long term future. One European forecast was talking about BMW suffering from the Boiling Frog syndrome. Not that it had anything to do with manuals.
In the US I believe the problem will come from the EPA and CARB. They want the manufacturer to be responsible for all the emissions their cars produce and manuals have a non programmable link called the driver. In that case the sporting enthusiasts may be the manuals own worst enemy.
Still as we are getting more and more black boxes in our vehicles maybe they will solve the shifting problem caused by slight over reving between shifts and downshifting. Sports cars may always have manuals with a dog leg but the sport sedan and sport wagon are fast becoming just words much as they did when they put the word sport on a SUV.
All the while while this "shift" continues away from stick shift sales.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Maybe they do mind, but feel they have to stay with a manual for financial reasons.
You know, if the smallest emgine available on my mazda6 was what it is over there and if I felt I had to go with the most efficient engine, due to $6 per gallon gas, I surely would have taken a manual.
Try rewriting your post after your morning cup of java and articulating your point, whatever it was, in English.
Mine was that Nissan has gone from being applauded for their financial turnaround several years ago to now being in precarious financial shape and losing some significant brand loyalty (Maxima) in the past few years.
Time to throw in the towel on that rig and concentrate on real Nissan cars. The gene pool that can drive a stick is sadly vanishing right before our steering wheels and I'll bet Nissan realizes that.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I can agree that enthusiasts themselves are a "niche". But the car models they prefer to drive end up being bought by a lot of others that may not be hard core enthusiasts, but still like a sporting drive. And what the enthusiasts prefer tend to get the most free press and publicity - whether in road tests in auto magazines to reviews on MSNBC and the Wall Street Journal.
As for "straight line" enthusiasts, you are going to have a much tougher time convincing me that the manual transmission gives up anything to these absurd "launch control" slushbox or SMG automatics. If you have ever actually driven a high performance automatic and manual back to back, name one that is actually quicker in auto form in the real world. Even the world class Ferrari SMG gives up a few tenths in straight line performance to the "dog leg" manual. And a few more around Nurburgring. My old 60 horsepower Datsun B210 GX can beat a 911 Turbo to 60 mph if you add the 10-12 seconds of "launch assist" prep you have to go through to spool up the turbos before that 3.4 second 0-60 run. I'll take the 3.7 seconds in the 6-speed that is instantaneously available whenever I want it.
Lastly, you know how I feel about the EPA and the supid [non-permissible content removed] politics around the whole "green" issue. If, in their infinite stupidity, they can claim a manual transmission in my 26+ mph highway 911S and 30+mpg highway TL 6-speed add to global warming, while the average soccer mom drives a 6,000 lb Suburban at 13 mpg to the grocery store to pick up a gallon of milk, heaven help us all. On the other hand, if the EPA outlawed the automatic transmission, you'd surely save the world by putting all of those dog leg challenged drivers on the sidelines. Or, just make SUV's pay the same gas guzzler tax that every passenger car of similar ineeficiency pays. Lots of ways to save the world, my friend, but manual transmissions are a stupid/silly distraction in that battle.
If the 4th generation Maxima, wasn't your cup of tea, that's fine. But it did outsell the BMW 3-series from 1995 to 1999 and that was the car it was generally pitted against in the road tests and press reviews. In 1995, Car and Driver proclaimed it the best of both worlds: fun to drive as a 3 series with the room of a 5 series. What, pray tell, are you comparing Nissan's current line-up of "real cars" to? Kias? No thanks.
Yet I will concede one to boaz: Altima sales are way up for the new model, even though the only available automatic now is that crappy CVT. Maybe they are selling more 6-speeds, and THAT is responsible for the sales upswing?! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My personal favorite is when the driver actaully makes the sound of an engine shifting as if they wanted to hear it shift....
I am interested in a Kia again, a Cee'd introduced to Europe and sold as a 1.6L diesel. 5-speed transmission and Peter Schreyer(formerly of Audi, he designed the TT amongst several others)body design. Beat out a Fiat and a Toyota Auris in a German mag's early comparo.
Nissan suffers from what Subaru suffers from....etch-a-sketch body designing. They're hideous. Even my '99 Kia Sephia had more subtle brainpower bodydesign goodness going on than any year of Nissan Maxima's. But they're different sizes of cars, I know that. Think about what I said though. The Turbo Legacy 4-door starts looking better, I'll give them that much. Lazy body design skills don't work with this padre.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
People simply see driving as another chore that has to be done and the easier the better. The manufacturers as a whole are only selling a product and if the consumer doesn't want to think about what they are driving that are not in the business to disagree with them. If the consumer decides it is a good idea to drink coffee while driving you get cup holders. It is just hard to imagine the American consumer doing anything that will advance the cause of the manual in the commuter car in the future. Slowly but surely we seem to be giving over control of out cars to the computer. After 2010 the computer will be in charge of our skid control. They are already working on a cruise control that will automatically slow down if you get too close to the vehicle in front of you. And why are they doing this, so the consumer won't have to do anything. In North America that is just the way the consumer likes it.
Are you implying that taking my manual transmission vehicle off on a drive through the countryside with my fat [non-permissible content removed] in the driver's seat and viewing the country roads through your windows is significantly different from sitting on the couch or taking the drive in an automatic (in terms of physical exertion)?
There are times I will admit it is just too easy to let our machines do the work for us no matter how little that work might seem. I bought a PDA Cell Phone to replace my PDA that I have had for three or four years. When I got the PDA I simply tossed out every day planner I ever had and put all my appointments in the PDA. The slight difference between the day planner and the PDA is that once I have entered the information I don't need to think about it any more because the device will remind me of the appointment. with the phone it reminds me of the appointment. It reminds me of Birthdays, anaversuries, and keeps track of all my phone numbers. It even updates my computer with the information. And with speed dial I don't even have to remember my most often called phone numbers. It wasn't always that way but I just sort of slipped into it because I don't have to do anything to use the device anymore. I am not saying this happens to everyone but it is easy to see the mindset that allows it to happen.
I even heard that somebody is coming up with a "navigation system" to make maps obsolete! :surprise: :surprise:
Seriously, I know we've had this conversation before, and I do get your point (without completely agreeing with it), but I have to repeat my question - where have you been over the past decade???
BMW and Mercedes has stability control systems in many of their models at least 7-10 years ago. That's certainly not something new. "Adaptive cruise control" has been out for at least 3-4 years. And, by the way, skid control in BMW's, Mercedes and Audis hasn't changed the transmission preference in Europe during that time.
As for parents teaching their kids how to drive a stick, I don't think that's anything new either. I'm afraid to admit it, but I went through driver's education in way back in 1973 - and it was all automatics back then. My first new car was in 1978, and it took a friendly Mazda dealer about 10 minutes to teach me enough to get by on a manual. Too bad for him that I then bought a Datsun.
What I will agree with you on is that more people may see driving as a "chore" today, thanks to more urbanization and congestion, and just plain apathy. When I got my first car, it was "fun" to drive a manual, even if it went from 0-60 in about a half hour (the automatic would have taken a full hour). Back then, I also spent a lot of my leisure time "rowing" a canoe in Lake Erie. Now, unfortunately, it seems that a lot of young people are techno gadgeted to death and are so lazy and apathetic that they can't even write an e-mail in real words, full sentences and with proper grammer. So it's little wonder that they don't drive a stick where you actually have to do something with your left foot. Knock on wood, that doesn't describe my kids, and I intend to do my best to keep it that way.
P.S. Parents aren't much better. More families went to Disney World on vacation last year than all of our National Parks. Talk about lazy fat asses!! :sick:
It is the very idea daysaler was talking about. The consumer had to learn proper brake modulating techniques and so they came out with ABS so the driver didn't have to do anything but step on the pedal. Skid or stability control will automatically slow you down in a corner. In fact many of the sports cars already produced will not allow you to heal and toe through a corner because the touch of the break pedal will cut power to the engine.
What I was trying to point out was that to please the average consumer you simply have to make a vehicle that gets them from point A to point B without much imput from them. That and a cup holder with a drive through Starbucks.
But I agree there is something we can do for ourselves. My wife and I plan of trying to visit some of our national parks starting this spring. We plan on spending about three months a year just driving around this country of ours. We have never been to Yellowstone or Mount Rushmore. That is something we plan on correcting.
That's not my understanding. I believe a 'defeat" button is still allowed, so long as it has an automatic override in the event of severe loss of directional control.
Skid or stability control will automatically slow you down in a corner. In fact many of the sports cars already produced will not allow you to heal and toe through a corner because the touch of the break pedal will cut power to the engine.
Again, that's not my understanding and that's certainly not the case with respect to Porsche, one of the pioneers in stability control systems. You can defeat the system with a dash mounted switch which will allow you to do just about anything a sane person (or slightly insane one) would want. If the car severely loses directional tracking (i.e. spin), the system will override the defeat and kick back in.
Fact is, I've now put just under 17,000 miles on my 2005 911S and have never once felt that ABS or stability control restricted my driving enjoyment. The couple of times it has kicked in, I deserved it (a little to enthusiastic of a turn on rain slicked roads, etc.). But, I wouldn't trade any of those miles for a Tiptronic automatic transmission.
It isn't the idea that ABS may or may not be a good thing. It is that slowly but surely they are standard on more and more cars so you don't have the choice of getting them or not. Now after years of driving cars without ABS what will my natural training tell me to do when I have to smash on the brakes in an emergency?
That is of course off subject but still designing a vehicle so the driver has as little input as possible seems to be a national trend and it seems to be supported by the government and the Greenies.
I bought my 1995 Maxima SE 5-speed manual with exactly one option on the car - ABS brakes. That was the only option I could afford at the time ($995 in 1995) - no sunroof, no leather, no Bose stereo, no power seats or any other luxury extras. Less than six months after I bought the Maxima, on a cold rainy night on the DC Beltway, a tractor trailer in the right lane lost control and started sliding into my center lane. I was able to avoid an accident by slamming my brakes, holding a perfectly straight line, downshifting and accelerating past on the right side. The whole scene was a blur, but the car to my left also slammed his brakes, went into a skid/spin and hit the truck. The passenger was killed, the driver critically injured. I was called in to testify at the vehicluar manslaughter trial of the truck driver and, from the testimony of other witnesses, it was pretty clear that ABS saved my life.
If you claim that you could have modulated your brakes ten times a second on a rain slick road and maintained directional control as effectively as an ABS system, then frankly, I think you are in a serious state of fantasy.
Stability control systems vary greatly. Lexus' system in the IS350 was resoundly criticized for being an overly intrusive electronic nanny. The system in my Acura TL is O.K.. The one in my 911 is perfect, given that it has 3 settings: normal, sport and off. And, by the way, the GT3, with its incredible track capabilities, has both ABS and the exact same PSM (Porsche Stability Management) systems as found in my everyday 911. So clearly, Porsche engineers and professional drivers are not so paranoid as you that their abilities are somehow being compromised. What's the message there?
P.S. That same GT3? Not available with a Tiptronic. For good reason.
TOUGHER but Gentler (FleetOwner - thanks for the site find Lilengineerboy)
I can see your point if the engineers feel they can provide a system that is better at cornering and stopping than me. That is exactly what they are trying to do with a DSG and shifting. Does it feel better? Not to you but but they are telling us it shifts faster than a human can.
By the way, when we didn't have ABS we didn't need to pulse our brakes ten times a second, we only applied enough pressure to stop the car and if it started to slide we backed off ever so slightly, it was a feel thing, much like some feel the clutch. But then the rational was, people were too lazy to learn proper braking techniques. Same rational I guess for stability control.
Enthusiasts may or may not go down fighting over a dog leg verses a computerized clutch. Maybe all they have to do is say, it is safer to keep both hands on the wheel or the engineers determined professional drivers performed better without a dog leg.
The real issue is I don't see many professional drivers even in Porsches on the street. So it still comes back to niche vehicles and a determined few that are searching for tradition. The real threat to manuals is that people simply don't care enough and aren't interested in learning how to drive manuals in the US. Nippon, daysailer, stickguy, and you may keep the faith but it is simply too easy to jump ship. Sports cars are a niche within a niche. Sporty cars can be made to seem sporty by adding paddle shifters because 90 percent of the population wouldn't know what their transmission was nor would they look.
You define sports car as one with a manual. Most of the population and some of the manufacturers disagree. You have to make an effort to keep driving what you love, most of society doesn't have to do anything, the engineers and the manufacturers do it all for them.
And I guess it's cheaper to dumb it down rather than try to train drivers.
You can do that in any of the cars I considered when I bought my TL - the 330i, G35, 545i, etc. And you sure as heck can do it in a 911. All of which have stability control standard, but it's not so intrusive as to prevent a little fun. Maybe you just aren't shopping the right cars?
But if you are so accomplished a driver as to be able to safely drift around corners and modulate brakes on slick surfaces to stop as quickly as ABS, doesn't it seem just a bit pitiful that you are suggesting a slushbox with paddle shifters is "sporty"? That's like getting your game down to a 3 handicap and then playing off the ladies tees.
Oh, and since you seem convinced that the $20k+ SMG transmissions in Formula One cars are the same thing you get in your average sport sedan, I'm sure you also know that they all have ABS brakes as well? Guess you have a leg up on Schumacher in braking skill? :surprise:
Ahh, just thinking about it made my morning.
No THAT'S what I like to hear!
As I indicated in an earlier post I never expected you to I only stated that you have to work harder the find what you want and that goes to my observation that we are a society that prefers our machines to do the work for us. New and improved simply translates to the product doesn't require the consumer to do anything. There are magic words that are used to take away driver input like safety, enviromentaly friendly, comfort and ease of use. The add people can add "so easy to use anyone can do it. And that sells.
But that still leaves the unanswered the question. Suppose your favorite company drops the manual what do you do? The example might be would a person give up motorcycles because they can't get a Gold wing with a kick start? I wonder how many of the less than 10 percent now driving manuals would give up driving if they couldn't get a new car with a stick? But I know most would make the compromise. Even Habitat has a vehicle with a Automatic in his fleet.
Oh I don't think I am going to suddenly start walking the 20 miles to work, but I think it would change my purchasing habits. I was willing to pay a slight premium over a "base acceptable vehicle" in order to get something with a manual. We purchased our Subaru wagon (over the much cheaper Taurus wagon) because of the availability of a manual. The same with the Accord.
If there is no manual available, and there is already so little to differentiate vehicles in the market, why would I spend more?
I think as long as there are fossil fuels, there will be a manual transmission vehicle around - although a "classic" or collector car might not be so practical for everyday. That might mean I commute in a Yaris or Yuris or whatever its called and then drive something I actually enjoy on the weekends and evenings.
If my "favorite" company eliminates a MT option, I will have a new favorite! I am a recent, first-time Subaru owner, in part, for that reason. I suffer enough miles in automatic rental cars to keep me painfully aware of their inadequacies.