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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Tahoe is GLORIOUS this year - there's more snow than they know what to do with. What a great season we are having. Where I am, I think we will have had a foot of RAIN by the end of this week - we have two more major storms coming in before Monday, and it has been raining pretty much continuously since last Sunday.

    Parking in SF can be difficult depending on the area, but I wouldn't call it a problem. It is an appropriate discouragement factor to driving into the City - we've got the transit to offer real options to driving in.

    And walking a few blocks to get where I am going is certainly not a problem for me either. Even in rainy weeks like this one.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    You have a transit system. The rest of us in this state have public transportation that doesn't go anywhere we want to go.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They kept the hill holder on the new 2009 Foresters, too.

    Not sure if it will spread to the whole lineup.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Having learned to drive a stick in the mountains, I was completely skeptical about the usefulness of the hill-holder clutch. However now that I have one, I must say that it's nice to be able to take your foot completely off the brake when sitting on an incline waiting for the light to change :)

    -Frank
  • gussguss Member Posts: 1,167
    I just got a Miata for a weekend car. Having not owned a stick for about four years the first hill I had to stop on got my heart going. Of course the guy behind me must have been about an inch from my bumper. Like riding a bike it all came back to me.

    I have noticed , and probably do this myself, that other driver get much closer than they used to at a traffic light on a hill. I used to assume the car in front of me was a manual and would give them plenty of room. I never think about giving any room unless it's a car that usually will have a manual , like a Porsche,Miata or a 350Z.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I use the hand brake. It works just like the Hill Holder does, only it's manual.
  • gussguss Member Posts: 1,167
    I used that trick when I first learned to drive, it always seemed like cheating though.

    Does the Subaru hill holder use the parking brake to hold the car?
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Hey Juice that's cheating! :P

    A "true" stick jockey who is one with his vehicle should be able to stop on the steepest of hills and start again without any backwards rolling :shades:

    Subaru's uses the regular brakes.

    -Frank
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I always used my hand brake on an incline, figuring it was easier on the clutch.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    I think the only time it would be bad for your clutch was if you were holding it on the hill with the clutch halfway engaged. However, I think that would be tricky to do on a steep hill.

    -Frank
  • razorasdfrazorasdf Member Posts: 61
    I roll back maybe an inch or less on decently steep hills while trying to achieve a smooth start... What does that make me?? :P
  • ny540i6ny540i6 Member Posts: 518
    I roll back maybe an inch or less on decently steep hills while trying to achieve a smooth start... What does that make me??

    Makes you anal retentive, if you measured that inch.

    ;)
  • razorasdfrazorasdf Member Posts: 61
    Har har, I was only guesstimating. :P
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    Without shame I will admit that I use that "trick" as well when I drive my truck and am towing more than 3 or 4 thousand pounds. Although, I have found that more than 7 or 8 thousand pounds and the parking brake does not help much. :D
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    liked the idea of the hill holder. Having to hold the e brake all through a light and making sure it wasn't all the way up so you had trouble releasing it was the hard part. I never liked that method. I know some keep the release depressed but that is a bit of a pain in traffic on a long hill.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    All through the light? Why, when you could just pull it while in the process of shifting modes from brake to clutch/gas? I am speculating though as I have never tried it in a car with a hand-operated e-brake lever.

    On my truck, it is a foot brake with hand release, so I punch it a few seconds prior to needing the left foot to press the clutch, then pop it when the truck is just starting to strain forward.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    I haven't used the e-brake method for a while because most of them don't hold as well in reverse as I would like. My Prelude was almost worthless in reverse so I was sure it wouldn't hold on a steep hill.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    I roll back maybe an inch or less on decently steep hills while trying to achieve a smooth start... What does that make me??

    Actually I'd say that's pretty good.

    When my niece was still learning to drive a stick (and still had her learners permit), she was stopped on an incline waiting for a light in the middle of downtown Atlanta during rush hour. When the light turned green she stalled the engine and then things went downhill from there. After stalling once, her confidence was shot so she kept stalling the engine until the light eventually turned red again. At that point, my sister jumped out of the passenger seat, ran around the car and took over. Of course as you can imagine, there was lots of horn honking going on ;)

    -Frank
  • razorasdfrazorasdf Member Posts: 61
    Well, the first night I got my tC, I'd never driven a stick before, so my bright idea was to drive about 16 miles each way to my uncle's house. I needed to learn fast since I had to go to my classes the next day, and tons of places after that.

    My very first stoplight on an incline, I rolled back a foot, and in panic gave too much gas. There were approximately 6-7 cop cars in different places waiting for a green to cross that intersection. I peeled out first gear, chirped 2nd gear pretty hard, and even chirped 3rd gear. I thought for sure I was getting pulled over, but I guess the cops were too busy laughing to bother... :P

    I'd stall tons of times in the following week, once or twice with a lot of honking involved and another where I needed to reverse in a very steep parking lot with about 3" from my front bumper to a street pole (nearly called my brother for backup, but ended up just revving the piss out of it and making the clutch beg for mercy). I think it took about 2 weeks for me not to panic on hills with traffic. The first time I used the ebrake to help me launch, it was probably the most perfect and smoothest start I did for months... Now I'm just too lazy to do it. :shades:
  • upstatedocupstatedoc Member Posts: 710
    So how does the hill holder work? By engaging the regular breaks when you depress the clutch?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My parking garage has a steep ramp, and I have to stop mid-way and scan my ID for it to open.

    I think it's less wear to use the parking brake vs. the clutch.

    Rear brake pads: $17.
    New Clutch: $400.
    New Clutch installation (labor): $300

    Not having to replace the clutch?

    Priceless.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    I know originally the system was mechanical (on my 86 subaru) when you came to a stop and had the brake brake and clutch depressed fully it triggered a valve of somesort that maintained the hydralic brake pressure as long as you had the clutch in, I seem to recall hearing that the latest system is electronic in nature instead of mechanical (or hydralic). Probably the there is a switch on both pedals and when they are both activated (i.e. both pedals are depressed) it tells the computer which is programmed to keep pressure on the brakes until both switches are turned off (I.e. both pedals are relesed). I am sure someone has a better and fuller explaination though. I do seem remember having to have the valve replaced in the subaru I had, and maybe that was fairly common resulting in discontinuing the feature, I do remeber it working very well though. Anyway I hope I didn't just confuse ypou more.
    Scott
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Yes there's a switch that keeps the brakes engaged once both the clutch and brake pedals are depressed. This allows you to take your foot completely off the brake and as long as the clutch is kept depressed, the vehicle will not roll backwards. Also, the vehicle has to be on a slight incline for it to engage.

    The one down side (although it hasn't happened to me) is when you're parked on a hill and just want to roll backwards (like out of a driveway). Won't do it unless you engage it in reverse :(

    -Frank
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    If the vehicle has Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (or some other equivalent fanciness), it's pretty easy to throw in a bit of code telling the computer to hold the brake pressure until a second or two after the clutch pedal is released.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "The one down side (although it hasn't happened to me) is when you're parked on a hill and just want to roll backwards (like out of a driveway). Won't do it unless you engage it in reverse"

    Not even if you just engage neutral and release the clutch pedal?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well, that won't discourage me from driving stick exclusively, but what a bizarre little news item! People are so weird.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • upstatedocupstatedoc Member Posts: 710
    I don't know how anyone can read that story and still oppose the death penalty. People with that little regard for human life should not be allowed to mingle with the rest of us...even in jail. Was that a little off topic? :(
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    We are living in a strange world. It points out a problem however. It is more than people are just not buying a manual. People simply don't know how to drive manuals and don't care to learn. Let me say, "many" people don't care to learn. Two summers ago I took my PT to a car wash suggested by my secretary. The PT had custom hand painter pin striping and this car wash didn't use brushes. When my car got to the end of the line a rather pretty young girl jumped in to move my car to the drying station. She jumped right out and ran over to another young man and said something. He ran over to an older man and had him move the car. Neither the young girl or the young man could drive a manual.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,733
    See, now, there is someone who needs to find a new line of work.

    its a sad world when even carjackers don't take their proffession seriously enough to learn all the ins and outs.

    sorry if anyone thinks i'm making light of it .... i feel horrible for the victim, of course.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ny540i6ny540i6 Member Posts: 518
    Interesting thing that your post highlights for me.... we go to quite a few places where I have to valet park. I am used to having to wait longer than most people when it comes time to get the car back, simply because not every valet drives a stick. A funny thing - at many places the one person who CAN drive a stick is female. My assumption (not based on any science), is that these women had to prove more to get the job in the first place. - Just my opinion.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct. But I did get some interesting insight from a Honda salesman one day while dropping my secretary off to get her car serviced. I asked his opinion on why the CR-V was no longer offered in a Manual and he said, "It is pretty much sold as a young family SUV and not many Young families want a Manual. I asked why not? He qualified the answer with the idea that most often the wife wasn't interested in a manual. This does seem to be a trend.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    "It is pretty much sold as a young family SUV and not many Young families want a Manual. I asked why not? He qualified the answer with the idea that most often the wife wasn't interested in a manual. This does seem to be a trend.

    In hindsight, my life would be easier if my wife wanted an automatic instead of a manual because I wouldn't have to do so much searching to find cars for her. Of course that said, I don't think I would be willing to search for an automatic anything for her, and I love the car she has now.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I haven't had much trouble with valet parking of our assortment of stick shifts over the years, but I did have an incident back when I had a Honda S2000 a few years ago. After waiting 10 minutes at a fancy country club and having everybody behind me get their car, the attendent came back looking completely frazzled and said no matter how hard he turned the key in the ignition, it wouldn't start. It was nighttime and he never saw the red "Start" red button on the dash. Fortunately, he didn't break the key off in the ignition - that apparantly happened to another S2000 owner at a parking garage in DC.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I used to park my manny-tranny cars at the garage on 56th just a hair west of 7th Avenue (right across from Carnagie Hall) two or three times per week and every attendant there was quite proficient with a stick. ;) It got to the point that no matter where I was headed in Mahattan, I would park in that garage.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I used to valet park part-time, way back when. For beer money. :D

    You learn the tricks quickly. Saab's manuals make you put them in Reverse before the key comes out. Co-workers point that out before you park your first car, though.

    Missing a Start button is a rookie error, and the result of poor preperation/training.

    A little off topic, but a highlight was parking Wilbur Marshall's 911 (ex-Redskin player). He tipped well, too. :shades:
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,669

    Missing a Start button is a rookie error, and the result of poor preperation/training.


    Harsh, to be fair the re-emergence of the start button is a recent phenomenon, I think the S2000 was the first car to have on since the 60s and they were rare then.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For me it was a part-time job I did with mostly other college kids. When we weren't working we talked about, what else, cars. All the time.

    I dunno, I think something like that would be discussed and read about before you ever saw it.

    I guess it's different for a career valet.

    Same for the odd shifters in the BMW 7 series, for instance.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    We have a valet operation at one of the stores that I work for. Since the majority of cars needing valet with a stick are import sports cars, all the valets quickly learn stick so they can have a shot at driving the 'cool' cars. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    This guy pulled up once in a DeTomaso Pantera and I nearly wet my pants.

    Tragically, there was a spot on the street and he took it, so he didn't need valet parking. :cry:

    By the way, that was a cool way to sample cars. Not at speed, just to hop in and try out the clutch, shifter, etc.

    Oddly enough I miss it.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    By the way, that was a cool way to sample cars. Not at speed, just to hop in and try out the clutch, shifter, etc.

    I agree. During major holidays all non-store employees help out in our stores and I, naturally, volunteered to help out the valet crew. Based on the 'sampling' I was able to recommend my wife's next vehicle!
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    "This guy pulled up once in a DeTomaso Pantera and I nearly wet my pants."

    That and a GT40, now called a Ford GT were indeed dream cars. When you saw one on the street you could just stand and look at it. But they are few and far between.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Hey I was behind a Ford GT yesterday driving home from work. Then this morning I was behind a Maserati :P

    -Frank
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    "Hey I was behind a Ford GT yesterday driving home from work. Then this morning I was behind a Maserati."

    I have always loved Italian cars but they remind me of when I used to have sail boats. For every day of sailing you had to devote a day of maintainance. I would take the Ford. ;)

    One of the things that changed the US consumers transmission preferences was big torque motors. (in my opinion.) When I was growing up the cars young drivers seems to be dreaming about had names like, Hemi Cuda, GTX, Charger, GTO, Chevelle. The engines these vehicles had just dripped off the lips of high school boys. 426, 440, 427,and 396. Drag strips were easily available in most counties and half of the guys I went to college with and even high school spent quite a few nights and weekends at these strips. It was quickly discovered that many of the 4 speed automatics were quicker through the 1/4 mile than their manual counterparts. That wasn't necsessarly the case with smaller chevy mouse motors and the 289 Fords but the big Rat motors and the Mopar machines simply didn't need a manual to perform well. I can remember in the mid to late 60s AAmco would hardly even work on a manual. The manual made a bit of a comeback with the early import cars but I just don't see them ever becoming a major player in US transmissions in the future. Habitat might be correct that enthusiasts will keep them alive in sporting vehicles but the average consumer just doesn't seem to care how their vehicle gets in gear.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Coincidentally, I saw one too, a Coupe.

    To bring this back on topic, I believe it was a Cambiocorsa.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    To bring this back on topic

    Hey I was on topic... the Ford GT only comes with a manual 6-speed and the Maserati Quattroporte has the option of a paddle-shift clutchless manual :P

    -Frank
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    Well, they probably hardly ever worked on a manual because the manuals hardly ever needed to be worked on! I seem to recall it was pretty hard to hurt a top loader or rock crusher.

    Love those names BTW. ATs never have tough, macho names like that. Powerglide just doesn't have the same spark.

    Oh, AAMCO might have done a few clutches with all that drag racing.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Yes, but if you had a Muncie or Saginaw and you were running them hard trying to keep up with the big Mopars you did need work. And yes most often it was a clutch, throw out bearing or synchro.

    Like many of the time some of us paid the rent running our vehicles against others. But it is very hard to shift as many times or as quick in the 1/4 with a manual. That is one of the things that impress me so much with the sequencial shifters in WRC cars. Those puppies will drop a dog leg like yesterdays fish. But part of my manual training was more than 8 years of motorcycle commuting in the late 70 early 80s. Yes they had a clutch but there is no need for a H pattern with the short throw some of these new trannies have. Even back then we could get a Hurst shifter with such a narrow gate it was pretty much like the + and - auto shifters we see in modern cars. Still with a third pedal but with the spring loaders there was no up over and through in your wrist. I would even love a sequencial with a clutch if that was the best I could get. But with the new computers it just seems as if we don't need the third pedal. Dog legs don't add control because no car has the control of a motorcycle and they don't need a dog leg. But the human being has gotten about as good as they can get with a dog leg and we simply can't get much faster. We need something more if the manual geared transmission is going to advance. We now have automatics with seven and eight speeds. They have CVTs they can program with any number of gears you might want. I just can't imagine a dog leg with any more gears let alone another gate.

    Sure the traditional enthusiast my enjoy the nostalgia of knowing how to use a manual. They might even feel more connected. But the competitive enthusiast is always looking for an edge and something "like" a WRC shifter sure seems tempting. Tempting to the point that no WRC car is competitive without one.

    Over the years my reaction time hasn't gotten any better and 1/4 drag strips are farther apart. There are now more 1/8 mile strips close to me that allow grass roots racing for imports as well as some classic cars. Everything about the cars we can drive today seems better technically except the transmission. Our cars are capable of shifting faster but they have to wait on our reaction time with our left foot and right hand.

    This isn't a case of my family not knowing how to drive a manual. My wife and I plus my son and his wife all can and do drive manuals. It is just that manuals have simply become an option to get or not get much like power seats. At least that is how it seems.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Was reading a review of the new Cadillac CTS in this month's Consumer Reports and was amazed to discover that it comes with a 6-speed manual as standard equipment :surprise: When was the last time Cadillac offered a manual transmission?

    -Frank
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    "When was the last time Cadillac offered a manual transmission?"

    They don't sell many manuals but didn't the CTS-V have a manual in 2004 or earlier? It was something someone mentioned earlier when they dropped the manual on one of the Lincolns that used to have one.
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