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My wife is second generation all-stick-all-the-time, and I am thankful for it. Well, most of the time. Its much harder to find manual transmission vehicles, so it is actually more of a pain for me but to foster the cause, I don't mind.
My mother is the only one who has to sit in the car and think for a minute to "remember" how to drive a stick when she comes to visit. Everyone else just jumps in and goes.
Yes and no...the dealer here has a warning of towing with the Murano and states it could damage the transmission, even though the SUV is rated for over 3k.
The nannyising computers and AI that's as smart as a fish is the reason most drivers ditch them and move back to a traditional manual.
1. Hit gas, push well towards the floor.
2. Watch tach rise almost to redline and stay there.
3. Pull out industrial strength ear plugs to drown out the unholy wail of the engine maintaining revs at its power peak while the CVT adjusts its ratios continuously.
Yuck, I despise slushboxes, but I hold particular contempt for the CVT.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
What you describe is exactly the way I think a CVT should work: if I floor the pedal the engine should go straight to redline and stay there until I back off, the CVT doing its thing as the car's speed increases. If I give the pedal a gentle push, the engine should go to maybe 1500 or so and stay there as long as my foot does. The "gas" pedal should be a simple rpm selector; none of this fake shift point silliness.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
It has been decided that three speed manuals weren't enough so 4 speeds were deemed better. 5 Speeds seemed better than 4 and now six speeds seem better than 5. Even some automatics are now offering 8 speeds to smooth out the driving experience and make the car shift smoothly. Most people are looking for smooth gear changes. How much smoother can you get than not needing any gear change and an unlimited number of gear ratios? Every one of us at some time or another has been in a position where our car was "between" gears. Not fast enough for one gear and too slow for another. With a CVT that problem simply isn't a consideration.
I believe both sides of this question will agree that three pedals keep us connected with our automotive past. And that is a good thing. But we must also realize that the car is simply a tool. The goal of the engineer in making tools for society is to make them easier to use. Manual spark advances, manual chokes all were fine in their day and they did the job. It was found that the vehicle could be designed to set its own spark advance and automatically adjust its own choke. It was easier for the average person. That is all that is happening with the manuals transmission. It may not go away but it is almost doomed to be a niche transmission at some point in our future. There are still people that like vinyl records. They still have whole collections of them. But it is very hard to find a record player. I am sure there must be some successful niche manufacturer or refurbisher for the people that insist on keeping their records. It is just that at some point the "average" manufacturer discovered that making record players wasn't worth the effort. Same thing happened with Video players. We were told for years that Beta was a better format than VHS yet everyone wanted VHS. What happened to Beta?
We all know how these things work. Manual drivers may not be forced off of the road their choices will simply be reduced. If they would rather have a manual and the new Nissan super car coming doesn't have a manual they simply will not buy one. If Hybrids don't offer manuals they simply will not be able to buy a hybrid. But with such a small percentage of Americans buying manuals it is unlikely the manufacturers will change their direction and risk upsetting the larger percentage of the consumer market that isn't buying manuals.
Exactly. The manufacturers are just giving the market what it wants....Obviously, they are in business to make money and sell cars (ior at least that's their goal!)....
If they thought they could sell more cars by making more with manual trans, they would do it....The domestic 2.5 are almost 100% auto, but it would be fairly easy for Honda or Toyota or BMW etc to increase the ratio of manuals to automatics if they wanted to. They don't do it because the manuals would sit at the dealer unsold. I just think it's silly to "blame" the automakers for giving 95% of the population what it wants...
In C&D's small SUV comparo the Rogue was the fastest by far, beating several V6 models with its efficient little 4 banger.
It's hard to ignore the balance of performance plus efficiency. Getting one is easy; getting both is not.
Of course I'd love to see a 5MT 2009 Forester compared to the Rogue (similar power), since C&D only tested automatics.
That is certainly how some people feel about all cars and all people feel about some cars but there are plenty of cars that are far more than just a tool to get from point A to point B and plenty of drivers who appreciate them.
-Frank
Jaguar E type, a tool?
I think not
For many (most?) people cars are transportation appliances - they buy 'em based on consumer reports, swear that the cheapest tire that rolls is the only tire worth buying, see a wax job as a necessary evil to protect the "investment" etc etc.... And then there are those who feel differently.
I believe there is room for both, however I also believe that those who feel differently probably enjoy manuals, not simply because of fuel efficiency, but because Driving (big "D") is a passion, or at least an enjoyment.
The Rogue is also about 800-1000 pounds lighter than a Vue or Edge, and that makes a big, big difference.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'm a different kind of car person, in that I enjoy the car, but I enjoy the trip itself more. I like manuals. However, I have no understanding whatsoever of those who look on a car as an art object -- perfect finish, many coats of wax/Zaino (or whatever) & driven 3000 (or 300) miles a year. I want a fun car that I can beat the crap out of while driving it 12-18K miles per year, and it'll generally look like that's been the case.
Different strokes. . .
Oh heaven forbid, something be set up for peak efficiency or power, oh the horror. Get a real engine, then you don't need ear plugs. Even my MIL's Prius didn't bother me.
But the passion isn't about the starting place and ending place, its about the space in-between, and how much one can enjoy that place in-between. Do I need 300 horsepower to get to work and back efficiently or to get to the grocery store?
I think there is little to differentiate contemporary vehicles if viewed solely as a tool. There is very little real difference between a Taurus and an ES350 if a car is just a tool, especially since they are both somewhat bland.
If it were really solely a tool, price would be the biggest factor in purchase decisions, and true utility (number of seats, minimum payload, etc).
I call it the motorboat effect. But who wants their car to sound like a motorboat? You know, when they put fast cars in the movies, they never ever make them sound like motorboats, they always depict them going through their gears. Gawd, can you imagine James Bond driving a friggin' CVT??!! "Oh James, a tad dainty today, aren't we?"
As for the future of manuals, the existence of the CVT has little influence I think. I console myself every day with the certain knowledge that Apple has a thriving little business going over there with only 5% of the market, and manuals still have more than what, 9%? :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As I type this from my MacBook, I agree. I don't think the CVT is a threat to the manual.
I am driving a VW GTI DSG right now. It has paddles on the wheel. It is a hoot to drive, but I feel much more comfortable using the shifter in the sport mode then the paddles. I also have been trying to adjust for the jerky down-shifts I think that in this type of vehicle, if you have a psuedo-stick, you just accept the abruptness and jerkiness, even though you can smooth that out to a large degree in a true manual. As far as an automatic though, I think its one of the best automatics I've ever driven. If something happened to my left leg (or I had to commute on the 405 and could have a real stick on weekends) I would strongly consider it.
OK... problem number 1. - I have difficulty saying "I agree with you pinhead" - Where I come from them's fightin' words.
I too am not a fan of the trailer queen. I am tough on my cars. They get maintained well, however they get used... My annual mileage is quite a bit north of 18K, but I get your point. I enjoy the few free Sundays that I can spend with the car, doing the full cleaning, etc - fact is, it is a great thinking space.... I never try for show quality, and, depending on the vehicle, I've had the unfixed ding that had a history - nothing like remembering HOW and where you put the crease in the Jeep!
The passion is in you not the tool. How you use the tool is your business but it doesn't change the concept. A car is designed to preform a task of assistance to a human. A human may show preference to how that particular tool works but it doesn't change the nature of the machine. You can have a good tool and you can have an average tool or even a bad tool but that doesn't make them anything other than a tool. You can even gain some satisfaction from using a tool well. Still a car is a machine designed to move you from one point to another. It can do it in comfort, precision or economy but it will still only get you from where you start to where you finish. With that in mind manufacturers can only try to make their tool better or easier to use than the other manufacturer. The reason for CVT, DSG, SMT and other automatics is because the buying public wants a easier to use tool. When more tha 90 percent of the market is buying a tool with an automatic that is where you put your effort. It might be worth it to leave the other 7,8, or 9 percent to the other guy. ( I am only talking about the big manufacturers.)
But consumer trends are only the frontal attack to manuals. The greenies are pushing for more hybrids and if those same greenies are driving economy cars with manuals today when they switch to Hybrids they will be driving an automatic. Even in this forum many of the stanchest proponents of the continuing manual cite fuel mileage as a major reason they drive a manual. If they switch to hybrids that simply isn't going to be a choice. If the news release I quoted earlier is correct Toyota plans on cutting the cost difference between hybrids and non hybrids in half in less than ten years. They also plan on making a Prius A, a Prius B and a Prius C. The Prius A will be the Size of the Yaris. So if the price difference between a Yaris and a Prius A is $1000.00 do you think people will switch? If they do will they be able to get a manual? If every car in the Toyota lineup has a hybrid option in 10 years how will that effect the percentage of manuals? Think of it this way. If the Prius A were to sell 100,000 units, the number is simply for my limited math skills, and they replaced 100,000 cars people were already driving about 91,000 of those drivers would be automatic drivers. About 9,000 of those drivers would have been manual drivers. But once in the Prius A all 100,000 would be driving an automatic. The same thing would happen to every Toyota hybrid driver that switched in the next ten years. Hybrids can only reduce the number of manuals even more than they already are. And if Toyota offers a Hybrid option on every car how long before Honda and Nissan do the same?
When I go rock crawling with my son we have more than our share of manuals. We realize the advantages they offer. We even prefer them for towing rigs. But guess what? If you remember my quest for a 3/4 diesel tow rig with a manual? He has run into the same thing. He has found a 2004 Dodge 3500 with all the options he wants on it and a great deal to boot. But one thing it doesn't have is a manual.
At least that is my reasoning on the future of manuals. But I have been wrong before. They didn't shoot the guy that designed the xB.
And their review of it echoes my thoughts on this disdained transmission:
"The Outlander gives you the promise of four-cylinder fuel economy and all-wheel drive for a reasonable price compared with most competitors. But you pay a steep price for the drawbacks, including the virtually unreadable-in-daylight gauges and instrument panel; the wildly erratic CVT; roaring engine, tranny, road and wind noise; rubbery steering; and the pitching suspension.
The full (very short) article is here: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080228/FREE/125599803/1528/- newsletter01
LOL!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
BMW is a very low volume very high mix manufacturer, and are one of the most profitable auto makers on the planet. They also have the most manuals.
Given that I see Toyota as the LG of auto makers, what they do or don't do doesn't so much concern me. It has been a long time since they did anything to remotely cater to anything other than the most mainstream vanilla interests. If you make something bland enough, no one complains about it.
Outside of California, the hybrid movement isn't nearly as strong. Once all the enviro-boomers get them, they will become just another vehicle.
He has run into the same thing. He has found a 2004 Dodge 3500 with all the options he wants on it and a great deal to boot. But one thing it doesn't have is a manual.
I think that is remarkable, in Michigan I have been hard pressed to find a 2500 or better diesel with an automatic transmission.
Honestly, I don't see hybrids as a threat to manuals but as someone who considers himself a Californian living in exile, I am pretty creeped out about the picture you are painting of the homeland.
I sometimes forget how different the states between the two coasts are. But Toyota is one of the big guys and they have an effect on what is sold in this state. Someone said earlier on one other forum that Toyota sold more Prius' than Ford sold Explorers. I didn't think much about it till I realized we were talking about close to 200,000 units. Not one will be a manual. We are told that gas will reach $4.00 a gallon soon. Toyotas response is they will offer a hybrid in every configuration of Toyota in 10 years. Every hybrid that is sold will be a Automatic of some kind. If Honda, Nissan, GM, and Ford follow Toyotas lead every hybrid they sell will not be a manual.
It pretty much comes down to the prediction I quoted by ZF transmissions that Europe and their manufacturers my be the last bastion for manuals. US is a lost cause and Japan looks like they could go the same way. Niche markets make profit by catering to the people that want their product and charging them through the nose to get it. That part I agree with.
It seems as if the easy way out for the manufacturers is the hybrid. That is just what they told CARB here in california more than 25 years ago when we demanded EVs by 2000. The manufacturers said it couldn't be done but they could make a hybrid. The time came GM and Ford tried to produce a EV and even Toyota had a EV Rav4 when Honda and Toyota presented the new hybrid and the EV was dumped like yesterdays news paper.
If gas prices continue to climb as they seem to and nothing is done about it or developing alternative fuels I believe we are doomed to a whole fleet of new hybrids. I also don't see BMW or Porsche making a 35MPG vehicle without a hybrid by 2012. And once you move down that hybrid path the manual is tossed out. If they find a way to bring the price of gas back down to 3 bucks or less maybe the hybrid will die on the vine. Otherwise everyone will have a hybrid or some other high mileage vehicle or they will cease to be a automotive power.
BMW already gets well over 35mpg with certain diesel models. The 335d and others will be introduced to the US in the next couple of years. I think a 123d is good for @ least 45mpg. Porsche is working on diesel as well as hybrid models.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
If porsche were to ask Audi real nice they could have a diesel. But I don't think the Porsche hybrid will make it as a 911 do you?
I'm pretty sure that BMW's Euro Diesels come w manuals and I imagine the NA versions will as well. I believe the 335d, 535d and X6 Diesels are due here in 2009.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I don't think this is the forum to debate the worthiness or unworthiness of hybrids. If someone has that much disposable income, I appreciate their purchasing such a vehicle out of the goodness of their hearts, as there is no business case to support it.
I again am afraid of coming home to a state that tells me what I can and cannot purchase, when and where I can drive, and worse yet, what I can drive.
Cars are quickly becoming not fun. Ford dumped the sport model Focus (I was thinking of the ST sedan, but they also dropped the SVT 3 and 5 doors, in fact, the hatches all together...) and replaced it with a slower, heavier model that gets the same mileage but has a fancy stereo. And they can't make enough of them, even in California. BMW has announced internet access in vehicles, using EDGE technology to browse the internet...such a shame for a manufacturer that was known for driving dynamics.
People don't want something easier, they don't want to drive at all. They want to click their heels 3 times and be transported to work and back. Its too bad, its just another sign that the standard of living is falling in this country...or me losing faith in humanity (or a combination, perhaps).
I am not trying to make a case for or against hybrids I only know they are getting almost all the press here and if the trend continues manuals will take a hit. Remember designer jeans?
It isn't what they could or should do or what some people want it is what is happening. If hybrids become the standard of fuel savings in California there will be no place for manuals in that standard. Not because a manual couldn't be made but because the driver has too much control. Remember with a hybrid it has to be green as well get good fuel mileage.
The previous generation Civic and Insight were both available with manual transmissions, IIRC. There is no reason they have to be mutually exclusive. I don't think "green" means no "driver control." Our Subaru is supposedly a PZEV, which is the same rating applied to hybrids (full disclosure: it might be a ULEV, I'm not willing to go in the snow to check right now).
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I would LOVE to own one of these:
320d touring promotional video
Sounds like we might get this:
2009 BMW 335d
This is fun:
"Top Gear" 535d test and comparison to gasser
I recommend the following only to "Top Gear" fans, as it is l-o-n-g and is more about the Top Gear boys than the car.
"Top Gear" 6-part series about racing a used 3-series diesel in a 24hr race
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
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From a functional standpoint, some ATs had gotten quite good. BMWs were excellent, some GM, etc. But, now they have gotten too techy for their own good (smart I guess you could say).
Lots of tests slam the tranny, usually for being slow to downshift, and too quick to upshift. And not being very well mannered while doing it. Too many gears to hunt through, and logic that wants to maximize FE, so upshift ASAP!
Sometimes sport mode seems to help, but it probably takes manual mode (still with some lag) to come close to having it in the gear you want. But since most people will leave it in auto, not of much help.
Plus, if you are in auto mode, you can't quickly get it into manual and drop some gears.
the whole "lug, so floor it, then get slammed back into your seat as the engine redlines, so you back off and immediately go back to top gear" drivning experience is what bugs me most about ATs. Although the 5 series I drove seemed like it was wired into your central nervous system somehow!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
It all depends on the implementation, I suppose.
Anyone know why Ford dropped the CVT for the Five Hundred/Freestyle?
The adaptive logic in my '00 Fiver is very good indeed, that said it still comes in handy to "manually" downshift on hills sometimes. I hate riding the brake.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
ZF does make the best automatic trannies in the world hands down.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
andys120, "Mystery car pix...." #15721, 6 Mar 2008 10:48 am
reminded me of Stirling Moss. Anyone have an opinion whether shifting with one's left hand makes you a smoother, faster driver?
Only if you're Left Handed.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Best Regards,
Shipo