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I believe this trans is closely related to the GM-built Steptronic 5-Speed in my '00 528iA (E39).
There is no "hunting" or other funny business with this gearbox. Once a gear is "manually" selected it is held until redline and the TC is locked resulting in much better throttle response.
My only [non-permissible content removed] is that if left in manual mode it reverts to first when the vehicle is stopped which can be pretty annoying once you proceed with the vehicle revving along in first. I've learned to avoid this by simply putting the shifter back into Auto just as you'd put it in neutral with a stick shift.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
That's not significantly better than what a Yaris or Fit can do. Maybe 20-30% better. But then you have to factor the battery cost.
It's not going to end up being cheaper.
One novel idea is you would buy the car, but lease the batteries. That way you're not hit hard with battery replacement costs.
This article was in my local paper today.
The electric utility is doing a test on plug-in hybrids.. They discuss cost-per-mile.
regards,
kyfdx
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In the summer our electric bill is usually less then 40 dollars a month for a 1,500 square foot house.
Duke said the cost per mile for the PHEV is between 2 to 4 cents versus between 8 and 20 cents a mile for a conventional vehicle
But....
costs about $10,000 on top of the roughly $23,000 sticker price on the Prius
and...
running the battery below its rated range reduces its life.
So what you really should do is amortize that $10,000 over whatever the average life of the battery will be.
My Garmin has a Li-ion battery that lasted about 4 years. Laptop batteries are lucky to make 3. I hope these automotive units are a lot more robust.
and what do you mean by the TC being locked? Do you mean its locked out? So if you put it into D, the rpms would actually be lower than having it in 5?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
In a mass production setting, you'd have to guess the cost would be half, or less..
Obviously, we need a big leap in battery technology to make it really work well... Not to mention the ecological impact of all those batteries and coal-burning power plants... :surprise:
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Are they up to the task as a road cruiser? Not today they aren't but it is a far better direction if we are indeed in danger of using up oil reserves. If we have plenty of oil that is a different question.
I do agree we need a giant leap in battery technology but we need a giant leap in fuel cell technology as well. The key is if we turn to technology to solve our fuel usage problem the manual at the hands of the average driver is a weak link. The CVT or an automatic can be programed for maximum fuel usage and clean air, a human with a manual cannot. I agree as long as we have gas powered sports cars we may see some form of manual but hybrids and EVs simply have no need for them. I also agree that as long as I have toys that require a tow rig for weekends I will have to have a gas or diesel powered truck. But I could easily live with a EV during the week. (now that I don't have to commute I can have a different perspective.
My new stick shift Matrix is 10% MORE fuel-efficient than the exact same car with an auto, and 100% more fun to drive! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
However the 10 percent more fuel efficient that you give to the stick is still less fuel efficient than a Hybrid, a vehicle you defended strongly to me when you had the old Matrix. I would contend you would sacrifice the fuel mileage offered by a hybrid for the fun of owning a manual? You have had several chances to buy a hybrid and have decided to pass each time. Could it be you value fun more than fuel mileage?
and that's not even taking into account the hydrocarbons used for war...
It makes 41 mpg in my routine driving, so its replacement needs to make at least 41 mpg as well. I am pinning my hopes on Honda.
But the hybrid trend towards automatic has given me pause. If Honda were to come out with a super-handling hybrid CRX (CRZ concept) that only came in automatic, I wonder if I would cave and go for the auto? It would need to make at least 50 mpg in routine driving.
I guess I have two years before I will know the answer, and I continue to hope fervently that Honda will offer a stick as well as the CVT in that model. I mean, it is SUPPOSED to be a sporty model, even if it WILL have a hybrid powertrain. IMO, sporty models are supposed to offer a manual.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Unfortunately, it's $80k price tag, 5 seats (vs. 7) and black color (impossible to keep clean) mean that it is an unlikely replacement for our slushbox MDX. However, the sales manager still offered to tempt me with a test drive when I go to pick up my 911. And, who knows, if they still haven't succeeded in exorcising the gremlins out of my convertible top, maybe I'll just hand them the 911 keys and tell them I'll keep the GTS until they do.
-Frank
I suspect they have. A golfing buddy just paid a termination fee and broke his lease 4 months early on a Range Rover Sport Supercharged to get into a Cayenne GTS. He was planning on waiting until his lease was up in September to shop for a replacement, but as soon as he test drove the GT-S two weeks ago, he terminated early. I had only riden in - and not driven - his Range Rover, so I won't be able to do a direct comparison. But, according to him, there is "absolutely no comparison" in the handling and performance between the Cayenne GT-S vs the RRSS. As he put it, "one's a very nice truck, the other is a 911 with seating for 5 adults".
When he heard that my dealer had a 6-speed manual version, he practically offered to drive the 50 miles to my house and take me to the dealer so that we could test drive it together.
I will post my evaluation.
I wish you luck but I am not as optimistic as you. I believe hybrids and alternative fuel vehicles are in our future. When fuel gets so expensive that alternatives begin looking good then other forms will become more plentiful. Hybrids may be the stop gap and not one I happen to care for but I think soon the Idea of a "sporty" commuter car will be viewed like smoking in a public place. In this regard the enthusiast and the advertising for their cars may be their own worst enemies.
Things won't change for some time I am sure and your two year wait may be within the window. I think things will level off as soon as they get what they want out of the consumer for oil. After all the real problem right now isn't supply it is futures trading. However I took the leap and picked up my new RV yesterday. Looking forward to our first shake down trip the beginning of next month. I expect to have some kind of EV for local shopping before the end of the year. Gotta do something to pay for the fuel in the RV.
No manual available, of course. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I would typically get about 27 mpg in my normal commute with a 4 cyl maunual trans Contour (when temps are not too cold). With my first tank in my new automatic Mazda6, I only got the city figure...but temp was less than 15 most of the time.
I'll be interested to see if I get the mileage I would expect, based on the Contour I think I should get maybe 26 mpg as the city figure is the same, but highway is a bit lower for the Mazda.
Now that my Mazda6 automatic is broken in (I am approaching 11,000 miles) and the weather is milder, I seem to be getting what I had expected. Just finished a tank and got 26.6 mpg in my normal commute. So this seems to confirm for me that there is no longer any mpg advantage to a manual transmission.
I have owned both manual and automatic Matrixes (I currently own the manual) and over 20K miles I averaged 31-32 mpg in the automatic, am now averaging 34-35 mpg in the manual over a similar number of miles.
The manual shift saves me about 10% in gas costs in the Matrix, which with all the driving I do and the current gas prices is an actual, double digit, dollar figure in my pocket every month. Like a $20 bill. Just for switching from automatic to manual. I also enjoy driving the manual a lot more.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Wouldn't the plural of Matrix be Matrices?
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Because it is a formal name, I think it should be Matrixs. ;b
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
You do in order for the results to have any meaning
You know if just occurred to me that 20 years ago, most people bought manuals because they were $750-1,000 cheaper and they got better gas mileage. Now it seems that the fun-to-drive quotient is a bigger factor in many instances. Or maybe my perception is skewed by the participants here?
-Frank
Back when I had said that the practical reasons for owning a manual were disappearing, I had said in many cases mpg was the same (or nearly so) and the number of gears was the same. That is not the case for the Matrix and was not the case back when I had a Contour. It is true for my Mazda6.
Some felt that in the real world a manual would do better even if EPA numbers said otherwise. So my post is about that as well. As near as I can tell this is not the case for me. I have not found the EPA numbers to be more optimistic for an automatic than they are for a manual.
The contour was rated 28 mpg and I typically got 27, the Mazda6 was rated 26 combined and I am now getting 26.
I don't think that can be right, otherwise if my other kid were to buy a Focus, we'd have to write "we have two Focuss in the family".
So what would you say? 2 Focii?
I would guess 2 Focuses right? :confuse:
but I had to look it up, although I pretty much suspected this was the answer (my suggestion for Matrixs was kind of a half joke, as I was thinking "it wouldn't be Joness"). According to this source, we would need to add "es" to Focus.
They don't mention specifically when it ends in "X," but I presume the same rule applies.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The mind your P’s and Q’s example reminded me that I have always wondered what the plural of Mazda6 is...so now I know it is Mazda6's. I never wanted to write Mazda6s, especially since the Mazda6 s is the V6. Mazda6es looks really dumb. But then Mazda6's seems like it will be confusing since I might also refer to my Mazda6's engine...which sounds like maybe I have more than one Mazda6, even though if I really had more than one it would be my Mazda6s' engines...but then people might think that meant I have a V6...or two
Watch it, without those "stupid little dolls" you wouldn't have any idiotic customers to sucker into buying new Range Rovers....
....Like the otherwise very intelligent engineer that works for me that paid $80k+/- for a loaded HSE in May, 2005, drove it for less than 35k miles, washed and waxed it practically every weekend and now can't sell, trade or dump it for more than $35k. I told him if he really liked the RR to buy used or lease, because they hold their value like month old rotten fruit, but he didn't listen. Add to the $45k+ cost of depreciation the stress its put on his marriage. His wife wanted a 7 passenger MDX that would have cost him $42k in 2005 and would now be worth $30k on a new MDX trade. At least I've catered to my (British) wife's soft spot for the boxy RR by buying no fewer than 4 of them over the past 15+ years at no more than 50-60 cents on the dollar.
Sorry for the digression, but I find it humorous that anyone selling new Range Rovers would use the stupid bobblehead doll analogy. Kettle is really calling the pot black on that one.
The Cayennes make me feel like a bobble head doll because the ride is so stiff compared to a Range Rover. It is frankly too stiff for a SUV that sits that high off the ground. That kind of ride is fine in a sports car or sports sedan but in a SUV sitting up so high makes it very uncomfortable.
I don't know where you are going with your talk on deprecation or that I am talking about people as stupid dolls or something. Like I said you are confused I am only talking about the ride of the Cayenne being uncomfortable.
Plus how do you know I don't advise people to buy used Range Rovers? The fact is that I do advise people to buy used ones and save 20,000-30,000 dollars but they don't want to. The want the latest and greatest model even if it looks just like the old model. I tell people take advantage of the good lease deals when they come around or deal with the typical 15,000 dollars a year in deprecation on a new Range Rover.
Its not like depreciation on a Cayenne is any better. Go take a look at 2004 and 2005 Cayenne prices right now. Those vehicles sold for between 70,000 and 80,000 new once you factored in all the extra options you have to buy to get up to a decent equipment level. They are being listed for sale now in the Low 40,000 range to high 30,000 range.
Different strokes for different folks is all. I prefer the ride in the Range Rover, well really the Range Rover Sport, over the Cayenne.
The crawl ratio on a Land Rover is lower then all production SUVs available in the US with the exception of the H3 with the 4 to 1 transfer case and the Rubicon with 4 to 1 transfer case.
But, since we are on the subject of SUV's and off-road capabilities, I'd like to know why even the most off-raod capable have mostly (all) gone to slushboxes? I can't believe that, in the hands of someone that knew how to drive one, a manual transmission wouldn't offer greater control and capabilities. Even in 18" of snow a few years back, my wife was able to rock our Isuzu Trooper out into the street when the neighbor was stuck watching in his Jeep Grand Cherokee.
I suspect the answer will be that there are numerous electronic nanies and controls that make up for a lousy slushbox transmission, but what I really suspect is that the SUV manufacturers know that 90% of their buyers couldn't drive a stick to the soccer field if their life depended upon it. The heck with all of these hybrid tax credits and greenie political crap. Simply mandate that all SUV's must come with a manual transmission and bingo, you'll cut fuel consumption in the country by 30% overnight as all of the soccer moms and dads scramble out of their Explorers and Escalades and into mini-vans, where they belong!
Funny.
Your question on using an auto-box in SUVs is interesting. I can't speak to snow as in your example but in mud/ desert/ rock environments an auto-box with which can be geared down generally allows slower and more gradual crawling than any except the most deft manual shifter can pull off.
I hate to say it but an auto is often more effective in serious off-roading.
The caveats are if the transmission is not cooled, an auto will heat up fast under pressure. Weight is the other that I can think of, carrying extra weight is not a positive.
Sorry, did I forget to show my off or related topic hall pass? I don't know when I have been in a forum that didn't allow some rabbit chasing but thanks for your correction. :P
I know much of that was a rant but I have to ask about this hyperbole;
Even in 18" of snow a few years back, my wife was able to rock our Isuzu Trooper out into the street when the neighbor was stuck watching in his Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Did your Trooper have 18 inches of ground clearance? Most times once the pumpkin or frame hits even mudders lose traction no matter what transmission you are using.
Hear hear! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I regularly see the outline of the trailer hitch and exhaust outlets of our Subaru imprinted in the road after a good snow. They car seems to have no problem continuing forward, however. This is thanks in part to the 2 limited slip diffs and AWD.
Some say Porsche will call it by the intitials PDK (from the German for Porsche Double-clutch) which Porsche used when it first employed the DSG type shifter for racing inthe 1980's.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Manual transmission will still be standard, of course..
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Take a look at Four Wheeler magazines annual off road competition for the past few years and nearly every winner has been an automatic.
will be introduced on the 2009 911 Carrera.
I, for one, am excited.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm a hard-core manual transmission person for my road car, but having an automatic in the Pathfinder (with a real low-range transfer case) has proven itself to be very capable. It walked us up a trail known as the "back road to Crown King" within a few months of its delivery, and did a fine job.
Autos are great for serious (or even semi-serious, which is me) off-road rock crawling.