The Future Of The Manual Transmission

ny540i6

OUCH!!!

bristol2

I am the lucky recipient of a 70 mile commute to work through winding hills with occasional passing lanes and occasional farm/extremely old folks in Buicks traffic. There are a couple of spots that are perfect for runs up to 'very fast indeed' before a quick down-shift and application of the brakes!

It's a nice chance to really push when necessary and just enjoy the scenery if not.

ateixeira

My Miata makes about 0 lb-ft of torque until you really rev it. It's not even alive until 4000rpm.

Of course I also get 28mpg in a city commute, so I can't complain.

elias

hey there ny540i6. i've been doing ok and hope you and all the other readers are doing well too. lately my diesel VW with snow tires is parked most of the time, except when i drive up to the mountains to ski. aside from whining about diesel prices i've been enjoying the 'bargain' gasoline prices and the Holden torque. also looks like i might have the opportunity to commute cross-country in a couple months - I might drive the Holden this time. Not too much shifting is necessary for ~6000 miles on I80 & I90 - shifting pattern is, get on highway, shift up to 6th gear quickly, drive until it's time to refuel car and/or defuel self. An occasional downshift to 5th to blast around a left-lane-slowpoke.
One thing that will make the drive nice is the Sirius/XM merger, so I can listen to baseball too!

scwmcan

I had a differnt incentive, broken clutch cable in an old Volvo, sort of forced to drive without the clutch, hard to stop and start without the clutch though, thankfuly it was only to get the car home.
Scott

nippononly

I have just returned from a trip to Europe, and I can officially say I am no longer worried about the future of the manual. Every single car I looked in, both in France and England, was a stick, and these were made by all our automakers here in the North American market. Clearly, they have not forgotten how to make them or sell them in mass quantities. I may just have to begin importing my cars from Europe in future if they withdraw this option from the NA market! ;-)

It was kind of funny to see vehicles with sticks in them that would never EVER have a manual here: most vans and delivery trucks, Land Rovers, Fords including the Mondeos, wagons and all, big Volvos, etc. Of course, GM markets the Opel and Vauxhall brands in France and England respectively, and all those were in evidence as manuals in the same proportion as the European brands. Toyota, king of the automatic in the States, is clearly still very much in the stick shift business in Europe.

I knew the numbers, but it was just kind of nice to get visual affirmation. Breathing a sigh of relief here... :-P

bumpy

I may just have to begin importing my cars from Europe in future if they withdraw this option from the NA market!

Importing old cars from Europe, rather. Don't forget about those pesky importation rules.

ny540i6

I may just have to begin importing my cars from Europe in future if they withdraw this option from the NA market!

Just buy Bimmers.

nippononly

"Bimmer" is on my watch list. I expect them to go out of the stick shift business in North America, except perhaps for especially hard-core models like the M3, not long after Toyota and Mercedes make it official.

I should add that the one brand that stood out in Europe as very RARELY offering a manual was Mercedes.

ny540i6

I'd almost agree with you about BMW, except I reserve judgement until I see how the 1 series does, with or without a manual. The 1 has the potential to refocus BMW on the whole "Ultimate DRIVING Machine" thing, and as such, manuals will be a part of that mix.

Not sure how much of this is me wishing, however it is my opinion. I know that in my generation of the 5 series (E 39), the 540 sport sold well with a manual, and I believe that used values are actually higher with a manual than with an auto.

andys120

For sure if you move to Europe all your problems with availability of manuals are solved but there are two thing that drive that. Gas prices are even more expensive than here and practically everyone knows how to drive a stick.

Since none of those applies here you'd best keep your Passport up to date.

ny540i6

Not too much shifting is necessary for ~6000 miles on I80 & I90 - shifting pattern is, get on highway, shift up to 6th gear quickly, drive until it's time to refuel car and/or defuel self. An occasional downshift to 5th to blast around a left-lane-slowpoke.

Hey, good luck with the road trip. It's been a few years since I did something like that, and I kinda miss it. One tip that might allow you to still have a license at the end... CRUISE CONTROL!

nippononly

In Paris, regular gas was selling at 1.47 Euros/liter, or about 5.4 Euros/gallon. At the current exchange rate, that's about $8.25/gallon. ;-)

Of course, a can of Coke costs 2-3 Euros in most places, so it's all relative. There wasn't much street traffic, just a gazillion parked cars. Everyone (including me) rode the Metro.

andys120

Theses comparisons of the cost of a gallon of fuel to a gallon of milk/orange juice/Pepsi/Coke/Bottled water are a pretty non-logical way of looking at it IMO.

I'll venture to guess that not many of us buy milk/orange juice/Pepsi/Coke/Bottled water etc 20 or 25 Gallons at a time and consume it all in a week or ten days.

nippononly

No, I think you missed the point. In those comparisons, people are not trying to suggest that many folks consume as much of those items as they do of gasoline, they are merely offering a standard of reference that is easy for the reader to compare to. Which is all that I was doing too. My point generally was that while that price sounds really high in American dollars, that is at least partly because the dollar totally sucks on the global market now, and for the locals there in France the gas price isn't as bad as all that. Still worse than ours gallon for gallon, but probably not as much of an impact on their daily lives as $4 gas is here, because they have much better options available as far as fuel economy and public transit.

ateixeira

We use about 5-6 gallons a mile per week in my house, at $4 per gallon, ouch.

I use my Miata for commuting only, about 26 miles per day, so that's about 5 gallons per week.

So I actually do spend more on milk than I do on gas for my Miata.

I do have a 2nd car - a minivan for weekends. But still, I thought I'd share since that is kind of funny.

kyfdx

I have a 14-yr-old that is almost 6', 170 lbs.... :surprise:

I quit adding up everything that we spend..

elias

thanks ny540, looks like maybe i'll be conventional and fly this time. coincidentally the airfare always seems to match the cost of diesel fuel if I were to drive the TDI.
ps, don't think you've duped anyone with your miscounted 17 & 1 for the Pats - you know it was 18 wins, just like any other Gints or Jets fan! We gotta count the 18 carefully since the 1 loss was rather stupefying to New England.

now for a new subject: have any of you had to drive a manual car with one arm for an extended time? 11 years ago I drove a 96 Z28 this way for weeks, steering and shifting with my left arm/hand. it was due to a wrist 'ressection', right arm in cast as well as a huge foam borg-like cube - wrist never allowed to be below heart, vertically. I commuted daily this way for a month. the LT1 torquey ability to skip gears was very handy.
shifting actually wasn't that tough, except when it was necessary to turn.

stever

Stick-shift = car theft deterrent (Straightline)

nippononly

I don't even bother locking my car any more! :-P

I know that whenever I ask to drive a stick shift on a test drive at dealerships, they always give me a bit of an anxious look and say something like "you have DRIVEN a stick before, haven't you??".

Of course I have, otherwise why would I ask to drive one?! :-)

And I have lost more than one salesman to the stick shift request - replaced by someone who is actually able to pull the car around and then park it afterwards.

explorerx4

i read a story not too long ago about a car jacking. the thieves shot the victim when they realized the car had a manual transmission.
the lesson is to run run like hell if you have to give up your stick shift vehicle. :sick:

boaz47

"And I have lost more than one salesman to the stick shift request - replaced by someone who is actually able to pull the car around and then park it afterwards."

we have been to the same dealers I think. My wife and I stayed at a Hotel a few weeks ago and only one person at the Valet desk could drive stick.

mcdawgg

Same happened to me. Sales woman was happy to show me the car, but when I asked to test drive it, she got uncomfortable and finally admitted that she could not drive a stick. She just had me drive it out of the parking space out back, and park it when I was done, while she sat in the passenger seat!!

ateixeira

I used to valet park back in college, for beer money.

Driving stick was a pre-requisite.

hudsonthedog

Same happened to me. Sales woman was happy to show me the car, but when I asked to test drive it, she got uncomfortable and finally admitted that she could not drive a stick. She just had me drive it out of the parking space out back, and park it when I was done, while she sat in the passenger seat!!

I had a very similar situation with a saleman in 1992. When I asked for a particular vehicle, he led me across the parking lot only to pause part way there and inform me that it was a stick. I told him that I was looking for just that in this car (automatics were rare for this model). When we got to the car, I asked for a test drive and when he returned with the keys (he hadn't even planned on OPENING the vehicle let alone test drive it), he said that "normally" he'd drive the car halfway around their test loop and that I would return the car to the dealership, but that he'd let me drive the whole loop.

As I was putting my seatbelt on, I turned to him and asked, "you can't drive stick, can you?" He shyly admitted that he couldn't.

2doorpost

75 Mile commute on Freeways here......I drive a fullsize Chevy Work Truck with the V6 and 5 speed and its all about finding 5th gear the quickest without lugging the motor and cruising at 1700 RPM all the way down the road at 25 MPG.

Shame they don't make this model in a stick anymore.

thechiefs

I feel that if someone wants a basic license, they should be required to know how to drive a stick shift. Only execption would be for those who have a disability. There's really no excuse for anyone, who's of able body not to know how to drive a stick. Think about this, if someone had no cluse how to drive a stick, would you think they would be a designated driver in a stick shift vechile. Someone on this myspace page would say no.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&FriendID=53231625&blogMon- th=4&blogDay=10&blogYear=2006

Personally this alone should be why it should be required for those, who aren't disabled who want a license to know how to drive an stick.

shipo

While I might personally agree with you, I'm thinking that there are a few folks over here that really we're nuts.

spikepark, "Honda Civic Si Sedan" #423, 9 Apr 2008 1:50 pm

Just stirrin' the pot.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ateixeira

I've taught everyone in my family, but I don't think I'd go so far as requiring it.

Maybe put a restriction on the driver's license, i.e. a class for auto-only, then another with no such restriction.

The problem then would be what about unique shifters like Mercedes uses? Would that require special licensing, too?

What about the clutchless shifter on the MR2? SMG.

What about DSG? Or Mitsu's Twin Clutch SST?

stickguy

just found out that my former car (I still regret selling this one, which is rare for me!) finally wore out.

1991 Mazda 626 4 cyl/5 speed. I put about 90K on it, and sold it to my mailman in 1998.

He just finally got rid of it, since is was getting blowby and visible smoke.

Of course, it was north of 250K on the odo, and the only mechanicals that ever gave trouble was the AC a few years back.

Best part? Still on the original clutch, and he said it was still tight and smooth.

He sure got his $3,000 or so (whatever he paid) out of that car!

mcdawgg

The high gas prices may have only one good side effect - more manuals sold.

With the higher sales of smaller cars, which can be equipped with a stick, it seems logical that we should see a few more being purchased.

I have seen more manuals on my Toyota dealer's lot, and Toyota now is saying that you can get a manual Camry in my area. When I got mine, I had to go to a different region because they did not ship manuals here - not anymore!

Well, I have always believed that you can find some good in anything, what do you think?

ateixeira

That's often true. :shades:

p0926

You use to be able to count on a manual to give you a 2-3 mpg savings but with the improvements in ATs, the current difference is probably half that.

-Frank

mcdawgg

True, but what I meant is that people want something cheap, and a manual is almost always cheaper (purchase price) than an automatic by about $900. With the small car becoming more popular, the chances someone will get a manual are higher just because small cars are available with manuals.

p0926

Okay but do they want a cheaper car or a more fuel efficient one? I think fuel efficiency is probably a higher priority (hence the popularity of hybrids). However, I'm not disagreeing with your premise that the increasing popularity of small cars should result in more MT sales.

-Frank

mcdawgg

"Okay but do they want a cheaper car or a more fuel efficient one? "

Depends on the person, but I have talked to people that have said they want both cheaper and more fuel efficient. Some have said they want more fuel efficiency, but told me that even with a more efficient car they still needed a cheaper car (less options, etc.) to deal with the higher fuel prices.

boaz47

Depends on the person, but I have talked to people that have said they want both cheaper and more fuel efficient. Some have said they want more fuel efficiency, but told me that even with a more efficient car they still needed a cheaper car (less options, etc.) to deal with the higher fuel prices.

That may be true but Toyota is planning on increasing their Hybrids to every model they produce and Toyota Hybrids will not be manuals. Not many Ford and GM Hybrids are manuals so Hybrids don't seem to be good news for manual drivers. In fact even in Japan many of the sub 1000 cc mini cars are CVTs and are not offered in manual. So for now manuals may be cheeper but for how long? The CVT has the potential on being every bit as efficient as a manual and there are fewer moving parts. Plus in theory an unlimiterd number of gear ratios to keep a small engine at optimum operating condition. The fact that they may increase the number of small car offerings doesn't have to increase the nunber of manuals being offered or driven. I believe they have offered a manual in the Civic for a very long time and from what I hear they still sell more automatic Civics than manuals.

I am beginning to believe that Plug in Hybrids may become very popular is gas continues to increase. They have even started showing some on TV and are touting numbers over 100 MPG with a full charge and a small gas or diesel motor as backup. I know they are converting some Toyota Prius here in California with after market Plug in units. It seems as if we are going to be looking for technology to help solve our fuel price problems and that technology just may not favor manual transmissions. My Wife and I have even considered getting a third car for in town errands. Something like a GEM for less than 9K. We are lucky and only need a two seat model with maybe a small bed in the back. We will have the Truck for vacations pulling our trailer with us and the 4 banger Pontiac for longer distance daily travel. Add a electric car for store runs and we may never see a manual again.

qbrozen

At the moment, we now have 2 automanual-equipped SUVs in the driveway, so I've had a lot of seat time in each of them over the past week or so. It has highlighted what is, for me at least, the most frustrating habit of these particular examples, and that is total lack of control of the lockup torque converter.

If you are going to give me manual control, then give it to me completely. I want to have a direct link between what gear I've selected and the engine RPMs. It aggravates me a great deal to select top gear yet still see my RPMs change by as much as 1k because the computer has decided it needs to do so.

My 2 examples are an '05 Pacifica and '05 XC90. The volvo's 5-speed geartronic is infinitely more responsive to my inputs and tremendously smoother than the chrysler's antiquated 4-speed, but both have this torque converter hunting I speak of.

It makes me wonder what the habits are of this ZF unit most of the media tends to praise. Does anyone know if the tranny in the bimmer 335/135 or jag (or whatever other cars its used in) still has a torque converter that is not controlled by manually shifting? I'd also be interested to know about the lower-end 6-speed auto in the 328/128.

lilengineerboy

am beginning to believe that Plug in Hybrids may become very popular is gas continues to increase. They have even started showing some on TV and are touting numbers over 100 MPG with a full charge and a small gas or diesel motor as backup.

Hybrids are a stop gap measure. No one wants to deal with the fallout from the batteries and recycling, or the KW/hr charge from plugging them in. Nor can the infrastructure support it (the midwest can barely handle everyone with there home AC on). I think alternative fuels like hydrogen and cellulose based ethanol and bio-diesel are going to be more likely.

Manuals will stick around, they will be a niche market like they are now. Or cars will be come a commodity like a light bulb or other household good.

elias

It's absurd/ignorant/silly to discuss "mpg" for a plug-in hybrid.
All sizes of engineers of all possible genders know this.
Imho there is a place for plug-in-hybrid as well as non-plug-in-hybrids. Hybrid capability will be built into/onto automatic transmissions as a standard feature, or something close to that.

A plug-in-hybrid is great idea for someone who has a windmill or photovoltaics on their property, or who lives in an area where off-peak-electricity from the grid is abundant/cheap. But if I see a plug-in-hybrid owner mention "mpg" I plan to intimidate them with my slide-rule and pocket-protector collection - scary, huh?

ps - seems like hybrids are indeed contributing to the demise of manual transmissions, until someone figures out a way to build hybrid-technology
into a manual-transmission car. Personally I don't see how that can be done, but I'm not a mechanical/automotive eng.

shipo

"ps - seems like hybrids are indeed contributing to the demise of manual transmissions, until someone figures out a way to build hybrid-technology into a manual-transmission car. Personally I don't see how that can be done, but I'm not a mechanical/automotive eng."

Uhhh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the previous generation of HCH was available with a manual transmission. Yes, no?

Best Regards,
Shipo

british_rover

Yes it was and so was the Insight.

Honda's hybrid system works very well with a manual but Toyota's does not.

bumpy

The grid thing is a red herring, since the vast majority of plug-in hybrids would be charged at night when the grid is under capacity anyway.

ateixeira

It's absurd/ignorant/silly to discuss "mpg" for a plug-in hybrid.

Absolutely.

I mean, come on, how gullible are we?

Did you know my bicycle has gone THOUSANDS OF MILES and I have yet to use a single gallon of gas!?

Lance Armstrong gets more than a million miles per gallon of gasoline!

Horses are even better. The emissions though...

Pure stupidity. If you're not using gas, then you have to use a different measure.

Miles per kilowatt-hour. Something like that.

Seriously. Where is the roll eyes icon? :lemon:

stever

Miles per energy unit used?

british_rover

Miles per Joule...

ateixeira

Some sort of energy equivalent, sure.

Maybe even by cost.

Cents per mile makes sense. And you might even include battery costs in the long term, whether the life cycle is 3 years or 10.

Plug-ins will go through a lot of charge/discharge cycles, so that should be taken into account.

I commute in a Miata, and it uses about 5 gallons of gas in a week, so it costs me about $17-18.

What would it cost to charge the plug-in? By how much would my electric bill increase?

bumpy

What would it cost to charge the plug-in? By how much would my electric bill increase?

I did the math once and figured out that a pessimistic estimate of my 35-mile round trip commute @ 60 mph in a typical straight-electric subcompact was about 15 kilowatt-hours.

ateixeira

Great.

Um....

I have no idea - what would that translate to in terms of cost on your electric bill?

british_rover

About $2.58 for me.

http://www.cl-p.com/online/residential/rates/indexrates.asp

YKWMMV