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I don't know about you but I don't spend every minute of every day shifting for optimal fuel efficiency. But at the times when I want to do that, it is easy enough to do. In the Echo I pull 41+ mpg in normal use. The owners of automatic Echos struggle to break 35 mpg, even the ones trying to hypermile.
Now if you ARE one to spend the majority of the time driving for optimal fuel efficiency, then today's "learning automatics" will learn that you like upshifts as soon as possible, and even when you WANT to go out for a drive with more pizzazz in it, you will be out of luck, because you taught your transmission too well. :sick:
I think my good friend Morrison of Autoweek said it best in this week's issue, with regard to a test drive he did in a 128i, which unfortunately had an automatic rather than the proper transmission:
"I only wish this car was equipped with a manual transmission; I suspect I would have enjoyed myself more. This automatic gearbox works fine, but as always, it greatly reduces the involvement and hence the fun. I couldn't help but feel that the 128 is probably a lot better than it seems with the auto"
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
how does the toyota echo compare size-wise to Jetta TDI ? seat 4 comfy, 5 in a pinch? half-folddown rear seat for skis?
i'll take a look at one up close...
btw, the minicooper CVT was horrid - owned it for about a year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You forgot to mention the other thing all manual devotees know. Mileage between one manual driver and another can vary as well. Chances are if you have a teen age boy he will get a lot less than the EPA average. A daughter might get average and the wife might get better than average. I am not about to suggest what the average husband gets but my wife was at least 15 percent better at fuel sipping than I was in the Focus. However with an automatic we are almost even, and the son has moved out.
I don't see any difference with an automatic, if you push the gas harder, it holds the shifts longer, usually returning worse gas mileage than the same behavior with a manual transmission.
I am not about to suggest what the average husband gets but my wife was at least 15 percent better at fuel sipping than I was in the Focus. However with an automatic we are almost even,
But lower overall than either of you got with the manual :P
Rather than give up the stick I moved to NH where there's little traffic and a manual can really be enjoyed. In fact I still give my Steptronic a pretty good workout when driving in the hilly country here.
Having said all that I can't blame my friends who gave up their third pedal after slogging thru NYC or Boston traffic for many years.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I assume you drove a manual for 40 years because you found it to be a better choice than an auto though. The folks I'm referring to are the "bench racers" that can recite tons of stats as to the theoretical advantages, without ever having spent one day behind the pedals.
As an aside, I recently had a bout with a right shoulder injury - working out, screwed up doing pulldowns. It was extremely painful doing lateral and lifting motions, including shifting.... spent a lot of time getting to 6th using the 1-3-6 method... and I chose an auto tranny for a lot of commuting when possible, but ironically I've never had a huge problem with the clutch action, which is what most people complain about. I just find that most modern clutches are not any significant effort - clutches are really light, even in high horsepower applications, and that the control, flexibility and enjoyment levels are worth it.
Yes, yes, 10 times YES! This is what most people seem not to know. I suspect that lots of people complaining about using a clutch in traffic gave up doing so and went to the dark side many years ago, when some clutches were really heavy and annoying. Today you could drive a Mustang V-8 for an hour or two in stop and go with nary an ache in your leg. Certainly in cars like mine that are designed for commuting, I could drive all day in stop and go, no big deal. It has a delightful clutch - very light, but precise in engagement.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The key here is to realize that 90 percent is never coming back and the number of manuals offered will always be attacked by new technology. Sporting enthusiasts might not care but commuters will and the few that aren't interested in automatics will have fewer and fewer choices. The question in the US isn't if manuals will be dropped from mainstream vehicles but rather when? If as it has been suggested MB, Toyota, GM, Nissan and Ford drop them from the cars the average consumer buys how long before everyone else does as well?
No one can put a date to it but I am sure almost everyone sees the end of the manual will come with the new direction we are taking in vehicles. Hybrids, EVs, alternative fuel vehicles aren't likely to come with manuals even if some hope they will.
You are more than likely correct that you will have a manual option as long as you are able to drive but how many vehicles will you not be able to get with a manual, that is the question.
wasn't it you that said you believed MB would be the first to drop manuals in the US? Do you feel Toyota will be that far behind? Remember Toyota wants to have a hybrid in every model of their vehicles in the next ten years, I posted the quote earlier. even if that is every vehicle it is the hybrid option in every model including something the size of the Yaris. If fuel prices are still oil driven in ten years what does that do for the future of the manual by Toyota in the US in ten years? The EPA is looking at stricter standards every year as well, how will that effect manuals? I believe it will be a negative impact on manuals in commuter cars within ten years. Maybe not to zero but to the point where the bean counters will look at why they need two transmissions and I don't believe manuals will ever replace automatics unless they are minus a third pedal.
Well, I said that about Mercedes when they had exactly ONE model with ONE trim available with a manual remaining in their lineup. While I still think their commitment to the manual in the States is very weak, I now hear serious rumblings about them bringing A- and B-class cars here so as to be more competitive in a downsizing market that is seeking fuel economy. I bet those models will have standard manuals, if they arrive in the next 3 years. So we may have to push the timeframe out a little on my comment.
As for Toyota, they will keep the manual in all their under-$20K cars for a while just because they are so price-conscious - it is becoming a company run by the marketing department, and that department loves to be able to advertise rock bottom base prices. The manual is by far the cheapest transmission they can install, in fact the premium on the sticker for an automatic has risen well above $1000 now, much to my surprise.
Will CVTs ever reach cost parity (for the manufacturer) with manuals? Maybe. Among the major Japanese companies, Toyota is demonstrably the least excited about CVTs.
What I would LIKE to see is a return to the days when manual-shift models were properly geared to take advantage of their superiority in fuel economy, not geared to be the much faster of the two transmissions. With properly geared manuals we could see a significant increase in fuel economy among smaller cars (excluding hybrids), and with the gas crunch they should start gearing them that way. Toyota does take small steps in that direction all the time. The latest example: the stick shift 2WD 4-cyl Tacomas are rated 20/26 for 2009, whereas they were at 20/25 for 2008. The automatics are unchanged. Toyota would do well to bring that type of improvement to all of its stick shift models - it would be an advantage over other automakers that it could trumpet loudly in advertising, which would be very effective right now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
First off, lack of proper technique is not an issue here, any more than someone complaining that lack of knowledge how to ride is reason why one motorcycle is quicker on twisty roads than another.(ie - any idiot, as I pointed out can mash the pedal to the floor).
It's the in-between speeds and transitions that are impossible to deal with as efficiently in an automatic.
- You can't keep most automatics in a specific gear 100% of the time, so often there's a second or so of lag and time it take to decide which gear, unlock the torque converter, and then get the rpms up. A properly driven manual, thanks to your brain figuring out and anticipating the traffic around you, has kept the thing in 2nd gear and so you can lunge at an opening without shifting.
I deal with the dreaded Los Angeles Traffic(tm) every day and I blow past cars twice as fast as I am 0-60 or get into spaces before they can all the time because I'm already at 3500rpm and ready to go.
- It's doubly apparent in any situation where there is traffic and a twisty road. I can leave my vehicle's transmission in 3rd and not shift for several minutes. This gives me 100% concentration on my driving, just like the automatic, but the thing isn't shifting into top gear at 35-40mph when I let off the gas to enter a turn to tap the brakes a bit to slow down. (virtually all automatics even in manu-matic mode will do this annyoing behavior)
- Clutches are silly light now. Go test drive an Accord with one. It's like an arcade game switch more than anything else. It takes as much effort as the gas pedal, honestly. I shift the clutch maybe 5-10 times on a typical 15 mile trip home in rush hour traffic since I leave it in 2nd or 3rd all of the time. Sure, my leg gets a little sore on days like this last Saturday when I had to drive to the airport and back - about 25 miles through heavy traffic each way - but it's 5% of the time at most and forgotten the second that traffic clears up and I am in control again.
- And, yes, if you do need a clutch job, it's $600-$800. $6000 to replace the transmission in a C-Class is a crime. that's ten clutch jobs, and as hard as I am on them I've only had to replace three clutches in 20 years of driving. Conversely, I've had to replace four automatics at three times the cost of the clutch jobs(why I stopped driving automatics - I just couldn't afford to fix it!)
Actually, there is no empirical data to show a CVT or slushbox is any more fuel efficient driven the same way. Their main goal is to make it so miserable to drive like that, one loses interest. There is nothing green or brown or blue about that.
You can measure ease of use and you can measure green and you can show it to the consumer. How do you show fun or feeling? With DCTs you can show shift times and track times and 0-60 times and fuel mileage and they can be programed to be green.
Some are talking about what they could do to keep manuals in the fleet. The bigger question is what are they doing? With a 90 percent market share they sure aren't pushing manuals.
Mass transit.
As of today what vehicle can the average commuter buy that gets the best fuel mileage and is still rated green? Looking on the EPA site what transmission does that best selling hybrid have?
Can you think of a current Hybrid that doesn't use a CVT? Do you think there might be a reason that particular transmission works well with that particular combination of motors and power sources?
If manuals were viable for use with the technology why not offer them?
You are making a few assumptions. 1. the hybrid is the greenest thing since sliced bread, 2. a CVT driven "normally" gets better mileage than a manual driven "normally".
How do you show fun or feeling?
Wow, that is a very very good question. Why isn't everyone's house the same color, or car the same color, why do we even have different car brands? Why doesn't everyone just buy the cheapest or most expensive version of something?
I am not assuming CVT get better fuel mileage I am saying the vehicles offering the highest fuel mileage are Hybrids and they aren't being offered in Manuals for some reason.
Everywhere you look today the topic of discussion is the price of fuel and the options we have. Manuals aren't a consideration for most of those options and 90 percent of the buying public doesn't care and never will. will high powered sports cars come with a manual? Quite possible but then they aren't concerned with fuel prices or being green.
I was only pointing out that fun is hard to sell because you can't show it or measure it or even compare it to anything else. we are not talking the color of the car or the size or who makes it. We are talking what the buying public wants and what manuals offer for the future in our country. People here want to newest, most advanced and easiest to use product. We talk about things being intuitive to use and simple enough for the average person.
Look at Nissan as an example. They came out with a new SUV a few years ago and called it the Murano, and from day one there was no reason to offer a manual. They took a popular car like the Maxima and stopped offering the manual even over the objections of the "enthusiasts". They came out with the Rouge and once again not bothering with a manual. And now we will get the new super skyline and once again?
Even after reading the stellar reviews of the racetrack and overall performance of the new double-clutch automated manual transmissions on the Evo X and GT-R, some enthusiasts are still holding out for ye olde fashion manual transmissions. Well, better get used to it folks - this is more than the wave of the future: it's already here today and is actively offered and promoted on the latest leading-edge cars.
The double-clutch automated manual offers every possible advantage to the overall performance envelope of the car. It shifts better and faster than any human can, and almost always produce better mileage and/or emissions (2 areas which will improve as further experience is gained). And it can be electronically tuned to produce fantastic results on the racetrack when teamed with multi-dimensional accelerometers and related sensors.
In the future you'll see fewer old-style manual transmissions offered in performance cars. The days of manufacturers investing in old-style transmissions are ending. Ask Getrag, Tremac, Aisen, Borg-Warner, and other companies what they are working on and you'll hear all about this type of transmission. The only exceptions are where the market will not bear the cost of development due to low price and low volume. For example, given the very limited sales volume of vehicles using the Tremac TR-6060, a replacement by an automated manual would be years off because of these limitations.
Regards,
OW
My GTI's clutch is far lighter than my tC's (which I thought was crazy light compared to a recent model Ford Ranger), and after spending nearly 2 hours stuck in heavy traffic in downtown Baltimore last week, my left leg felt great, and my right leg's calf was in a little pain from all the pivoting between the brake and the accelerator. The fact that the clutch requires a full range of leg motion helps a lot, especially with the light clutches of modern cars.
As for fuel economy with a manual, I think it's still better than most automatics even with crap drivers. I was a teenager up until a few months ago, and despite lots of hard acceleration, winding the car up all the time, and never letting the engine spin below 2000rpm in regular driving, I always beat the EPA's numbers. In mixed city and highway driving, with all my crazy ways, I generally get 27mpg. The funny thing is the DSG does things such as shift into 6th at 35mph, while at that same speed I'd be cruising in 3rd gear, yet I have no problems with my fuel economy.
I'll agree about the acceleration, but I invite you to play around with VW's UK site:
here
Check out the "which model?" button for some of their cars, then engines and performance. For all but the most powerful engines, the manual still winds up being significantly more fuel efficient than the much lauded DSG.
On an unrelated note, the manual transmission will still exist for as long as there are companies who want to undercut the competition's "starts at" price on economy cars.
I heartily agree. Also, I think most dedicated sport models will carry them for many years yet, as it is not just the drag racing times (and associated shift times) that matter with such cars, but also the quality of driver involvement in the drive, which is so enhanced with a manual, and much closer to NIL with an automatic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
To me it is just a bit like two stroke motorcycles and jet skies. They had many advantages one being self super charging the other being ease of repair and lastly they were a lot lighter. Some made fine street bikes and some jet skies were pretty small and light as two strokes. But even if the RD 250, 350 and 400 were great handling street bikes they were doomed by technology and the EPA. Performance be darned they were dropped. At some point their numbers simply don't encourage the manufacturers into offering them except in a few special cases.
This is the main problem that I have with them and automatics. I can keep it from shifting up a gear but not down automatically. The DSG seems to want to lock up that torque converter as soon as it can from what you are saying.
I think Alfa Romeo(?) is the only company where their manu-matics are actually true manuals in their behavior - so you have to shift and down like a manual. If you leave it in 3rd, it stays in 3rd until the thing runs out of gas or something breaks.
And that's the problem I have that turns me off from these things. With my manual, I don't *have* to shift at all as I wind up a mountain road. I just leave it in 3rd and go, enjoying ample engine braking coming into the curves and good power coming out - without any shifting. This makes braking and steering very simple as the engine behaves in a logical manner. The last automatic I had, well... I'd go over a hill and back down and the thing would go into overdrive or a really tall 3rd gear that might as well have been overdrive. Then make a thunk as it downshifted and realized that it was at 1500rpm and needed to be at 4000 to get up the next hill. Nasty.
Well, considering that the DSG has no torque converter and that both clutches in its design are fully engaged at all times, I don't think we're on the same page.
I think Alfa Romeo(?) is the only company where their manu-matics are actually true manuals in their behavior - so you have to shift and down like a manual. If you leave it in 3rd, it stays in 3rd until the thing runs out of gas or something breaks.
Most, if not all, torque converter manumatics as well as all automanuals (be it single- or dual-clutch) will hold the selected gear unless the RPM is too low to prevent the engine from stalling, in which case they'll automatically downshift. Some will upshift automatically at redline or at the rev limiter - the DSG is one of those gearboxes.
And that's the problem I have that turns me off from these things. With my manual, I don't *have* to shift at all as I wind up a mountain road. I just leave it in 3rd and go, enjoying ample engine braking coming into the curves and good power coming out - without any shifting. This makes braking and steering very simple as the engine behaves in a logical manner. The last automatic I had, well... I'd go over a hill and back down and the thing would go into overdrive or a really tall 3rd gear that might as well have been overdrive. Then make a thunk as it downshifted and realized that it was at 1500rpm and needed to be at 4000 to get up the next hill. Nasty.
Well the behavior I mentioned in my last post is only when you put the DSG in Drive. There is also the Sport mode, which I think is utterly useless as it holds gears way too long and well outside of the 2.0TFSI's powerband, as well as the manual/Tiptronic mode. The DSG-equipped GTI I ride/drive the most is always shifted in manual mode by its owner. It offers most of the gear selection control of the manual, with the exception of that annoying upshift at/just past redline. Hell, the DSG even allows you to hold 1st gear and/or downshift into it all day long, something which my brother's manumatic Acura doesn't allow you to do unless you're at WOT.
I hope that clears some stuff up for you.
P.S. The 1967 Mercedes 230S that I had had an electric/servo assisted clutch in it. Really interesting stuff - the clutch pedal was a level with a spring that would trip a switch. So it's not like manu-matics or automated clutches aren't brand new technology. IIRC, a couple of the Hondas also use this now - there's no actual linkage(all electronic and servo controlled), which is why it's silly light and precise.
We constantly state manuals are at 10% and it seems to have been that way for some time, suggesting that manuals are 'going nowhere'.
But that's the funny thing about the numbers, if manuals are at 10% then it is actually slushbox automatics that are going the way of the dinosaur. Between CVT and DSG transmissions, one type of transmission has to be declining as a percentage and it looks like it is the slush-box!
I suggest we change the thread name to 'The Future of the Slushbox', because according to the numbers it is the auto that has a darker future.
Part of the decission we have had over the months is what constitutes a manual. The reasoning seems to be if it doesn't have a third pedal it isn't a manual. The slushbox isn't important because no one cares how a car shifts automatically. Many have suggested the transmissions in F-1 and WRC should be called a automatic because they don't have a third pedal. But then all of the top advanced classes of racing cars seemed to have dropped third pedals.
However if you are willing to call SMG, DCTs and such manuals I will gladly agree.
My point is that at one time all cars were manuals. someone invented a car that would shift itself and over the years people willingly gave up manuals for something without a clutch. None of them knew how the car shifted they only knew they didn't have to shift it themselves. The manufacturers saw this trend and started offering fewer and fewer manuals in fewer and fewer models.
In general the American consumer isn't interested in the manual transmission. Today while watching the news I see they have put it the first fuel cell filling stations in California. The GM and Honda Vehicles being offered in fuel cells simply aren't being offered in a manual. Maybe we can call that future tech. Toyota isn't offering manuals in the Prius line and they are planning on expanding that line into every model Toyota makes. even Nissans new super car will grace our shores without a third pedal. The odds seem to be against manuals if the fuel crisis is as bad as they say it is.
Nippon may have a valid point that as long as they want to make cheap cars for entry level there may be some manuals to choose from. If CVTs don't replace them. Even that is giving the indication that some kind of automatic will be the standard of the US at some point.
That is in one small subset of the overall population. According to SAE, America is 90% automatic, Europe is the other way around, and Japan/Asia is 70% automatic. Automatic includes anything that shifts itself, no matter how its labelled.
With the American numbers and Asia what would you conclude from those statistics? And even more interesting the heart of the small car market, Asia , is 70 percent Automatic? Maybe there is a reason European cars are such a small part or the American vehicle market.
Yo, Lem.....
Maybe you mean stays over $4??
But seriously, do you think that part of the perceptual problem with manuals in the US is the association of manual = cheap = basic transportation? I remember when I was ordering my car I had a couple friends argue, including one who asked me "How could I ruin this car with a manual tranny?
I laughed, and moved on.
And I think lemmer was trying to make a point using the tried and true method of tongue in cheek. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And space and fuel are less regarded in Asia? In the Us the consumer identifies with Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Mazda for small fuel efficient cars. The only manufacturer from Europe to get any interest in the US is VW and they have a dependability problem that has hurt them every year. But we have the 4 buck a gallon gas and then some. I would imaging this whole debate can be put to the test in the next few years. This should be an ideal situation to see if people are willing to return to manuals to save gas or if they will simply look to smaller cars with automatics. My bet is that the manufacturers will put their money on the CVT and not try to teach people to learn to drive manuals.
I thought the trend in Asia was because of countries like Japan that are so crowded, you sepnd most of your time stuck in traffic? Makes sense to go AT that way.
It still depends on the car. Engines in Europe tend to be smaller, meaning that a stick is almost a neccesity to get any performance. In the US, most cars have enough HP to handle a slushbox.
One of the car mags just finished a LT test on a G35 sport, with the manual. Basically the worst feature of the car? The clutch/shifter. THey pretty much admitted that the car with an AT (a real nice one in that car) was just nicer to use.
I'm a long term stick driver (duh!), and if I buy a little car (say a fit) it will have a stick, but If I get something big/powerful/luxo (say a TL or G35) it would be with an AT.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
This must be a set up but I will bite. You prefer the manual and you bought?
It's funny but I'm sure a lot of politicians in high positions are completely out of touch with the day-to-day realities of most American families.
When you're driven around and being protected by feds, it's not like you pump your own gas!
Loved your choice of photos, by the way.
There are 2 levels of license in some countries, 1 is for anything, the other is auto only.
Drivers with the auto-only license tend to get made fun of by everyone else so there is a pretty good peer pressure over there to maintain stick-driving.
Europeans tend to equate manual with driving and auto with riding.
Edmunds.com Gas Price Survey: 95% of Respondents report Changing Lifestyle</A
This is just about the same numbers we got with an informal survey of posters in this forum early on. Enthusiasts on a site dedicated to manuals and the majority have at least one automatic in their fleet.
You interview 1300 edmunds members and 56 percent say they wouldn't even consider driving a manual? And only 20 percent say they already are? And that is on an enthusiasts site? Did you get the part that some had switched to driving their more fuel efficient car and leaving their "regular" or "normal" car at home?
Come on guys, it has to make you hang your head to suppress a smile.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The problem nowadays is that between having to drive in heavy traffic (which tends to wear out conventional manual clutch plates faster) and relatively few manufacturers know how to build manuals with decent shift quality (I know only BMW and Honda have any idea to build a manual shifter that selects gears smoothly and positively without the vague and rubbery "feel" that plagues many manufacturers), you'd be better off with a CVT or six-speed DCT for overall driving. Is it small wonder why Ford intends to put its Powershift DCT on its Focus and Fiesta models over the next few years? (Ford already has it on the European Focus model now, and reviewers really like Powershift DCT for its fast, smooth shifts between gears.)