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I will also withhold judgment long enough to see if diesel breaks $6/gallon before year's end. :sick:
Diesel prices fluctuate wildly enough to scare me away just slightly from a diesel-powered car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There must be a million posts in CarSpace asking if it is okay to use Regular fuel in a car that recommends premium.... and, that is only a $0.20 bump.. I just can't see massive amounts of people moving to diesel when the premium is $0.50 to $0.70 per gallon...
When diesel was a 20% discount to regular, and the cars will 30% more efficient, it made sense... But, a 15% premium for diesel, negating 50% of the efficiency seem dicey...
Plus, none of the explanations for the change in price relativity makes much sense to me.... So.. what's to say diesel won't keep increasing relative to gasoline? Too scary..
Just my take on it... Diesel has to be a big savings for me to change... IMO, the driving experience is poorer compared to the same model with a gas engine...
regards,
kyfdx
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I wanna go to YOUR station.
It is 30-35 cents more around here. I think we're sitting at around $3.95 for reg, $4.10 for mid, and $4.25 for premium ... give or take a penny or 2 here or there.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Station closest to my house..
$4.09
$4.19
$4.29
Other Shells locally
$4.09
$4.20
$4.32
More or less.. Of course, we have to pump it ourselves...
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I doubt refining costs have changed much and it use to only cost 8 cents extra to produce 91 octane so station owners charging 30-35 cents more are either lining their pockets or subsidizing the cost of regular unleaded.
-Frank
Sam's undersells everyone else by around .10-.20/gal.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Report Your Local Gas Prices Here
"You took what I said out of context; people who want a manual aren't going to pay 2500 for an automatic."
I am sorry, I misunderstood.
Hybrids, for better or for worse, are a PR job. You take a car that gets pretty good mileage, add $2000-2500 worth of drivetrain and batteries, and it gets slightly better mileage. I don't see this as the future for cars.
Would I be correct in saying you don't believe Hybrids, EVs, and Fuel cells are the future of cars in the US? They are saying a plug in hybrid could get as much as 90 or 120 MPG. I believe 75 to be more realistic but that is what is being said. Even if Toyota has committed to producing a hybrid version of every model they produce by 2010? Or was it 2012 I forget?
If fuel prices drop below $3.50 a gallon you might be correct and things will remain pretty static. But I see Nippons prediction as being more likely. I have an offer out for an Insight that my daughter in laws's boss now owns. It gets 60 to 70 MPG now without a manual. I could only guess what it might get with a small diesel but where I live diesel is getting close to a buck more a gallon. That is close to 25 percent more and that will never do.
Still I don't believe hybrids and the other alternatives are a passing fancy any more. I used to before gas hit 4 bucks. But I respect Shipo's position that he would be willing to give up 20 MPG to get a manual. I believe Nippon might as well.
...or the lazy! You pick!
Regards,
OW
He would feel darn guilty doing it, but he would stil go ahead. :-(
As regards diesel, all things being equal I would rather be driving a car with a gas engine than one with a diesel. I was a big fan of VTEC! 8000 rpm redlines are my fancy.
But bring me an ultra-efficient diesel in a chassis with some moves and a 6-speed stick, and I will go for the diesel, as long as diesel looks to stay well under a 30% premium over unleaded.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
SHELL
Regular - $3.91
Mid-grade - $4.01
Premium - $4.11
Then again...
KC reports a .28 cent differential out in his corner of NJ.
Given a total of $4.48 for KC's premium, maybe me paying a 30 cent differential and still coming in under $4.30/gal is nothing to complain about. (??)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It may be that in the US the only ones that advocate for a manual clutch are in these forums. The mainstream media seems to include any vehicle you can self shift as a form of manual. I don't even understand why they put paddle shifters on a CVT but they do and from what I understand they put the shift points on so people can "feel" the car shift. But your experience sounds like Nippons old Toyota dealership that simply didn't stock any manuals. When they finally brought in a few manuals he sounded so impressed I pictured him looking like Snoopy getting ready for dinner.
Regards,
OW
After reading the edmunds survey it seems that even a majority of enthusiasts aren't interested in third pedals. Racers are interested in whatever gives them a edge so all F-1s, all Alms, and all WRCs have switched to paddles.
But people that want a manual clutch don't care what the trends are or what the track shows, they want to exercise their left foot.
Regards,
OW
Typical pricing is regular 87 octane $4.09 midgrade 89 octane $3.99 (this is less than regular because of ethanol tax incentives, and midgrade is always 10% ethanol in SD) Premium 91 octane or higher $4.19.
MT transforms a vehicle. I have said many times that I prefer my MT Accord to my brothers AT 530i.
Also not too much traffic in SD so no rush hour with the stick. It helps having the area of VA, MD and WVA combined with a population not too much more than the District of Columbia (just the district - no suburbs).
Any manual-shift car can be your little sport model with the way the stick and the clutch connect you to the machine and the fun they provide. Even silly little commuter cars and "sport wagons".
2-pedal 2-paddle "manuals" need not apply.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think there is a big difference between professional level racers and enthusiasts, as well as what racers drive on the track vs on the street. What you drive for work and what you drive for pleasure are two different things. If I was getting paid to win, I would want whatever is the fastest lightest quickest most reliable thing out there.
If I want to enjoy my commute to work, my needs are different.
I would argue those that buy a Ferrari are supporting a lifestyle more than anything else.
Well yes there is a feeling like that. Shaving .50 seconds off of your lap time and beating your best friend an a saturday comes to mind. But that is once again objective verses subjective and that is why this debate goes on so long.
The debate has never been about people who enjoy a manual it has been about what the future looks like from a American manufacturers point of view. Some of you have been extreamly honest when you admitted it went beyond fuel mileage or even cost. I understand that and agree you have a preference. But with so many consumers and enthusiasts deciding the transmission is almost less important than color or being able to talk to your radio it just doesn't seem like many people care. And with the new focus on alternative fuels and hybrids the future looks even dimmer.
You want to know a thrill? You want to feel one with the machine? You want to feel a perfect shift get a motorcycle. Try leaning into a corner just at the point where you "might" loose adhesion with the back tire going through a turn and that is one with the machine. I did that for 10 years and had to give up sequencial shifting when I went back to a car.
The reality is I have watched the manufacturers stop making my vehicle of choice. I used to love two stroke street bikes. Pound for pound they were so much faster than a four stroke and with synthetic oil they didn't smoke. But only a few of us were devoted to two strokes and no one else cared. My last five years on street bikes was on four strokes because I simply couldn't get a big two stroke.
All I am saying is sooner or later is seems as if manuals will no longer be offered to the US consumer with the possible exception of real sports cars. That is the direction the numbers seem to be pointing.
I taught my kids to drive a manual, but some don't have that opportunity.
"Nope," was his response.
"How come?", I asked.
"Don't need to," came the response.
I did run through some of the cool benefits of learning, but he wasn't taking the hook. I was willing to show him the same patience my Dad showed me.
Man, the youth are leaving off learning to drive a manual in this country, and its sliding off fast. Although I'm driving a CVT auto right now I would definitely jump back to a stick on the next rig. I am thinking, though, that manufacturers building electrically-propelled rigs aren't going to include manual tranny's as an option, ya know? I can see them all being automatics. Need more info. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That is sort of the point about hybrids I was making. The Prius was the spearhead and Honda followed their lead. EVs are all torque so manuals aren't necessary. Lots of people had been pulling for higher prices for fuel thinking it would move the US to smaller cars and more manuals but that simply isn’t what the manufacturers are offering. They went the hybrid route and that have moved people away from manuals. Just look up hybrid and see how many are being offered with a manual.
I learned when I was 14 on a Mazda 929 station wagon (overseas). My mother would even let me shift from the passenger seat when we were driving. That piqued my interest.
They both now thank me for "forcing" them to learn something new.
Now with gas prices high, the increased economy of a stick makes more sense than ever. Not to mention they are more reliable long term, and costs less up front.
I have been hypermiling with my stick, and have my economy up to 44MPG on a car rated at 29 MPG hwy. I would not be able to attain this kind of improvement with an auto tranny.
Didn't really plan it this way, but it sure seems like a good idea now..
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2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ja, PDK=Porsche DoppleKupplung (sp?)
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Local WaWa in Jackson NJ had a price of $3.89 on their regular 87 octane. Hey, not bad. But we don't use regular. My wife puts midgrade in her XC90. That was a whopping 26 cents more! $4.15 for mid and $4.26 for premium. Yikes!
Saw that kind of differential at several places. But then found the Sunoco not far from the house is $3.89/$4.05/$4.15.
Guess it might be time to start using the AMEX to buy our gas rather than the Hess card. Both get us 5% off gas, but the AMEX rebate is only once a year while the Hess is every month.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Regards,
OW
I'm a bit of a gas snob, what can I say ....
But thanks for the info.
Besides, I'd have to drive out of my way to get there, so kinda defeats the purpose.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Regards,
OW
I didn't say I actually bought it there. ;P
But, for some reason, I do trust them more than Raceway. I don't know why, however.
But you made me curious. Not that this is reliable info, but I found this post.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
-Frank
Regards,
OW
Yes, this is true. However, unwarranted as it may be, I'm more worried about what happens after it is delivered.
I mean, think about it this way. Every claim I've ever read states stations make a couple of pennies per gallon. So, assuming that is true, how can Joe Blow Gas sell for 5 cents less?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
you aren't missing anything.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Most of em make only a few cents per gallon. I know a guy who has a convenience store/gas station and he tells me he only makes a nickel or so per gallon but half goes to the credit card issuers if it's not a cash sale.
Why does he bother? To get people in the store to buy cigarettes, lottery tickets, sandwiches etc. His markup on those is quite healthy.
He likes to tell me to go somewhere else if I'm only buying gas and charging it. :P
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Oh, and the gas has no additives or MBTE. Not oxygenated or mixed with ethanol or whatever, so it actually gets 1-2mpg better in most cars from what I've heard from the people I know who go to the local place that does this.
The only downside is that you have to put some injector cleaner in every couple of months. No biggie when you're saving 40-50 cents a gallon.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)