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Where I live with few stoplights leading to long straights and lots of two lane roads you want good acceleration from 20-50.
I dunno why anyone would manually shift the automatic @ redline, most autos do that automatically. Do they mean manually shifting at the top of the torque curve which is sometimes just short of redline?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/auto-test/at-the-track-consumer- -reports-auto-test-center/index.htm
Some of the car mags will brag about how they flooged a car or how they brought in several pro drivers and took the best time of all of them for one car, yet when they test the family cars they just have a writer do a seat of the pants number.
Besides that, we are comparing apples to apples - not one tester to another.
So do they redline the car or not? Do they shift at peak hp or peak torque? Do they trigger the WOT switch or not? All I saw on that website was a picture of their facility and a blurb about how they test 0-60 multiple times in both directions (just like everybody else) and that they measure the coefficient of friction of the tarmac. They also don't mention (but I am sure they do it) how to correct for temperature and altitude (since they do all their testing at the same facility, they probably don't have to worry about altitude)
The procedure for an automatic should be something like 1. stage vehicle, 2. floor vehicle while giving as little steering input as possible driving as straight as possible 3. Exceed 60 by a significant margin (ie 70) and read from the DAS how long it took to hit 60. A manual transmission there are other variables, like when to shift, if you light up the tires at the start, how much you use the clutch, etc.
Abuse will get you a faster 0-60 (or not), but I am not going to do a brake stall on an automatic (pushing the brake and then pushing the gas until it starts to overwhelm the brake, then dropping the brake and flooring the gas) or power-shifting in a manual transmission car (kind of hard on the syncros...). Some magazines will and some wont but they ALL do provide their procedure.
Some of the car mags will brag about how they flooged a car or how they brought in several pro drivers and took the best time of all of them for one car, yet when they test the family cars they just have a writer do a seat of the pants number.
I haven't seen this so much to be the case, except when testing or evaluating press vehicles that were not able to be instrumented.
For manuals, I think they rev it up enough to take off without bogging or major wheel spin, shift at redline, and go to 60.
I think it provides some pretty useful information. I've noticed over time that their numbers correspond very closely to the car mags (plus a couple of tenths). Unlike the car mags, they never have anomalies where a car has a time out of line with everyone else.
I've given up on 0-60 times anyway. With today's faster cars and the differing testing procedures, 1/4 mile trap speed tells you more about a car's horsepower than anything else.
If the guys at Fifth Gear couldn't come remotely close to the listed times(on an actual drag strip/flat test track), you have to wonder how much of it is lying or someone doing really brutal things to that car. Even the Ariel Atom was a full second slower than the published time no matter how hard they flogged it. They asked the manufacturer about it on the show and they were adamant that it would do the listed time. The host's face was obviously showing that he wasn't buying it.
My guess is that most manufacturers do their tests on a dyno. This of course would largely negate road friction, initial time to hook up/get traction, and wind resistance. They also tend to make 2nd gear silly tall to not require a shift to 3rd before 60-65mph to get better bragging rights. But then again, seriously - have you ever kept a car in 2nd gear with an automatic until it hit the rev limiter? If it's a Ford or GM, it'll sound like the thing is about to grenade on you. No sane person would do it, which is why these figures are not even close to being realistic.
With dual-clutch transmissions getting better and better, within a few years we'll see DCT's that have the same fuel economy as a real manual but with vastly smoother shifts between gears.
The consumer knows what they want and spends their hard earned money buying it. If the consumer was clamoring for manuals manufacturers would be falling all over themselves making more manuals. We can either believe in private tests from CR or tests from the EPA. But in the end the results from the EPA will be posted on the window of the cars and trucks we buy not the results of CR.
Manuals have their place and many of the drivers in these forums more than likely can get the best out of them. But many of the posters on these forums are simply not numerous enough to effect the percentages of produced manuals verses Automatics. The R&D is going into Automatics and consumer is seeing the results. Shoot Nissan is now advertising the Maxima as a sports Sedan and what kind of transmission do they have?
EPA numbers overall favor manuals anyway, just not as much as CR.
Yeah, they do. I don't know if it is still true with current automatics, but in Europe the rule of thumb says: 'manuals yield better fuel economy than automatics'.
Regards,
Jose
That's true. Toyota especially should be ashamed of its shifters these days, but then they are on my short list of manufacturers that will be earliest to dump the manual altogether...
I was totally unimpressed with the shifters in the BMW 330i I tried out, and in the VW Rabbit. The one in the A3 was a little better, but still not great, and the one in the Mercedes C300 "Sport" I tried was worse. Honda, OTOH, is perhaps the last automaker left putting an effort into making great manuals. It shows in the quality of the shifts. (It's a good thing for them too, as their automatics are fragile to say the least). And the shifter in the Mini Cooper, well that's a goodie too! :-)
Subaru shifters tend to be in between, with good definition of the gates but a touch too much notchiness.
Regardless, I will still go with the manual over the automatic. You want to try out a shifter that is TOTALLY uninspiring some time, try out the one in my Matrix. The thing feels like it will break off in my hand if I try to hustle it through the gear change faster than it is comfortable with...and the rest of the time, "rubbery" is its middle name.
With all the other things conspiring to bring about the end of manuals as we know them, it doesn't help that automakers aren't spending the parts money to make them the best they can be. And here's where I call again for car designers to gear the manuals similarly to the automatics in performance, so that they can accomplish the LARGE fuel savings they are capable of if given the proper chance...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Its funny that you cited a manufacturer that hasn't had a real sports car since the 90s. I would argue..well not even argue, they are the worst of the important brands. I would say Honda, then Mazda (although the S2000 and Miata are both kind of in their own league) and then Subaru. I haven't driven a Mtisu stick recently, athough my 80s Galant was fine.
With dual-clutch transmissions getting better and better, within a few years we'll see DCT's that have the same fuel economy as a real manual but with vastly smoother shifts between gears.
Yup, in something that will cost more than an automatic so the general car buying public won't be so excited about it, and still wont be a real manual so the hold outs wont like it either. Sounds like a win win.
I am not sure but I believe Nippon can confirm the article I am talking about because I think he originally pointed it out to me in one of the small cars forums. It is conceivable that things will continue in the direction of fewer and fewer manuals if the Smart car is indeed an example of the new small cars we might see imported both from Europe and Asia.
Urban Asian markets are much like Europe with smaller roads, shorter commutes (Europeans actually might WALK to work, its just crazy) and for the most part, warmer climates, so battery vehicles do well there.
Not a bad solution to a perceived fuel problem. I could live with it. But still the US and Asia are both heading in an automatic direction. Only the Old world is holding out and that is as much because of a government sponsored financial break on drivers who drive manuals. Not going to happen here so without a subsidy and I don't see European vehicles gaining market share. So if Asia and the US go automatic that is two out of three of the biggest markets in the world.
? I have never heard of a financial break being given to drivers of manuals.
What are you referring to?
Neither do I. I adhere to your surprise. Manuals over here are sort of 'the usual way', the cheap tradition. But cheap as it might be, that tradition is not subsidized.
Regards,
Jose
Our 2002 Legacy's clutch was not so good, mostly due to non-linear throttle.
Oddly my 1998 Forester had a great clutch/throttle combo, so even within Subaru it varies.
My 93 Miata has the best clutch I've ever sampled. So fluid, so easy, so light. You could teach newbies it's so easy.
Still both the US and Asia are moving away from manuals and that is no longer even debatable.
On a brighter note there has been an agreement with the EU for a new all EU license and it will not have a transmission designation on it. It will be legal in all 110 of the signing nations. The segregated license may be vanishing as well.
It is a low-cost and niche transmission in the US at this point. So far, it has not adversely affected my life in a dramatic fashion. I have been able to drive a manual transmission vehicle since getting my license, and I don't think I will be forced to give it up in the near future.
Subaru Electric Micro-car
A stick shift Camry. Not an old one ether, an almost brand new one, current body style. My jaw dropped. I just about fell over.
Who was this bold human who would purchase the ultimate rolling couch and then insist on 3 pedals? I can only salute them, wherever they may be.
I guess it's not just a myth of the Toyota literature, designed to allow a lower base advertised price. They actually do build a few.
I bet it's less than 1 in 10,000 though...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You & Boaz, maybe.
It wouldn't surprise me if the recent panic over fuel prices improves manual transmission futures significantly, well beyond the 0.01% range.
Not that there'll ever be numbers to support either position -- wouldn't want to disturb any of these opinions with actual data.
When automakers stop selling stick shifts, my days of buying new cars will be over...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I had to special-order my last car to get the manual, then had to have my present car trucked in (dealer exchange) from Denver in order to get a manual (never mind the right color & no nav).
Most won't bother. It's hard (& more expensive) to buy what's not available.
Don't get me started on finding a diesel with a manual. . .
The one I saw was an '07, I'm pretty sure, based on the license plate.
I have always wondered how the 4-cylinder SE would be with the stick. Might it have most of the moves of the old Accord EX for less money? Alas, the one I saw yesterday was an LE snoozer with plastic wheel covers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But your statement stated that there is a government sponsored financial break for drivers of manuals. That is incorrect.
In the Camry's case, I think that Toyota is mostly making the manuals to get to a very low starting price to advertise, even though most people would never buy one. I enjoy manuals, and I also love that I am driving a larger, safer, more comfortable car at a purchase price that is the same or lower many automatic Civics or Corollas.
I still believe that with high fuel prices and the economy being bad, that more manual transmissions will be sold.
I remember finding a V6/5 speed Camry in 1995 or so when we ended up buying a 626 with a V6 and manual. The 626 was cheaper with more content, but I was happy to at least find a Toyota equipped as such.
It was nice to see Nissan start to make Altimas with the manual/V-6 combo. It was a step in the wrong direction to see Honda STOP doing it, except for coupes.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But then WRC cars are all automatics according to this forum. :P
Then again, they might. Straight cut gears whine like crazy.
In all the years I have been a enthusiast I have longed for a sequencial shifter for a car that was as good as what my motorcycles have had. I always thought that we, automotive enthusiasts, got the short end of the stick, no pun intended, when it came to transmissions. The modern manual is a oxymoron. It is a manual but not very modern. As performance drivers in the 60s and 70s we paid good money to buy shifters from companies like Hurst and other that made the gate so narrow you almost felt like you were pushing straight up and pulling straight back.
I always thought the transmission people would give us such shifters rather than sending us all off to the aftermarket people. But the manual transmission fell out of favor with the us buyer too fast and nothing much has changed. If you revived someone that had died in the 50s and put them in a manual from the 2000s they wouldn't notice much difference other than 5 of 6 speeds being standard. It isn't that the transmissions themselves aren't better than they were in the 50s it is the clutch. The connection between the driver and the engine hasn't changed much in all those years.
A few years ago I started seeing SMTs is race cars and my eyes got wide and my heart skipped a beat because I thought we would be getting such technological marvels in our own street cars. After all we could pretty much the same transmissions as the racers used in our street bikes so the technology should trickle down to the consumer I thought. But it hasn't happened.
If you remember it was people like you that directed me to watch the WRC cars to see what racing was like in the rest of the world. I still think of it a bit like an American watching soccer but I will admit there are times I can see the skill theses drivers have and the advantages dropping the third pedel in such applications have.
To be honest I am not sure I will ever see such transmissions in our domestic cars even if the new DCTs seem to offer that kind of promise. It seems as if our future will see hybrids in ever growing numbers and the need for any kind of manual slowly fading away. Sports cars will more than likely be the last bastion for the manual in the US but the economy and the environment could even effect that prediction.
Its cool to like sequential transmissions if they meet your needs and do what you wan them to do. I don't think anyone should judge what makes others happy, I hope you see your dream realized and you get some type of DCT/SMT trans to play with and complete your driving experience. I would also bet the aftermarket will figure out how to create new software (a shift kit, if you will) to change the characteristics of the shifts to make them WRC car harsh.
I would still rather control the powertrain the old fashion way, pushing the pedal to decouple the transmission and engine, select the next gear, and then re-unite them myself.
I used to like Carburetors rather than fuel injection because I could re-jet them myself to mach the performance of the car I was building. Unless I want to build a NASCAR that isn't going to happen anymore either. Not because it wasn't a good system but because they simply aren't offering them to the American consumer.
My conjectures aren't based on what I want to see happen but on what has been happening in the US and Asia. The manual transmission is no longer called a Standard transmission in American cars. Base transmission maybe, and maybe sports transmission but the DSG could even take that description away. Remember this isn't a forum on what transmission we like the best but rather what the future holds for the manual transmission.
Judging on where the auto industry is heading I still say it is not a bright future. Even fans of the manual transmission like Nippon suggest that some manufacturers will more than likely drop the manual from their line up. While that doesn't effect everyone it should point out where the industry is heading. Just don't assume for a minute I don't understand how you feel about manuals. It just may not matter. Just imagine if the US goes to hybrids in mass. May not happen but where will that leave the manual? Think about a US market full of EVs what then?
There'll always be some of us out here, and I'm betting there will continue to be at least a handful manufacturers who will continue to sell manuals in North America, since they're making them anyway for Europe.
But, gosh, I'll be shut out of the mass-produced stuff made for people who are too lazy (or stupid) to use directional signals, let alone a clutch. I'm really going to be disappointed not to be included in their cohort. Maybe the cars with manuals won't have self-parking, 11 onboard cameras, radar-controlled cruise and all the other stuff that renders a vehicle "cutting edge."
I'll gut it out.
AC Schnitzer shift knob
I vote yea.
Not sure everyone on this board can sympathize.
Bring on the gadgets! (or not)
Not sure everyone on this board can sympathize.
Bring on the gadgets! (or not)"
Apropreate cynicym. But lets be practical. A car is nothing more than a machine or a tool. It doesn't breath or feel pain or give loyalty. It doesn't even wag its tail when you get home. A car will run just as good for someone that jacks it as it will for its owner. There is nothing better or worse about how someone shifts that tool. Shumacher knows how to drive even if he doesn't have to depress the clutch. Loeb is no less a driver because he doesn't have to use a clutch. A police officer knows how to drive even if he never has to depress a clutch. Depressing a clutch doesn't make you a better driver. Gadgets do not detract from the usefulness of a tool. They might make it more complicated or even more expensive but they do not degrade the ability of society to use the tool.
In some cases gadgets make a tool better. Ask a F-16 pilot if he is less of a pilot than a Piper Cub pilot.
I'll grant that, as manual transmissions (& I) went from 3-on-the-tree to 4-on-the-floor to 5-speeds & on to 6-speeds, confusion could result -- the patterns weren't (& aren't) all the same. The previous poster made the excellent point that the tach is your friend. If you need to accelerate, the engine had better be at 2K or above (sometimes well above). The vast majority of cars with tachs are driven by people who might as well have a thermometer (or a photo of the family) in the space. Oh well. . .
The hidden secret is that if you know your vehicle well & watch the tach, you don't even need to use the clutch, so long as you're not trying to make extremely fast shifts. It's called knowing how to drive, not cynicism. Most don't. I had a slave cylinder on my last car pack up & drove the thing for several more days, without using the clutch at all, until I could get it to the dealer for repair. No AAA, no tow-truck, just drove it. Go figure.
Quite a few cars with slushboxes have tachs, which is, at best, amusing. The cohort that can't work a clutch probably doesn't know from tachs. I could be wrong. . .
Chances are the pilot enjoys flying both of them. Plenty of airline captains buzz around in small planes on their days off. The Piper Cub has a real stick in the cabin though, not a bunch of bat switches. :shades:
There must be some automatics or paddle shifters out there you'd enjoy driving as much as your favorite stick?
The vast majority of cars with tachs are driven by people who might as well have a thermometer (or a photo of the family) in the space
My friend's mom has a photo of her daughter over the tach in her Camry automatic!
And no, she doesn't know how to drive stick....
I was sitting at a light today, thinking that as long as there are cars available ONLY with a stick (Civic SI, etc) that sell well, the future of the manual can't be that bleak...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I would say that poorer fuel economy and slower acceleration (which are both the case is the case in the vast majority of vehicles) detract significantly from the usefulness.